The New Birth

[Vic C.]

Hi Jay,

I believe an in depth study of Romans will settle this justification by Faith issue. Ya think? ;-)

 

[Rick W]

Look at the 10 commandments or just about anything Christ spoke of and you'll see the focus on others or God the Father. Good works doesn't save you, good works does nothing for you but good works does profit others. Again, the focus is outward, on others, not inward, on self.
Once we begin to focus on self we've lost the very essence of the message. We must deny ourselves and become more like Him. The less self then more Him. Focusing on self leaves no room for Him to increase. To become more like Him we must become less of ourselves and that means getting that inward focus pointed in the other direction. If more Him then the works done aren't from ourselves, but from Him. We can take no credit or expect recompense. It's Him doing the works anyway.

 

[Catholic Crusader]

I believe an in depth study of Romans will settle this justification by Faith issue. Ya think? ;-)

Actually, to isolate one epistle from the rest of the New Testament will give you a skewed viewpoint, in my opinion.

Romans 5:1 is often cited in defense of the view that justification is a once for all declaration by God. Paul’s use of the aorist tense in Greek ("we have been justified") supposedly demonstrates that justification is exclusively a "past, completed act" which confers a state of justification unalterable by a subsequent act of the believer. Why won’t this argument work? Because the aorist doesn’t function the way the Reformed argument presupposes.

Although the Bible speaks in Romans 5:1 of justification as a "past, completed act," this doesn’t mean it can’t be altered, for better or worse, by what we do. To say an act has been completed needn’t imply that no further development or change is possible.

Consider the biblical teaching about sanctification. While protestants see justification and sanctification as two distinct things, Catholics see them as complementary ways of talking about the same thing: Being "in Christ". Paul speaks of sanctification as a "past, completed act"--in the aorist tense--in 1 Corinthians 6:11. He tells his readers, "You have been washed, you have been sanctified, you have been justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and in the Spirit of God." At the same time, Scripture teaches sanctification or holiness is something into which we can grow.

In 2 Corinthians 7:1 Paul says we should "purify ourselves from everything that contaminates body and spirit and strive for perfect holiness out of fear of God." The writer to the Hebrews exhorts us to consider our trials as discipline from our heavenly Father, "in order that we share his holiness" (Heb. 12:10). We’re advised to "strive for that sanctity without which no one will see the Lord" (Heb.12:14).

If sanctification means to make holy, then Christians are progressively sanctified or made holy as they strive, by the grace of God, to attain "that sanctity without which no one will see the Lord." Christians can also fall into sin and impurity--into "unsanctity." This is the point of Paul’s repeated warnings to believers not to return to the sinful lifestyles they left behind (1 Cor. 6:9-10; Gal. 5:16-21; Eph. 5:3-5):

"It is God’s will that you should be holy; that you should avoid sexual immorality; that each of you should learn to control his own body in a way that is holy and honorable, not in passionate lust like the heathen, who do not know God; and that in this matter no one should wrong his brother or take advantage of him. The Lord will punish men for all such sins, as we have already told you and warned you" (1 Thess. 4:3-7).

SANCTIFICATION, then, is both a "past, completed action" and something which believers can increase or from which they can fall away through sin. This leads us to ask, "If Paul’s use of the aorist with respect to sanctification doesn’t preclude progress or regress, why should it do so with respect to justification?" You may reply, "Because the gratuitousness of justification would be undone. If we could increase our justification or righteousness through our obedience, even through grace-empowered obedience, this would contradict Paul’s teaching that we’re 'justified by faith apart from works of the Law'" (Rom. 3:28).

This answer neglects three key points: (1) In Romans 3:28 Paul is speaking of initial justification rather than righteousness in the ongoing life of the believer; (2) when he speaks of the works of the Law, Paul is concerned with Mosaic observances such as circumcision, not acts of Christian obedience; (3) human cooperation doesn’t undermine the gratuitousness of God’s work in us, but can be an expression of it. Consider each point in turn.

OUR WORKS of obedience as Christians don’t earn our initial justification. How could they, since such deeds follow and flow from it? The Council of Trent says as much when it observes that "we are therefore said to be justified gratuitously, because none of those things that precede justification, whether faith or works, merit the grace of justification" (Session Six, Chapter VIII).

At the same time, works of Christian obedience contribute something if the term justification is used to refer not merely to our initial justification, but to our growth in righteousness as regenerated children of God. This is the justification to which James refers when he writes that "a man is justified by works and not by faith alone" (James 2:24).

When Paul contrasts faith with works, it’s clear from the context (Romans 3:1; 4:9-12) he means works of the Mosaic Law--ritual prescriptions such as circumcision given to identify one as a Jew, to convict of sin, and to point to the Redeemer who would remit sin. This is different from works of Christian obedience which lead to righteousness (Rom. 6:16). With respect to the latter, even faith itself can be spoken of as obedience (Rom. 1:5; 16:26).

If the gratuitousness of sanctification isn’t undermined by its capacity for increase through obedience or loss through disobedience, why should justification be? Only by assuming that justification is unalterable--an assumption grammatical arguments about the aorist tense will not uphold--could we conclude that increasing or decreasing in justification is, per se, incompatible with justification by grace.

Works of obedience which contribute to our sanctification are as much the result of grace as is our faith. This is why Paul can say, "Work out your salvation with fear and trembling, for it is God who works in you both to will and to work" (Phil. 2:12). As Augustine puts it, "When God rewards our merits, he rewards his own gifts to us."

ALTHOUGH sanctification is a more dramatic refutation of the Reformed position regarding justification and the aorist tense, there are other biblical examples which could be cited, each equally deadly to the thesis. Space doesn’t permit us to examine each of these; let’s consider just two poignant cases.

In John 11:14 Jesus tells his disciples Lazarus has died. The word used in this passage is apethanen--the third person, singular, second aorist active, indicative form of apothnesko ("I die"). Lazarus’s death was certainly a "past, completed act," yet his condition wasn’t unalterable. After all, Jesus raised him from the dead (John 11:43-44).

Peter 2:20 mentions lapsed Christians who, "having escaped the defilement of the world through a full knowledge of the Lord and savior Jesus Christ," return to their old sinful ways. The word for "having escaped" is apophugontes. This is the second aorist, active, participial, nominative, plural, masculine form of apopheugo ("I flee from" or "I escape"). If use of the aorist automatically means an unchangeable "past, completed act," then those having lapsed would have been incapable of falling away at all. A "past, completed act"--in this case, having "escaped the defilement of the world"--is changed by subsequent apostasy. JayR contends these "lapsi" were never truly Christians in the first place. Yet the text indicates otherwise, for it describes these people as having "escaped the defilement of the world through a full knowledge of the Lord and savior Jesus Christ." Surely only true believers could be described as possessing "a full knowledge of the Lord and savior Jesus Christ."

Even granting (but not conceding) that Peter isn’t talking about authentic believers who have lapsed, the grammatical point regarding the use of the aorist in the passage still stands. People who once escaped the defilement of the world, regardless of whether this means they were true Christians or not, are said to have returned to it. There’s nothing in the aorist tense which prevents them from having done so.

BACK TO Romans 5:1. Even though Paul refers to believers as those who "have been justified through faith," his use of the aorist doesn’t rule out a change in the state of justification by subsequent behavior, any more than other biblical uses of the aorist preclude a "past, completed" state of affairs from being altered by subsequent events.

Nothing we do as believers after our initial justification can change the fact that "we have been justified through faith" at some time in the past, but this doesn’t mean we can’t our alter justification in the present, whether by increasing it through "working out" our salvation (Phil. 2:12) or by forfeiting it through sin (1 Cor. 6:7-10; Gal. 5:21; Eph. 5:1-5).

 

[Catholic Crusader]

Look at the 10 commandments or just about anything Christ spoke of and you'll see the focus on others or God the Father. Good works doesn't save you, good works does nothing for you

Are you sure? There is a "work" Jesus says you must do or you will not have your sins forgiven.

Matthew 6:12: ...and forgive us our trespasses, as we forgive those who trespass against us...

Matthew 6:14-15: ...for if ye forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you: But if ye forgive not men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses....

Here, according to Jesus, we must forgive others in order to be forgiven, and since to do so is an act of the will on our part, its fair to say that this is a "work" that is necessary for salvation.

 

[JayR]

Catholic are you earning your salvation by your works?

 

[biblecatholic]

Catholic are you earning your salvation by your works?

It's not simplistic. Salvation is grace alone... through faith working in Love...

 

[JayR]

Yes or no.

 

[Catholic Crusader]

...Salvation is grace alone... through faith working in Love...

Simple and Correct.

 

[biblecatholic]

Yes or no.

I answered in what I believe. You can set terms for your belief system with a yes or no but my answer is as stated.

 

[Vic C.]

Actually, to isolate one epistle from the rest of the New Testament will give you a skewed viewpoint, in my opinion.

I'll keep that in mind for future reference. Fair enough though; I'll add Galatians, Ephesians and Philippians to the list. I'll even go as far as saying Grace was active even in the OT. One more thing, doctrine shouldn't be based on one's opinion. :wink:

 

[Vic C.]

Are you sure? There is a "work" Jesus says you must do or you will not have your sins forgiven.

Matthew 6:12: ...and forgive us our trespasses, as we forgive those who trespass against us...

Matthew 6:14-15: ...for if ye forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you: But if ye forgive not men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses....

Here, according to Jesus, we must forgive others in order to be forgiven, and since to do so is an act of the will on our part, its fair to say that this is a "work" that is necessary for salvation.

Yeah, I'm sure Potluck is sure about that, so...

How do we reconcile "your" passage against this one?

Mat 12:31 Wherefore I say unto you, All manner of sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven unto men: but the blasphemy against the Holy Ghost shall not be forgiven unto men.
Mat 12:32 And whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, neither in the world to come.

What's that? All manner of sin?

 

[Catholic Crusader]

[quote="Catholic Crusader":2aeee]Are you sure? There is a "work" Jesus says you must do or you will not have your sins forgiven.
Matthew 6:12: ...and forgive us our trespasses, as we forgive those who trespass against us...
Matthew 6:14-15: ...for if ye forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you: But if ye forgive not men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses....
Here, according to Jesus, we must forgive others in order to be forgiven, and since to do so is an act of the will on our part, its fair to say that this is a "work" that is necessary for salvation.

Yeah, I'm sure Potluck is sure about that, so...
How do we reconcile "your" passage against this one?
Mat 12:31 Wherefore I say unto you, All manner of sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven unto men: but the blasphemy against the Holy Ghost shall not be forgiven unto men.
Mat 12:32 And whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, neither in the world to come. What's that? All manner of sin?[/quote:2aeee]
Easy. All manner of sin will be forgiven if you do what Christ said you must do.

As for "whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost", my understanding is that this refers to an obstinate refusal to accept Christ. Which means one does not even seek forgiveness.

 

[biblecatholic]

[quote="Catholic Crusader":19c0c]Are you sure? There is a "work" Jesus says you must do or you will not have your sins forgiven.

Matthew 6:12: ...and forgive us our trespasses, as we forgive those who trespass against us...

Matthew 6:14-15: ...for if ye forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you: But if ye forgive not men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses....

Here, according to Jesus, we must forgive others in order to be forgiven, and since to do so is an act of the will on our part, its fair to say that this is a "work" that is necessary for salvation.

Yeah, I'm sure Potluck is sure about that, so...

How do we reconcile "your" passage against this one?

Mat 12:31 Wherefore I say unto you, All manner of sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven unto men: but the blasphemy against the Holy Ghost shall not be forgiven unto men.
Mat 12:32 And whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, neither in the world to come.

What's that? All manner of sin?[/quote:19c0c]

Hey Vic,

I know this wasn't directed at me but I wanted to throw this out. I think the standard of judgment you placed on others will be how you are judged. So we must forgive to be forgiven or at least repentant because you haven't yet forgiven... All manner of sin will be forgiven if you ask for that forgiveness....

And the sin against the Holy SPirit pertains to those who believe their sin is to big for God to forgive.... but He'll forgive that once they ask

Blessings

 

[JayR]

"By grace you are saved through faith, and that not of yourselves, it is a gift of God, not of works, lest any man should boast."

Notice how He doesn't say by grace you are saved through faith working in love, but, By grace you are saved through faith... not of works. You catholics seem to be claiming to believe salvation by grace but then you turn around and throw works into the picture without understanding the relationship between true faith and works. True saving faith by nature and by definition as taught in James chapter 2 comes with works. Faith without works is dead, not because we are saved by works, but because the lack of works proves that such a profession of faith isn't true and from God. The works aren't what justify us, they are what show that our faith is true saving faith. According to your belief, a man dying in the wilderness who hears the gospel and doesn't have the opportunity to work out his salvation is going to be damned. When you tag on "...grace by faith working in love..." you damn such people. No. If a man has true genuine faith in the blood of Jesus Christ, he is justified. Period. Evidence that he truly believes in Jesus Christ will be manifest to the degree that he obeys Him, but faith is what justifies us. Trust and obey, as the Father commands, is what we are to do, but no man earns his own salvation by obeying. If you obey and don't know Jesus Christ, you are damned. If you claim to believe and you don't obey, your faith is dead. If you truly know and have faith in Jesus Christ, you are going to obey, but every act of obedience is accomplished solely because God gave you the ability to obey by grace. Did the theif on the cross work in love for his salvation? No. He believed in Jesus Christ, and was therefore justified by the blood of Christ.

 

[Catholic Crusader]

"By grace you are saved through faith, and that not of yourselves, it is a gift of God, not of works, lest any man should boast."

1) It says "faith", not "faith alone"
2) In context, those "works" refer to the Torah. Paul is a Jew, and the word for "Law" is "Torah", so works of the law means works of the Torah. And I agree: We are not saved by works of the Torah. But the works Christ commanded us to do ARE neccessary for salvation.

 

[Vic C.]

Easy. All manner of sin will be forgiven if you do what Christ said you must do.

As for "whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost", my understanding is that this refers to an obstinate refusal to accept Christ. Which means one does not even seek forgiveness.

Interesting. I don't see that in the passage in any of my Bibles. I don't even see it in the larger context of the passage.

 

[biblecatholic]

"By grace you are saved through faith, and that not of yourselves, it is a gift of God, not of works, lest any man should boast."

you can't just ignore all the other verses on salvation and say this and only this is what the bible says...... plus he's talking about works of the law...

According to your belief, a man dying in the wilderness who hears the gospel and doesn't have the opportunity to work out his salvation is going to be damned. When you tag on "...grace by faith working in love..." you damn such people.

No because faith is a work and an act of Love

If you truly know and have faith in Jesus Christ, you are going to obey,

so I guess no one "truly knows, or has faith in Christ" since we do not always obey?

Did the theif on the cross work in love for his salvation?

yes he did...that was an act of Love

 

[JayR]

No because faith is a work and an act of Love

Not at all. Faith is a gift from God, not a work of man. We aren't saved by our own capacity to believe, if we were, then we could boast in heaven that we believed more than others. God gives us our faith and to degrees according to His will, not ours. Faith is a fruit of the Spirit, not a fruit of spiritually dead men.

"For I say, through the grace given unto me, to every man that is among you, not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think; but to think soberly, according as God hath dealt to every man the measure of faith."

"But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith..."

"For it has been granted to you that for the sake of Christ you should not only believe in him but also suffer for his sake..."

so I guess no one "truly knows, or has faith in Christ" since we do not always obey?

I didn't say that. If you know God, you will be just as assured or more so as you would be assured that you just had an encounter with a bus going 120 M.P.H. We are talking about the Creator of the universe coming and living inside of you. That isn't something you are oblivious of.

But the works Christ commanded us to do ARE neccessary for salvation.

Then the thief on the cross was damned and deathbed conversions are impossible. Repentance and faith my friend. Faith by nature will generate obedience, but we are justified by faith.

 

[Catholic Crusader]

Interesting. I don't see that in the passage in any of my Bibles. I don't even see it in the larger context of the passage.

Hmmmm. Then perhaps I misunderstood your question.

 

[Drew]

"By grace you are saved through faith, and that not of yourselves, it is a gift of God, not of works, lest any man should boast."

Notice how He doesn't say by grace you are saved through faith working in love, but, By grace you are saved through faith... not of works. You catholics seem to be claiming to believe salvation by grace but then you turn around and throw works into the picture without understanding the relationship between true faith and works.

Paul is not teaching against salvation by "good works" here, he is teaching against the belief that one can be saved by performing the works of Torah - and especially those ones that mark out the Jew from his pagan neighbour.

One cannot simply assume that when Paul refers to "works" he intends us to understand this as "good works". Given the context in which Paul lived - a Jew immersed in Torah - he could instead be referring the "works" of Torah. And the context of Ephesians 2 shows that this is indeed the case. One has to read Paul properly. The fact that he makes the kind of "therefore" argument that he does make shows that it is Torah that is in view here. If Paul actually meant "good works", then the "therefore" argument which begins in verse 11 (reproduced below) makes no sense at all:

Therefore, remember that formerly you who are Gentiles by birth and called "uncircumcised" by those who call themselves "the circumcision" (that done in the body by the hands of men) 12remember that at that time you were separate from Christ, excluded from citizenship in Israel and foreigners to the covenants of the promise, without hope and without God in the world. 13But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far away have been brought near through the blood of Christ.
14For he himself is our peace, who has made the two one and has destroyed the barrier, the dividing wall of hostility, 15by abolishing in his flesh the law with its commandments and regulations. His purpose was to create in himself one new man out of the two, thus making peace, 16and in this one body to reconcile both of them to God through the cross, by which he put to death their hostility. 17He came and preached peace to you who were far away and peace to those who were near. 18For through him we both have access to the Father by one Spirit

This material is all about the Jew-Gentile divide - and that is demarcated by Torah, not by the "doing of good works".

This is the big problem with the reformed reading of "works". It requires us to scratch our heads and ask the following question: "Why is it that when Paul refers to "works" (taken as "good works"), it always appear in a context where the Jew-Gentile issue is in view?"

The answer is not to effectively assume that Paul is a sloppy wandering writer, it is to step back and realize that when Paul refers to "works" he is indeed referring to something that makes perfect sense in such contexts - namely Torah (the law of Moses).