THE NEW MAN

[Mitspa]

you want boldness? if you will go back reread what others have been saying. your gnat straining over our sinful nature that can come out. we have been given the power to crucify the flesh ..we have to make a choice.... once again every one of us need a bible lesson ..thats what preaching is

Again the biblical term is "flesh" not sinful nature.
My friend Deb, showed great conflict with the term, and as a humble brother in Christ should, I considered why she had her great concern? As I searched the matter out, I found agreement with her on this issue. (see yesterdays post) Because of my respect for her honesty and her love of truth, I yielded to her concerns, and grew in understanding. This is the biblical way of growth.

 

[ezra]

Again the biblical term is "flesh" not sinful nature.
My friend Deb, showed great conflict with the term, and as a humble brother in Christ should, I considered why she had her great concern? As I searched the matter out, I found agreement with her on this issue. (see yesterdays post) Because of my respect for her honesty and her love of truth, I yielded to her concerns, and grew in understanding. This is the biblical way of growth.

lol i will say one thing you never say die..or better yet the Word sin

grew in understanding. This is the biblical way of growth.

you had a Bible lesson :amen the flesh is classified as one our skin two--also our sinful nature have a good day..

 

[Mitspa]

lol i will say one thing you never say die..or better yet the Word sin

you had a Bible lesson :amen the flesh is classified as one our skin two--also our sinful nature have a good day..

I use the term "sin" as I should. I use the term "grace" more because by grace sin is overcome! Your right, most look at mans failure and I look at Christ victory. This is the greastest of bible lessons, set your mind on things above, where Christ is seated. Not a whole lot of sin to dwell on there, forgive me for not eating from the tree of guilt, shame and fear! I have found the tree of Life! Righteousness, peace and joy in the Holy Spirit, this is kingdom of God!

 

[ezra]

I use the term "sin" as I should. I use the term "grace" more because by grace sin is overcome! Your right, most look at mans failure and I look at Christ victory. This is the greastest of bible lessons, set your mind on things above, where Christ is seated. Not a whole lot of sin to dwell on there, forgive me for not eating from the tree of guilt, shame and fear! I have found the tree of Life! Righteousness, peace and joy in the Holy Spirit, this is kingdom of God!

you need to relax dont get so uptight.. i am not interested in changing you... i simply posted my stance on the subject

forgive me for not eating from the tree of guilt, shame and fear!

your forgiven ..i had no idea was trying to get you to eat the forbidden fruit ..if i disagree with you i will say so.. i have never asked you to come over to my side.... if you disagree and post so its ok ..i just like to post yes in the heat i can get very intense .. especially being told i am a false teacher.. you like to use big words long explanations.. my self i bring it down to a level a child can understand....

 

[Mitspa]

you need to relax dont get so uptight.. i am not interested in changing you... i simply posted my stance on the subject your forgiven ..i had no idea was trying to get you to eat the forbidden fruit ..if i disagree with you i will say so.. i have never asked you to come over to my side.... if you disagree and post so its ok ..i just like to post yes in the heat i can get very intense .. especially being told i am a false teacher.. you like to use big words long explanations.. my self i bring it down to a level a child can understand....

OK then, do you see the issue Deb raised with the "sinful nature" and do see that it could be in conflict with the New Heart, the renewed mind and the divine nature, if one took it as a condition of the soul, and not leave it in the body as the scriptures provide? It is a bit of a conflict to some scripture, but I think it may have some value in the early process of ones Christain walk? I mean you tell a new believer they have sin in their flesh, I doubt they can relate to that very well? But if you describe to them a part of them that desires to act in sin, I think most new believers can relate to that truth?

 

[ezra]

OK then, do you see the issue Deb raised with the "sinful nature" and do see that it could be in conflict with the New Heart, the renewed mind and the divine nature, if one took it as a condition of the soul, and not leave it in the body as the scriptures provide? It is a bit of a conflict to some scripture, but I think it may have some value in the early process of ones Christain walk? I mean you tell a new believer they have sin in their flesh, I doubt they can relate to that very well? But if you describe to them a part of them that desires to act in sin, I think most new believers can relate to that truth?

we can sin after salvation............................... that does not mean one has reverted back to the old man/nature

I mean you tell a new believer they have sin in their flesh

STOP....no body has said that mainly me.... when paul write Romans 8:8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God. he is not talking about our human flesh . he is talking about working out side of the influence of the spirit. IE: NOT led of controlled waking in . HE ALSO SAID THE SPIRIT QUICKENS GIVES LIE THE FLESH PROFITS NOTHING .. we will always have to deal with sin until we get our glorified body thus our perfection will be complete . you have taken the word flesh and totally took it out of context .. i don,t like to use big words either... when we feel we are led of the Spirit to do something ..it is either A. us acting on our own thinking it is of God when its just us. or B. we are truly led of the and it will be a true blessing of GOD. A. would be Flesh B. would be spirit if we fall into temptation or just out and out do something that is un Godly-wrong that is the flesh we have allowed . if the Bible says Sin shall not have control over us. in hill folks terms just cause the Bird builds the nest there don,t mean it has to stay there.... jesus said out of the heart come evil thoughts, murder, adultery, sexual immorality, theft, false testimony, slander. proverbs says keep Guard your heart with all diligence for out of it is the issues of Life.. just let the wrong button be pushed and anger can pop up next if not careful we will say something wrong.... " don't tell me you have never had that happen" flesh can lead to sin..... not body flesh

But if you describe to them a part of them that desires to act in sin,

no body desires to but we can if we choose so....

 

[Mitspa]

we can sin after salvation............................... that does not mean one has reverted back to the old man/nature STOP....no body has said that mainly me.... when paul write Romans 8:8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God. he is not talking about our human flesh . he is talking about working out side of the influence of the spirit. IE: NOT led of controlled waking in . HE ALSO SAID THE SPIRIT QUICKENS GIVES LIE THE FLESH PROFITS NOTHING .. we will always have to deal with sin until we get our glorified body thus our perfection will be complete . you have taken the word flesh and totally took it out of context .. i don,t like to use big words either... when we feel we are led of the Spirit to do something ..it is either A. us acting on our own thinking it is of God when its just us. or B. we are truly led of the and it will be a true blessing of GOD. A. would be Flesh B. would be spirit if we fall into temptation or just out and out do something that is un Godly-wrong that is the flesh we have allowed . if the Bible says Sin shall not have control over us. in hill folks terms just cause the Bird builds the nest there don,t mean it has to stay there.... jesus said out of the heart come evil thoughts, murder, adultery, sexual immorality, theft, false testimony, slander. proverbs says keep Guard your heart with all diligence for out of it is the issues of Life.. just let the wrong button be pushed and anger can pop up next if not careful we will say something wrong.... " don't tell me you have never had that happen" flesh can lead to sin..... not body flesh no body desires to but we can if we choose so....

Ezra! are you so determined to be at odds with me, that we cannot have a honset discussion of scripture, without all this nonsense of back and forth, insults and speaking down? Are you not able to have a discussion on the Word of God, without bitterness? If not for your own desire to learn that others might find some wisdom in your understanding? I am about through with trying to find some common ground with you. Please find another enemy, because I have just about decided to ignore you from this point forward.

 

[Mitspa]

2 Cor 5:17 Therefore if anyone be in Christ, he is a NEW CREATION; the old things have past away; behold all things are new.

There is in fact two men in every born again believer, to "renew" the mind, is to bring the mind into the knowledge of who we are in spirit "IN CHRIST"

the "old man" must be considered dead with Christ at His Cross. The "new man" is the man that is raised from the dead with Him.

The old man was under the law of sin and death.
The new man is under the law of the Spirit of life in Christ.

For me, to hear anyone to claim to be a New Testament teacher, and not understand this truth, Is just another puffed up religious teacher. Those who see themselves in the flesh are "fleshly" carnal. Those who have been to His Cross and have died with Him are "spiritual" they see themselves and other believers according to who they are in spirit.

1 John 3:5-9
Is speaking of the "new creation" the spiritual man.
In Him, we have no sin, we cannot sin.
Now the bible is a flaming sword that gaurds the way back to the Tree of Life. It turns every way and judges the thoughts and intentions of every mans heart.
Until one dies to the flesh at His Cross, he is not able to receive the Kingdom of God. For the Kingdom is inherited by the "new man", not the old!
Therefore if you walk in the flesh you cannot inherit the Kingdom of God.
The Word is called "the perfect law of liberty", because it sets us free from the old man and brings us into the liberty of life in Christ.

Now when one reads such a scripture as 2Cor 5:17. and believes who the spiritual mirror reflects, they are not a forgetful hearer. But when one looks at this truth and forgets, they are not a "producer" of the word.

I am going to try and start this thread again from this point?
If anyone would like to grow-up in the things of God and get a better understanding of some deeper issues, I welcome your inpute. Until one sees themself as a "New Creation" In Christ you are missing the Kingdom of God. If you hunger and thirst for righteousness, this understanding is for you.

 

[ezra]

without all this nonsense of back and forth, insults and speaking down? Are you not able to have a discussion on the Word of God, without bitterness?

ummmmmmmm i gave you a straight up reply ..............

Ezra! are you so determined to be at odds with me,

i have never said i was going to agree with you ..nor have i asked you to agree with me. if you can not respect what i say don,t ask ..i may not agree with you but i can respect your belief

Are you not able to have a discussion on the Word of God, without bitterness?

if you want bitterness i am well schooled in it ( my old nature) i have done posted all i need ( suggestion )... clean your own door step instead of trying to clean mine..i will be 1st to admit i have faults that through Christ i try to get took care of. days i do good days i dont. i was very honest with you gave explanations i am not a flowered speaker ..i am a straight shooter .. last but not least i fully understand this--------->"New Creation" In Christ you are missing the Kingdom of God. ..i have country ways it seems like your button has been pushed because i did not say jolly good post mitspa totopic

 

[Deborah13]

Deb, I have been thinking on the whole "sinful nature" translation and understanding that some use to describe the flesh.
Understanding that we are spirit, soul and body is needed I think? for to call the flesh a "sinful nature" is to say that the soul is in the bondage of sin. Now I do believe that a nonbeliever is in fact in bondage to the sinful flesh. Thus their soul would have a sinful nature. But a believers soul should not be dependent upon the flesh, but the spirit. A "carnal" christian is enslaved to the flesh in large degree. Because they can only relate and act, by what they know according to the flesh.
I think one could say that a carnal christian is, through ignorance, walking in a "sinful nature"
A spiritual christains is walking in the "divine nature" yet reckoning themselves dead to the flesh. Not that the flesh is not present with them, but that they have brought their soul into agreement with the spirit. The renewed mind would be an enlighted soul, this overcoming all darkness within them.

Now some of this understanding is new to my thought process. I have much to consider to establish this as truth that I can live by. Having said that I welcome others opinions, but would ask that you come in a humble heart, and I will respond in a humble way. I do not need a bible lesson, I desire another humble heart by which the Spirit of Truth could work to challenge my thoughts, or to help confirm my thoughts on this issue.

I've done some reading on this subject, I'll just post the link so you can see what you think when you have time.
I think there's the interpretation of Romans 6:6 is a good one. As well as the rest.
http://bible.org/article/“old-man”-and-“new-man”-paul

 

[Deborah13]

The old man is that person within us that yields himself to the corrupt desires of the flesh. What we have been freed from is the power and authority of the flesh to hold us in bondage to the ways of the old man who followed after the desires of the flesh. The power of corrupt desires has ended and so we can put to death those desires and the man who walks after them and walk according to the new man who yields himself in obedience and slavery to righteousness through the power and authority of the Spirit.

The law was like a marriage contract that held us bound in service and submission to husband 'flesh'. We were married to the flesh, obeying it's dictates as a wife to her husband, bearing the fruit of death, the law keeping us bound to that relationship with the flesh. But, by the Holy Spirit, we died and are released from the marital contract of the law that held us in bondage to the authority of the flesh and are now free to marry Christ, the Spirit now being the contract that holds us in marital bond and service to Him. The fruit we bear in our marital bond and submission to our new husband, Christ, is the fruit of righteousness.

This is an awesome post. I have never heard it explained this way and I love it.

Your post made me think of this. We are divorced from the other husband and should not be looking back it will be a temptation to go back. I remembered Lot's wife. She looked back everything on fire and soon to be ashes and longing for a place she did not belong.

 

[Mitspa]

I've done some reading on this subject, I'll just post the link so you can see what you think when you have time.
I think there's the interpretation of Romans 6:6 is a good one. As well as the rest.
http://bible.org/article/“old-man”-and-“new-man”-paul

Tried to look at your link, my smart phone has issues with it, so not able to read it. You know Paul says things is Romans as in Rom 6:6 as if it is a completed fact. I believe in the understanding and in the Mind of God, it is. He says we have died to sin, he says if we have the Spirit we are in the spirit.

Now I accept these things as true, "I reckon" them as finished fact and think in terms of being "seated with Christ" already!

But as Paul goes on in other places to explain the walking out of these truths. That a believer is not "walking in the spirit" or "in the spirit" just because they have the spirit. That would make a large part of his writtings have little meaning or purpose. We all know that this battle and conflict between spirit and flesh is not as simple as having the Spirit within you!

I am not trying to make walking in the spirit, or in the new man, some complex doctrine. It is as simple as walking in faith and love. But one must first see this new man in scripture and in large part understand that we are to have great confidence in who God says we are in Christ.

If any scripture best describes the faith needed to enter into these things? It would be Heb 4:1-6 That all have received that which is needed to enter is true! A calvinist can give a great amount of scripture in regards to being in the spirit, but it does not mean they are really in the Spirit.

Many can point to Romans 6:6 and say they are crucified with Christ to the flesh? But if they still act in the flesh they have not attained to the truth of that scripture.

I am not trying to have a scriptural debate but to help others find the way into the Mind of Christ.
Many can say "i have the Mind of Christ" it is written!
Well its just not as simple as finding a scripture and then telling others about the scripture. There is a process and walk of faith, a growth in grace and knowledge.

I know you know these things Deb, and have these things in large part. But we are always being called to deeper things and all the scriptures work together, one cannot make another untrue. Rom 6:6 does not mean that the process of being crucified with Christ is not needed as Paul describes in his many other writtings

 

[Deborah13]

I posted that link just for you when you had a chance, not to derail your train on this thread. No need to respond.

As for the rest of your post I agree, if you don't have your heart firmly planted in grace it is so much harder to walk in the Spirit.

Preach on Preacher

 

[Jethro Bodine]

This is an awesome post. I have never heard it explained this way and I love it.

Paul has to get all the credit for this one. This is from Romans 7:1-6. I can see you are a devoted student of God's Word. Enjoy the link.

Your post made me think of this. We are divorced from the other husband and should not be looking back it will be a temptation to go back. I remembered Lot's wife. She looked back everything on fire and soon to be ashes and longing for a place she did not belong.

Yes. That's very good!

This is what teaching each other is all about (Colossians 3:16). We share a little something that inspires another believer to greater insight, which in turn edifies and refines the one who inspired the additional insight.

"When you come together, each of you has a hymn, or a word of instruction, a revelation, a tongue or an interpretation. Everything must be done so that the church may be built up." (1 Corinthians 14:26 NIV)

 

[Mitspa]

The scripture declares "Walk in the spirit, and you will not fulfill the lust of the flesh" It does not say to fix the flesh and then you will be in the spirit.
We are to put aside all confidence in the flesh, we are to account that WE MUST WALK IN THE SPIRIT!

Now the carnal "fleshly" man, cannot believe that but what he can know and do, by the flesh. He may aquire to the "appearance" of holiness and righteousness, through self-effort and rule keeping, but he has not attained to the obedience of the gospel. The old man, can sing songs of Gods Grace, talk of His mercy, but be far from the will of God. The great example of the pharisee is forever a warning to those who put on the appearance of righteousness, but have not been changed in heart by the Spirit of Grace.
Now the New man, knows beyond doubt, that only by faith through grace, does he stand. His confidence in The Lord and he knows that as long as he abides in His Grace, he can never fail. He takes no pride in the ability that God has given, what man has anything in Gods Kingdom that was not given to him by Grace? There is no room for boasting in the true gospel.
The New Man is "spiritual" he does no longer judge others by the flesh. Paul wrote of those who judge and compare themselves with others, that they are not wise!
You see a man who is subject to his own flesh, will look to judge others flesh. This is the judgment condemned in scripture! But he who is spiritual judges all things, yet he is judged of no man. The new man cannot be judged by any other man, because God alone is his judge. God deals with this man in secret places and will not allow any to cast shame upon him. Oh the joy! The freedom from the flesh! The freedom from mans judgment! Oh that some of you would dare to believe?
Liberty is assured for those who put no confidence in the flesh but trust only in Gods grace!

"NOT BY POWER, NOR BY MIGHT, BUT BY MY SPIRIT SAITH THE LORD!

 

[ezra]

Again the biblical term is "flesh" not sinful nature.

so suppose you explain the difference ...


"Galatians 5:17 For the sinful nature desires what is contrary to the Spirit, and the Spirit what is contrary to the sinful nature. They are in conflict with each other, so that you do not do what you want.



The Spirit versus the Flesh Holman Christian Standard Bible


16I say then, •walk by the Spirit and you will not carry out the desire of the flesh. 17 For the flesh desires what is against the Spirit, and the Spirit desires what is against the flesh; these are opposed to each other, so that you don’t do what you want.s 18 But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the law.


flesh (as stripped of the skin), i.e.
(strictly) the meat of an animal (as food), or (by extension) the body
(as opposed to the soul (or spirit), or as the symbol of what is
external, or as the means of kindred), or (by implication) human
nature (with its frailties (physically or morally) and passions), or
(specially), a human being (as such):-carnal(-ly, + -ly minded),
flesh(-ly).


NLT ©
The old sinful nature loves to do evil, which is just opposite from what the Holy Spirit wants. And the Spirit gives us desires that are opposite from what the sinful nature desires. These two forces are constantly fighting each other, and your choices are never free from this conflict. carnal mind -flesh -is both the same. if we are in the flesh (operating on our own w/o the spirit ) i am not arguing against how we over come or walking in the spirit --i am simply pointing out definitions

Now the carnal "fleshly" man, cannot believe that but what he can know and do, by the flesh. He may aquire to the "appearance" of holiness and righteousness, through self-effort and rule keeping, but he has not attained to the obedience of the gospel. The old man, can sing songs of Gods Grace, talk of His mercy, but be far from the will of God. The great example of the pharisee is forever a warning to those who put on the appearance of righteousness, but have not been changed in heart by the Spirit of Grace.
Now the New man, knows beyond doubt, that only by faith through grace, does he stand. His confidence in The Lord and he knows that as long as he abides in His Grace, he can never fail. He takes no pride in the ability that God has given, what man has anything in Gods Kingdom that was not given to him by Grace? There is no room for boasting in the true gospel.
The New Man is "spiritual" he does no longer judge others by the flesh. Paul wrote of those who judge and compare themselves with others, that they are not wise!
You see a man who is subject to his own flesh, will look to judge others flesh. This is the judgment condemned in scripture! But he who is spiritual judges all things, yet he is judged of no man. The new man cannot be judged by any other man, because God alone is his judge. God deals with this man in secret places and will not allow any to cast shame upon him. Oh the joy! The freedom from the flesh! The freedom from mans judgment! Oh that some of you would dare to believe?
Liberty is assured for those who put no confidence in the flesh but trust only in Gods grace!

FYI i have never disagreed on this ..why you want to tweak out over definitions is beyond me...:dunno..here i always thought a man had the right to disagree w/o someone thinking they can rebuke.... i have made my point you can post as you please... I AM THROUGH i will remind you this IS NOT salvation threatening :amen

 

[Deborah13]

For me the "flesh" as Paul uses the term, is to be "carnally minded". By the teaching and guidance of the Holy Spirit this carnal mind can be renewed by the word of God and by Him working in my life. Not that I can ever completely get to the place of having the mind of Christ but that I can at least overcome some of the junk that's there and not feed junk in. Having a double mind...what is that but folly?

 

[ezra]

For me the "flesh" as Paul uses the term, is to be "carnally minded". By the teaching and guidance of the Holy Spirit this carnal mind can be renewed by the word of God and by Him working in my life. Not that I can ever completely get to the place of having the mind of Christ but that I can at least overcome some of the junk that's there and not feed junk in. Having a double mind...what is that but folly?

exactly

 

[Mitspa]

The scripture declares "Walk in the spirit, and you will not fulfill the lust of the flesh" It does not say to fix the flesh and then you will be in the spirit.
We are to put aside all confidence in the flesh, we are to account that WE MUST WALK IN THE SPIRIT!

Now the carnal "fleshly" man, cannot believe that but what he can know and do, by the flesh. He may aquire to the "appearance" of holiness and righteousness, through self-effort and rule keeping, but he has not attained to the obedience of the gospel. The old man, can sing songs of Gods Grace, talk of His mercy, but be far from the will of God. The great example of the pharisee is forever a warning to those who put on the appearance of righteousness, but have not been changed in heart by the Spirit of Grace.
Now the New man, knows beyond doubt, that only by faith through grace, does he stand. His confidence in The Lord and he knows that as long as he abides in His Grace, he can never fail. He takes no pride in the ability that God has given, what man has anything in Gods Kingdom that was not given to him by Grace? There is no room for boasting in the true gospel.
The New Man is "spiritual" he does no longer judge others by the flesh. Paul wrote of those who judge and compare themselves with others, that they are not wise!
You see a man who is subject to his own flesh, will look to judge others flesh. This is the judgment condemned in scripture! But he who is spiritual judges all things, yet he is judged of no man. The new man cannot be judged by any other man, because God alone is his judge. God deals with this man in secret places and will not allow any to cast shame upon him. Oh the joy! The freedom from the flesh! The freedom from mans judgment! Oh that some of you would dare to believe?
Liberty is assured for those who put no confidence in the flesh but trust only in Gods grace!

"NOT BY POWER, NOR BY MIGHT, BUT BY MY SPIRIT SAITH THE LORD!

TO HIM WHO HAS MORE WILL BE GIVEN, TO HIM WHO HAS NOT, EVEN THAT WHICH HE HAS WILL BE TAKEN WAY.

These is a most important understanding if one would walk in the New Man. We have been given Gods Righteousness and endless grace. Only when we know we have these things, can God build upon them, greater levels of grace and knowledge.

Eph 4:24 And that you would put on the New Man, which after God, is created in righteousness and true holiness.

This is that which John wrote? In Him we have no sin, and cannot sin.

There is a sinless part of a believer, absolute in holiness.
This is why Paul wrote that if we will walk in the spirit, we will not fulfill the lust of the flesh. There is only one way to attain true biblcal holiness? Not by power, nor might, nor efforts of man. But to walk in the truth of what we already have been given.

 

[Deborah13]

TO HIM WHO HAS MORE WILL BE GIVEN, TO HIM WHO HAS NOT, EVEN THAT WHICH HE HAS WILL BE TAKEN WAY.

These is a most important understanding if one would walk in the New Man. We have been given Gods Righteousness and endless grace. Only when we know we have these things, can God build upon them, greater levels of grace and knowledge.

Eph 4:24 And that you would put on the New Man, which after God, is created in righteousness and true holiness.

This is that which John wrote? In Him we have no sin, and cannot sin.

There is a sinless part of a believer, absolute in holiness.
This is why Paul wrote that if we will walk in the spirit, we will not fulfill the lust of the flesh. There is only one way to attain true biblcal holiness? Not by power, nor might, nor efforts of man. But to walk in the truth of what we already have been given.

I find this teaching to be helpful in understanding how we can be righteous in Christ and yet have to deal with the flesh.