The Nicene Creed

[JLB]

We are NOT discussing the pre-existence doctrine.

All I'm trying to prove is that he was not "begotten" before the creation of the world.

Actually if we are to discuss Him being "not being begotten" before the creation of the world, then all things that pertain to His existence, before the worlds, because He created all things and is before all things, are pertinent to the topic.

Paul himself as inspired by the Holy Spirit wrote of this very subject and showed His Divine hand in creation, as being firstborn of all creation, and being before all things.

15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation.16 For by Him all things were created that are in heaven and that are on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers. All things were created through Him and for Him. 17 And He is before all things, and in Him all things consist. Colossians 1:15-17

He is the firstborn over all creation, and is before all things.

• who is the image of the invisible God, first-born of all creation, YLT
• Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature: KJV
  
• He is the image of the invisible God the firstborn of all creation. NASB

• Jesus is before all things, and is the firstborn of all creation, having created all things.

Nothing would consist without Him, being before all things and creating all things.



Peter says it this way:

Simon Peter, a bondservant and apostle of Jesus Christ,

To those who have obtained like precious faith with us by the righteousness of our God and Savior Jesus Christ:

2 Grace and peace be multiplied to you in the knowledge of God and of Jesus our Lord, 3 as His divine power has given to us all things that pertain to life and godliness, through the knowledge of Him who called us by glory and virtue, 4 by which have been given to us exceedingly great and precious promises, that through these you may be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruptionthat is in the world through lust. 2 Peter 1:1-4


JLB

 

[JLB]

Show me from Scripture or lexicons that the word "begotten" in English, Hebrew, Greek or Latin refers to anything other than something that takes place after one's conception.

Are you saying Jesus was not begotten of the Father?

Here it is in black and white:

15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation.16 For by Him all things were created that are in heaven and that are on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers. All things were created through Him and for Him. 17 And He is before all things, and in Him all things consist. Colossians 1:15-17


Are you saying "conception" can only take place "naturally" ?

That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. John 3:6

There is spiritual birth, and there is natural birth,

One is heavenly.
One is earthly.

If I have told you earthly things and you do not believe, how will you believe if I tell you heavenly things? John 3:12

Earthly - Natural birth

Heavenly - Spiritual birth.


Please explain, how it is that you don't believe that Jesus Christ is the Only Begotten of the Father, before all things.

Show me a scripture that proves Jesus was not before all things, and was not begotten of the Father, before all things.


JLB

 

[jocor]

Actually if we are to discuss Him being "not being begotten" before the creation of the world, then all things that pertain to His existence, before the worlds, because He created all things and is before all things, are pertinent to the topic.

The ONLY thing relevant to this discussion is the meaning of "begotten" as used in the Niceno-Constantinopolitan Creed in the phrase, "Begotten of the Father before all worlds" where "begotten" is from the Greek word γεννηθέντα. What does γεννηθέντα mean to you? Was Yeshua begotten (γεννηθέντα) before all worlds?

 

[jocor]

Are you saying Jesus was not begotten of the Father?

No. I am not saying that. I know full well he was and that he was begotten at his conception/birth which took place after the creation of the worlds.

 

[jocor]

Here is how γεννηθεντος was used in Matthew 2:1:

Mat 2:1 του G3588 δε G1161[NOW] ιησου G2424[JESUS] γεννηθεντος G1080(G5685)[HAVING BEEN BORN] εν G1722[IN] βηθλεεμ G965 της G3588[BETHLEHEM] ιουδαιας G2449[OF JUDEA,] εν G1722[IN] ημεραις G2250["THE" DAYS] ηρωδου G2264[OF HEROD] του G3588[THE] βασιλεως G935[KING,] ιδου G2400(G5628)[BEHOLD,] μαγοι G3097[MAGI] απο G575[FROM] ανατολων G395["THE" EAST] παρεγενοντο G3854(G5633)[ARRIVED] εις G1519[AT] ιεροσολυμα G2414[JERUSALEM,]

Mat 2:1 Now when Jesus was born in Bethlehem of Judaea in the days of Herod the king, behold, there came wise men from the east to Jerusalem,

 

[JLB]

No. I am not saying that. I know full well he was and that he was begotten at his conception/birth which took place after the creation of the worlds.

Ok please show the scripture that says Jesus was not begotten before
All things.


JLB

 

[JLB]

Was Yeshua begotten (γεννηθέντα) before all worlds?

Yes. Jesus was the first born, only begotten Son who is before all things.

The Only begotten Son was sent into the world.

Jesus is the Son of God, and is the only begotten of the Father, and is creator with the Father, as nothing that was made, was made without Him. John 1:3

JLB

 

[smaller]

From Acts 7:20 to 7:44, the primary subject is Moses.

Acts 7:38 This is he, that was in the church in the wilderness with the angel which spake to him in the mount Sina, and with our fathers: who received the lively oracles to give unto us:​

I can't tell you how many times I was told by a Christian that the angel of YHWH in the bush was the Son.

It is, I believe a given in orthodoxy that where there are expressions in Word form and/or Image of God in the O.T. they are the Son.

Col. 1:
15 Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:

Hebrews 1:
Hebrews 1:
2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;
3 Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power,

As prior noted it was the Spirit of Christ, the Living Word, who spoke Gods Words in the O.T. (1 Peter 1:10-11) There is no scripture that shows God "The Father" speaking in the O.T. that I'm aware of. Orthodox christianity takes these as preIncarnate Word and Image aka christophany.

No one comes to God but by The Son, His Image/Word expression into creation.

John 14:6
Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.







So was the Son talking to the Son?[/QUOTE]

 

[smaller]

I don't know what the problem is smaller, but you keep trying to prove that the Son preexisted even though I am NOT trying to prove he didn't preexist.

That is the automatic default position on your part. You are attempting exactly that, hinging it on the term begotten.

All I'm trying to prove is that he was not "begotten" before the creation of the world. If you can show me how he was, then we can put an end to this issue. The term "begotten," as I understand it, can only refer to three things 1) His resurrection (Acts 13:33) 2) a spiritual begetting (1Co 4:15) 3) his conception/birth (John 1:14), all of which took or take place after the creation of the world.

And we are observing matters of His human body with the term begotten, which did not exist until it did. That does NOT mean the Son was not/is not Eternal.

 

[jocor]

There is no scripture that shows God "The Father" speaking in the O.T. that I'm aware of. Orthodox christianity takes these as preIncarnate Word and Image aka christophany.

Here are two:

Psa 110:1 The LORD (Father YHWH) said unto my Lord (Yeshua), Sit thou at my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool.

Psa 110:4 The LORD (Father YHWH) hath sworn, and will not repent, Thou art a priest for ever after the order of Melchizedek.​

In both verses "God "The Father"" is speaking to His Son.

 

[jocor]

Ok please show the scripture that says Jesus was not begotten before
All things.
JLB

I just showed you in post #105.

 

[smaller]

Here are two:

Psa 110:1 The LORD (Father YHWH) said unto my Lord (Yeshua), Sit thou at my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool.

Psa 110:4 The LORD (Father YHWH) hath sworn, and will not repent, Thou art a priest for ever after the order of Melchizedek.​

In both verses "God "The Father"" is speaking to His Son.

The inserts are convenient and I don't say it wasn't God speaking to The Son, but the term "Father" isn't there. Which is what I was pointing to prior.

There is also no definitive time frame for the references. These could have been exchanges from before any "thing." Said and hath are both past tense.

Lord to Lord, obvious case in point from both references.

 

[jocor]

Yes. Jesus was the first born, only begotten Son who is before all things.

You are applying "begotten (γεννηθέντα)" to the Son before creation. Mt 2:1 proves the word refers to the Son's earthly birth in Bethlehem. Can you show me a verse where γεννηθέντα refers to the Son before creation? If not, then the phrase "begotten (γεννηθέντα) of the Father before all worlds" as found in the Greek Niceno-Constantinopolitan Creed is wrong.

 

[jocor]

The inserts are convenient and I don't say it wasn't God speaking to The Son, but the term "Father" isn't there. Which is what I was pointing to prior.

There is also no definitive time frame for the references. These could have been exchanges from before any "thing." Said and hath are both past tense.

Lord to Lord, obvious case in point from both references.

Why would the term "Father" need to be there if we know for a fact, as declared in the NT, that those words were spoken to the Son by the Father?

The time frame for Psalm 110:1 to be fulfilled is AFTER the Son's resurrection (Mark 16:19). Just because "said" and "hath" are past tense does not mean it is fulfilled in the past. Consider Psalm 2:7;

I will declare the decree: the LORD (YHWH) hath said unto me, Thou art my Son; this day have I begotten thee.​

"Hath" is used here, but these words were not spoken to the Son prior to the day they were written by the Psalmist.

 

[JLB]

Here is how γεννηθεντος was used in Matthew 2:1:

Mat 2:1 του G3588 δε G1161[NOW] ιησου G2424[JESUS] γεννηθεντος G1080(G5685)[HAVING BEEN BORN] εν G1722[IN] βηθλεεμ G965 της G3588[BETHLEHEM] ιουδαιας G2449[OF JUDEA,] εν G1722[IN] ημεραις G2250["THE" DAYS] ηρωδου G2264[OF HEROD] του G3588[THE] βασιλεως G935[KING,] ιδου G2400(G5628)[BEHOLD,] μαγοι G3097[MAGI] απο G575[FROM] ανατολων G395["THE" EAST] παρεγενοντο G3854(G5633)[ARRIVED] εις G1519[AT] ιεροσολυμα G2414[JERUSALEM,]

Mat 2:1 Now when Jesus was born in Bethlehem of Judaea in the days of Herod the king, behold, there came wise men from the east to Jerusalem,

God sent His Son....


4 But when the fullness of the time had come, God sent forth His Son, born of a woman, born under the law, Galatians 4:4

The Son was God's Son, who was sent from God, and He was born of a woman.

He s before all things, then in the fullness of time, He was sent into the world to be born of a woman, born under the law.

The Son of God became flesh, and was born of a woman.

Born of a woman refers to Him coming into the world as a Man.

Firstborn of all creation refers to Him being begotten of the Father as the Son of God.

Born of a woman, refers to Him becoming the Son of Man.

Son of God -,before all things.

Son of Man - born of a woman.

JLB

 

[JLB]

You are applying "begotten (γεννηθέντα)" to the Son before creation. Mt 2:1 proves the word refers to the Son's earthly birth in Bethlehem. Can you show me a verse where γεννηθέντα refers to the Son before creation? If not, then the phrase "begotten (γεννηθέντα) of the Father before all worlds" as found in the Greek Niceno-Constantinopolitan Creed is wrong.

I have shown you the verse that's shows Jesus as being begotten or born before all things.

You have yet to provide a scripture that shows He was not begotten before all things.

15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation.
Colossians 1:15

He's before all things.

JLB

 

[smaller]

Why would the term "Father" need to be there if we know for a fact, as declared in the NT, that those words were spoken to the Son by the Father?

The time frame for Psalm 110:1 to be fulfilled is AFTER the Son's resurrection (Mark 16:19). Just because "said" and "hath" are past tense does not mean it is fulfilled in the past. Consider Psalm 2:7;

Didn't say "fulfilled." Noted that the Words had already been said, Lord unto Lord, in the past. Paul references this fulfillment in 1 Cor. 15:24-25.

Your story appears a bit slanted toward personal (as yet undisclosed in full by you) bias.

Why don't you cut to the chase with whatever camp you're taking your sights from? Save everyone some time instead of beating around the bush.

 

[jocor]

I have shown you the verse that's shows Jesus as being begotten or born before all things.

You have yet to provide a scripture that shows He was not begotten before all things.

15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation.
Colossians 1:15

He's before all things.

JLB

We are dealing with the word γεννηθέντα , not protokos as in Col 1:15. Show me a verse where γεννηθέντα, or any of its forms, are used to refer to the Son being begotten/born before the worlds were created. BTW, Col 1:15 refers to being firstborn from the dead, the first born of the new creation. However, if you insist on mixing apples and oranges by using this verse, please explain how the Son can be the firstborn before all things. How does being "born" harmonize with your belief that the Son always existed?

 

[jocor]

Didn't say "fulfilled." Noted that the Words had already been said, Lord unto Lord, in the past. Paul references this fulfillment in 1 Cor. 15:24-25.

Your story appears a bit slanted toward personal (as yet undisclosed in full by you) bias.

Why don't you cut to the chase with whatever camp you're taking your sights from? Save everyone some time instead of beating around the bush.

I have no slant. You are choosing to make this a personal issue when all I am trying to do is determine what γεννηθέντα means and how it relates to the Son being γεννηθέντα before creation.

It is so hard for you to believe that I am led by the Holy Spirit and the Scriptures and not by the creeds and traditions of any particular camp?

 

[JLB]

I just showed you in post #105.

No you didn't show that Jesus was not begotten before all things.

Here is how γεννηθεντος was used in Matthew 2:1:

Mat 2:1 του G3588 δε G1161[NOW] ιησου G2424[JESUS] γεννηθεντος G1080(G5685)[HAVING BEEN BORN] εν G1722[IN] βηθλεεμ G965 της G3588[BETHLEHEM] ιουδαιας G2449[OF JUDEA,] εν G1722[IN] ημεραις G2250["THE" DAYS] ηρωδου G2264[OF HEROD] του G3588[THE] βασιλεως G935[KING,] ιδου G2400(G5628)[BEHOLD,] μαγοι G3097[MAGI] απο G575[FROM] ανατολων G395["THE" EAST] παρεγενοντο G3854(G5633)[ARRIVED] εις G1519[AT] ιεροσολυμα G2414[JERUSALEM,]

Mat 2:1 Now when Jesus was born in Bethlehem of Judaea in the days of Herod the king, behold, there came wise men from the east to Jerusalem,

This shows Jesus was born in the womb of Mary, as He became flesh.

We all agree that Jesus became flesh.

For Him to become flesh, then it stands that He was Spirit before He became flesh.

What was firstborn before all things is Spirit.

To become flesh, He had to have been born of a woman. Your post only addresses Him being born of a woman.

Jesus was not "born again" as he was never dead in trespasses and sin, but proceeded forth and came from God.

Jesus said unto them, If God were your Father, ye would love me: for I proceeded forth and came from God; neither came I of myself, but he sent me. John 8:42

He is the only begotten Son of God.

He is the firstborn of all creation and is before all things.

• You have presented nothing that would show us that He was not begotten before all things.

This verse clearly shows He was born before all things, as all things consist in Him, and were created by Him.

15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation.16 For by Him all things were created that are in heaven and that are on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers. All things were created through Him and for Him. 17 And He is before all things, and in Him all things consist. Colossians 1:15-17

• He is before all things
• He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation.
• For by Him all things were created.

You would need to present some scriptures that show us that He was not the firstborn of all creation, or that he was not before all things.

Then you would need to explain how all the planets and worlds can consist "in" Him, if He is not God the creator, but merely a man only born of Mary.



JLB