The "plain words of Scripture"

[Nathan]

No.


Yes.


No.

Matthew 28:18-20 (NASB) And Jesus came up and spoke to them, saying, “All authority has been given to Me in heaven and on earth. Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all that I commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, even to the end of the age.” ​

No. He plainly said to go and make disciples of all nations.
Did any of these disciples of other nations write Scripture?

Does He say in Matthew 28 that any of these other nation's disciples will be expelled from the synagogue?


Interesting that you don't see Jesus praying that we would believe in Him through their word.
Yes He did plainly and clearly pray that we would believe in Him through their word. He was asking the Father on behalf of us that believe in Him through their word. I believed through their word (John's Gospel) long before I ever read any of your words. And yes, through the Holy Spirit too.

John 17:20 “(NASB) I do not ask on behalf of these alone, but for those also who believe in Me through their word;
​

Odd statements in light of the fact that you just said He was not praying that we would believe in Him through their word. Are "those" and "we" in your above statements not the same people on your view?

Your completely taking verse 20 out of context from verse 21. Your choice.

Your saying one instance that Jesus is speaking to His disciples only, yet in another you deny His speaking to disciples only.

Interesting.

 

[chessman]

Your completely taking verse 20 out of context from verse 21. Your choice.

Your saying one instance that Jesus is speaking to His disciples only, yet in another you deny His speaking to disciples only.

Interesting.

More untruth. No I'm not. Verses 20-21 is one sentence, in one big long prayer. In the one sentence that is verses 20-21 He prayed for both His disciples and for those also that believe in Him through their (His disciples) word. I never said Jesus was praying for His disciples only in chapter 17. But it's your choice to claim I have. That doesn't make it truthful though.

​

Underline where Jesus speaks of those who will believe in Him through His disciples word in 16:13. It's not there.

John 16:13 (NASB) But when He, the Spirit of truth, comes, He will guide you into all the truth; for He will not speak on His own initiative, but whatever He hears, He will speak; and He will disclose to you what is to come.​

Evidently your desire is to copy the phrase from Jesus' prayer; "those also who believe in Me through their word" from 17:20 and paste it into Jesus prophecy for His disciples in 16:13.

Then why not also 16:2???

'They will make you and all those that believe in Me through your word outcasts from the synagogue, but an hour is coming for everyone who kills you and all those that believe in me through your word to think that he is offering service to God.'

'But when He, the Spirit of truth, comes, He will guide you and also all those who believe in Me through your word into all the truth; for He will not speak on His own initiative, but whatever He hears, He will speak; and He will disclose to you and also all those who believe in Me through your word what is to come'

This copy/paste makes no sense of verse 16:2 OR 16:13 as the disciples of other nations (like you) were never in the synagogue to begin with.
Nor has a Jew threatened to kill you.
Nor has the Holy Spirit disclosed to you all the truth of what is to come. Else you could tell us the day/hour of Jesus' return. Or you could wrote additional Scripture.

 

[Nathan]

More untruth. No I'm not. Verses 20-21 is one sentence, in one big long prayer. In the one sentence that is verses 20-21 He prayed for both His disciples and for those also that believe in Him through their (His disciples) word. I never said Jesus was praying for His disciples only in chapter 17. But it's your choice to claim I have. That doesn't make it truthful though.

​

Underline where Jesus speaks of those who will believe in Him through His disciples word in 16:13. It's not there.

John 16:13 (NASB) But when He, the Spirit of truth, comes, He will guide you into all the truth; for He will not speak on His own initiative, but whatever He hears, He will speak; and He will disclose to you what is to come.​

Evidently your desire is to copy the phrase from Jesus' prayer; "those also who believe in Me through their word" from 17:20 and paste it into Jesus prophecy for His disciples in 16:13.

Then why not also 16:2???

'They will make you and all those that believe in Me through your word outcasts from the synagogue, but an hour is coming for everyone who kills you and all those that believe in me through your word to think that he is offering service to God.'

'But when He, the Spirit of truth, comes, He will guide you and also all those who believe in Me through your word into all the truth; for He will not speak on His own initiative, but whatever He hears, He will speak; and He will disclose to you and also all those who believe in Me through your word what is to come'

This copy/paste makes no sense of verse 16:2 OR 16:13 as the disciples of other nations (like you) were never in the synagogue to begin with.
Nor has a Jew threatened to kill you.
Nor has the Holy Spirit disclosed to you all the truth of what is to come. Else you could tell us the day/hour of Jesus' return. Or you could wrote additional Scripture.

I'm talking about John 16 vs Matthew 28.

You said Matthew 28 applies to us, that we should baptize even though He was speaking to His disciples right?

But you flip it in John 16, saying it doesn't apply to us, to say that the Spirit won't guide us into all truth right?

 

[FreeGrace]

Which is this referring to, earthly judgment, or eternal judgment?
"9“If your eye causes you to stumble, pluck it out and throw it from you. It is better for you to enter life with one eye, than to have two eyes and be cast into the fiery hell." (Matthew 18:9 NASB)

It's pretty obvious here, a reference to hell. But consider the point of Jesus' words.

Was He advocating self mutilation? Even though He used "plain language". Of course not. That would be totally insane. So, what was His point? Was He implying that one could enter eternity crippled in any way? Again, we know better.

So, what was His point? A simple contrast teaching that entering eternity with eternal life is FAR BETTER than being cast into hell.

And there is nothing here about losing salvation. Even though His literal words might suggest that.

So, in addition to avoiding figures of speech to form doctrines, when considering "plain language" one must use common sense as well.

Taking Matt 18:19 from a straight literal sense, one MUST self mutilate in order to avoid being cast into the fiery hell. Which is beyond nuts.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Taking Matt 18:19 from a straight literal sense, one MUST self mutilate in order to avoid being cast into the fiery hell. Which is beyond nuts.

You can't honestly explain how using a metaphor for the church means the plain words in the passage don't mean exactly what they say. Little ones who believe in Jesus can go to the fiery, eternal hell. Just because Jesus uses the common metaphor of body parts for the church doesn't make it so the plain words about going to hell aren't true. You're interpreting the passage dishonestly and you will pay a dear price for doing that because you cause weak little ones to give up in their struggle with sin causing them to stumble by telling them they can't go to hell for denying Christ and returning to their old lives. But Jesus made it clear they can stumble so as to go to hell. But for some reason these are plain words that don't get to be interpreted for the plain words they are. Your OP is quite hypocritical.

So to keep this on topic and avoid WIP closing it down, I'm pointing out that your inability to honestly explain the PLAIN WORDS about believers in Christ going to the fiery hell in Matthew 18:6-9 NASB escapes your OP insisting on the recognition of plain words:

On the Arminian side, the argument for loss of salvation rests primarily on verses that use figures of speech or metaphors, and these are claimed to be the "plain words of Scripture".

 

[chessman]

You said Matthew 28 applies to us, that we should baptize even though He was speaking to His disciples right?

I said it applies to us because the Scriptural truth Matthew was lead to disclose specifically says to make disciples of all nations (like ours).

But you flip it in John 16, saying it doesn't apply to us, to say that the Spirit won't guide us into all truth right?

I'm not 'flipping' anything. John 16:13 isn't talking about disciples of other nations (like you or me) obviously. You are desiring to insert yourself into a verse that's essentially Jesus telling His disciples they would be expelled from the synagogue, killed by other Jews and that the Holy Spirit would lead them to write the truth of the NT.

Disclaimer: That is NOT me saying that the Holy Spirit doesn't speak truth to you or me, today. But to use this particular verse to support the doctrine of the indwelling of the Holy Spirit in us today is unnecessary and inappropriate for the obvious reasons I've been stating.

John 16:12-14 (NASB) “I have many more things to say to you, but you cannot bear them now. But when He, the Spirit of truth, comes, He will guide you into all the truth; for He will not speak on His own initiative, but whatever He hears, He will speak; and He will disclose to you what is to come. He will glorify Me, for He will take of Mine and will disclose it to you.​

If you were with Jesus then and one of His disciples that was going to be expelled from the synagogue and killed by the Jews that killed Jesus and that the Holy Spirit was going to disclose the NT to, you'd have a point with this passage. But you're not.

An again, that in no way means that you do not have the indwelling of the very same Holy Spirit that they did. We ARE in the Son and in the Father precisely because; 1) we believe in the Son through "their word" (the NT) and 2) have the same Spirit in us that they got in them. Namely, the Holy Spirit.

John 17:20-21 “I do not ask on behalf of these alone, but for those also who believe in Me through their word; that they may all be one; even as You, Father, are in Me and I in You, that they also may be in Us, so that the world may believe that You sent Me. ​

Think about it. What is "their word" referring to in this passage. It's the NT Scripture! I.e. the "many more things to say to you" Jesus had to tell them back in chapter 16:12-14 but that they could not bear at that time.

If you insert yourself into 16:12-14, you would be able to disclose additional NT Scripture to us. Scripture that leads people to believe in Christ. Problem is, Scripture was closed at Rev 22.

 

[chessman]

You can't honestly explain how using a metaphor for the church means the plain words in the passage don't mean exactly what they say. Little ones who believe in Jesus can go to the fiery, eternal hell.

Honestly, the passage does NOT say the 'little ones who believe in Jesus can go to the fiery, eternal Hell'.

Rules: "Assume they have interpreted scripture in an honest attempt to understand the Word of the Lord."

So to keep this on topic and avoid WIP closing it down, ...

If you were interested in avoiding WIP closing it down, you'd understand the plain and clear rule of this forum that prohibits your continuous accusations of dishonest interpretation of Scripture. Evidently you understand the rules of this forum as unclearly as you do Matt 18's point that it's better for the little ones (believers) to remove the stumbling blocks of the world (unbelievers) from the church body.

I'm pointing out that your inability to honestly explain the PLAIN WORDS about believers in Christ going to the fiery hell in Matthew 18:6-9 NASB escapes your OP insisting on the recognition of plain words:

From the OP:

Jesus spoke truth in figures of speech, but the message wasn't understood.

See how people misunderstand the difference between a "stumbling block of the world" versus a "little one who believed in Me" for a prime example!

Or how people confuse "stumbling" for entering the fiery Hell, for another example.

 

[FreeGrace]

I said this:
"Taking Matt 18:19 from a straight literal sense, one MUST self mutilate in order to avoid being cast into the fiery hell. Which is beyond nuts."

You can't honestly explain how using a metaphor for the church means the plain words in the passage don't mean exactly what they say.

Then, obviously, you DO practice self mutilation. How's that workin' for ya?

Little ones who believe in Jesus can go to the fiery, eternal hell.

Where in the world would one read that? Certainly not in the Bible.

Just because Jesus uses the common metaphor of body parts for the church doesn't make it so the plain words about going to hell aren't true.

Oh, so, just the "plain words" about being cast into hell? But not the "plain words" about self mutilation, huh? Just trying to have it both ways.

You're interpreting the passage dishonestly and you will pay a dear price for doing that because you cause weak little ones to give up in their struggle with sin causing them to stumble by telling them they can't go to hell for denying Christ and returning to their old lives. But Jesus made it clear they can stumble so as to go to hell. But for some reason these are plain words that don't get to be interpreted for the plain words they are.

Then please provide an explanation for why my understanding of the passage is wrong.

Your OP is quite hypocritical.

How about backing that up with some actual evidence?

So to keep this on topic and avoid WIP closing it down, I'm pointing out that your inability to honestly explain the PLAIN WORDS about believers in Christ going to the fiery hell in Matthew 18:6-9 NASB escapes your OP insisting on the recognition of plain words:

As I've explained, Jesus' point was that going to heaven is FAR BETTER than being cast into hell.

In fact, if one takes the WHOLE SENTENCE literally, one is REQUIRED to practice self mutilation in order to avoid being cast into hell.

That is just nuts, imo. That's NOT how to avoid being cast into hell.

 

[eddif]

The reason why we don't see them plainly is because we don't want to see them plainly. If we wanted to, we would ask, and God would show us. If your kids did not understand your letter, would you not explain it to them if they sought you out for an explanation?

There is a two sided aspect to your statement.

First off (#1)
Parables absolutely contain truth. Every thing Jesus spoke to the multitudes was a truth, but it was a hidden truth (so that hearing they might not hear). Privately Jesus explained the parables and veiled / hidden speech to the disciples. The very hard thing was:
John 16:12 KJV
I have yet many things to say unto you, but ye cannot bear them now.

Till the time was right even the truth can not be received, even by the disciples.

Second off (#2)
Some people love a lie more than the truth. If someone has a messed up interpretation of scripture, some people will memorize the false interpretation and quote it for thousands of years.
....:,

Thou shall not muzzle an ox as it treads out the corn.
Sounds like how to treat animals, but a study shows it is about bishops.
I Corinthians 9:9 KJV
For it is written in the law of Moses, Thou shalt not muzzle the mouth of the ox that treadeth out the corn. Doth God take care for oxen?
10 Or saith he it altogether for our sakes? For our sakes, no doubt, this is written: that he that ploweth should plow in hope; and that he that thresheth in hope should be partaker of his hope.

I have left the clear explanation off (from other scriptures).
If anyone actually wants to know, a web search will set the truth in front of them.

No matter how natural something Jesus said seems; there is a hidden spiritual truth there.

Pentecost seems to have empowered the New Testament writers to write of hidden things.

Without the Holy Spirit we still stumble around not understanding.

Nathan I enjoy your posts. I am not picking on you, I just sort of saw an opportunity to leap in.

Rednecks live around farm animals, but it is the Holy Spirit that opens minds.
eddif

 

[Nathan]

I said it applies to us because the Scriptural truth Matthew was lead to disclose specifically says to make disciples of all nations (like ours).


I'm not 'flipping' anything. John 16:13 isn't talking about disciples of other nations (like you or me) obviously. You are desiring to insert yourself into a verse that's essentially Jesus telling His disciples they would be expelled from the synagogue, killed by other Jews and that the Holy Spirit would lead them to write the truth of the NT.

Disclaimer: That is NOT me saying that the Holy Spirit doesn't speak truth to you or me, today. But to use this particular verse to support the doctrine of the indwelling of the Holy Spirit in us today is unnecessary and inappropriate for the obvious reasons I've been stating.

John 16:12-14 (NASB) “I have many more things to say to you, but you cannot bear them now. But when He, the Spirit of truth, comes, He will guide you into all the truth; for He will not speak on His own initiative, but whatever He hears, He will speak; and He will disclose to you what is to come. He will glorify Me, for He will take of Mine and will disclose it to you.​

If you were with Jesus then and one of His disciples that was going to be expelled from the synagogue and killed by the Jews that killed Jesus and that the Holy Spirit was going to disclose the NT to, you'd have a point with this passage. But you're not.

An again, that in no way means that you do not have the indwelling of the very same Holy Spirit that they did. We ARE in the Son and in the Father precisely because; 1) we believe in the Son through "their word" (the NT) and 2) have the same Spirit in us that they got in them. Namely, the Holy Spirit.

John 17:20-21 “I do not ask on behalf of these alone, but for those also who believe in Me through their word; that they may all be one; even as You, Father, are in Me and I in You, that they also may be in Us, so that the world may believe that You sent Me. ​

Think about it. What is "their word" referring to in this passage. It's the NT Scripture! I.e. the "many more things to say to you" Jesus had to tell them back in chapter 16:12-14 but that they could not bear at that time.

If you insert yourself into 16:12-14, you would be able to disclose additional NT Scripture to us. Scripture that leads people to believe in Christ. Problem is, Scripture was closed at Rev 22.

Come on chessman. Your picking and choosing. Read Matthew 28 again.

Matthew 28:18-20
And Jesus came and said to them, “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you. And behold, I am with you always, to the end of the age.”

Now, were 'you'(chessman) standing there when Jesus said this? Are you the "them" and "you" in this passage? Yet you say this applies to us?(I believe it does also). However, you take John 16 and say that it absolutely does not apply to us.(I believe it does).

Sure, Jesus was not speaking directly to us today - but just the same as Matthew 28 is applicable, so is John 16.

 

[WIP]

Based on this thread's topic and the opening paragraph, it seems the topic of this thread is to understand how one discerns what are "plain words of Scripture." Let's keep this thread on topic.

 

[chessman]

Come on chessman. Your picking and choosing.

I'm reading and addressing all your questions and your erroneous statements made about what I believe.

Now, were 'you'(chessman) standing there when Jesus said this?

No.

Are you the "them" and "you" in this passage?

No. I'm one of the disciples from other nations referenced in this passage.

Yet you say this applies to us?(I believe it does also).

It applies to us because it specifically talks about us in addition to "them".

you take John 16 and say that it absolutely does not apply to us.(I believe it does).

Do you believe that John 16:2 and 12 applies to us?

John 16:2 (NASB) They will make you outcasts from the synagogue, but an hour is coming for everyone who kills you to think that he is offering service to God. ​

Are you the "you" in this passage??? Have you been made an outcast from the synagogue or were you killed in the hour they were??? You said no already.

Or in this one?:

John 16:12 (NASB) “I have many more things to say to you, but you cannot bear them now. ​

Is there anything Jesus has to say to you now, that you cannot bear?

just the same as Matthew 28 is applicable, so is John 16.

The portions that are applicable are applicable. The ones that are not, are not.

You are avoiding the issue I'm raising for you to address.

Do you think the Holy Spirit gives you further Scripture beyond the NT (yes or no)?

 

[eddif]

I agree not all scripture is plain. Some of it is symbolic (but the bible interprets itself elsewhere) and Jesus spoke in parables all the time just so that people would not hear nor be healed. His disciples would eventually hear when the Spirit was given, so in the meantime he spoke to them as well in parables foreseeing a time they would eventually understand and then be able to use that truth. As we would say today, it would eventually "gel". Speaking in parables would thus separate the sheep from the goats so-to-speak, and those with spiritual understanding from those who followed Jesus to have their bellies filled. This is why you don't use the "rich man in hell" parable to form a doctrine about "hell". It's a parable for cryin' out loud symbolic of something else. Yet, when one (such as myself) comes up with some scriptural understanding, some are quick to retort, "Where is that in scripture?" as if every detail has to be pointed out letter-by-letter instead of gaining that insight by biblical laws, parables and principles. Well, I guess they would have a hard time with Jesus, too, just like the religious leaders of the day who I'm sure had their clearly spelled out "articles of faith".

Now if you are real nuts like me or the theologian Sir Isaac Newton in my avatar there, one will even entertain the idea of bible code, that the bible is a coded book or that there's messages in numbers (gematria). But don't expect that to be found stated plainly by chapter and verse. I guess God forgot that. LOL

That was a pretty well thought out post

Romans 1:19-20

Creation presents theology in created things. Job is a book filled with information, but every thing is not explained there.

Four is an interesting number in the bovine stomach. Digesting grass is much like taking scripture into its usable concepts.

eddif

 

[Nathan]

I'm reading and addressing all your questions and your erroneous statements made about what I believe.


No.


No. I'm one of the disciples from other nations referenced in this passage.


It applies to us because it specifically talks about us in addition to "them".


Do you believe that John 16:2 and 12 applies to us?

John 16:2 (NASB) They will make you outcasts from the synagogue, but an hour is coming for everyone who kills you to think that he is offering service to God. ​

Are you the "you" in this passage??? Have you been made an outcast from the synagogue or were you killed in the hour they were??? You said no already.

Or in this one?:

John 16:12 (NASB) “I have many more things to say to you, but you cannot bear them now. ​

Is there anything Jesus has to say to you now, that you cannot bear?


The portions that are applicable are applicable. The ones that are not, are not.

You are avoiding the issue I'm raising for you to address.

Do you think the Holy Spirit gives you further Scripture beyond the NT (yes or no)?

Avoiding the issue? I'm showing you that your statements are hypocritical. You pick one passage to apply to yourself and another to not - when they both use the same words that you use to prove one does not apply to you. Then, you say that you are one of the "other nations referenced" in the passage - yet when Jesus references those who would come to believe, that does not matter?

Do I think the Holy Spirit gives 'me' further Scripture beyond the NT? No. Scripture is Scripture. The Holy Spirit did not give the disciples Scripture - He clarified what Scripture there was already given and what teachings Christ taught when here.

Do you think the same cannot happen to us as it did them? Can the Spirit not teach us the truth about the Scriptures, and Jesus teaching, just like it did them? I believe He can and will - if we listen and follow.

 

[chessman]

The Holy Spirit did not give the disciples Scripture - He clarified what Scripture there was already given and what teachings Christ taught when here.

I see. What's the word I'm looking for...??? Oh yes, 'Interesting'.

Rev 1:9-11 (NASB) I, John, your fellow partaker in the tribulation and kingdom and perseverance which are in Jesus, was on the island called Patmos because of the word of God and the testimony of Jesus. 10 I was in the Spirit on the Lord’s day, and I heard behind me a loud voice like the sound of a trumpet, 11 saying, “Write in a book what you see, ...​

 

[Nathan]

I see. What's the word I'm looking for...??? Oh yes, 'Interesting'.

Rev 1:9-11 (NASB) I, John, your fellow partaker in the tribulation and kingdom and perseverance which are in Jesus, was on the island called Patmos because of the word of God and the testimony of Jesus. 10 I was in the Spirit on the Lord’s day, and I heard behind me a loud voice like the sound of a trumpet, 11 saying, “Write in a book what you see, ...​

HEY! That's my word.

Yes, it is interesting. John wrote down the things he saw and was told. The same for Paul, when he wrote letters to the churches.

There are many people who write books today. How did we get the "Bible"? (this is my shortened version - cliff notes if you will) Men sat down and studied the 'books' we find in it, and compared the NT books/letters/writings to the OT Scriptures. If they lined up then the book/letter was included in the NT. Together, we call the one complete book the "Bible". The "Scriptures" were written before Christ came to the earth as Jesus.

We simply choose not to add the current writings, to the Bible, because they are not needed. That does not mean we cannot see truths, the same truths, as the writers of the NT did. We can, and we do, through the power of the Holy Spirit.

That is why you can take a man without the Spirit of God, set him in front of the Bible, and he will not understand what he reads.

 

[Nathan]

I'll add one thing. If you read the book of Revelation, and then read all of the OT prophecies, you find very - very - similar things. Not word for word, but a lot of thought for thought.

 

[chessman]

The "Scriptures" were written before Christ came to the earth as Jesus.

I'm sorry but I need to borrow your word again. Now that's "interesting". Never heard that one before. Who told you that?
Do you not consider Paul's writings (who wasn't even a Christian believer before Jesus' death) Scripture and John's Scripture?
What's your definition of Scripture?
Is it not the Holy Spirit inspired words of God (to include the Father's words, Jesus' words and the Holy Spirit's words)?

No wonder you avoid answering my questions relative to those "who believe in Me [Jesus] through their word" (His disciple's word). You don't think their word is Scripture. I see, now. I don't buy it, but I see where you are coming from now (finally).

John 17:20-21 (NASB) “I do not ask on behalf of these alone, but for those also who believe in Me through their word; that they may all be one; even as You, Father, are in Me and I in You, that they also may be in Us, so that the world may believe that You sent Me.​

"the world" had the OT Scripture up until Jesus' death. The world needed the NT Scripture too, specifically so that the world may believe (not just Jews).

Per Peter, Paul "also" wrote Scripture after Jesus' death.

2Pet 3:14-16( NASB) Therefore, beloved, since you look for these things, be diligent to be found by Him in peace, spotless and blameless, and regard the patience of our Lord as salvation; just as also our beloved brother Paul, according to the wisdom given him, wrote to you, as also in all his letters, speaking in them of these things, in which are some things hard to understand, which the untaught and unstable distort, as they do also the rest of the Scriptures, to their own destruction.​

How did we get the "Bible"? (this is my shortened version - cliff notes if you will) Men sat down and studied the 'books' we find in it, and compared the NT books/letters/writings to the OT Scriptures. If they lined up then the book/letter was included in the NT.

Your "shortened version" leaves out a lot of important stuff. Not to mention seems contrived to proved your desired conclusion, that the NT is not Scripture.

And again, Per John, additional Revelation.

The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave Him to show to His bond-servants, the things which must soon take place; and He sent and communicated it by His angel to His bond-servant John,

Are you aware what the word "revelation" means? Nevermind....

Per Jesus, He had more to say to His disciples than what He'd said recorded in the OT Scripture and while He was on Earth. Read all about it, in the NT Scripture.

John 17:12 (NASB) “I have many more things to say to you, but you cannot bear them now. 13 But when He, the Spirit of truth, comes, He will guide you into all the truth; for He will not speak on His own initiative, but whatever He hears, He will speak; and He will disclose to you what is to come.​

Are you aware that the things Jesus has to say ARE Scripture (both in the OT and the NT)?

 

[Nathan]

I'm sorry but I need to borrow your word again. Now that's "interesting". Never heard that one before. Who told you that?
Do you not consider Paul's writings (who wasn't even a Christian believer before Jesus' death) Scripture and John's Scripture?
What's your definition of Scripture?
Is it not the Holy Spirit inspired words of God (to include the Father's words, Jesus' words and the Holy Spirit's words)?

No wonder you avoid answering my questions relative to those "who believe in Me [Jesus] through their word" (His disciple's word). You don't think their word is Scripture. I see, now. I don't buy it, but I see where you are coming from now (finally).

John 17:20-21 (NASB) “I do not ask on behalf of these alone, but for those also who believe in Me through their word; that they may all be one; even as You, Father, are in Me and I in You, that they also may be in Us, so that the world may believe that You sent Me.​

"the world" had the OT Scripture up until Jesus' death. The world needed the NT Scripture too, specifically so that the world may believe (not just Jews).

Per Peter, Paul "also" wrote Scripture after Jesus' death.

2Pet 3:14-16( NASB) Therefore, beloved, since you look for these things, be diligent to be found by Him in peace, spotless and blameless, and regard the patience of our Lord as salvation; just as also our beloved brother Paul, according to the wisdom given him, wrote to you, as also in all his letters, speaking in them of these things, in which are some things hard to understand, which the untaught and unstable distort, as they do also the rest of the Scriptures, to their own destruction.​

Your "shortened version" leaves out a lot of important stuff. Not to mention seems contrived to proved your desired conclusion, that the NT is not Scripture.

And again, Per John, additional Revelation.

The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave Him to show to His bond-servants, the things which must soon take place; and He sent and communicated it by His angel to His bond-servant John,

Are you aware what the word "revelation" means? Nevermind....

Per Jesus, He had more to say to His disciples than what He'd said recorded in the OT Scripture and while on he was on Earth. Read all about it, in the NT Scripture.

John 17:12 (NASB) “I have many more things to say to you, but you cannot bear them now. 13 But when He, the Spirit of truth, comes, He will guide you into all the truth; for He will not speak on His own initiative, but whatever He hears, He will speak; and He will disclose to you what is to come.​

Are you aware that the things Jesus has to say ARE Scripture (both in the OT and the NT)?

Oh, you can use the word - it is just a word right?

I am not avoiding any questions. If I have missed some its just because you wrap so much stuff around them its hard to understand what your asking. Try asking plainly.

"Scripture" is the God given books, which we have termed the Old Testament. Those are the "Scriptures". The NT letters are an expansion of the Scriptures - and the Gospels are the record of Christ's time on earth. All of the NT "books/letters" are descriptive and explanatory of the OT Scriptures. The Bereans took what Paul said, and compared them to the Scriptures to make sure he was legit.

Acts 17:10-11
The brothers immediately sent Paul and Silas away by night to Berea, and when they arrived they went into the Jewish synagogue. Now these Jews were more noble than those in Thessalonica; they received the word with all eagerness, examining the Scriptures daily to see if these things were so.

No, the NT is not the Scriptures - They are truth, but not the Scriptures. Why the difference?(I ask that for me to answer) Because, the NT writings of truth will never negate what the Scriptures say. Which means, if there are things that seem contradictory in the NT, you can understand them by looking at the OT. A lot of false theology is based on taking the NT and 'replacing' the OT with it.

This is what Peter was talking about. Paul was teaching truths based on the OT Scriptures, and people were twisting these truths - just like they did the Scriptures themselves. Why? Because they had to twist both because Paul was teaching from the Scriptures.

We are blessed to have the NT writings, but they are not needed for salvation or truth. They contain truth, don't get me wrong. I dearly love to read them and study them. The disciples taught and declared the Gospel - from the Scriptures. The NT writings came about after people received faith.

Here is the problem people have with this. They want to view God from only the NT writings, and leave out the OT Scriptures. If they are to view the NT writings, based on the OT Scriptures, then a lot of things taught would become false. I find it "interesting" that this was happening back then and even recorded by Peter as so.

Luk 24:27
And beginning with Moses and all the Prophets, he interpreted to them in all the Scriptures the things concerning himself.

Please don't tell me you don't think the word "all" does not mean all - do you? Was Jesus interpreting the NT writings to them?(hint - they had not even been written yet).

 

[Nathan]

To add a note in here - I understand that most people talk about the Bible as "the Scriptures" and so I don't usually differentiate. However, when talking specifics, its a must to differentiate.

The "Bible" contains the "Scriptures" - and is why we don't see the words "Holy Scriptures" on the front of the book we carry around.

Act 17:11
Now these Jews were more noble than those in Thessalonica; they received the word with all eagerness, examining the Scriptures daily to see if these things were so.

γραφή graphḗ, graf-ay'; from G1125; a document, i.e. holy Writ (or its contents or a statement in it):—scripture.

"The Scriptures" as called such in the NT, are the 'documents' written in what we call the OT. They are those documents - none else.

In America we have a document called the Deceleration of Independence. It is a document. You can't add anything to it and still call it the Deceleration of Independence - even if what is added to it is descriptive of it.