THE NEW MAN

[mondar]

Sorry mondar, you have missed the truth of these scriptures. The flesh "body of sin" is a fact. Thus we have ALL the scriptures that relate to this struggle. The New Man is a fact, in spirit we are a New creation. Now the battle is a real one! This is why Pauls spends so much effort on teaching us to no longer depend upon the flesh, but to renew our minds to what is true in us, and us In Christ.

Mitspa, your reply was quite disappointing. You quote certain phrases from the text, and say "it is a fact," that demonstrates how little you understood of what I wrote. You did not even begin to correctly repeat what I said. I recognize that I did not explain much and some of the responsibility for your lack of understanding is mine, but your response seemed arrogant and also lacking knowledge of not only what I was saying, but lacking knowledge of the slavery issues in Romans 6:6 (and also later in verse 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 22) that I was talking about.

 

[ezra]

I did not say I would get stirred but that I did not want to upset you as in the past. Here you have described a grace that goes beyond just divine favor. A grace that teaches. As I was saying before the term "grace" is used for many aspects of Gods work on our behalf. That was my point.
Now as far as my knowledge of the truth of scripture, you knew very well when you posted on this thread, that you would hear my views and I would be very bold in the way that I set them forth. So if I am the teacher with the hearing aid? You are guy who keeps getting set to the principles office, for disturbing the class. lol

my point was on the teacher she didnt have the perfect hearing she thought she did... nor are you the skilled theologian you think you are............ no doubt you know your Bible so do i .. if i dont use the word Grace and i use Holy Spirit don,t tweak out and think you need to correct me . if one wants get technical the Bible says its the spirit that quickens that gives us the power. no place does it say the grace gives you power.... one would have to be a fool to not know that Grace is a great thing . for w/o it we would not be saved . but then again you have those who say faith saved them.......> Grace saved us Faith is what we have to accept the saving grace......so at that this rowdy student as you seem to think... knows more than what you think i do.... in the words to a song if you dont mind thank you...

 

[mondar]

I wanted to bring this forward because I think it relates to what I am trying to teach? The fact that the "old man" fallen man in the Adamic nature, whats to hide his sinful condition from the light of truth, is seen thoughout scripture. The key to overcome the sin of the flesh, is to be in complete dependance upon the grace of God for righteousness. actually one would learn to reckon themselves dead indeed to sin, if they understood who they are in spirit. The ability to be honest with God at all times about any weakness is the key to overcome.
It is only when attempt to cover our shame with fig-leaves of self-righteousness do we hinder the grace and mercy of God in our lives.

The old man is certainly related to the Adamic nature, but it is not the same thing. As I have been saying, your understanding of the term "old man" does not recognize the slavery imagery of Romans 6. While we have an old nature, we do not have the old man. The old man was crucified with Christ. If I switch texts....
Col 3:9 lie not one to another; seeing that ye have put off the old man with his doings,
Col 3:10 and have put on the new man, that is being renewed unto knowledge after the image of him that created him:
The tense of the Colossians reference (Aorist) demonstrates that the putting off of the old man is an accomplished fact.
Now this does not mean there is no struggle. In fact, only because we are free of the old man, and the old man is dead, only for that reason will the struggle happen.

 

[Mitspa]

Mitspa, your reply was quite disappointing. You quote certain phrases from the text, and say "it is a fact," that demonstrates how little you understood of what I wrote. You did not even begin to correctly repeat what I said. I recognize that I did not explain much and some of the responsibility for your lack of understanding is mine, but your response seemed arrogant and also lacking knowledge of not only what I was saying, but lacking knowledge of the slavery issues in Romans 6:6 (and also later in verse 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 22) that I was talking about.

Well if you feel you have been not been understood? I would listen to any explaination you have to make on your position.

It is a proven biblical fact that the flesh and spirit in the believer is in a condition of conflict.
As far as your opinion of my arrogance or my ability to understand, this is of no importance to me. What I have put forth on this thread, I was taught by the Spirit of God. Many would call those who preach the gospel arrogant, we are bold in Christ and we use bold speech in His ability, not our own.

So yes, I am very bold in the truth. The righteous are bold as lions, but the wicked flee when no one pursues.

So please, bring forth a clear doctrine that can be judged, and maybe we will have more in common than you think?
But just dropping in and making a few points that only seem to disagree in some unclear way, makes me doubt the sincerity of your points.

 

[Mitspa]

The old man is certainly related to the Adamic nature, but it is not the same thing. As I have been saying, your understanding of the term "old man" does not recognize the slavery imagery of Romans 6. While we have an old nature, we do not have the old man. The old man was crucified with Christ. If I switch texts....
Col 3:9 lie not one to another; seeing that ye have put off the old man with his doings,
Col 3:10 and have put on the new man, that is being renewed unto knowledge after the image of him that created him:
The tense of the Colossians reference (Aorist) demonstrates that the putting off of the old man is an accomplished fact.
Now this does not mean there is no struggle. In fact, only because we are free of the old man, and the old man is dead, only for that reason will the struggle happen.

Well these are scriptures that relate to the issue, I still cannot tell what if any point you are trying to make?
You seem to be in agreement with most of what I have stated?

 

[WIP]

Okay, for me to clean this up I would have to go back and delete about half this thread. I will ask that we all step back, take a deep breath, and cool down a little before things get any further heated. Like I tell my kids from time to time, "Breath in.....breath out."

2.5: Respect each others' opinions. Address issues, not persons or personalities. Give other members the respect you would want them to give yourself.

 

[Mitspa]

2 Cor 5:17 Therefore if anyone be in Christ, he is a NEW CREATION; the old things have past away; behold all things are new.

There is in fact two men in every born again believer, to "renew" the mind, is to bring the mind into the knowledge of who we are in spirit "IN CHRIST"

the "old man" must be considered dead with Christ at His Cross. The "new man" is the man that is raised from the dead with Him.

The old man was under the law of sin and death.
The new man is under the law of the Spirit of life in Christ.

For me, to hear anyone to claim to be a New Testament teacher, and not understand this truth, Is just another puffed up religious teacher. Those who see themselves in the flesh are "fleshly" carnal. Those who have been to His Cross and have died with Him are "spiritual" they see themselves and other believers according to who they are in spirit.

1 John 3:5-9
Is speaking of the "new creation" the spiritual man.
In Him, we have no sin, we cannot sin.
Now the bible is a flaming sword that gaurds the way back to the Tree of Life. It turns every way and judges the thoughts and intentions of every mans heart.
Until one dies to the flesh at His Cross, he is not able to receive the Kingdom of God. For the Kingdom is inherited by the "new man", not the old!
Therefore if you walk in the flesh you cannot inherit the Kingdom of God.
The Word is called "the perfect law of liberty", because it sets us free from the old man and brings us into the liberty of life in Christ.

Now when one reads such a scripture as 2Cor 5:17. and believes who the spiritual mirror reflects, they are not a forgetful hearer. But when one looks at this truth and forgets, they are not a "producer" of the word.

This understanding is the strong meat of the word. This feeds the new man and he grows unto the stature of Christ.

I do also hope that those who disagree would disagree in doctrine and not because I am not nice enough to them.

I always grow when my understanding is challenged in an honest way, but sometimes on the forum I think some just want to disagree to disagree.

 

[ezra]

Okay, for me to clean this up I would have to go back and delete about half this thread. I will ask that we all step back, take a deep breath, and cool down a little before things get any further heated. Like I tell my kids from time to time, "Breath in.....breath out."

2.5: Respect each others' opinions. Address issues, not persons or personalities. Give other members the respect you would want them to give yourself.

delete the entire post..., no matter what manner that is replied it still remains wrong

 

[Deborah13]

What I see here is a splitting of hairs. You are ALL speaking grace (unmerited favor) and power to overcome given by the Holy Spirit that indwells us as born again believers. And I am going to add my own description of this wonderful grace and the "old man".

IMHO The "old man" was a nature without the knowledge of God. The old man has been crucified in Christ. We now have the "new nature" of Christ living in us, in our spirit, the Holy Spirit. The "new creature" is our spirit which has been made alive and where the Holy Spirit dwells.

When Paul speaks of crucifing the "flesh" daily, he is not speaking of the old man nature but of the thoughts and actions that the old man nature taught us and we accepted. They may still be in our thoughts and actions. This is why God tells us to renew our minds to the mind of Christ and that a man does what is in his heart (mind). What is sancification until to holiness but changing how we think and act to be in alignment with the mind of Christ. What is repentance but to do the same.


These thoughts and actions did not always just disappear because they are of the flesh and not the Spirit.

Just my understanding. I am willing to receive instruction that is presented with scripture to refute what I say. I am here to share and learn.

 

[reba]

Okay, for me to clean this up I would have to go back and delete about half this thread. I will ask that we all step back, take a deep breath, and cool down a little before things get any further heated. Like I tell my kids from time to time, "Breath in.....breath out."

2.5: Respect each others' opinions. Address issues, not persons or personalities. Give other members the respect you would want them to give yourself.

Repeating your post WIP.... The personal attacks are filling the forums .... pleasant reminders , nudges, and friendly requests are just flat out being ignored .... I will be editing with out regard to the content of your postings.... To those who take heed THANK YOU! MODERATOR

 

[Mitspa]

What I see here is a splitting of hairs. You are ALL speaking grace (unmerited favor) and power to overcome given by the Holy Spirit that indwells us as born again believers. And I am going to add my own description of this wonderful grace and the "old man".

IMHO The "old man" was a nature without the knowledge of God. The old man has been crucified in Christ. We now have the "new nature" of Christ living in us, in our spirit, the Holy Spirit. The "new creature" is our spirit which has been made alive and where the Holy Spirit dwells.

When Paul speaks of crucifing the "flesh" daily, he is not speaking of the old man nature but of the thoughts and actions that the old man nature taught us and we accepted. They may still be in our thoughts and actions. This is why God tells us to renew our minds to the mind of Christ and that a man does what is in his heart (mind). What is sancification until to holiness but changing how we think and act to be in alignment with the mind of Christ. What is repentance but to do the same.


These thoughts and actions did not always just disappear because they are of the flesh and not the Spirit.

Just my understanding. I am willing to receive instruction that is presented with scripture to refute what I say. I am here to share and learn.

As usual Deb, you and I agree on much. I would point out the reason that I would have others understand that grace has many works toward the believer, is because most do not see that the Spirit Of Grace works to supply our every need. "all grace abounding toward the believer" that God has giving us a grace to overcome the body of sin. Now I do not see any scripture that claims we have somehow been given a natural body that is not subject to sin. But that if we abide in the truth of the "new man" we are in fact living in the spirit. Not that the "old man" is not present and will , if allowed grow strong again. Again the word "reckon" is a key to understanding.

I do not know any man of God, I have read what I would consider the greatest, even unto Paul. That does not acknowledge this conflict and war of the flesh and spirit unto the end?
I think part of the understanding is Paul speaks in terms of those who can only understand the natural realm, and he speaks also to those who are living in the spiritual realm.
Those who are spiritual begin to pick up those things that are written to feed the New Man. Because they are drawn out by the Holy Spirit who is our true teacher.
A large part of scripture is written to those who are carnal, most if not all correction of scripture is given to this group.
You do not need to warn a believer who has their heart set upon Christ and walks in The Spirit of His love, not to partake of fornication and idol worship etc... They have Christ as the law of there heart, and will not be drawn into such death.

So again i do not see any scripture that puts away the flesh apart from abiding in the spirit. This is a daily battle, as you must well know?
All fear, anger, bitterness, hypocricy etc... are coming from somewhere? Is is the flesh and this is why I think it very important to point to the problem as we learn to walk in the solution.
Sin is in the flesh, if we walk in the flesh we will reap from the flesh. Life is in the spirit, if we walk in the spirit we will reap life.

 

[ezra]

What I see here is a splitting of hairs. You are ALL speaking grace (unmerited favor) and power to overcome given by the Holy Spirit that indwells us as born again believers.

hi deb i do agree with you. i would like to clarify my post.. that has been questioned and said to be wrong. having the power to overcome with out the grace of God .is like baking a cake w/o turning the oven on.. my statement was made w/o the Word GRACE . as i stated technically speaking or as some like to say staying in context of Scripture . the Bible uses the words Holy Spirit when it comes to power. :amen its only by the Grace of God his divine favor he left- sent his Spirit to dwell in us. to enable us to live the Christian (disciple ) life. so it is like saying i crossed the fence but you say i jumped the fence. its the same thing only i never said the method i used to cross the fence... beyond that i stand my ground ---

 

[Deborah13]

Romans 6:6

New American Standard Bible (NASB)

6 knowing this, that our old self was crucified with Him, in order that our body of sin might be done away with, so that we would no longer be slaves to sin;

old man without knowledge of God Not born again. Old father, old nature, old creature.
John 8:44

New American Standard Bible (NASB)

44 You are of your father the devil, and you want to do the desires of your father. He was a murderer from the beginning, and does not stand in the truth because there is no truth in him. Whenever he speaks a lie, he speaks from his own nature, for he is a liar and the father of lies.
Ephesians 2:1-3

New American Standard Bible (NASB)

Made Alive in Christ

2 And you were dead in your trespasses and sins, 2 in which you formerly walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, of the spirit that is now working in the sons of disobedience. 3 Among them we too all formerly lived in the lusts of our flesh, indulging the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, even as the rest. (were past tense by nature)

Born again believer. New Father, new nature, new creature.
1 John 3:1

New American Standard Bible (NASB)

Children of God Love One Another

3 See how great a love the Father has bestowed on us, that we would be called children of God; and such we are. For this reason the world does not know us, because it did not know Him.

2 Peter 1:4

New American Standard Bible (NASB)

4 For by these He has granted to us His precious and magnificent promises, so that by them you may become partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world by lust.

It's a matter, very much like separating law and grace. There is the very nature of a person and there is the mind of the person that needs to be renew.
I do not believe someone can have two natures but I do believe that the new nature will need to do battle with the flesh/mind.
Paul equates the flesh to the mind not to the spirit. Paul's nature was that of the divine was it not and yet he battled his flesh/mind.

 

[farouk]

Deborah: Your comments seem good. Scripture uses various phrases, which are both generally similar but also sometimes specifically different, such as, 'new man', 'last Adam', ''flesh'/'body', and so forth. It can be instructive to look at them more closely in the contexts in which they occur.

Blessings.

 

[Deborah13]

hi deb i do agree with you. i would like to clarify my post.. that has been questioned and said to be wrong. having the power to overcome with out the grace of God .is like baking a cake w/o turning the oven on.. my statement was made w/o the Word GRACE . as i stated technically speaking or as some like to say staying in context of Scripture . the Bible uses the words Holy Spirit when it comes to power. :amen its only by the Grace of God his divine favor he left- sent his Spirit to dwell in us. to enable us to live the Christian (disciple ) life. so it is like saying i crossed the fence but you say i jumped the fence. its the same thing only i never said the method i used to cross the fence... beyond that i stand my ground ---

I like that "baking a cake without the oven on" . You also remind me with your fence, that there is not one us as born again children of God, that have jumped or climbed through the fence, for we all had to use the gate where our Shepard stays.
Blessings

 

[ezra]

I like that "baking a cake without the oven on" . You also remind me with your fence, that there is not one us as born again children of God, that have jumped or climbed through the fence, for we all had to use the gate where our Shepard stays.
Blessings

{we all had to use the gate where our Shepard stays.}:amen good point

 

[Deborah13]

So again i do not see any scripture that puts away the flesh apart from abiding in the spirit. This is a daily battle, as you must well know?
All fear, anger, bitterness, hypocricy etc... are coming from somewhere? Is is the flesh and this is why I think it very important to point to the problem as we learn to walk in the solution.
Sin is in the flesh, if we walk in the flesh we will reap from the flesh. Life is in the spirit, if we walk in the spirit we will reap life.

I agree the only way to battle the flesh is by the Spirit. I am not saying that we do not battle the flesh/mind. We think sin before we act on it.

 

[Mitspa]

Romans 6:6

New American Standard Bible (NASB)

6 knowing this, that our old self was crucified with Him, in order that our body of sin might be done away with, so that we would no longer be slaves to sin;

old man without knowledge of God Not born again. Old father, old nature, old creature.
John 8:44

New American Standard Bible (NASB)

44 You are of your father the devil, and you want to do the desires of your father. He was a murderer from the beginning, and does not stand in the truth because there is no truth in him. Whenever he speaks a lie, he speaks from his own nature, for he is a liar and the father of lies.
Ephesians 2:1-3

New American Standard Bible (NASB)

Made Alive in Christ

2 And you were dead in your trespasses and sins, 2 in which you formerly walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, of the spirit that is now working in the sons of disobedience. 3 Among them we too all formerly lived in the lusts of our flesh, indulging the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, even as the rest. (were past tense by nature)

Born again believer. New Father, new nature, new creature.
1 John 3:1

New American Standard Bible (NASB)

Children of God Love One Another

3 See how great a love the Father has bestowed on us, that we would be called children of God; and such we are. For this reason the world does not know us, because it did not know Him.

2 Peter 1:4

New American Standard Bible (NASB)

4 For by these He has granted to us His precious and magnificent promises, so that by them you may become partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world by lust.

It's a matter, very much like separating law and grace. There is the very nature of a person and there is the mind of the person that needs to be renew.
I do not believe someone can have two natures but I do believe that the new nature will need to do battle with the flesh/mind.
Paul equates the flesh to the mind not to the spirit. Paul's nature was that of the divine was it not and yet he battled his flesh/mind.

Well ai agree, and would admit that even the great teachers I have studied have a certain level of conflict over what the term "flesh" actually means? I would allow that some can have different understandings, but yet understand that it is a element of sin that yet dwells within us. How some would describe that element really has no bearing on what I am attempting to teach. It is the Light that overcomes the darkness and the Light is the focus of what I am trying forward. Now if some call the "sin" a nature or the old man, body of sin etc... I believe it all has the same constant meaning of scripture. The fact that we all must battle against this dark element within us, seems clear to me. All doubt, fears, lust.. etc
have a source, what one calls that source? Or how one describes it, takes no power from the Light that overcomes it.

Your scirptures are very true, and I believe in the promises and that Christ has given me victory over all things. I think and know that victory will only be manifest as I walk in faith in the promises. The battle is won, we are to believe in the victory and enter into these things of Gods eternal rest. But if draws back of if they allow the flesh to put them back into bondage they will not enter into the things of Gods rest.

We get to partake in the victory, we can reap rewards! God has left us part of our own battle through His victory.

Just like the promised land, the land is bought and paid for By our Reedemer. We must believe and enter in, we must fight the enemies of God with the confidence of His Promises.

So we are in fact here to enforce His victory. This is our work and our part.

 

[Mitspa]

Also, one more question Deb? how do you define the term "flesh" as Paul uses it? I must admit that my understanding of the term is yet being formed by the Holy Spirit. I would use the Lords Words as my best understanding?
"that which is born of flesh is flesh"

 

[ezra]

2 different types flesh meaning born of the flesh.. our body---- to live by the flesh--would be carnal opposite of the spirit. when some one acts on their own to do something of GOD that is of their own mind . when we do something led by the spirit. that is us being controlled by the spirit.