THE NEW MAN

[Deborah13]

Also, one more question Deb? how do you define the term "flesh" as Paul uses it? I must admit that my understanding of the term is yet being formed by the Holy Spirit. I would use the Lords Words as my best understanding?
"that which is born of flesh is flesh"

My understanding is that almost all the time Paul is speaking of the flesh in the sense of the mind. That place where sin can still dwell. The soul to me is the mind. Our mind is like a computer that is fed from all sorts of places. Before we were born again our soul/mind accumulates all sorts of garbage which we accept with out regard to God. Therefore our concious is corrupted. Paul absolutely makes a distinction between the spirit and the soul and the body in the two separate verse.

 

[ezra]

My understanding is that almost all the time Paul is speaking of the flesh in the sense of the mind. That place where sin can still dwell. The soul to me is the mind. Our mind is like a computer that is fed from all sorts of places. Before we were born again our soul/mind accumulates all sorts of garbage which we accept with out regard to God. Therefore our concious is corrupted. Paul absolutely makes a distinction between the spirit and the soul and the body in the two separate verse.

i agree with that deb

 

[Deborah13]

My understanding is that almost all the time Paul is speaking of the flesh in the sense of the mind. That place where sin can still dwell. The soul to me is the mind. Our mind is like a computer that is fed from all sorts of places. Before we were born again our soul/mind accumulates all sorts of garbage which we accept with out regard to God. Therefore our concious is corrupted. Paul absolutely makes a distinction between the spirit and the soul and the body in the two separate verse.

Ok here's a scripture which was the GK "sarx" which can be the fleshy body, or the natural fleshy natured man and he is definitly speaking of the second.

Romans 8:9
However, you are not in the flesh ( denotes mere human nature) but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. But if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Him.

 

[Mitspa]

Ok here's a scripture which was the GK "sarx" which can be the fleshy body, or the natural fleshy natured man and he is definitly speaking of the second.

Romans 8:9
However, you are not in the flesh ( denotes mere human nature) but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. But if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Him.

Ok then in some respect you must accept that having two men, "old" and "new" would require to some degree two natures at work?
Again I am trying to find any conflict in what I have said and in what your are saying, I do not see it?

You admit the need to battle against the desires of the flesh.
I would also find issue with the thought that this is just about the mind, we have scripture that shows us the we have a body of sin, and sin that wars in our members.

I believe that most evident understanding is the the whole of the natural body, has the element of sin. That which is born of the flesh, is flesh.
Because of my great respect for your opinion I have allowed that you might have a different understanding that I might learn from? To this point I can not see where we are in disagreement, or any reason to change my own view.

 

[ezra]

we was born with a sinful nature..that nature is still there after salvation.. we have to battle it on a daily bases..

 

[Deborah13]

This may be a matter of semantics. We end up in the same place very much like if one believes that they are convinced by the Holy Spirit that they have sinned. OR that they are convinced by the Holy Spirit that they are righteous in Christ and so their behaviors need to match up with this truth. They end up in the same place.

 

[Mitspa]

we was born with a sinful nature..that nature is still there after salvation.. we have to battle it on a daily bases..

I like to use the biblical term "flesh" but I think we can all agree that sin still has a place in our mortal bodies? I believe this is what is called the "old man" "body of sin"
Old and New man. I just dont see how anyone could see these scriptures, any other way?

Paul is very carful to say "I know nothing good lives in MY FLESH" he is not saying we do not have anything good in us but in the flesh.
He did not say I know nothing good lives in my sinful nature.
We are also told we have a divine nature. So I do not use the term "sinful nature" but I understand that others feel this best describes the old fallen nature of the flesh.

 

[Mitspa]

This may be a matter of semantics. We end up in the same place very much like if one believes that they are convinced by the Holy Spirit that they have sinned. OR that they are convinced by the Holy Spirit that they are righteous in Christ and so their behaviors need to match up with this truth. They end up in the same place.

Well I do not accept that what we are speaking of here relates to that issue at all!
Not even sure why you would mention such a doctrine in the context of the discussion we have had here on this issue?

But you are free to believe whatever you choose, I will stay with the scriptures. I do not stand alone in my view of that destructive doctrine. A.W , spurgeon, JP and smith wigglesworth all have taken the clear biblical position that I have. But none of them agree on the issue in which we are now in discussion.

 

[Deborah13]

Well I do not accept that what we are speaking of here relates to that issue at all!
Not even sure why you would mention such a doctrine in the context of the discussion we have had here on this issue?

But you are free to believe whatever you choose, I will stay with the scriptures. I do not stand alone in my view of that destructive doctrine. A.W , spurgeon, JP and smith wigglesworth all have taken the clear biblical position that I have. But none of them agree on the issue in which we are now in discussion.

I sorry if I upset you but I can see how it can be a matter of how one looks at it. I happen to agree with you on that issue of convincing of righteousness.

Also if we have the old man sin nature, flesh still living in us isn't that still being in bondage to sin? To me that's worse than being in bondage to the law. Be in bondage by something righteous is much better than being in bondage to the nature of the devil.


However on the issue of the old nature, new nature I have not set my thoughts totally. I have been reading a lot and there has been a lot said about it and mostly by Reformed theologians such as John McArthur, Murray, etc. who teach one nature. Andrew Wommack teaches one nature. I thought I was firmly grounded in this but now I'm not so sure. I believe we sin because of old baggage and that we will always be susceptible to be deceived by the enemy. I don't think Eve had a sin nature when she was deceived or Adam either. What do you think? Did they?

As for the divine nature, I think that is in the spirit, certainly not in the flesh.

 

[ezra]

I like to use the biblical term "flesh" but I think we can all agree that sin still has a place in our mortal bodies? I believe this is what is called the "old man" "body of sin"
Old and New man. I just dont see how anyone could see these scriptures, any other way?

Paul is very carful to say "I know nothing good lives in MY FLESH" he is not saying we do not have anything good in us but in the flesh.
He did not say I know nothing good lives in my sinful nature.
We are also told we have a divine nature. So I do not use the term "sinful nature" but I understand that others feel this best describes the old fallen nature of the flesh.

psalms 51:1 (To the chief Musician, A Psalm of David, when Nathan the prophet came unto him, after he had gone in to Bathsheba.) Have mercy upon me, O God, according to thy lovingkindness: according unto the multitude of thy tender mercies blot out my transgressions.

2 Wash me throughly from mine iniquity, and cleanse me from my sin.

3 For I acknowledge my transgressions: and my sin is ever before me.

4 Against thee, thee only, have I sinned, and done this evil in thy sight: that thou mightest be justified when thou speakest, and be clear when thou judgest.

5 Behold, I was shapen in iniquity; and in sin did my mother conceive me.

6 Behold, thou desirest truth in the inward parts: and in the hidden part thou shalt make me to know wisdom.

7 Purge me with hyssop, and I shall be clean: wash me, and I shall be whiter than snow.

8 Make me to hear joy and gladness; that the bones which thou hast broken may rejoice.

9 Hide thy face from my sins, and blot out all mine iniquities.

10 Create in me a clean heart, O God; and renew a right spirit within me.

11 Cast me not away from thy presence; and {take not thy holy spirit from me.} he is not going to remove his spirit from us that is what keeps us in check.one of the many functions of the Holy Spirit.. we do sin john wrote my little children i write to you that you sin not..but if you do you have a advocate

 

[Mitspa]

I sorry if I upset you but I can see how it can be a matter of how one looks at it. I happen to agree with you on that issue of convincing of righteousness.

Also if we have the old man sin nature, flesh still living in us isn't that still being in bondage to sin? To me that's worse than being in bondage to the law. Be in bondage by something righteous is much better than being in bondage to the nature of the devil.


However on the issue of the old nature, new nature I have not set my thoughts totally. I have been reading a lot and there has been a lot said about it and mostly by Reformed theologians such as John McArthur, Murray, etc. who teach one nature. Andrew Wommack teaches one nature. I thought I was firmly grounded in this but now I'm not so sure. I believe we sin because of old baggage and that we will always be susceptible to be deceived by the enemy. I don't think Eve had a sin nature when she was deceived or Adam either. What do you think? Did they?

As for the divine nature, I think that is in the spirit, certainly not in the flesh.

The law, when it is laid upon the flesh, produces sinful desires.
Because the flesh is a rebel against the law of God. At the Cross this condition, "sin in the flesh" was judged in the Body of our Lord, "He became sin". Now for the believer we have received The Holy Spirit "divine nature" etc.. As far as God is concerned he no longer looks upon our flesh, but sees us in spirit. Now or flesh was not saved, our spirit was. Our flesh is made of the earth "dirt" it will return to the earth. The reason the law, holds a believer in sin, is because it produces sinful desires and it was given a spiritual glory to judge the flesh. When we are set free from it we are no longer subject to the flesh and its desires, because we have that which is greater.
We have moved from laws that relate to the flesh "sin and death" into higher laws "the law of the spirit of Life in Christ"
Now a believer who does not believe the gospel will still see themselves in the flesh, judge themselves by the flesh and still be in bondage to the flesh. They will be as Rom7 there whole Christian life. This picture is the same as the children of Israel, going around the same mountain over and over. Now personally I believe that until a believer brings the spiritual power of the Cross upon there flesh, and see there flesh Judged with our Lord, they will still try to live by the flesh.

Also I have not taught two natures, but I understand why some would frame the discussion this way.
I have Andrews book Spirit, soul and body before me on my coffee table. He also does not use the term "sin nature" but uses the biblical term of flesh to describe the conflict we have within us.
I do hope that It is possible to crucify the flesh altogether in this life, but what I see is a daily need to crucify its doubts, strife etc..... I think even Paul rejoiced that one day he would put this body of sin. The flesh is the veil that hinders us from being nearer to Our Lord. One day, it will no longer have any power over us, and we will know and see Him, just as we are known. In spirit.

 

[Mitspa]

Also I agree with ezra, that John is acknowledging the flesh in all as well. I believe that it is also clear that in the 3rd chapter he is speaking of the spiritual man, who has no sin and cannot sin.
He speaks to 3 different groups of believers, children, young men, and fathers.
Those who are young men have taken the gospel and no longer see themself as subject to the flesh. But by the Word of God have been renewed into the New Man. They walk in the spirit, and see themselves as spiritual beings, not natural men.

The fathers are those who have be "regenerated" which is a another subject.

 

[Mitspa]

Wanted to add this thought also? That God is the One who called light out of darkness. His New Creation, new heaven and new earth, is being formed in this way. The flesh is a form of darkness but the light in us, is being called out by His Word.
Herein is God glorified, that a man in such a condition of darkness could have Gods Light shine forth from him! No one should think that it is the mans holiness or power, but that God gets the glory for using such as we are.

So when one considers the ways of God, I do not think it strange that He would leave us in a such a condition, wherein we are always dependent upon Him alone. Our ability is from God, who has made us able ministers of the New Covenant.
Not of the letter but of the Spirit, for the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life.

 

[Mitspa]

Deb, I have been thinking on the whole "sinful nature" translation and understanding that some use to describe the flesh.
Understanding that we are spirit, soul and body is needed I think? for to call the flesh a "sinful nature" is to say that the soul is in the bondage of sin. Now I do believe that a nonbeliever is in fact in bondage to the sinful flesh. Thus their soul would have a sinful nature. But a believers soul should not be dependent upon the flesh, but the spirit. A "carnal" christian is enslaved to the flesh in large degree. Because they can only relate and act, by what they know according to the flesh.
I think one could say that a carnal christian is, through ignorance, walking in a "sinful nature"
A spiritual christains is walking in the "divine nature" yet reckoning themselves dead to the flesh. Not that the flesh is not present with them, but that they have brought their soul into agreement with the spirit. The renewed mind would be an enlighted soul, this overcoming all darkness within them.

Now some of this understanding is new to my thought process. I have much to consider to establish this as truth that I can live by. Having said that I welcome others opinions, but would ask that you come in a humble heart, and I will respond in a humble way. I do not need a bible lesson, I desire another humble heart by which the Spirit of Truth could work to challenge my thoughts, or to help confirm my thoughts on this issue.

 

[ezra]

Deb, I have been thinking on the whole "sinful nature" translation and understanding that some use to describe the flesh.
Understanding that we are spirit, soul and body is needed I think? for to call the flesh a "sinful nature" is to say that the soul is in the bondage of sin. Now I do believe that a nonbeliever is in fact in bondage to the sinful flesh. Thus their soul would have a sinful nature. But a believers soul should not be dependent upon the flesh, but the spirit. A "carnal" christian is enslaved to the flesh in large degree. Because they can only relate and act, by what they know according to the flesh.
I think one could say that a carnal christian is, through ignorance, walking in a "sinful nature"
A spiritual christains is walking in the "divine nature" yet reckoning themselves dead to the flesh. Not that the flesh is not present with them, but that they have brought their soul into agreement with the spirit. The renewed mind would be an enlighted soul, this overcoming all darkness within them.

Now some of this understanding is new to my thought process. I have much to consider to establish this as truth that I can live by. Having said that I welcome others opinions, but would ask that you come in a humble heart, and I will respond in a humble way. I do not need a bible lesson, I desire another humble heart by which the Spirit of Truth could work to challenge my thoughts, or to help confirm my thoughts on this issue.

every thing you have said on the new nature is true... GOD gives us the choice thats why he used the word yield . we can either yield to the flesh which will lead to sin or we can yield to the spirit which gives us life. this is what i been saying all along . there is so much warfare if not careful we will listen to devil...The renewed mind is every day 24/7 process .

I think one could say that a carnal christian is, through ignorance, walking in a "sinful nature"

ignorance yes but also choice .

I do not need a bible lesson,

yes you do so do i along with every one else. lessons teach us . i learn something new through Bible lessons as i read the word and listen to others...thats not a rebuke but a reminder

 

[Jethro Bodine]

The old man is that person within us that yields himself to the corrupt desires of the flesh. What we have been freed from is the power and authority of the flesh to hold us in bondage to the ways of the old man who followed after the desires of the flesh. The power of corrupt desires has ended and so we can put to death those desires and the man who walks after them and walk according to the new man who yields himself in obedience and slavery to righteousness through the power and authority of the Spirit.

The law was like a marriage contract that held us bound in service and submission to husband 'flesh'. We were married to the flesh, obeying it's dictates as a wife to her husband, bearing the fruit of death, the law keeping us bound to that relationship with the flesh. But, by the Holy Spirit, we died and are released from the marital contract of the law that held us in bondage to the authority of the flesh and are now free to marry Christ, the Spirit now being the contract that holds us in marital bond and service to Him. The fruit we bear in our marital bond and submission to our new husband, Christ, is the fruit of righteousness.

 

[Mitspa]

every thing you have said on the new nature is true... GOD gives us the choice thats why he used the word yield . we can either yield to the flesh which will lead to sin or we can yield to the spirit which gives us life. this is what i been saying all along . there is so much warfare if not careful we will listen to devil...The renewed mind is every day 24/7 process . ignorance yes but also choice . yes you do so do i along with every one else. lessons teach us . i learn something new through Bible lessons as i read the word and listen to others...thats not a rebuke but a reminder

Ezra I think we all have agreed that the need to yield to the Spirit and to renew the mind by the Word of God.
The issue I think had and the one I was attempting to adress in this post was that some use the term "sinful nature" in place of the biblical term of "flesh" I was attempting to come to a place of better understanding of the difference.

As far as the bible lesson, I need no man teach me, but the Holy Spirit teaches me all things. Now, many on this forum take issue with my boldness, calling me prideful names etc... What I would like to do is get past much of the pride that religion teaches. I would like nothing better than to come to those on the forum in all humbleness and teach and learn as a true group of christians should. Just as Paul wrote, that the desire to be humble and meek is that which I desire. But I am forced to take a more bold position because of the ungodly behavior that is seen in most conversations on the forum. So then I can come in the spirit meekness or come with the rod of correction, as Paul would say. It is sad that when I would be meek, that those who are puffed up take this as weakness and occasion to insult. I think this is in large part because of all the false and mixed doctrines that are going about the forum? Few, it seems are speaking from the Spirit of Truth. So again I do not need a bible lesson, I do ask for Godly fellowship in searching out the truth. For I know the Spirit of Truth works to teach all, when we act in humility towards each other. Which I hope to do, but I do not accept they hot air of those who are puffed up in mans religion.

 

[Mitspa]

The old man is that person within us that yields himself to the corrupt desires of the flesh. What we have been freed from is the power and authority of the flesh to hold us in bondage to the ways of the old man who followed after the desires of the flesh. The power of corrupt desires has ended and so we can put to death those desires and the man who walks after them and walk according to the new man who yields himself in obedience and slavery to righteousness through the power and authority of the Spirit.

The law was like a marriage contract that held us bound in service and submission to husband 'flesh'. We were married to the flesh, obeying it's dictates as a wife to her husband, bearing the fruit of death, the law keeping us bound to that relationship with the flesh. But, by the Holy Spirit, we died and are released from the marital contract of the law that held us in bondage to the authority of the flesh and are now free to marry Christ, the Spirit now being the contract that holds us in marital bond and service to Him. The fruit we bear in our marital bond and submission to our new husband, Christ, is the fruit of righteousness.

Wow jethro! Most excellent understanding. So then you would agree that the power of this new contract, this new marital and spiritual bond, with Christ, is the understanding that should and needs to be taught to Gods People? To feed the "new man" is to starve the old?
I see much teaching that only relates to the flesh, and little that teaches what it means to be "spiritual".
I think part of that is because in mans religion, the most effective control of a group is to point out the sinful flesh and through forms of guilt, shame and fear control that group.
Liberty and the truth of every man living before God, with his own conscience is not taught in a biblical way. Kinds getting off track? but thank you for your post!

 

[ezra]

Ezra I think we all have agreed that the need to yield to the Spirit and to renew the mind by the Word of God.
The issue I think had and the one I was attempting to adress in this post was that some use the term "sinful nature" in place of the biblical term of "flesh" I was attempting to come to a place of better understanding of the difference.

As far as the bible lesson, I need no man teach me, but the Holy Spirit teaches me all things. Now, many on this forum take issue with my boldness, calling me prideful names etc... What I would like to do is get past much of the pride that religion teaches. I would like nothing better than to come to those on the forum in all humbleness and teach and learn as a true group of christians should. Just as Paul wrote, that the desire to be humble and meek is that which I desire. But I am forced to take a more bold position because of the ungodly behavior that is seen in most conversations on the forum. So then I can come in the spirit meekness or come with the rod of correction, as Paul would say. It is sad that when I would be meek, that those who are puffed up take this as weakness and occasion to insult. I think this is in large part because of all the false and mixed doctrines that are going about the forum? Few, it seems are speaking from the Spirit of Truth. So again I do not need a bible lesson, I do ask for Godly fellowship in searching out the truth. For I know the Spirit of Truth works to teach all, when we act in humility towards each other. Which I hope to do, but I do not accept they hot air of those who are puffed up in mans religion.

you want boldness? if you will go back reread what others have been saying. your gnat straining over our sinful nature that can come out. we have been given the power to crucify the flesh ..we have to make a choice.... once again every one of us need a bible lesson ..thats what preaching is

 

[JCitoL]

the "new" in the "new testament" and the "new creature" is the sheer good/love

2 Corinthians 5:14-17 "the love of Christ constraineth us; because we thus judge(i.e. because we thus refer/regard), that if one died(i.e. if one sacrificed) for all, then were all dead(viz. then this makes all good/loving): And that he died for all, that they which live should not henceforth live unto themselves, but unto him(i.e. but for the sake of Him) which died for them, and rose again. Wherefore henceforth know we no man after the flesh(i.e. according to the iniquity): yea, though we have known Christ after the flesh, yet now henceforth know we him no more. Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new."

Blessings