The Pentacostal Movement

[Sparkey]

Pardon my manner of speech, some who do not know the old man known as Sparrow may not be familiar with the way I try to get things across. I will try to make my thought clear, but pardon me if it seems that Old Man River meanders along the way.

We are told to chase spiritual things [as if in a veritable race]. Let me quickly run to my favorite tool (The Blueletter Bible Online) and see if I can find/prove/expand that allegation. The quote is from something Paul said when he was providing instruction to the flock at Corinth: "Follow after charity [love], and desire spiritual gifts..." He continued to teach the principle of Prophecy over Tongues to those at Corinth, but my thought that we are commanded to "chase spiritual gifts" is made by examination of the meaning of one word that Paul chose:

Desire Spiritual Gifts:
DESIRE: ζηλόω Transliteration: zēloō


1) to burn with zeal

a) to be heated or to boil with envy, hatred, anger

1) in a good sense, to be zealous in the pursuit of good​

b) to desire earnestly, pursue

1) to desire one earnestly, to strive after, busy one's self about him

2) to exert one's self for one (that he may not be torn from me)

3) to be the object of the zeal of others, to be zealously sought after
​

c) to envy

________________________________

Those able to hear what the Spirit says to the Church understand the nature of maturing in the Lord. We learn to expect to stretch as we grow. Challenge is given so that our hands are lifted to the Lord and it is by His power that we overcome. These basic truths that surround every element of the Christian walk are no less true here. One of the Gifts of the Holy Spirit is the Discernment of Spirits. It is a gift of revelation, similar but different from the other 2 revelatory gifts, "The Gift of Knowledge," and "The Gift of Wisdom."

Paul's exortation that we zēloō spiritual gifts applies to the Gift of Discernment too. When I consider that scripture the image of a dog-track race comes to mind. I see greyhounds completely focused on that mechanical rabbit as they chase after the target. We are to zēloō it. Now, part of that mind set includes the fact that we don't yet fully have, have not yet fully apprehended all that God wants for us. If we were fully exercized and mature in the Gift of Discernment, where comes the need to chase or desire more?

This then is the choice morsel that I would like to bring to our table before our King. That we continue to chase after Spiritual things and forget not the love and grace that we have for each other who share our meal. The Gift of Discernment of Spirits does not operate through the ear, so that if we hear something that sounds like blasphemy of the Holy Spirit from the mouth of a mocker we can't base our judgment solely upon what we heard. It does not operate through the eye, so that when we see a brother lay his hands upon a dog and command, "Recieve ye the Holy Spirit," we cannot base our judgment solely upon what we have witnessed. We are told that we are not to judge by hearing nor by sight but by to make righteous judgments. This process is prophesied to end with our ability demonstrated: "Know ye not that you will judge angels?" Such is too wonderful for me, but it is part and parcel of the Promise that is ours as we grow together.

Surely, some of the things that we hear or see may very well be characteristic of sin, but the Discernment of the Spirit, given by God through the gift is more than our rational thought and involves revelation by the Spirit of God to our inner man. I'll return to thread later after we have had a moment to digest this thought. It is my hope that we can be blessed here, as we together ask the Lord to provide more for His children, joined in peace before Him.

~Sparrow

 

[Hitch]

"You all need a Holy Spirit enema, up your rear ends..."

that greatly differs from:

"You need the Holy Spirit up your butt."

These differ slightly if at all.

 

[Sam21]

I agree Jason. Things seem to have gotten blown out of proportion very quickly in this thread. Too much condemnation has been passed around due to miscommunication.

It's a difficult position to lovingly discern something without being judgmental.

And as far as that one comment, about the Holy Spirit and body part, what was truly said was something along the lines of:

"You all need a Holy Spirit enema, up your rear ends..."

that greatly differs from:

"You need the Holy Spirit up your butt."

Look at how quickly this statement was taken out of context. I think that Mrs. Hinn chose her words very poorly, but I understand what she is saying even though I think it was said in poor taste.

This is why it is so important not to judge so quickly. This misconstruing of words is the absolute perfect example. :yes

I see your point,you want to defend Mrs Hinn. I have nothing at all against Mrs Hinn, but instead of just believing that she chose the wrong words why is it not more probable that she said what the spirit gave her to say but it was not the Holy Spirit? What she said would make the angels bluss. Remember that her husband under the same anointing stated that Castro would die in the 90s, it seems that God has kept Castro alive in order to convince christians that the anointing he spoke under was not the Holy Spirit. Remember, I am not picking on the persons, I believe there is a false anointing mixed in and christians are afraid to speak against it...clay mixed with iron.

 

[Hitch]

I see your point,you want to defend Mrs Hinn. I have nothing at all against Mrs Hinn, but instead of just believing that she chose the wrong words why is it not more probable that she said what the spirit gave her to say but it was not the Holy Spirit? What she said would make the angels bluss. Remember that her husband under the same anointing stated that Castro would die in the 90s, it seems that God has kept Castro alive in order to convince christians that the anointing he spoke under was not the Holy Spirit. Remember, I am not picking on the persons,

I dont get this; Hinn makes a bold prediction under his claim to be speaking for the Lord , predictably it fails, is Hinn accountable or not ?

, I believe there is a false anointing mixed in and christians are afraid to speak against it...clay mixed with iron.

 

[John Zain]

I think it would be helpful for us to be able to recognize the difference between those being led by the Holy Spirit and those being led by another spirit.

I think it would be helpful to consider ...

1 John 4:
1 Beloved, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits, whether they are of God;
because many false prophets have gone out into the world.
2 By this you know the Spirit of God:
Every spirit that confesses that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is of God,
3 and every spirit that does not confess that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is not of God.

To clarify for some:
Everyone agrees the man Jesus Christ was born into the world.
But, this is talking about God being born into the world.
John is speaking to Christians who knew Jesus was/is God.

 

[Sam21]

I dont get this; Hinn makes a bold prediction under his claim to be speaking for the Lord , predictably it fails, is Hinn accountable or not ?

Hinn was NOT held accountable, it was just considered a bo bo. The point I am trying to make is that if Hinn actually heard a spirit speak to him(and I believe Hinn told the truth when he said this was told to him)then that proves that there is a false anointing involved with Hinn. Now he could(I suppose)still be operating in the Holy Spirit part of the time...clay mixed with iron, it is rampant in the pentecostal movement in my opinion.

 

[Alabaster]

Pardon my manner of speech, some who do not know the old man known as Sparrow may not be familiar with the way I try to get things across. I will try to make my thought clear, but pardon me if it seems that Old Man River meanders along the way.

We are told to chase spiritual things [as if in a veritable race]. Let me quickly run to my favorite tool (The Blueletter Bible Online) and see if I can find/prove/expand that allegation. The quote is from something Paul said when he was providing instruction to the flock at Corinth: "Follow after charity [love], and desire spiritual gifts..." He continued to teach the principle of Prophecy over Tongues to those at Corinth, but my thought that we are commanded to "chase spiritual gifts" is made by examination of the meaning of one word that Paul chose:

Desire Spiritual Gifts:
DESIRE: ζηλόω Transliteration: zēloō


1) to burn with zeal

a) to be heated or to boil with envy, hatred, anger

1) in a good sense, to be zealous in the pursuit of good​

b) to desire earnestly, pursue

1) to desire one earnestly, to strive after, busy one's self about him

2) to exert one's self for one (that he may not be torn from me)

3) to be the object of the zeal of others, to be zealously sought after
​

c) to envy

________________________________

Those able to hear what the Spirit says to the Church understand the nature of maturing in the Lord. We learn to expect to stretch as we grow. Challenge is given so that our hands are lifted to the Lord and it is by His power that we overcome. These basic truths that surround every element of the Christian walk are no less true here. One of the Gifts of the Holy Spirit is the Discernment of Spirits. It is a gift of revelation, similar but different from the other 2 revelatory gifts, "The Gift of Knowledge," and "The Gift of Wisdom."

Paul's exortation that we zēloō spiritual gifts applies to the Gift of Discernment too. When I consider that scripture the image of a dog-track race comes to mind. I see greyhounds completely focused on that mechanical rabbit as they chase after the target. We are to zēloō it. Now, part of that mind set includes the fact that we don't yet fully have, have not yet fully apprehended all that God wants for us. If we were fully exercized and mature in the Gift of Discernment, where comes the need to chase or desire more?

This then is the choice morsel that I would like to bring to our table before our King. That we continue to chase after Spiritual things and forget not the love and grace that we have for each other who share our meal. The Gift of Discernment of Spirits does not operate through the ear, so that if we hear something that sounds like blasphemy of the Holy Spirit from the mouth of a mocker we can't base our judgment solely upon what we heard. It does not operate through the eye, so that when we see a brother lay his hands upon a dog and command, "Recieve ye the Holy Spirit," we cannot base our judgment solely upon what we have witnessed. We are told that we are not to judge by hearing nor by sight but by to make righteous judgments. This process is prophesied to end with our ability demonstrated: "Know ye not that you will judge angels?" Such is too wonderful for me, but it is part and parcel of the Promise that is ours as we grow together.

Surely, some of the things that we hear or see may very well be characteristic of sin, but the Discernment of the Spirit, given by God through the gift is more than our rational thought and involves revelation by the Spirit of God to our inner man. I'll return to thread later after we have had a moment to digest this thought. It is my hope that we can be blessed here, as we together ask the Lord to provide more for His children, joined in peace before Him.

~Sparrow

 

[Alabaster]

Hinn was NOT held accountable, it was just considered a bo bo. The point I am trying to make is that if Hinn actually heard a spirit speak to him(and I believe Hinn told the truth when he said this was told to him)then that proves that there is a false anointing involved with Hinn. Now he could(I suppose)still be operating in the Holy Spirit part of the time...clay mixed with iron, it is rampant in the pentecostal movement in my opinion.

Even anointed people will in their exuberance speak from the flesh. Do you actually know whether or not Hinn actually said that what he predicted was a prophetic word from God?

We can all say something that we think God may be saying. That is the flesh talking at times. Does that make us false? Does that mean we are listening to the enemy?

Sometimes the problem exists in the hearer, attributing prophecy to anything a man says. We mustn't be too quick to depose people in their giftings.

When God speaks, the mind acts as a filter, and sometimes the message gets a bit off-track. I have seen that happen when God told a woman I know and love that the Lord was about to take her home. She began to discuss with her husband what he would do if she died suddenly, and had some wonderful discussions with him about everything. Then two days later, her husband died before her eyes while visiting family. She admits that the Lord told her the truth but her mind filtered it out. Does that make her false? No, it makes her a believer that gets it wrong sometimes.

 

[theLords]

I see your point,you want to defend Mrs Hinn. I have nothing at all against Mrs Hinn, but instead of just believing that she chose the wrong words why is it not more probable that she said what the spirit gave her to say but it was not the Holy Spirit? What she said would make the angels bluss. Remember that her husband under the same anointing stated that Castro would die in the 90s, it seems that God has kept Castro alive in order to convince christians that the anointing he spoke under was not the Holy Spirit. Remember, I am not picking on the persons, I believe there is a false anointing mixed in and christians are afraid to speak against it...clay mixed with iron.

My point is not to defend Mrs. Hinn. Jesus Christ is her lawyer. She doesn't need me to defend her. I don't even know anything about her except that I am no fan of her ex-husband's work Therefore, I don't have an opinion of her due to a lack of knowledge. My point was that if I had jumped on the band wagon of judging what was said I would have made an erroneous statement, and I alone would be held responsible for my sin. Hence, the reason I am not jumping to judge or condemn anything.

She made a statement about allowing the Holy Spirit to clear us out of all junk in order to live for Him. She said it in absolutely poor taste and if I was sitting in that service I probably would have cringed hearing it. She should have said what was meant instead of placing a dramatic flair on it. Something I've learned in academic writing is: the audience prefers clarity to cleverness. Mrs. Hinn violated this rule. The angels in my opinion would have said a prayer for her sake and praised God for the love He shows undeserving sinners.

It appears to me that she spoke in the flesh. Something I have heard many respected Christians do. Something that I have done, despite my incessant pleading that the Holy Spirit control my mouth as I offer advice in His name. Guess what? Despite my panicked prayers, I still have mess ups because I am growing. Salvation is a process and crucifying the flesh is a daily act. That's the reason there is grace. How can anyone judge Mrs. Hinn's heart?

Your early statements of calling everything demonic is a dangerous playground to be in. Even Christ simply told the Pharisees to be weary they did not speak blasphemy, but did not condemn any man.

There's absolutely nothing wrong with saying something is false, but to call it demonic is not something I'm willing to do. It is more probable that the false anointing, as we have been discussing, is coming from the flesh.

All of my posts, have been nothing but my own opinions. You have stated God has been showing you the things that you have mentioned, and I can say that God has been showing me how to execute proper judgement. Remember not even Michael condemned Satan.

When we sow in judgement, we reap in judgement. There is proof of this even in this thread. Can you see it?

 

[theLords]

I think this women displays a beautiful example of Godly discernment (not accepting sin) while showing grace and love (to build up and not tear down).

Suzanne Hinn preaches: “Holy Ghost Enema!” « A Wife’s Submission

I'm not picking any sides. I simply desire to abide in the love of Christ.

 

[Sparkey]

I think this women displays a beautiful example of Godly discernment (not accepting sin) while showing grace and love (to build up and not tear down).

Suzanne Hinn preaches: “Holy Ghost Enema!” « A Wife’s Submission

I'm not picking any sides. I simply desire to abide in the love of Christ.

Those unfamiliar with the gift of Prophecy may not understand the way that the word bubbles up in some individuals. They may think that each word is selected for each person who us used in that particular gift. I'm not saying that Susanne Hinn was or was not used in this manner but only speaking about what others who have prophesied have said to me personally. Sometimes what happens is that a "phrase is dropped," into the mind and a familiar desire to stand in the anointing that accompanies it urges the beginning of the utterance. What happens is that as they act on the unction of the Holy Spirit, and begin to speak out in faith, the full message comes. To others, the communication is described as more visual and pictorial, not in words but given in concept. Now that I have watched the video in question it becomes clear that she was preaching the truth as it was revealed to her. It seemed to me that she was speaking to reveal what she understood.

It is easy to understand that there are polite ways of speaking that are acceptable and preferred over the more vulgar manners of speech which, frankly, we all have in common. Even Isaiah came from the presence of God having declared essentially, "I am undone!" He pronounced a curse upon himself saying in the manner of the prophet, "Woe is me," and continued to confess the truth, "I am a man of unclean lips, from a people of unclean lips." Isaiah was a statesman and a "prophet's prophet". He understood the way of speaking that ambassadors and statesmen who speak before dignitaries do.

Saying that somebody isn't anointed by the Holy Spirit because she has a potty mouth is like looking in the mirror and then promptly forgetting what we look like. Are we flesh? You've not seen me personally but as I sit here typing, if I had a video -- you too would be convinced that this old man who needs a shave is nothing other. Did I recieve instruction from my mother when I was five-years old about not having a potty-mouth? Yeah, I did. Does that mean that today I have mastered my tongue and every word that comes from me is harnessed rightly to his Spirit? Sadly, no. I confess and would ask others who are temples of His Spirit to remember that they too are encased in flesh.

Let's set the issue of one person aside then and consider God and His actions as they can be seen today through those who try to serve him from their hearts, yes?

 

[Sam21]

Even anointed people will in their exuberance speak from the flesh. Do you actually know whether or not Hinn actually said that what he predicted was a prophetic word from God?

We can all say something that we think God may be saying. That is the flesh talking at times. Does that make us false? Does that mean we are listening to the enemy?

Sometimes the problem exists in the hearer, attributing prophecy to anything a man says. We mustn't be too quick to depose people in their giftings.

When God speaks, the mind acts as a filter, and sometimes the message gets a bit off-track. I have seen that happen when God told a woman I know and love that the Lord was about to take her home. She began to discuss with her husband what he would do if she died suddenly, and had some wonderful discussions with him about everything. Then two days later, her husband died before her eyes while visiting family. She admits that the Lord told her the truth but her mind filtered it out. Does that make her false? No, it makes her a believer that gets it wrong sometimes.

Been there,done that. We all have probably had the experience of saying,"God told me this or that", and then we grew a little bit more and realized that most of the time when we sensed a voice speaking to the mind that it was NOT the Lord, I have taken all that into account. When Hinn proclaimed that the Spirit told him that Castro would die in the 90s this was not a slip by a novice, this was a man who had risen in the christian world because of an "anointing" and that anointing told Hinn something that proves beyond any doubt that that anointing was not God. At some point we need to stop making excuses and recognize that there is a false anointing in the pentecostal movement and has always been there.

 

[Sam21]

My point is not to defend Mrs. Hinn. Jesus Christ is her lawyer. She doesn't need me to defend her. I don't even know anything about her except that I am no fan of her ex-husband's work Therefore, I don't have an opinion of her due to a lack of knowledge. My point was that if I had jumped on the band wagon of judging what was said I would have made an erroneous statement, and I alone would be held responsible for my sin. Hence, the reason I am not jumping to judge or condemn anything.

She made a statement about allowing the Holy Spirit to clear us out of all junk in order to live for Him. She said it in absolutely poor taste and if I was sitting in that service I probably would have cringed hearing it. She should have said what was meant instead of placing a dramatic flair on it. Something I've learned in academic writing is: the audience prefers clarity to cleverness. Mrs. Hinn violated this rule. The angels in my opinion would have said a prayer for her sake and praised God for the love He shows undeserving sinners.

It appears to me that she spoke in the flesh. Something I have heard many respected Christians do. Something that I have done, despite my incessant pleading that the Holy Spirit control my mouth as I offer advice in His name. Guess what? Despite my panicked prayers, I still have mess ups because I am growing. Salvation is a process and crucifying the flesh is a daily act. That's the reason there is grace. How can anyone judge Mrs. Hinn's heart?

Your early statements of calling everything demonic is a dangerous playground to be in. Even Christ simply told the Pharisees to be weary they did not speak blasphemy, but did not condemn any man.

There's absolutely nothing wrong with saying something is false, but to call it demonic is not something I'm willing to do. It is more probable that the false anointing, as we have been discussing, is coming from the flesh.

All of my posts, have been nothing but my own opinions. You have stated God has been showing you the things that you have mentioned, and I can say that God has been showing me how to execute proper judgement. Remember not even Michael condemned Satan.

When we sow in judgement, we reap in judgement. There is proof of this even in this thread. Can you see it?

What I see is that when you come against demonic strong holds they fight back, this is nothing new to me. Proper judgement always exposes what is contrary to God, it will never conform to it. As a believer you do realize that any spirit that does not conform to the word of God has to be demonic,there is no neutral ground. You seem to me to be changing the scripture in a subtle sort of way. David exposed himself? The bible says that his wife made that statement out of contempt,not that David actually exposed himself(by saying this you are somewhat condoning foolish behavior). You say, Michael did not condemn satan,however the context says that Michael did not bring a railing accusation against satan because "the Lord rebuke you"was enough,this place in scripture was not about condemnation(satan was already condemned)but about confrontation. Again you use subtlety to make it appear that Michael would not call satan out on his actions(and we are not to either) when the bible was not saying that at all, the job of Michael was to confront satan,Jesus did the condemning,you misuse the word of God, is it intentional? No offense just wondering.

 

[theLords]

What I see is that when you come against demonic strong holds they fight back, this is nothing new to me. Proper judgement always exposes what is contrary to God, it will never conform to it. As a believer you do realize that any spirit that does not conform to the word of God has to be demonic,there is no neutral ground. You seem to me to be changing the scripture in a subtle sort of way. David exposed himself? The bible says that his wife made that statement out of contempt,not that David actually exposed himself(by saying this you are somewhat condoning foolish behavior). You say, Michael did not condemn satan,however the context says that Michael did not bring a railing accusation against satan because "the Lord rebuke you"was enough,this place in scripture was not about condemnation(satan was already condemned)but about confrontation. Again you use subtlety to make it appear that Michael would not call satan out on his actions(and we are not to either) when the bible was not saying that at all, the job of Michael was to confront satan,Jesus did the condemning,you misuse the word of God, is it intentional? No offense just wondering.

I think it's very clear you are not interested in discussing a topic as you have previously stated, but are more interested in beating your gavel. Nonetheless, I will show you the respect of Christ, for His sake, despite the hostility you choose to speak to me with. Adding in, "no offense" seems rather counter productive, no? Obviously, you realized your statements could cause offense. Again I state, do you honestly think anyone can take you seriously when you insult them? You have been on this forum for two months, but have judged this board as unBiblically rooted? Is this how you dwell in the House of God amongst His people? Honestly, your demeanor is becoming problematic when trying to have a meaningful discussion.

With that said, let's break down this post so the truth can be in the light (instead of slander):

What I see is that when you come against demonic strong holds they fight back, this is nothing new to me.

This seems to be nothing more than an insult based on my previous post all because I refuse to take sides of (A) condemning and (B) blessing, but am choosing to abide in love and defer to the Master. Outside of that context: This statement is truth.

Proper discernment always exposes what is contrary to God, it will never conform to it.

Now, I changed the word "judgement" to "discernment" to avoid this statement taking on ambiguity. Passing judgment can also be a sin, but discernment speaks of a holy judgment rooted in God's love. I understand it's simply semantics, but like I said for the sake of clarity... Within this context: This statement is truth.

As a believer you do realize that any spirit that does not conform to the word of God has to be demonic,there is no neutral ground.

As a believer do you realize that not everything is black and white? I, as a Spirit-filled believer, have a spirit. My spirit is not the Holy Spirit, nor is it of the devil. It is my own infused with the Spirit. So, it truly seems that there are 3 types of spirits. The Holy Spirit, demonic spirits, and our own spirit (wo)man. A Christian can very easily not conform to the Word of God out of ignorance, and not be considered demonic. It's about the spirit not the letter.

Do you now see why condemning something as demonic is walking in dangerous territory?

Think of it this way. There are 3 types of dreams we can have. God-given dreams, demonic dreams, and soul dreams. I'm going to assume that most people are familiar with what each type of dream looks like simply for the sake of not veering off topic, but if anyone would like clarity over the matter I am more than willing. With that said, we can see that we can't claim that all dreams either come from God or Satan. Do we accredit God when we have a dream about eating at Chipotle? Do we credit Satan if we have a dream that is sexual in nature? No, we use our discernment to understand that these are most likely soul dreams, our mind's way of processing daily information and cleansing us from any defilement. We cannot be quick to condemn everything as from God or from Satan. For we as Christian humans, are born of God but still encased in the flesh. Is flesh evil? Absolutely not. To say there are only two options is too condemn the flesh as evil.

You seem to me to be changing the scripture in a subtle sort of way.

It seems to be you are judging me as changing the Scriptures based on the fact that your views do not align with mine (I hope there is not a grudge based on the Women as Pastors thread). I don't find this amusing in the least bit. Accusing another of changing Scripture is a serious charge. If you stick around here, you'll find that not everyone sees things the same, but if we are rooted in love with fruits of the Spirit we are all one in Christ. Jesus Christ is perfect theology. And if we recognize this we will respect our fellow Brethren.

David exposed himself? The bible says that his wife made that statement out of contempt,not that David actually exposed himself(by saying this you are somewhat condoning foolish behavior).

I don't think you are understanding what I am saying. As it seems you glossed over what I am saying. Do you understand why, according to Jewish custom, the important purpose of Christ mentioning this: “But while he was still a long way off, his father saw him and was filled with compassion for him; he ran to his son, threw his arms around him and kissed him." (Luke 15: 20 NIV) specific (underlined) part in the story? Do you believe Ezekiel actually went around in his birthday suit? If you understand those references then in the same context, David was uncovered. Have you ever seen a Jewish man dance for Jehovah God? It's a sacred worship.

Clarke's Commentary on the Bible
To bless his household - This was according to the custom of the patriarchs, who were priests in their own families. It is worthy of remark, that David is called patriarch by Stephen, Acts 2:29, though living upwards of four hundred years after the termination of the patriarchal age.

How glorious was the king of Israel - This is a strong irony. From what Michal says, it is probable that David used some violent gesticulations, by means of which some parts of his body became uncovered. But it is very probable that we cannot guess all that was implied in this reproach.

2 Samuel 6:20 When David returned home to bless his household, Michal daughter of Saul came out to meet him and said, "How the king of Israel has distinguished himself today, disrobing in the sight of the slave girls of his servants as any vulgar fellow would!"

It seems that various Bible commentators believe in different ways. I happen to theologically believe that David danced unabashedly in the joy of the Lord, was condemned for it, and the condemner was condemned. David's heart in this matter was willing to allow himself to be seen as undignified for the sake of God's glory because of His love for God. Jehovah God saw his heart and stood up for his sake. If we could only all desire to be like David, people after God's own heart.

You say, Michael did not condemn satan,however the context says that Michael did not bring a railing accusation against satan because "the Lord rebuke you"was enough,this place in scripture was not about condemnation(satan was already condemned)but about confrontation.

Is accusation not condemnation? It's that semantics issue again.

ac·cu·sa·tion/ˌakyəˈzāSHən/Noun
1. A charge or claim that someone has done something illegal or wrong.
2. The action or process of making such a charge or claim.

So, now are you telling me that Michael did not bring a claim (someone who has done something illegal or wrong) against an already condemned being? So Michael did not accuse the already accused being? This doesn't seem to make sense now does it? That means, that we must look deeper into what is truly happening in this passage and what God is saying to us. This is a holy example of God's sovereignty in passing all judgments. Only God can pass judgement (remember our semantics lesson from earlier). Archangel Michael was leading in example as to how the servant of God must conduct himself when confronted with open evil. Just as Christ, we are all called to do what we see the Father do, and speak what we hear the Father speak. Michael demonstrates this. The meat of the Word is delicious, might I add.

Jesus did the condemning,you misuse the word of God, is it intentional? No offense just wondering.

Bingo. It seems I am aligning myself succinctly with the Word of God, despite your accusation of misuse against me. I hope we can conduct ourselves in a civil manner from this point on.

Not everything is black and white. And not everyone who disagrees with you is demonic.

 

[Hitch]

Hinn was NOT held accountable, it was just considered a bo bo. The point I am trying to make is that if Hinn actually heard a spirit speak to him(and I believe Hinn told the truth when he said this was told to him)then that proves that there is a false anointing involved with Hinn. Now he could(I suppose)still be operating in the Holy Spirit part of the time...clay mixed with iron, it is rampant in the pentecostal movement in my opinion.

I was getting at this part;

it seems that God has kept Castro alive in order to convince christians that the anointing he spoke under was not the Holy Spirit. Remember, I am not picking on the persons,

Pointing out a gross failure is not picking one someone, but how should he be held accountable if nor personally?

 

[Sam21]

I was getting at this part;



Pointing out a gross failure is not picking one someone, but how should he be held accountable if nor personally?

I thought someone would catch me on that one, in truth it is not possible to point out a false anointing without pointing out the person who practiced in the false anointing. What I meant was that I do not dislike Hinn personally, I have read the first books he wrote and have considered him a brother in the Lord for years, hey I like the guy,however after years of watching and study I am convinced that at times he is under a false anointing that he thinks is God. I am not picking on Hinn because I see many in the pentecostal movement doing the same things.

 

[Alabaster]

Been there,done that. We all have probably had the experience of saying,"God told me this or that", and then we grew a little bit more and realized that most of the time when we sensed a voice speaking to the mind that it was NOT the Lord, I have taken all that into account. When Hinn proclaimed that the Spirit told him that Castro would die in the 90s this was not a slip by a novice, this was a man who had risen in the christian world because of an "anointing" and that anointing told Hinn something that proves beyond any doubt that that anointing was not God. At some point we need to stop making excuses and recognize that there is a false anointing in the pentecostal movement and has always been there.

It isn't a false anointing.

 

[Hitch]

I thought someone would catch me on that one, in truth it is not possible to point out a false anointing without pointing out the person who practiced in the false anointing. What I meant was that I do not dislike Hinn personally, I have read the first books he wrote and have considered him a brother in the Lord for years, hey I like the guy,however after years of watching and study I am convinced that at times he is under a false anointing that he thinks is God. I am not picking on Hinn because I see many in the pentecostal movement doing the same things.

Fine response.

I prefer a plain spoken villain.

 

[Sam21]

I think it's very clear you are not interested in discussing a topic as you have previously stated, but are more interested in beating your gavel. Nonetheless, I will show you the respect of Christ, for His sake, despite the hostility you choose to speak to me with. Adding in, "no offense" seems rather counter productive, no? Obviously, you realized your statements could cause offense. Again I state, do you honestly think anyone can take you seriously when you insult them? You have been on this forum for two months, but have judged this board as unBiblically rooted? Is this how you dwell in the House of God amongst His people? Honestly, your demeanor is becoming problematic when trying to have a meaningful discussion.

With that said, let's break down this post so the truth can be in the light (instead of slander):



This seems to be nothing more than an insult based on my previous post all because I refuse to take sides of (A) condemning and (B) blessing, but am choosing to abide in love and defer to the Master. Outside of that context: This statement is truth.



Now, I changed the word "judgement" to "discernment" to avoid this statement taking on ambiguity. Passing judgment can also be a sin, but discernment speaks of a holy judgment rooted in God's love. I understand it's simply semantics, but like I said for the sake of clarity... Within this context: This statement is truth.



As a believer do you realize that not everything is black and white? I, as a Spirit-filled believer, have a spirit. My spirit is not the Holy Spirit, nor is it of the devil. It is my own infused with the Spirit. So, it truly seems that there are 3 types of spirits. The Holy Spirit, demonic spirits, and our own spirit (wo)man. A Christian can very easily not conform to the Word of God out of ignorance, and not be considered demonic. It's about the spirit not the letter.

Do you now see why condemning something as demonic is walking in dangerous territory?

Think of it this way. There are 3 types of dreams we can have. God-given dreams, demonic dreams, and soul dreams. I'm going to assume that most people are familiar with what each type of dream looks like simply for the sake of not veering off topic, but if anyone would like clarity over the matter I am more than willing. With that said, we can see that we can't claim that all dreams either come from God or Satan. Do we accredit God when we have a dream about eating at Chipotle? Do we credit Satan if we have a dream that is sexual in nature? No, we use our discernment to understand that these are most likely soul dreams, our mind's way of processing daily information and cleansing us from any defilement. We cannot be quick to condemn everything as from God or from Satan. For we as Christian humans, are born of God but still encased in the flesh. Is flesh evil? Absolutely not. To say there are only two options is too condemn the flesh as evil.



It seems to be you are judging me as changing the Scriptures based on the fact that your views do not align with mine (I hope there is not a grudge based on the Women as Pastors thread). I don't find this amusing in the least bit. Accusing another of changing Scripture is a serious charge. If you stick around here, you'll find that not everyone sees things the same, but if we are rooted in love with fruits of the Spirit we are all one in Christ. Jesus Christ is perfect theology. And if we recognize this we will respect our fellow Brethren.



I don't think you are understanding what I am saying. As it seems you glossed over what I am saying. Do you understand why, according to Jewish custom, the important purpose of Christ mentioning this: “But while he was still a long way off, his father saw him and was filled with compassion for him; he ran to his son, threw his arms around him and kissed him." (Luke 15: 20 NIV) specific (underlined) part in the story? Do you believe Ezekiel actually went around in his birthday suit? If you understand those references then in the same context, David was uncovered. Have you ever seen a Jewish man dance for Jehovah God? It's a sacred worship.



It seems that various Bible commentators believe in different ways. I happen to theologically believe that David danced unabashedly in the joy of the Lord, was condemned for it, and the condemner was condemned. David's heart in this matter was willing to allow himself to be seen as undignified for the sake of God's glory because of His love for God. Jehovah God saw his heart and stood up for his sake. If we could only all desire to be like David, people after God's own heart.



Is accusation not condemnation? It's that semantics issue again.



So, now are you telling me that Michael did not bring a claim (someone who has done something illegal or wrong) against an already condemned being? So Michael did not accuse the already accused being? This doesn't seem to make sense now does it? That means, that we must look deeper into what is truly happening in this passage and what God is saying to us. This is a holy example of God's sovereignty in passing all judgments. Only God can pass judgement (remember our semantics lesson from earlier). Archangel Michael was leading in example as to how the servant of God must conduct himself when confronted with open evil. Just as Christ, we are all called to do what we see the Father do, and speak what we hear the Father speak. Michael demonstrates this. The meat of the Word is delicious, might I add.



Bingo. It seems I am aligning myself succinctly with the Word of God, despite your accusation of misuse against me. I hope we can conduct ourselves in a civil manner from this point on.

Not everything is black and white. And not everyone who disagrees with you is demonic.

Civil is the way of God. No offense was because I do not dislike you personally, if my Pastor, best friend, or grandmother, did what you did with the scriptures(producing a personal meaning by ignoring the context)then I would do exactly what I did with you, I carefully pointed out by quote what you wrote and then carefully pointed out the actual statements in context...I am sorry but you ever so cleverly manipulated two places in scripture in order to make it appear to agree with an idea you had...so very sorry but someone needs to tell you if you are in the habit of doing this. About the woman post, I had no idea you were even in it. No disrespect to you, however I have always stood up for the integrity of the word of God. I would rather have people angry at me in this life then to have God angry at me in the next.

 

[theLords]

Civil is the way of God. No offense was because I do not dislike you personally, if my Pastor, best friend, or grandmother, did what you did with the scriptures(producing a personal meaning by ignoring the context)then I would do exactly what I did with you, I carefully pointed out by quote what you wrote and then carefully pointed out the actual statements in context...I am sorry but you ever so cleverly manipulated two places in scripture in order to make it appear to agree with an idea you had...so very sorry but someone needs to tell you if you are in the habit of doing this. About the woman post, I had no idea you were even in it. No disrespect to you, however I have always stood up for the integrity of the word of God. I would rather have people angry at me in this life then to have God angry at me in the next.

It seems we should end the discussion between us here then. It's easy to tell another Christian they are theologically wrong, but much harder to recognize our own misconduct. There's a difference between not agreeing with someone's theology, and out right accusing another Christian of changing the Scripture. It seems that in my 8 months of posting here, you a poster who has been here for 2 months (who I have had very little interaction with), are the only one to ever tell me that I have a habit of doing this. Not only that, but you did so under some rather strong hostility. I think that says it all about the place in which this so-called "correction" is coming from. I did not manipulate anything, you just prefer to see it this way because I don't fit your cookie cutter image of theological beliefs. As I have shown, there are many who believe as I about David. I didn't make it up for personal reasons. There's no anger here, simply the spotlight over some rather speculative behaviors. Do you think God will charge you for not condemning the sin of another before asking you for an account of your own sin? If you can honestly say, that this behavior of yours mimics Christ, well then................ The pharisees stood for the integrity of the Word of God too, but it didn't get them far due to their methods, did it? Christ stands for the integrity of the Word of God, for He is the Word, and it is for Him and with Him that I choose to stand, regardless of the slander thrown against me. The servant is not above of the Master, right? The Jews treated my Beloved the same way. ;)

Since we are called to be peacemakers I don't think there's need to go on. God bless you.