The Nicene Creed

[JLB]

As for the term "Christian," here is what the well respected "gotquestions.org" says:

I don't need mans commentary.

I have the Scriptures.

Yet if anyone suffers as a Christian, let him not be ashamed, but let him glorify God in this matter.
1 Peter 4:16

J

Really JLB? Since you have no Scriptural response to my view you are going to attack the label "Messianic Israelite"?

No attack to it.

Just pointing out that you seem to be more affixed on unbiblical names and doctrines than you are about the scriptures themselves and what they teach.


JLB

 

[JLB]

Really JLB? Since you have no Scriptural response to my view you are going to attack the label "Messianic Israelite"?

As for the term "Christian," here is what the well respected "gotquestions.org" says:

The term Christian was never used by Jesus. The first instance of the word Christian is found in the book of Acts: “The disciples were first called Christians in Antioch” (Acts 11:26). Most Bible scholars agree that it was highly unlikely that the believers themselves thought up the name “Christians.” The early church had other terms for themselves, such as “disciples” (Acts 13:52; Acts 20:1; Acts 21:4) and “saints” (Romans 1:7; 1 Corinthians 16:1; Ephesians 1:1) and “brothers” (1 Corinthians 1:9; 1 Peter 3:8).

The name “Christian,” meaning “belonging to Christ,” appears to have been invented by those outside of the church. It was most likely meant as a derogatory term. Only two other times does the word appear in the New Testament (Acts 26:28; 1 Peter 4:16). The idea that the term Christian was originally a pejorative finds some support in the first epistle of Peter: “However, if you suffer as a Christian, do not be ashamed, but praise God that you bear that name” (1 Peter 4:16).​

The foundation for being "in Christ" or being saved is confessing Jesus as Lord. Romans 10:9-13

When you change the meaning of the biblical word Lord, and redefine it's meaning to mean something other than what the bible means, then you have denied Jesus as being Lord.

Lord in the Old Testament meant The Lord God.
Lord in the New Testament has not changed.

You claim that Jesus is Lord, when you really mean that Jesus is a lord.

You have openly admitted this is your belief, as you have confessed Jesus is not God, by rather He is only a man.

The Lord is clearly a reference to the Lord God of the Old Testament.

The writers of the New Testament, one of which is Peter the Apostle to the Jews, and Paul who is the Apostle to the Gentiles, both open write to us, that Jesus is God our Savior. Not God the Father, but God [the Son] our Savior.

Simon Peter, a bondservant and apostle of Jesus Christ, To those who have obtained like precious faith with us by the righteousness of our God and Savior Jesus Christ: 2 Peter 2:1

not pilfering, but showing all good fidelity, that they may adorn the doctrine of God our Savior in all things...looking for the blessed hope and glorious appearing of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ, Titus 2:10,13


You have redefined what words mean, and claim to have better knowledge and linguistic skills than those chosen to translate the KJV and NKJV, whereby you say that Jesus Christ did not pre-exist before He was born of the woman Mary.


Jesus was begotten of the Father. He is before all things, and is the firstborn of all creation. Colossians 1:15

He is our great God and Savior, and our Redeemer.


JLB

 

[Nick]

Alrighty. This thread has turned into people-bashing. Let's base this on Scripture, and not "gotcha" moments. I will be deleting any further posts that attack other posters. In fact I may go back and delete past posts in this thread to clean it up.

 

[brother Paul]

I read it. The only verse they used that had the word "begotten" in it was John 3:16 which uses μονογενη, not γεννηθεντος. Not helpful at all.

True but it was to provide a scriptural context to the creed in general...

 

[jocor]

Moving on ... the creed states;

And I believe in the Holy Ghost, the Lord and Giver of Life; who proceeds from the Father [and the Son]; who with the Father and the Son together is worshipped and glorified; who spoke by the prophets.
​

I can't find anywhere in Scripture where it says the Holy Spirit is to be "worshipped" and/or "glorified". Can someone please direct me to a verse stating that?

 

[brother Paul]

There is only one God (who is the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit) so when you worship GOD you ARE worshipping the Holy Spirit

 

[jocor]

There is only one God (who is the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit) so when you worship GOD you ARE worshipping the Holy Spirit

Oh, I get it. First you have to devise a doctrine, then you assume things that are not in Scripture to support that doctrine. Why do we read about the Father and Son being worshiped and glorified, but never see the Holy Spirit receiving such?

 

[JLB]

Moving on ... the creed states;

And I believe in the Holy Ghost, the Lord and Giver of Life; who proceeds from the Father [and the Son]; who with the Father and the Son together is worshipped and glorified; who spoke by the prophets.
​

I can't find anywhere in Scripture where it says the Holy Spirit is to be "worshipped" and/or "glorified". Can someone please direct me to a verse stating that?

I definitely don't agree with Catholicism, or it's creeds, but there is some truth in them.

Now the Lord is the Spirit; and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty. 2 Corinthians 3:17

But when He again brings the firstborn into the world, He says: “Let all the angels of God worship Him.”
Hebrews 1:6


JLB

 

[Sinthesis]

JLB, By Grace and others who continue to post doctrinal defenses of Messiah's preexistence or deity. This will be the last time I try to clarify my intent. In the future, I will simply ignore such posts. I am NOT attacking your doctrinal beliefs. I AM attacking the use of γεννηθεντος in the 381 creed in which the authors use it to refer to a time prior to creation. My contention is that γεννηθεντος can ONLY refer to being born of flesh (a post creation event). If you wish to address that issue, then prove to me via lexicons or Greek texts that show it can refer to a time prior to creation.

The 381 Nicene Creed is itself a Greek text that shows γεννηθεντος is not limited to being born of flesh and thus can refer to a time prior to creation. To believe otherwise is to assert that its authors knowingly settled on nonsense.

γεννηθεντος is a NT Greek word. It is defined in Matthew 2:1 as meaning "born" (to a woman). The creed authors had no authority or right to redefine a Biblical word in order to support their belief. They did not "knowingly settle on nonsense". It seems to me they knowingly ignored the Biblical definition.

Please note that γεννηθέντα is the Greek word used in the 381 Nicene Creed. It is of the same root as the word in Matt 2:1, but if you search the NT for how G1080 is used throughout the bible you will see it does not always mean "born" (to a woman) which also confounded Nicodemus.

The 381 Nicene Creed's use of 'begotten of the Father before all worlds' makes perfect sense if you understand Jesus Christ as the Word made flesh, but this is only possible when one accepts Jesus is God. It simply means that the distinction between the Father and the Son within the Godhead pre-existed all creation, as one would expect from an eternal distinction.

Jhn 1:1 ¶ In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
Jhn 1:2 - The same was in the beginning with God.
Jhn 1:3 - All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.​

 

[GodsGrace]

Please note that γεννηθέντα is the Greek word used in the 381 Nicene Creed. It is of the same root as the word in Matt 2:1, but if you search the NT for how G1080 is used throughout the bible you will see it does not always mean "born" (to a woman) which also confounded Nicodemus.

The 381 Nicene Creed's use of 'begotten of the Father before all worlds' makes perfect sense if you understand Jesus Christ as the Word made flesh, but this is only possible when one accepts Jesus is God. It simply means that the distinction between the Father and the Son within the Godhead pre-existed all creation, as one would expect from an eternal distinction.

Jhn 1:1 ¶ In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
Jhn 1:2 - The same was in the beginning with God.
Jhn 1:3 - All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.​

Hi Sinthesis
I'm reading through before signing off and I think you've pretty much summed up the problem in the highlighted and underlined (mine) in your above post.

Now JLB says he doesn't agree with Catholicism and they do leave much to be questioned and desired, however, the creeds, all of them, do come out of the original church and we do have to thank that church for keeping the faith pure and free of heresies that would have destroyed christianity.

I say this to speak also of the Holy Trinity. Nowhere is scripture is the Holy Trinity mentioned. it's a CONCEPT that was put together by taking different scripture and making a doctrine (in this case a dogma) out of it. Like for instance Mathew 28:19
The Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit. Who or what is this Holy Spirit? Who is the Son? Are they Gods? Are there three, or is it only one?

The answers are pivotal, of course. If we worship Jesus, He can't be only the "son" of God as Jocor believes - He MUST BE God. Or, we're worshipping a man - even though that man may have the authority from God, the sender of the messiah who comes with that authority from God.

To me the item of highest importance in this conversation is the 1st Commandment.
I don't see how you get around that.

You bring up Jesus as being the Word of God and if that can't be understood, the rest is difficult.
If Jesus is the Word, He HAD to be present with God from always.

Wondering

 

[GodsGrace]

Jocor,
Could you please explain what it means to you that Jesus is the "Word" of God?

Also, you posted a scripture once showing how Yahweh gives Jesus the authority, as Messiah. I can't remember it. Could you please repost? Also, you can't take one scripture out of the entire bible and make a doctrine out of it. Isn't this one of the first things you learn in exegesis?

And, I've never really understood how you get around the 1st Commandment - but this thread is not about that, so okay, drop it.

But the Word does go to Begotten of the Father, which means Jesus WHEN HE WAS BORN AS MAN. This, I think, would answer your post no. 46 and 47. YESHUA was BEGOTTEN when He was born as man.
is this how you understand this? It would be right. Jesus, the SON as the second person of the Trinity (which you don't believe, hence the difficulty) ALWAYS existed, but Jesus, the man who was born 2,000 years ago was begotten.

He came down from heaven and was incarnate, made flesh. (carne=meat).

If it's been answered, I'm sorry - you could disregard or advise the post no.

Wondering

 

[GodsGrace]

The only reason I brought up "made" was because the creed contradicted itself by saying the Son was "begotten, not made" and later said the Son "was made man".

Jocor,
It's too late for this, I just want to say that you can't stick to every word like that.
Jesus was begotten and made man.
No problem.
Begotten goes to the nature of Jesus - one in being with the Father.
Made man just means He became one of us. Leaving heaven and coming here.

 

[jocor]

I definitely don't agree with Catholicism, or it's creeds, but there is some truth in them.

Now the Lord is the Spirit; and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty. 2 Corinthians 3:17

But when He again brings the firstborn into the world, He says: “Let all the angels of God worship Him.”
Hebrews 1:6


JLB

When I asked my question in post #145, I had the Holy Spirit as a third person in mind which is what the creed seems to be teaching.
By giving me 2Co 3:17, you seem to be implying/teaching that the Lord" (Yeshua) is the "Spirit" (the Holy Spirit). Is that correct?
If so, how does that harmonize with the trinity doctrine as portrayed in the symbol below where the Son "Is Not" The Holy Spirit"?

 

[jocor]

Please note that γεννηθέντα is the Greek word used in the 381 Nicene Creed. It is of the same root as the word in Matt 2:1, but if you search the NT for how G1080 is used throughout the bible you will see it does not always mean "born" (to a woman) which also confounded Nicodemus.

The 381 Nicene Creed's use of 'begotten of the Father before all worlds' makes perfect sense if you understand Jesus Christ as the Word made flesh, but this is only possible when one accepts Jesus is God. It simply means that the distinction between the Father and the Son within the Godhead pre-existed all creation, as one would expect from an eternal distinction.

Jhn 1:1 ¶ In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
Jhn 1:2 - The same was in the beginning with God.
Jhn 1:3 - All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.​

I agree that G1080 can be used for being born in a figurative sense (being "born" again), but that, too, is referring to a post creation phenomenon. Do you know of a verse where G1080 was used for a pre-creation phenomenon?

Even if I were a trinitarian and believed he preexisted eternally, I still would not believe he was "begotten" (γεννηθέντα) before creation because that word does not bear that meaning. The phase "begotten of the Father" is Scriptural, but when the words "before all worlds" is added, the entire phrase becomes unscriptural.

 

[brother Paul]

Oh, I get it. First you have to devise a doctrine, then you assume things that are not in Scripture to support that doctrine. Why do we read about the Father and Son being worshiped and glorified, but never see the Holy Spirit receiving such?[

IS the Holy Spirit God? You tell me....

 

[jocor]

Jocor,
Could you please explain what it means to you that Jesus is the "Word" of God?

Simply put, to me it means that the Father's spoken words and thoughts are embodied in Yeshua. He is the fulfillment of Father Yahweh's words as given in the OT and as spoken to bring His Son into a physical existence in Mary's womb (He spoke his Son into existence miraculously).

Also, you posted a scripture once showing how Yahweh gives Jesus the authority, as Messiah. I can't remember it. Could you please repost?

Mt 28:18; 1Co 15:27; Eph 1:20-22; Heb 2:8; 1Pe 3:22

Also, you can't take one scripture out of the entire bible and make a doctrine out of it. Isn't this one of the first things you learn in exegesis?

I agree. What verse are you referring to?

But the Word does go to Begotten of the Father, which means Jesus WHEN HE WAS BORN AS MAN. This, I think, would answer your post no. 46 and 47. YESHUA was BEGOTTEN when He was born as man.
is this how you understand this? It would be right.

Correct!

 

[brother Paul]

When I asked my question in post #145, I had the Holy Spirit as a third person in mind which is what the creed seems to be teaching.
By giving me 2Co 3:17, you seem to be implying/teaching that the Lord" (Yeshua) is the "Spirit" (the Holy Spirit). Is that correct?
If so, how does that harmonize with the trinity doctrine as portrayed in the symbol below where the Son "Is Not" The Holy Spirit"?
is

Because "the Lord" here does not mean He is Yeshua but that He is YHVH (the Lord)

 

[jocor]

Jocor,
It's too late for this, I just want to say that you can't stick to every word like that.
Jesus was begotten and made man.

I agree, but the creed says, "begotten, not made".

 

[JLB]

By giving me 2Co 3:17, you seem to be implying/teaching that the Lord" (Yeshua) is the "Spirit" (the Holy Spirit).

I'm implying, saying, teaching what the scripture says word for word.

The Lord Jesus is The Spirit of the Lord.

Now the Lord is the Spirit; and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty. 2 Corinthians 3:17


JLB

 

[jocor]

Because "the Lord" here does not mean He is Yeshua but that He is YHVH (the Lord)

You mean "YHVH" (the Father)?