The Pentacostal Movement

[Sam21]

It isn't a false anointing.

Are you speaking from evidence or opinion? If Hinn told the truth then the anointing Hinn was under told him something that was not true, that would make the anointing false. Of course there is always the possibility that the anointing told Hinn nothing and in that case he would just be a liar because he said that the anointing told him something when the anointing did not tell him anything. There is really no way out of this one,something has to be wrong.

 

[Sam21]

It seems we should end the discussion between us here then. It's easy to tell another Christian they are theologically wrong, but much harder to recognize our own misconduct. There's a difference between not agreeing with someone's theology, and out right accusing another Christian of changing the Scripture. It seems that in my 8 months of posting here, you a poster who has been here for 2 months (who I have had very little interaction with), are the only one to ever tell me that I have a habit of doing this. Not only that, but you did so under some rather strong hostility. I think that says it all about the place in which this so-called "correction" is coming from. I did not manipulate anything, you just prefer to see it this way because I don't fit your cookie cutter image of theological beliefs. As I have shown, there are many who believe as I about David. I didn't make it up for personal reasons. There's no anger here, simply the spotlight over some rather speculative behaviors. Do you think God will charge you for not condemning the sin of another before asking you for an account of your own sin? If you can honestly say, that this behavior of yours mimics Christ, well then................ The pharisees stood for the integrity of the Word of God too, but it didn't get them far due to their methods, did it? Christ stands for the integrity of the Word of God, for He is the Word, and it is for Him and with Him that I choose to stand, regardless of the slander thrown against me. The servant is not above of the Master, right? The Jews treated my Beloved the same way. ;)

Since we are called to be peacemakers I don't think there's need to go on. God bless you.

2 Samuel 6:14 and David danced before the Lord with all his might, and he was WEARING PRIEST CLOTHING. You can probably find a commentary that says that David was in his birthday suit because the truth of a commentary depends on the truthfulness of the individual. I am not picking on you, are far as I can tell you are a good brother or sister in the Lord, however you were manipulating scripture(better to find it out now then before the judgment seat of Christ). I mean you no disrespect, if I manipulated a scripture I would want someone to tell me.

 

[theLords]

2 Samuel 6:14 and David danced before the Lord with all his might, and he was WEARING PRIEST CLOTHING. You can probably find a commentary that says that David was in his birthday suit because the truth of a commentary depends on the truthfulness of the individual. I am not picking on you, are far as I can tell you are a good brother or sister in the Lord, however you were manipulating scripture(better to find it out now then before the judgment seat of Christ). I mean you no disrespect, if I manipulated a scripture I would want someone to tell me.

Thank you for this post. I can now see you are not in any way understanding my point. Did I say David was in his birthday suit? Or did I ask you if you thought Isaiah was truly in his birthday suit and the significance of the prodigal son's father running to his son to greet him. These three references are all interconnected within the context of Jewish custom. It's very interesting. I would recommend you digging deeper into it. Understanding the context of the Hebrew culture makes the Word of God come to life in the most fascinating way. I actually made a case to show that David and Isaiah were not in their birthday suits.

I am not manipulating Scripture one bit. You simply are not hearing what I am saying in regards to Scripture as evidenced by your mixing up of my words. It seems there is a major miscommunication between the two of us. Thanks for clarifying this and for this post.

:nod

*Major Disclaimer: I said Ezekiel in all of my previous posts, but I meant to say Isaiah! Forgive that mistake. I was going off of memory.*

 

[Alabaster]

Are you speaking from evidence or opinion? If Hinn told the truth then the anointing Hinn was under told him something that was not true, that would make the anointing false. Of course there is always the possibility that the anointing told Hinn nothing and in that case he would just be a liar because he said that the anointing told him something when the anointing did not tell him anything. There is really no way out of this one,something has to be wrong.

The most likely possibility is that he said what he thought and did not declare it as a "Thus saith the Lord..." He isn't a liar.

 

[Hitch]

Its common in Pentecostal circles to speak about anointing, the move of the Spirit and that sort of thing as though being pentecostal makes you an expert. The reality is often no more than one's getting used to never being challenged.

 

[Alabaster]

2 Samuel 6:20-23 NLT
20 When David returned home to bless his own family, Michal, the daughter of Saul, came out to meet him. She said in disgust, “How distinguished the king of Israel looked today, shamelessly exposing himself to the servant girls like any vulgar person might do!†21 David retorted to Michal, “I was dancing before the Lord, who chose me above your father and all his family! He appointed me as the leader of Israel, the people of the Lord, so I celebrate before the Lord. 22 Yes, and I am willing to look even more foolish than this, even to be humiliated in my own eyes! But those servant girls you mentioned will indeed think I am distinguished!†23 So Michal, the daughter of Saul, remained childless throughout her entire life.

 

[Sam21]

2 Samuel 6:20-23 NLT
20 When David returned home to bless his own family, Michal, the daughter of Saul, came out to meet him. She said in disgust, “How distinguished the king of Israel looked today, shamelessly exposing himself to the servant girls like any vulgar person might do!†21 David retorted to Michal, “I was dancing before the Lord, who chose me above your father and all his family! He appointed me as the leader of Israel, the people of the Lord, so I celebrate before the Lord. 22 Yes, and I am willing to look even more foolish than this, even to be humiliated in my own eyes! But those servant girls you mentioned will indeed think I am distinguished!†23 So Michal, the daughter of Saul, remained childless throughout her entire life.

I have studied the life of David for years,love to read his story, what was your point(was there a point?). There is nothing deep about this,David was the first love of Michal and she actually saved his life, however she did not see him again for years and during that time David married several other women and Michal was given to another man to be his wife. Years later when David became king he wanted Michal back and it appears that she had forgotten David and loved another man, so she was probably not at all happy about being one of many of his wives. When they were first married she was the daughter of the king and David was just a common man, later however David was the king and she was the daughter of a has been king. Possibly for some of those reasons she was not happy with David and because of their original relationship she was not afraid to speak her disgust for his dancing while wearing a priest outfit. The context tells me that she was putting David down by comparing him to a low class person rather than actually making a statement of fact that David was allowing his nakedness to be seen since uncovering nakedness was actually against the law. Michal was one of those people I feel sorry for in the bible,she was the daughter of the king, the sister of Davis's best friend, and she was in love with David, besides all that she went against her father and saved the life of David...I feel that maybe she was not treated fairly in life by her father or David. Maybe she had finally found a little happyness with this other man and then it was broken up, anyway just my thoughts.

 

[Igor]

Hi folks! To start off my post tonight I would like to clearly state that, as far as this thread is concerned, if I am commenting on any particular post I will quote that post. If I do not quote your post, my comment is not about you personally, even if it is about the same subject you also posted on. I hope this will prevent any misunderstandings.

Sam, you said:

Hinn was NOT held accountable, it was just considered a bo bo. The point I am trying to make is that if Hinn actually heard a spirit speak to him(and I believe Hinn told the truth when he said this was told to him)then that proves that there is a false anointing involved with Hinn. Now he could(I suppose)still be operating in the Holy Spirit part of the time...clay mixed with iron, it is rampant in the pentecostal movement in my opinion.

This type of thing bothers me too, that so many people seem to feel this behavior is excusable and should be overlooked. After all, Hinn did say “The Spirit tells me, Fidel Castro will die in the 90's.†and the 90s are long gone with no death of Castro!

Also, if I understood you correctly when you said:

… I do believe that this mixture of "iron and clay" has continued to this day. I see in the pentacostal movement both christians moving in the power of the Spirit of God and other christians moving in what they believe is the power of God but what appears to be demonic spirits...

, you were referring to different individuals being moved by the power of different spirits, not one individual sometimes being directed by the Holy Spirit, sometimes (when publicly prophesying, etc) being directed by some sort of “personal†spirit, and yet other times being directed by demonic spirits. Jesus was speaking of just this thing when he said: “By their fruit you will recognize them. Do people pick grapes from thornbushes, or figs from thistles? Likewise every good tree bears good fruit, but a bad tree bears bad fruit. A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, and a bad tree cannot bear good fruit.†(Jesus, Mathew 7: 16-18, NIV, bold type added) so unless I am misunderstanding this, Jesus himself tells us that a person will not be a true prophet one day, a false one the next, then back to a true prophet again, on and on.

And in Deuteronomy we are told: “You may say to yourselves, "How can we know when a message has not been spoken by the LORD?" If what a prophet proclaims in the name of the LORD does not take place or come true, that is a message the LORD has not spoken. That prophet has spoken presumptuously. Do not be afraid of him.†(Deut 17:21-22, NIV) (By the way, the Hebrew translated here to “Do not be afraid of him†is “guwr†which also means not to dwell or seek hospitality with.)

So it seems to me that once a person, whoever they might be, claims to be giving a revelation from God (i.e. “The Spirit tells me, Fidel Castro will die in the 90's.â€), and that revelation turns out to be false, we are to recognize them as a false prophet and have nothing more to do with them (not dwell or seek hospitality with them). We are not to simply excuse them and go on listening to and following them. If we don’t obey these scriptures, and still listen to what the false prophet says in hopes that the next time his prophesy truly will be from God, how are we to know if it is or not? How can we know which of his future prophesies are from God, and which are from some other spirit? We can’t know, so when we excuse the false prophet and continue to listen in hopes next time the message will truly be from God, we violate this scripture and we open ourselves up to being led astray. This is not condemnation of the person’s heart, it is accusation of false prophesy (or whatever the falsification was). There is a difference.

Sam, I have to agree with you that there is much in the Charismatic movement (as also in many other parts of Christianity) that is not from God. Just to be clear, by your definition I am Charismatic, although I don’t refer to myself that way. I have spiritual gifts and have used them in ways that have been proven to give glory to God. One of those gifts at certain times has been prophesy in the way it has been described here, and the knowledge I was given came true every time. I have “performed†miracles (although I don’t like to use the word “perform†because the miracles had absolutely nothing to do with anything I did beyond following God’s word, and only God's word, to the letter!) and these miracles were clearly visible, supernatural, instantaneous, and verified by outside sources. But all the glory was always to God and the only dramatic show was the power of God itself. I only mention it here to establish that I am not anti-Charismatic nor ignorant of spiritual gifts. I have also directly faced a demon and rebuked it (and don’t care to ever have that experience again!), so I know that demonic spirits are very real and can have very real influences on us when we allow them. But, like I spoke of in another thread lately, this tolerance that we see among many Christians of those who falsely prophesy, perform false miracles, and bring attention and glory to themselves is truly troubling to me as well.

This is the main reason I don’t openly identify myself as Charismatic, and it is a shame that this has to be so! It is incumbent on our leaders to denounce these practices and expose them for what they are in order to give credibility to us all!

 

[Sam21]

Its common in Pentecostal circles to speak about anointing, the move of the Spirit and that sort of thing as though being pentecostal makes you an expert. The reality is often no more than one's getting used to never being challenged.

I remember being a child and this fellow came on the news because of a whole line of crimes he had commited. In the brief movie of him they showed this cubby old looking guy with a grin from ear to ear that looked like a con man for sure. Well he was standing before this huge crowd and he said,"I am pentecostal from the crown of my head to the sole of my feet" as he said this he did a little dance and it just brought the house down. Even as a child I was wondering why those people could not see that he was a crook, it seemed to me that the magic word was pentecostal.

 

[Sam21]

Hi folks! To start off my post tonight I would like to clearly state that, as far as this thread is concerned, if I am commenting on any particular post I will quote that post. If I do not quote your post, my comment is not about you personally, even if it is about the same subject you also posted on. I hope this will prevent any misunderstandings.

Sam, you said:


This type of thing bothers me too, that so many people seem to feel this behavior is excusable and should be overlooked. After all, Hinn did say “The Spirit tells me, Fidel Castro will die in the 90's.†and the 90s are long gone with no death of Castro!

Also, if I understood you correctly when you said:
, you were referring to different individuals being moved by the power of different spirits, not one individual sometimes being directed by the Holy Spirit, sometimes (when publicly prophesying, etc) being directed by some sort of “personal†spirit, and yet other times being directed by demonic spirits. Jesus was speaking of just this thing when he said: “By their fruit you will recognize them. Do people pick grapes from thornbushes, or figs from thistles? Likewise every good tree bears good fruit, but a bad tree bears bad fruit. A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, and a bad tree cannot bear good fruit.†(Jesus, Mathew 7: 16-18, NIV, bold type added) so unless I am misunderstanding this, Jesus himself tells us that a person will not be a true prophet one day, a false one the next, then back to a true prophet again, on and on.

And in Deuteronomy we are told: “You may say to yourselves, "How can we know when a message has not been spoken by the LORD?" If what a prophet proclaims in the name of the LORD does not take place or come true, that is a message the LORD has not spoken. That prophet has spoken presumptuously. Do not be afraid of him.†(Deut 17:21-22, NIV) (By the way, the Hebrew translated here to “Do not be afraid of him†is “guwr†which also means not to dwell or seek hospitality with.)

So it seems to me that once a person, whoever they might be, claims to be giving a revelation from God (i.e. “The Spirit tells me, Fidel Castro will die in the 90's.â€), and that revelation turns out to be false, we are to recognize them as a false prophet and have nothing more to do with them (not dwell or seek hospitality with them). We are not to simply excuse them and go on listening to and following them. If we don’t obey these scriptures, and still listen to what the false prophet says in hopes that the next time his prophesy truly will be from God, how are we to know if it is or not? How can we know which of his future prophesies are from God, and which are from some other spirit? We can’t know, so when we excuse the false prophet and continue to listen in hopes next time the message will truly be from God, we violate this scripture and we open ourselves up to being led astray. This is not condemnation of the person’s heart, it is accusation of false prophesy (or whatever the falsification was). There is a difference.

Sam, I have to agree with you that there is much in the Charismatic movement (as also in many other parts of Christianity) that is not from God. Just to be clear, by your definition I am Charismatic, although I don’t refer to myself that way. I have spiritual gifts and have used them in ways that have been proven to give glory to God. One of those gifts at certain times has been prophesy in the way it has been described here, and the knowledge I was given came true every time. I have “performed†miracles (although I don’t like to use the word “perform†because the miracles had absolutely nothing to do with anything I did beyond following God’s word, and only God's word, to the letter!) and these miracles were clearly visible, supernatural, instantaneous, and verified by outside sources. But all the glory was always to God and the only dramatic show was the power of God itself. I only mention it here to establish that I am not anti-Charismatic nor ignorant of spiritual gifts. I have also directly faced a demon and rebuked it (and don’t care to ever have that experience again!), so I know that demonic spirits are very real and can have very real influences on us when we allow them. But, like I spoke of in another thread lately, this tolerance that we see among many Christians of those who falsely prophesy, perform false miracles, and bring attention and glory to themselves is truly troubling to me as well.

This is the main reason I don’t openly identify myself as Charismatic, and it is a shame that this has to be so! It is incumbent on our leaders to denounce these practices and expose them for what they are in order to give credibility to us all!

Good post.

 

[Alabaster]

I have studied the life of David for years,love to read his story, what was your point(was there a point?). There is nothing deep about this,David was the first love of Michal and she actually saved his life, however she did not see him again for years and during that time David married several other women and Michal was given to another man to be his wife. Years later when David became king he wanted Michal back and it appears that she had forgotten David and loved another man, so she was probably not at all happy about being one of many of his wives. When they were first married she was the daughter of the king and David was just a common man, later however David was the king and she was the daughter of a has been king. Possibly for some of those reasons she was not happy with David and because of their original relationship she was not afraid to speak her disgust for his dancing while wearing a priest outfit. The context tells me that she was putting David down by comparing him to a low class person rather than actually making a statement of fact that David was allowing his nakedness to be seen since uncovering nakedness was actually against the law. Michal was one of those people I feel sorry for in the bible,she was the daughter of the king, the sister of Davis's best friend, and she was in love with David, besides all that she went against her father and saved the life of David...I feel that maybe she was not treated fairly in life by her father or David. Maybe she had finally found a little happyness with this other man and then it was broken up, anyway just my thoughts.

I posted the scripture in the hopes to settle what was brewing to be a dispute about David's exposure due to his exuberant dancing before the Lord.

 

[Hitch]

I remember being a child and this fellow came on the news because of a whole line of crimes he had commited. In the brief movie of him they showed this cubby old looking guy with a grin from ear to ear that looked like a con man for sure. Well he was standing before this huge crowd and he said,"I am pentecostal from the crown of my head to the sole of my feet" as he said this he did a little dance and it just brought the house down. Even as a child I was wondering why those people could not see that he was a crook, it seemed to me that the magic word was pentecostal.

You ve probably heard of Marjoe Gortner?

 

[Sparkey]

Sam21 pointed to, "she [Michal] was not afraid to speak her disgust for his dancing while wearing a priest outfit," and I would agree that this is the point that is being made. When she saw David dancing before the Lord, it was in the lowly garb of a priest and not the garments that should adorn a king in her view. Compounding the display of David's common origins to her aristocracy was the unseemly act of dancing with all his might before the Lord. David was celebrating the joy he felt and brought up the Arc of the Lord with shouting and trumpets. David was the first Priest/King and his throne was continued through Jesus and remains today in us as we seek to be joined into the Ministry and service of Christ.

"And David danced before the LORD with all [his] might; and David [was] girded with a linen ephod." - 2 Samuel 6:14 KJV

The word translated "ephod" is אֵפוֹד Transliteration: 'ephowd.
This is a descriptive of a certain type of garment:

1) ephod

a) priestly garment, shoulder-cape or mantle, outer garment

1) worn by an ordinary priest and made of white stuff

2) worn by the high priest - more costly, woven of gold, blue, purple, scarlet, and linen threads provided with shoulder-pieces and a breast piece of like material, ornamented with gems and gold
​

What may have been a source of shame to her was a delight to the Lord (and to David, I'm sure). When we look at the things seen today that some have described as "The Pentecost Movement" and see the things of the Holy Spirit seen through His servants, some of which could be contrasted to the pomp and circumstance that a Royal Wedding may bring. One delights the eye and casts a portrait of refined dignity while the other is a celebration of the heart in truth before the Lord.

I think this scripture speaks of how God chooses the beggarly elements of this earth to better show His glory. Michal ridiculed her Lord and King, and this foreshadowed those who expected Jesus Messiah to establish Kingly rule to Israel and were disappointed (shamed?) by his assuming the role of a servant priest over that of a ruling king.

 

[Sparkey]

Re: The Pentecostal Movement

“Behold, the days are coming, saith the Lord, that I will raise unto David a righteous Branch, and a King shall reign and prosper, and shall execute judgment and justice in the earth.

In his days Judah shall be saved, and Israel shall dwell safely: and this is his name whereby he shall be called, THE LORD OUR RIGHTEOUSNESS.

Therefore, behold, the days come, saith the Lord, that they shall no more say, The Lord liveth, which brought up the children of Israel out of the land of Egypt;

But, the Lord liveth, which brought up and which led the seed of the house of Israel out of the North country, and from all countries whither I have driven them; and they shall dwell in their own land.”

And again:

“For unto us a child is born, unto us a Son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful , Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.

Of the increase of his government and peace there shall be no end, upon the throne of David, and upon his kingdom, to order it, and to establish it with judgment and with justice from henceforth even for ever. The zeal of the Lord of hosts will perform this.”

We see the fulfillment of all this in Luke 1:31-33.

Jesus Christ does reign on David's throne forever, and he is now building a magnificent house. It was David's idea to build a material house for the Lord to dwell in but God did not ask for it. It was done to please His servant, David and to show us the deeper mysteries. It is the job of the Holy Spirit to fit each of us, each member of the Body of Christ together and we, jointly fitted, are invited to participate in the building (and edification) of the temple prophesied of so long ago, for God's glory and honor and praise.

 

[Alabaster]

Dance Like David


[video=youtube;VILdX1Dz_EY]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VILdX1Dz_EY[/video]

 

[Chris]

Dance Like David


Awesome I want to go to that! It would be fun.

 

[Alabaster]

Dance Like David


Awesome I want to go to that! It would be fun.

Amen, Chris! Worshiping God like that is fun!

Here's video of some of our dancers at our church! It was better live!


Beside You

[video=youtube;zPDqyKE3QGU]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zPDqyKE3QGU[/video]

 

[Chris]

Amen, Chris! Worshiping God like that is fun!

/watch?v=zPDqyKE3QGU[/video]

you bet church is just a great time now i l love going because I know it will be fun. The talented people in the church do cool things. Its hard not to want to get involved yourself.

 

[Elijah674]

you bet church is just a great time now i l love going because I know it will be fun. The talented people in the church do cool things. Its hard not to want to get involved yourself.

I find this extremely of interest! Worship??? Fun, EXCITING, EMOTIONAL, NOISY, + WE SEE Matt. 24:21 already moving forward with lightening speed, huh?

But, The Pentacostle Movement' must have a combination of unity with the preterist MOVEMENT to find the false 'c'hrist on earth as prophesied further on through verse 31. What is their holdup???
(is there any news on this yet??)

And the ELECT BEING DECEIVED, if it were possible???? (see Isa. 8:20's just two part TEST!)
And remember that no matter how one 'hooks' together with any of the ones of Rev. 17:1-5, they still are ALL 'PROPHESIED!.. [THE ABOMINATION OF THE EARTH!] In their camp of satans unity! Matt. 6:24

--Elijah

 

[Elijah674]

My point is not to defend Mrs. Hinn. Jesus Christ is her lawyer. She doesn't need me to defend her. I don't even know anything about her except that I am no fan of her ex-husband's work Therefore, I don't have an opinion of her due to a lack of knowledge. My point was that if I had jumped on the band wagon of judging what was said I would have made an erroneous statement, and I alone would be held responsible for my sin. Hence, the reason I am not jumping to judge or condemn anything.

She made a statement about allowing the Holy Spirit to clear us out of all junk in order to live for Him. She said it in absolutely poor taste and if I was sitting in that service I probably would have cringed hearing it. She should have said what was meant instead of placing a dramatic flair on it. Something I've learned in academic writing is: the audience prefers clarity to cleverness. Mrs. Hinn violated this rule. The angels in my opinion would have said a prayer for her sake and praised God for the love He shows undeserving sinners.

It appears to me that she spoke in the flesh. Something I have heard many respected Christians do. Something that I have done, despite my incessant pleading that the Holy Spirit control my mouth as I offer advice in His name. Guess what? Despite my panicked prayers, I still have mess ups because I am growing. Salvation is a process and crucifying the flesh is a daily act. That's the reason there is grace. How can anyone judge Mrs. Hinn's heart?

Your early statements of calling everything demonic is a dangerous playground to be in. Even Christ simply told the Pharisees to be weary they did not speak blasphemy, but did not condemn any man.

There's absolutely nothing wrong with saying something is false, but to call it demonic is not something I'm willing to do. It is more probable that the false anointing, as we have been discussing, is coming from the flesh.

All of my posts, have been nothing but my own opinions. You have stated God has been showing you the things that you have mentioned, and I can say that God has been showing me how to execute proper judgement. Remember not even Michael condemned Satan.

When we sow in judgement, we reap in judgement. There is proof of this even in this thread. Can you see it?

Hi, Elijah here.
We are in 3/25/2011 & we find that Christ does not 'ever' change. (Heb. 13:8)One can have freedom to believe whatever they want. But just a personal [posting] question for consideration?;)

First: Joshua 7:1-25 finds several opportunities for Achan + his family to come forward in repentance. (surely all of the family knew that the center of their tent had something buried there, huh?) And we see that 'ALL Israel took part in this stoning'. (representing Matt. 18:17-18 WORK OF JUDGMENT!)

Second: Judgement??
Eze. 9:11 We see the only ones saved of the Lords House are the ones who.. 'Sigh and Cry [FOR ALL THE ABOMINATIONS DONE IN THE MIDST THEREOF].' And [ALL OF THE REST WERE SLAUGHTERED BY GOD].

And the [Title thread topic], finds one of these Rev. 17:1-5 not to be judged either Good or False by Gods Church??? I find that for myself an Rev. 3:16 spewed out cop/out! And with the above Eze. 9 Warning.