The New Birth

[Catholic Crusader]

I know you don't believe that I was being sarcastic...sorry. But you do give him more authority over scripture than any man deserves...

I guess I would simply say that whatever authority Peter had, we think the pope has. Peter was a man, the pope is a man. Peter was a sinner, the pope is a sinner. But God used Peter in a special way, and I believe God uses the pope in the same way. No more, no less.

 

[JayR]

"Then Jesus spoke to the multitudes and to His disciples, 2 saying: “The scribes and the Pharisees sit in Moses’ seat. 3 Therefore whatever they tell you to observe,[a]that observe and do, but do not do according to their works; for they say, and do not do. 4 For they bind heavy burdens, hard to bear, and lay them on men’s shoulders; but they themselves will not move them with one of their fingers. 5 But all their works they do to be seen by men. They make their phylacteries broad and enlarge the borders of their garments. 6 They love the best places at feasts, the best seats in the synagogues, 7 greetings in the marketplaces, and to be called by men, ‘Rabbi, Rabbi.’ 8 But you, do not be called ‘Rabbi’; for One is your Teacher, the Christ, and you are all brethren. 9 Do not call anyone on earth your father; for One is your Father, He who is in heaven. 10 And do not be called teachers; for One is your Teacher, the Christ. 11 But he who is greatest among you shall be your servant. 12 And whoever exalts himself will be humbled, and he who humbles himself will be exalted."

The context is talking about ministers and specifically not to call them father. Your church blatantly transgresses that on a daily basis.

 

[Catholic Crusader]

Read the next verse Jesus said, "That which is born of the flesh is flesh and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit." John 3:6. He was not referring to literal water, but, the need for cleansing, when used in connection to the spirit....

I believe baptism to truly be regenerative. It removes the stain of original sin and infuses sanctifying grace into the soul. Eastern Orthodox and many mainline Protestants think likewise I might add.

I think you are saying baptism is merely a sign that one has "accepted Christ as Lord and Savior" and therefore has become a Christian. It is the acceptance that matters. Undergoing baptism indicates to Christians that you are now one of them, but you would be one of them even if you never were baptized. I understand that Fundamentalists and Evangelicals call baptism an ordinance, a practice that Christ ordered his Church to perform, even though it does not effect a real change in the recipient.

This understanding leads to scriptural difficulties. Consider this: "He saved us . . . by the washing of regeneration and renewal in the Holy Spirit . . . so that we might be justified by his grace" (Titus 3:5–7). This "washing of regeneration" is baptism. It actually does something to us. It regenerates, says Scripture.

The conjunction of water and the Holy Spirit brings us to John 3:5: "Unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God." The Catholic Church understands this combination to represent the water of baptism that brings to us the Holy Spirit, which is to say his grace. I take it that, in avoiding the plain sense, you are saying that Christians misunderstood this verse from the earliest years right up to the Reformation. Instead of "water and the Spirit" being read as a unit (baptism), they should be read independently: water (baptism) and the Holy Spirit (accepting Christ as Lord as Savior). Only the second is functional; the former is decorativeâ€â€commanded by Christ but nevertheless not really doing anything to the recipient.

Turn to Acts 2:38, where Peter says, "Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit." Notice the sequence: First comes repentance; then comes baptismâ€â€which effects the forgiveness of sinsâ€â€and then, as a consequence of that forgiveness and therefore of baptism, comes the gift (the grace) of the Holy Spirit. This verse makes sense only if it is understood as saying that baptism is not a mere symbol. If baptism were just an ordinance and not a sacrament, why would Peter bother to include it in his instruction?

Peter, the head of the apostles, is supported by Paul, who said to the Corinthians that "you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified" (1 Cor. 6:11). By washed he was not referring to the Corinthians’ bathing practices, because sanctification and justification are not dependent on hygienic practices. The verb meant that they had been baptized, and it was their baptism that brought them, for the first time, a state of sanctification and justification. Baptism changed them internally, spiritually, as it changes us

 

[JayR]

"He saved us . . . by the washing of regeneration and renewal in the Holy Spirit . . . so that we might be justified by his grace" (Titus 3:5–7). This "washing of regeneration" is baptism.

Not at all. Baptism isn't mentioned at all in this passage, that is you smashing your own concept into the word washing. The phrase, "...washing of regeneration and renewal in the Holy Spirit..." is talking about the washing and cleansing of sin that occurs when you recieve the Holy Spirit, when you put off the old man and put on the new. It has nothing to do with water baptism. Not at all.

The conjunction of water and the Holy Spirit brings us to John 3:5: "Unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God."

Jesus once again isn't speaking of water baptism in this passage. He is talking about the physical birth, born of water, and then the spiritual birth, born of the Spirit. He is correcting Nicodemus who thought that you had to be born twice out of your mother's womb. Jesus says, No, you must be born physically, and then born spiritually, not physically twice. If Jesus was talking about the absolute necessity of water baptism as well as spiritual baptism, such an absolute which is found in the word "cannot" then the Scriptures were broken when the thief on the cross recieved salvation. He wasn't baptized by water, and yet, according to you, unless one is baptized by water, he cannot see the kingdom of God. So either Jesus lied, the Scriptures were broken, or you are misinterpreting the text. Jesus can't lie, the Scriptures can't be broken, and therefore, you are misinterpreting the text.

If baptism were just an ordinance and not a sacrament, why would Peter bother to include it in his instruction?

You are taking this particular historical circumstance and teaching it as an absolute when there are other circumstances in the same book that clearly teach that you recieve the Holy Spirit before you are baptized.

First off, look at the word repent. Can a dead man make a decision that he isn't going to be dead anymore? Can he have a change of heart and think to himself, "Ya know, I think I'm going to start to live today..." No. Unconverted men are dead in trespasses and sins and are literally in bondage to sin and taken captive by the devil at his will. They couldn't repent if they tried. Esau sought repentance with tears and didn't find it. Judas sought repentance and didn't find it. Why is that? Because repentance is God-given. Repentance isn't a dead man picking himself up with his dead hand by his bootstraps and deciding to live again, it is a gift from God.

"Him God has exalted to His right hand to be Prince and Savior, to give repentance to Israel and forgiveness of sins."

"When they heard these things they became silent; and they glorified God, saying, “Then God has also granted to the Gentiles repentance to life.â€Â

"...in humility correcting those who are in opposition, if God perhaps will grant them repentance, so that they may know the truth..."

So if God decided to grant these men repentance unto life, then He is also going to grant them faith, and upon believing is when you are sealed by the Spirit. Also if a God grants a man repentance, then the Holy Spirit is already at work in him.

"In whom you also trusted, after that you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that you believed, you were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise."

Notice how he says after you believed, you were sealed with the holy Spirit of promise, not after you were baptized. Once God grants a man repentance and faith, He then seals Him with the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit doesn't automatically come down upon water baptism. God may have ordered it to work that way in that one particular moment in history when Peter gave His sermon, but it is by no means the absolute norm. Men in the book of Acts laid their hands on men and they recieved the Spirit. The Spirit was given to men before they were baptized. You are taking a verse from historical narrative and stating it as the absolute norm and teaching heresy as a result, while at the same time ignoring other places in the narritive where the Spirit comes in different ways.

Peter is combining what Jesus commanded him to teach by telling them to repent and be baptized as converts into the faith, he isn't necessarily giving a chronological order as an absolute and how it works every time. You can't take one verse in a historical narrative and say that this is how God works every time, especially in light of the fact that in the same book God grants the Holy Spirit to people before water baptism.

""you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified" (1 Cor. 6:11)"

By washing once again he isn't talking about water baptism. He is talking about the washing of regeneration which is done by the Holy Spirit to cleanse us of our sins. You are taking the word wash literally as if the water was the entity that was taking away our sin. The Holy Spirit is what washes us in regeneration, not water, and we have established that He comes not always only after and upon baptism, but at different times and in different ways according to God's will. God isn't in your box and definition because you want to take a verse from historical narrative and decide it is going to be the absolute norm.

 

[A-Christian]

The gates of hell have slaughtered the catholic church. That's why the church is full of ministers who molest children. Call it a slur if you like, but it's true. That's also why the church is full of idolatry and heresy, teaching traditions of men as the commandments of God, and making void the commandments of God.

You don't think that human failings exist in other Christian groups?

 

[JayR]

I believe and am sure that there are hypocrites in every denomination in this country. I was just dispelling the lie that Catholic Crusader seemed to believe that the catholic church is exactly what that text was talking about, when in reality the church isn't a denomination, a religious orginization, or a building with a particular name on the sign in the front, but a body of believers who are born of the Spirit of God, and the gates of hell won't prevail against it.

 

[A-Christian]

Thanks for clarifying. For a moment I thought that you thought that the abuse problems by Catholic clergy were restricted predominately to the Catholic Church.
I did a google search using the words "pastor indicted" as well as "pastor raped" and let me just say the the results show that human sin knows no bounds.

 

[Catholic Crusader]

......... I was just dispelling the lie that Catholic Crusader seemed to believe that the catholic church is exactly what that text was talking about.....

...I believe, and 1.2 billion of my brothers and sisters in Christ also believe - almost 1/6 of the world's population. You can never dispel that which Christ established.

But back to baptism. I shall quote some early Christians:

Hermas:
" 'I have heard, sir,' said I, 'from some teacher, that there is no other repentance except that which took place when we went down into the water and obtained the remission of our former sins.' He said to me, 'You have heard rightly, for so it is'<|>" (The Shepherd 4:3:1-2 [A.D. 140]).

Theophilus:
"Moreover, those things which were created from the waters were blessed by God, so that this might also be a sign that men would at a future time receive repentance and remission of sins through water and the bath of regeneration--all who proceed to the truth and are born again and receive a blessing from God" (To Autolycus 12:16 [A.D. 181]).

Justin Martyr:
"Whoever are convinced and believe that what they are taught and told by us is the truth, and professes to be able to live accordingly, is instructed to pray and to beseech God in fasting for the remission of their former sins, while we pray and fast with them. Then they are led by us to a place where there is water, and they are reborn in the same kind of rebirth in which we ourselves were reborn: In the name of God, the Lord and Father of all, and of our Savior Jesus Christ, and of the Holy Spirit, they receive the washing of water. For Christ said, 'Unless you be reborn, you shall not enter the kingdom of heaven.'...The reason for doing this, we have learned from the Apostles" (The First Apology 61:14-17 [inter A.D. 148-155]).

Clement of Alexandria
"When we are baptized we are enlightened. Being enlightened, we are adopted as sons. Adopted as sons, we are made perfect. Made perfect, we become immortal... 'and sons of the Most High' [Ps. 81:6]. This work is variously called grace, illumination, perfection, and washing. It is a washing by which we are cleansed of sins, a gift of grace by which the punishments due our sins are remitted, an illumination by which we behold that holy light of salvation--that is, by which we see God clearly, and we call that perfection which leaves nothing lacking. Indeed, if a man know God, what more does he need? Certainly, it were out of place to call that which is not complete a true gift of God's grace. Because God is perfect the gifts he bestows are perfect" (The Instructor of Children, 1:6:26:1 [ante A.D. 202]).

 

[JayR]

Early Christians can be wrong in their theology.

Why don't you address what I said rather than stating what you already said before?

You're in for a wake up call Catholic, because on Judgment Day when you see millions of Catholics thrown into hell, you are going to realize that that passage wasn't talking solely about your particular church group, it was talking about a body of believers, not a building or one particular religious organization.

 

[A-Christian]

You're in for a wake up call Catholic, because on Judgment Day when you see millions of Catholics thrown into hell, you are going to realize that that passage wasn't talking solely about your particular church group, it was talking about a body of believers, not a building or one particular religious organization.

You should not be judging JayR.

 

[JayR]

Thats a Scriptural reality my friend, not a judgment. There will be tares among the wheat of any denomination, let alone millions of professing converts of one particular church group.

 

[A-Christian]

Do you attend worship services anywhere JayR? If so, what Christain sect does your group align themselves with or what does the sign outside the building say?

 

[JayR]

Yes I do, I go to a Presbyterian church, but I don't hold to any particular denomination. I'm a Christian, not a Presbyterian, and I'm probably going to be moving soon and joining a Baptist church, and yes, I realize that what I said goes for the denomination I happen to be a part of as well.

 

[Vic C.]

In case we've forgotten, this is the topic... New Birth.

"A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will takw away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh. And I will put my Spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments and do them." Ezekiel 36:26,27.

We are born sinners and in need of redemption. God robed Himself with flesh in the Lord Jesus Christ, who came to bare away our sin.

He gives us a new heart, a new spirit and puts His Spirit within us, enabling us by His Holy Spirit of Grace (Heb 10:29) to walk with Him in holiness. He "causes us" to walk in His Word - His law.

"I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh, I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me and gave Himself for me." Galatians 2:20.

The old man of sin was crucified with Christ, so that we may walk in newness of life. When His Spirit lives within us, we are empowered by His Spirit to obey His Word - His law.

The mark of false religion is the idea of earning our own salvation, through our own works. "...the plowing of the wicked is sin." Proverbs 21:4. As long as we are in bondage to sin, it is impossible to earn our own salvation.

Jesus said, "Not every one that saith, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the Kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father, which is in heaven.

MANY will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? And in thy name have cast out devils? And in thy name done many wonderful works?

And then will I profess unto them, I NEVER KNEW YOU: depart from me, ye that work iniquity." (lawlessness) Matthew 7:21-23.

Jesus said, "Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the Kingdom of God." John 3:3.

When we are born of His Spirit, we become children of God, having His life within us. And our Father knows us, because, we are His children. And we know Him - "And I will give them an heart to know me, that I AM the Lord..." Jeremiah 24:7.

We are incapable of earning our own salvation, because, we are sinners. It is by putting our faith in the works of the sinless Lamb of God - the Lord Jesus Christ, that, we are brought into His Kingdom.

First, we must agree with God, that, we are sinners. Then, we must believe, that, Jesus bore our sin away. Finally, we receive Him as our Lord, inviting His Spirit to live within us.

This brings us to eternal life, and we will live with Him in His Kingdom forever!

 

[Catholic Crusader]

MANY will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? And in thy name have cast out devils? And in thy name done many wonderful works?

And then will I profess unto them, I NEVER KNEW YOU: depart from me, ye that work iniquity." (lawlessness) Matthew 7:21-23.

I believe you forgot to mention something:

Matt 25:34-40:
Then the King will say to those on His right, 'Come, you who are blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world. For I was hungry, and you gave Me something to eat; I was thirsty, and you gave Me something to drink; I was a stranger, and you invited Me in; naked, and you clothed Me; I was sick, and you visited Me; I was in prison, and you came to Me.' Then the righteous will answer Him, 'Lord, when did we see You hungry, and feed You, or thirsty, and give You something to drink? And when did we see You a stranger, and invite You in, or naked, and clothe You? When did we see You sick, or in prison, and come to You?' The King will answer and say to them, 'Truly I say to you, to the extent that you did it to one of these brothers of Mine, even the least of them, you did it to Me.'

So, those who did good works in keeping with Christs commandment to love thy neighbor as thyself are the ones who are saved. And this fits with the scriptures:

Galatians 5:6: For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision means anything, but faith working through love.

James 2: 24: You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone.

 

[JayR]

James 2: 24: You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone.

Don't ignore the previous arguments so that you misunderstand what he is saying. He is talking about how if you truly have faith, then you aren't going to sit in a pew passively simply believing and doing nothing. If you do that, then you don't have real faith. Someone who has real faith will believe to the point that his outward actions will conform to his inward beliefs. If he believes God when He says that he is a rewarder of those who seek Him, and yet doesn't seek Him, then it shows how little his faith really is, because if he truly believed that, then he would commit himself to seeking God and demonstrate his faith by his works. He isn't saying that by works you are saved, he is saying that true faith isn't passive, but actively through works takes that which it believes in and accomplishes it. If God tells you that He is going to make a nation out of you, and you truly believe Him, and He then tells you to sacrifice your only son, if you believe to the point of raising the knife to kill the only son you have then your faith is made perfect by the work you accomplished that demonstrated how great your faith really is, because you believed His promise even to the point of killing your only son who is the only one who can continue your seed.

"By grace you are saved through faith, and that not of yourselves, it is a gift of God, not of works, lest any man should boast."

The works we do have been ordained by God for us to complete, and they are only completed because God by His grace imparts to us the ability to believe in Him and complete them according to His will. We aren't saved by the works, we are saved by grace, and God requires and commands that we do things in this life, but we don't accomplish those things by our own power, God in His grace gives us the power to accomplish them, so that all will be to His glory in the end, and so that no man can boast. No good work done by any Christian is done by His own power, it is done solely by the grace of God given to him through the Holy Spirit. "Apart from me, you can do nothing."

 

[Catholic Crusader]

"By grace you are saved through faith, and that not of yourselves, it is a gift of God, not of works, lest any man should boast."

Faith? Yes. Faith alone? No. There is only one place in the whole Bible where the two words "faith alone" stand side by side:
James 2: 24: You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone.

 

[JayR]

You don't understand that passage. He isn't saying that we earn salvation by works, He is saying that without works faith is proven not to be true faith. If someone has true faith, then just as a mustard seed is planted and naturally becomes a massive tree, so will true faith be manifest in the works that one accomplishes through it. But if someone makes a professions to have the seed, and no tree grows as a result, then that is evidence that the seed they claimed to have was dead.

You can't be saved by works and not be saved by works at the same time. You don't understand what that passage means.

 

[JayR]

He is saying that faith is made perfect by works, because works prove that faith is genuine. Faith is the entity through which God saves us by grace, but without works of faith that faith one professes to have is dead.

"Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works? Nay: but by the law of faith."

Catholic, if you think you are earning your own salvation by your works, you are proud, self-righteous, and if you remain in that state, you will be damned.

 

[JayR]

It's a package deal. Genuine saving faith naturally comes with works, and faith without works is dead. The works don't save us, they just prove that the faith is genuine, and naturally then we aren't justified by faith only, because by the very nature of faith works come with it, but it isn't the works that justify us, it is the faith, the works just show us that the faith is genuine. Works are the manifestation of true faith. But without works, we aren't justified, because that is evidence that the faith isn't genuine, and so it can be said that we are justified by works of faith, not because of the works themselves, but because those works of faith prove the presence of what we are saved through, which is faith.