The power of The Cross

[Mitspa]

yes, if Jesus Christ has not died for the humankind, now all we would yet be under the oppression of much greater spiritual/religious iniquity, but the problem still is when the believers seek their own profit/wealth in the faith instead of the profit/wealth for the other humans

Matthew 16:24-25 "Then said Jesus unto his disciples, If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me. For whosoever will save his life shall lose it: and whosoever will lose his life for my sake shall find it.",

1 John 2:6-8 "He that saith he abideth in him ought himself also so to walk, even as he walked. Brethren, I write no new commandment unto you, but an old commandment which ye had from the beginning. The old commandment is the word which ye have heard from the beginning. Again, a new commandment I write unto you, which thing is true in him and in you: because the darkness is past, and the true light now shineth.",

1 Corinthians 10:24-33 "Let no man seek his own, but every man another's wealth..... Give none offence, neither to the Jews, nor to the Gentiles, nor to the church of God: Even as I please all men in all things, not seeking mine own profit, but the profit of many(i.e. of all humans), that they may be saved."

just see how many clerics/believers till now work only for themselves or seek principally their own profit/wealth in the faith

Blessings

JCitol, I do not agree with much of your doctrines, but I must agree with your point made here!

 

[Mitspa]

Consider that baptism is a picture of dying with Christ to our own righteousness? These means that through His death we admit we can produce no righteous works of our own. We are admitting that we deserve death and that Through Him we have died with Him!

Now to make baptism a religious work to justify oneself is to deny its very meaning! Some would make it the first act in a religious process of works to justify themselves!

They miss the whole point of baptism!

To die with Him, means that He has become our justification? His Person is now our righteousness. FOR AS HE IS SO ARE WE IN THIS WORLD!

FOR HE HAS BEEN MADE UNTO US WISDOM, RIGHTEOUSNESS AND HOLINESS!

To be "IN CHRIST" IS SALVATION!
To say Christ is your Savior is to say He is your SALVATION.
when goes about to establish their own righteousness? they are in fact in rejection of His!

 

[Osgiliath]

Well it saved me! And through the Cross I have died to what I was! The veil has been torn, that is His Flesh that I may enter into the Kindom of God.

Now I boldly declare that all who believe may enter into eternal life through His Cross. But the fearful and unbelieving will have their part in the lake of fire.

Sorry I did make the law of faith! its a law just as the law of gravity. You say all can fly? I say better not jump off the the cliff unless you have wings and have learned to use them!


For He did spread His arms to teach others the way!

I say all come and bow the knee to the Lord of Glory!
All humble themselves before Him who is humble!

Would you rob Him of His glory?

If you knew Him, you would not say that He does not deserve every mans faith! you would not say that every knee should not bow to the King of Glory!

WITHOUT FAITH IT IS IMPOSSIBLE!

But you still don't understand the true "power" of the Cross at all. Your line of reasoning would have us believe that Christ has done all He can for the sinner, so He has now gone back to His heaven and is seated upon His golden throne waiting for all who will to be saved. According to you, God through Jesus has done all He can possibly do and has now left the work of saving souls to the individual, hoping that some, at least, will be persuaded to accept the Savior. We must go out and contact all the sinners we can - and see if we cannot get them to "accept Christ," and by their own strength and "power" believe, and have faith.

But, of course, if the sinner does not want to be saved, then even God in all His power cannot intervene, and nothing is left but eternal hell-fire and damnation for that sinner. And what does your line of reasoning reveal? It reveals nothing but a POWERFUL MANKIND and a WEAK GOD! Hence, there is no "power" in your cross.


Here is what your so-called "invitation" doctrine is saying: God pulls into your driveway and, finding your house burning down, honks the horn a couple times. Being a hands off God, He then closes His eyes, plugs His ears and starts humming loudly to Himself so He won't be tempted to influence your decision to either get into or not get into His car. From this point on, it's entirely up to your strength and your wisdom to open the door and get in. Never mind that you're upstairs lying unconscious and helpless on the floor (see 'helpless' - 'without strength' Romans 5:6). And you better get a move on too, because this boat is leaving. Once God pulls out of the driveway, your chance to get in the car is over. (As if God leaves Christ's work on the Cross to chance!)

The really silly part about your "invitation" theology is that you, and others who believe it, call it "salvation by grace." Sounds to me more like "salvation by being strong enough and smart enough to get into God's car while God is closing His eyes, plugging His ears and humming to Himself."


The sad thing is; 99.9% of Christendom agrees with you. And that is why:

Matthew 22:14 "For many are called, but few are chosen."


Many are called and show up for church every Sunday, but few of those called are chosen to participate in that glorious 'First Resurrection' as priests to reign with Christ (Revelation 20:6). How could Jesus allow these people to reign when they believe it is 'fair' and 'just' for people to be tortured and severely burned with fire for eternity? Seriously? Not gonna happen.


Matthew 9:13 "But go and learn what this means: 'I DESIRE MERCY, AND NOT SACRIFICE,' for I did not come to call the righteous, BUT sinners."

 

[Mitspa]

But you still don't understand the true "power" of the Cross at all. Your line of reasoning would have us believe that Christ has done all He can for the sinner, so He has now gone back to His heaven and is seated upon His golden throne waiting for all who will to be saved. According to you, God through Jesus has done all He can possibly do and has now left the work of saving souls to the individual, hoping that some, at least, will be persuaded to accept the Savior. We must go out and contact all the sinners we can - and see if we cannot get them to "accept Christ," and by their own strength and "power" believe, and have faith.

But, of course, if the sinner does not want to be saved, then even God in all His power cannot intervene, and nothing is left but eternal hell-fire and damnation for that sinner. And what does your line of reasoning reveal? It reveals nothing but a POWERFUL MANKIND and a WEAK GOD! Hence, there is no "power" in your cross.


Here is what your so-called "invitation" doctrine is saying: God pulls into your driveway and, finding your house burning down, honks the horn a couple times. Being a hands off God, He then closes His eyes, plugs His ears and starts humming loudly to Himself so He won't be tempted to influence your decision to either get into or not get into His car. From this point on, it's entirely up to your strength and your wisdom to open the door and get in. Never mind that you're upstairs lying unconscious and helpless on the floor (see 'helpless' - 'without strength' Romans 5:6). And you better get a move on too, because this boat is leaving. Once God pulls out of the driveway, your chance to get in the car is over. (As if God leaves Christ's work on the Cross to chance!)

The really silly part about your "invitation" theology is that you, and others who believe it, call it "salvation by grace." Sounds to me more like "salvation by being strong enough and smart enough to get into God's car while God is closing His eyes, plugging His ears and humming to Himself."

See what you have done is charge me with things that I have in no way said or held as true! I do believe you have transgressed the rules of this forum?

Because I do not hold your doctrines of universal salvation you charge me with the sin of wishing folks to be damned? I assure you I have gone to great lengths and suffered much to bring the word of life to streets and prisons, dope houses, projects etc...

Mercy has been shown in Christ, God will have mercy upon whom He will have mercy, He has stated clearly that all he demands from sinful man is faith in His Son! Now If you think you are more just than God, that you decide who He should save? You are in great error!

Those who will perish will receive absolute justice at the Hands of a merciful God! If He deems they should be destroyed by fire or whatever? He is the Almighty and The Judge, no one will come away from His Judgment and say that He did not do justice!

So I leave His Judgment up to Him! I condemn no one! I do see the clear warning in scripture and I as a true minister of Jesus Christ have been commanded to warn those who reject the free gift of salvation by faith in Christ. You can pretend to have a greater sense of justice than Gods word reveals but you are not the judge! and your judgment is based upon your own puffed up veiw of your own opinion and your own sense of moral ability to jugde good and evil. Which comes from your fallen nature and satans lies.

 

[Deborah13]

Osgiliath, if I were to believe as you do that God basically siks satan and his demons on us in a crazy game of human good verus evil chess game, I to would have to believe that everyone will be saved. A God that directly ordered the carniage could not justify the eternal damnation for one who failed the test.

When reading one of your posts on another thread my response was.....If I believed this way about God I wouldn't want anything to do with Him. You couldn't scare me enough with eternal damnation to make me want to service such a God.

 

[Osgiliath]

Osgiliath, if I were to believe as you do that God basically siks satan and his demons on us............... A God that directly ordered the carniage could not justify the eternal damnation for one who failed the test.

You couldn't scare me enough with eternal damnation to make me want to service such a God.

You're welcome to your own opinions, but the Scriptures don't agree with YOUR opinions.


Isn't it clear that God Himself sent the evil spirit to trouble Saul:

1 Samuel 16:14 "But the Spirit of the LORD departed from Saul, and an evil spirit from the LORD troubled him.
1 Samuel 16:15 And Saul's servants said unto him, Behold now, an evil spirit from God troubleth thee."


Isn't it clear that it was God who sent the lying spirit to the prophets to "persuade" Ahab at Ramothgilead:

1 Kings 22:19 "And he said, Hear thou therefore the word of the LORD: I saw the LORD sitting on his throne, and all the host of heaven standing by him on his right hand and on his left.
1 Kings 22:20 And the LORD said, Who shall persuade Ahab, that he may go up and fall at Ramothgilead? And one said on this manner, and another said on that manner.
1 Kings 22:21 And there came forth a spirit, and stood before the LORD, and said, I will persuade him.
1 Kings 22:22 And the LORD said unto him, Wherewith? And he said, I will go forth, and I will be a lying spirit in the mouth of all his prophets. And he said, Thou shalt persuade him, and prevail also: go forth, and do so."


Was it not God's idea to send Satan down to afflict Job (see Job chapters 1 and 2)?

And we also have:

Ezekiel 14:9 "And if the prophet be deceived when he hath spoken a thing, I the LORD have deceived that prophet, and I will stretch out my hand upon him, and will destroy him from the midst of my people Israel."


And is it not God Himself who sends "strong delusion?"

2 Thessalonians 2:11 "And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie."


Also, pay very close attention to the following two passages, and notice "WHO IT WAS" that provoked David to number Israel in both of these accounts:

2 Samuel 24:1 "And again the anger of the LORD was kindled against Israel, and he moved David against them to say, Go, number Israel and Judah."

1 Chronicles 21:1 "And Satan stood up against Israel, and provoked David to number Israel."

These two passages are describing the SAME EVENT. One verse says it was Satan who stood up against Israel, the other verse says it was God who stood up against Israel. Which is it? They are ONE AND THE SAME! The word 'Satan' as it is translated here in in the Hebrew means "adversary" and here God is referred to as an Adversary (Satan) who provoked David to number Israel!

Like I said, you are welcome to your opinions like your quote above, but your opinions have no bearing on what the Scriptures above tell us.



Let me ask you a question Deborah. If the wages of sin is eternal punishment in Hell, and Jesus paid the price for all sinners, then why isn't Jesus still in Hell being tormented for eternity, paying the price required of all sinners? If eternal punishment in Hell is the wages of sin, then why, as the Bible tells us, is Jesus at the Right Hand of God in Heaven right now? If Jesus is in Heaven, how could He have paid the full price for sin when, according to you, the wages of sin is eternal punishment in Hell?

How is it that the Sin Bearer of the whole world pays a price of temporal suffering and death of the flesh - being resurrected three days later; and yet the rest of the sinners have to pay a price of spending an eternity without end in Hell, being tortured in unimaginable agony with fire and brimstone?

The price our Savior paid was great indeed, but it is nothing compared to being brutally tortured relentlessly in unquenchable fires throughout the endless ages of eternity. Even after millions, and billions, and trillions of centuries, eternity has just begun! If He really paid the full price for sin, and took the place of the sinner, wouldn't He have to pay exactly the same price that is required of the sinner?

According to God's own Law, His Golden Rule, (Exodus 21:23-24 - LIFE FOR LIFE, eye for eye, tooth for tooth, etc.), God's Law required a LIFE FOR A LIFE, which is exactly what Jesus did, He laid down His LIFE for our LIFE, did He not?

If eternal punishment in Hell was the price sinners had to pay, Jesus would have to pay (in full) the same price that was required of sinners - so in addition to laying down His LIFE for us, He would also have to spend eternity in Hell for us - thus He would still (obviously) be there right now; and forever - otherwise, He really didn't pay the price for sin.

If the wages of sin is eternal punishment in Hell, Jesus Himself would have to be eternally punished if He were to pay the full wages of my sins. But the Bible says "the wages of sin is death," (Romans 6:23) - which is exactly what Jesus did -- HE DIED.


So, answer these two questions if you would:

• Is Jesus in Hell right now, presently being tortured for eternity - taking the place of all the sinners He paid the price for? If not; why?
  
  
• If Jesus is in Heaven at the Right Hand of The Father, how could He have paid the full price for sin when, according to your view, the wages of sin is eternal punishment in Hell?

Using Scripture to document, please, answer these two questions.

 

[Mitspa]

I will answer! God will have mercy upon whom He will have mercy, He harden whosoever He will harded. He will destroy whomsoever He has deemed that deserves destuction. Can the thing made say to Him who made it "why did you make me this way" God had and has a purpose for all the things that have been writting. The purpose of all was that every man might come to His Son for salvation. That Jesus Christ would be the Savior of the whole world. That in Him alone the goodness and mercy of God might be seen and known. For He is the express image of the Father, If you have seen Him then you know you have seen the Father.

So the Whole world yet lays in judgment! But those who have humbled themselves at His Cross shall be saved By His Work their. For the Cross works by faith! And no man or woman filled with satans lies can judge God and His justice!

For the great lie "you can be as God knowing good and evil"
This is why some take it upon themselves to judge Gods justice. They think they are "god" that they judge good and evil!

No the Cross is another tree, but one must die to the deception of the "old lie" to partake of the Tree of Life!

 

[Osgiliath]

Mitspa, you totally dodged the two questions. If you are going to answer them, please answer the actual questions directly, without the game of slip and slide! You're not being intellectually honest here, and I think you know it. Oh well, whatever. Am I surprised, of course not.

Anyway:

I will answer! God will have mercy upon whom He will have mercy, He harden whosoever He will harded. He will destroy whomsoever He has deemed that deserves desrtuction.

Even though this is a dodge to the questions, it is a true statement. However, we must remember that the destruction isn't "eternal" and permanent, it is temporary (Hebrew=olam; Greek=aionion), for chastening and purifying purposes. Nor is this "destruction" equate to being tortured and burned with fire throughout time with no end. That's INSANE, and people who believe in eternal torment are nuts. The part of the brain that controls reasoning of any kind has been seared off due to brainwashing and indoctrination. This satanic lie has turned the GOOD NEWS into a false gospel of fear and BLACKMAIL (believe in me, or BURN!). It has taken the beautiful judgments of God and turned them into a sadistic torture chamber, and worse than this, it has rendered the Cross "POWERLESS," it has made a miserable failure of the work of Jesus Christ in that only a small minority of the billions of people who have ever lived will ever see heaven. This heinous pagan doctrine of "eternal" torment maligns the character of God, and portrays Him to be a vindictive, sadistic tyrant; a God of limited forgiveness and love.


Anyone who promotes this insidious lie WILL NOT take part the glorious "FIRST RESURRECTION," and rule and reign as priests with Christ:

Revelation 20:6 "Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years."

Revelation 2:26-27 "And he that overcometh, and keepeth my works unto the end, to him will I give power over the nations: And he shall rule them with a rod of iron."

1 Corinthians 6:2 "Do you not know that the saints will judge the world? And if the world will be judged by you, are you unworthy to judge the smallest matters?"


Jesus will NOT allow people who believe that being tortured and burned with fire for ETERNITY is "fair" and "just!" to "reign as priests" and "judge the world / rule over the nations." That kind of sadistic mentality is NOT FIT to judge ANYONE! For Jesus says:

Matthew 9:13 "But go and learn what this means, I will desire mercy, and not sacrifice"


Those who are "satisfied" with eternal torment, and do not bother to research, and look deep into the meanings of the words falsely translated "eternal," "forever," "everlasting," (olam; aion; aionion); and the words translated "punishment," "hell," as well as properly understanding the "spiritual nature" and "purpose" of the symbolic "LAKE OF FIRE" - are NOT FIT to reign with Christ, and are NOT FIT to "judge the world" (nations) in that glorious 'first resurrection.' They will miss out on an entire age (a symbolic Thousand Years), because of their vindictive, sadistic "burn them at the stake" mentality!


There is not one word about unending punishment in the entire Old Testament. And in the New Testament, where the doctrine appears to be taught, a more careful analysis of the passages show that it’s not taught at all! 'Zoe aionios' eternal life, is not endless life, but life pertaining to a certain age or aeon, or continuing during that aeon. 'Kolasis aionios', rendered everlasting punishment (Matthew 25:46), is the punishment peculiar to an aeon other then that in which Christ is speaking. The "everlasting punishment" of the King James Version is actually "chastening eonian" in the Greek. ("Eternal" is a mistranslation of the Greek aion, meaning "eon," which always has to do with time.) The "life eternal" is correctly translated "life eonian." This passage has nothing to do with where people will spend eternity.


But people don't even care to look into this because they are "satisfied" and content with the savage, barbaric, pagan, blasphemous teaching of eternal torment - as long as they are "saved." By accepting, and being "satisfied" with such a demonic, ludicrous teaching about the god they worship, they have proven they have NO LOVE for truth, and have NO USE for the Word of God! They are consumed with SELF, and their own beloved PRIDE! They are those who think:

Revelation 3:17 "Because thou sayest, I am rich, and increased with goods, and have need of nothing; and knowest not that thou art wretched, and miserable, and poor, and blind, and naked."




To put it plainly, like the primitive pagans, they require an eternal sacrifice to appease the demands of their angry god(s). Though God says:

"I desire mercy, NOT sacrifice." (Matthew 9:13)

Go learn what that means!


Most Christians WANT eternal torment to be true, that is why they are content, and do not bother getting to the bottom of THE TRUTH! They would rather have their moment of glory they are so looking forward to, the moment when they have the opportunity to say: "I TOLD YOU SO!" and have 99% of humankind severely burned with fire and tortured forever, than have MERCY!




The teaching of eternal torment is responsible for more atheists in the world than ANY other motive. Hear what they say:

"You are giving us God? No.We don't want "your god." Your 'all-loving' Deity must be loved or He loses His mind. Your Jesus has an ego problem with those who don't believe in him. If we don't return His 'affections,' He tortures you in fire for eternity. LOVE HIM OR ELSE is the 'call of grace' from your houses of God. You call that "GOOD NEWS?" It's the worst form of BLACKMAIL I've ever heard, even though it is gift-wrapped in stained glass and Gospel Singers. You are blind yourselves to your own imperfections. And now we should reward you with right behavior? Why should WE LOVE OUR ENEMIES? Your own God does not love His enemies, but rather turns His back on them and tortures them in everlasting flames! What a crock! Is it our task to outperform Him by loving our enemies, even though he will brutally torture his enemies forever? If we can, He isn't God. Many do love your brand of Savior. We call them hypocrites. As for us, we will stick to science, or shop for calmer, more loving deities."


That is what the false doctrines of Orthodox Christendom have done, especially the infamous false doctrine from the mouth of THE BEAST [MAN] HIMSELF; eternal torment! Disgraceful and disgusting!



These words of Jesus in the following verse are spot on for those who have been given eyes to see:

Matthew 23:15 "Woe to you, religious leaders, you hypocrites! You travel over land and sea to win a single convert, and when you have succeeded, you make them twice as much a child of hell [Gehenna] as you are."



[above - - Hell = Gehenna] (Greek: γέεννα), Gehinnom (Hebrew: גהנום/גהנם)

 

[Mitspa]

Again you desire to replace your sense of good and evil that came from the tree and satans lie! You take the position that you know what is justice and God must act according to your judgment! Well I am sorry! If God desires to tormet someone forever? Then God will do exactly what He thinks they deserve! If he says they deserve eternal punishment then He is the One to know and not you and not I!

I condemn no one! I desire that all would come and be saved by the FREE GIFT of salvation by faith in Christ.

Now I will not assume to tell God what is right and what is wrong! He tells me what is just and unjust! I live by His Word, aqnd to deny the clear warnings of scripture is not a possibility for me! You may make-up whatever nonsense you like? I will abide in His Word! Maybe He could make hell a little more real for you? I will ask for you if you would like to know for sure?

Are you willing to ask Him? Tell Him you dont believe in hell and ask to know the truth? I need not that lesson! But some do any many have testified to its reality! I suggest you read some of those books!

 

[Osgiliath]

Again you desire to replace your sense of good and evil that came from the tree and satans lie! You take the position that you know what is justice and God must act according to your judgment! Well I am sorry! If God desires to tormet someone forever? Then God will do exactly what He thinks they deserve! If he says they deserve eternal punishment then He is the One to know and not you and not I!

That's a crock and you know it! Like I said, you are satisfied and content with YOUR doctrine, so you don't bother to look into it deeper!

Our English word eon is derived from the Greek word aion. (Remember, the New Testament was originally written in Greek.) It even sounds like it and is nearly spelled the same. Obviously, it would be the perfect translation of aion. An eon is "a duration of time." So is an aion. (Without even getting into the Greek and Hebrew, you can simply look at W.E. Vine’s An Expository Dictionary of New Testament Words. Vine defines aion as "an age, era; signifies a period of indefinite duration, or time viewed in relation to what takes place in the period.") Had this word been left to speak for itself (many translations do just that, putting "eon" for aion, always, and "eonian" for aionion), the false terror of eternal torment would never have arisen to deceive the saints and turn the world from God. Several versions do translate it consistently. (see Rotherham’s Emphasized Bible, and Young’s Literal Translation, and many more)

The ineptness of the orthodox translators can be easily verified. Look up the words "ages," "world," "eternal," "everlasting" and "forever" in either a Strong's or a Young's concordance. (These reference tools list every word in the King James Version and their source word from the original languages.) You will find that these words, a veritable hodge-podge, are all interpretations of this single Greek noun (aion) and its adjective.

Such orthodox interpretations are not only disparate, they are ridiculous. The same Greek word cannot mean ages in one place and forever in another. Ages have to do with time and plurality, while forever is the opposite of time and defies duplication. (If you wish to imagine two forevers, as in "forever AND ever" go for it :p.) Can one word mean both day and night? Neither can one word mean both time and no time. An orthodox bias has made fools of many otherwise intelligent men. If you are honest and truly seek TRUTH, you won't continue to be in that group!

 

[Mitspa]

So that changes nothing about anything I have said! I made the point that God decides who is punished and for how long and for what reason! He is the Just and Holy One! If its for a period or whatever? Hell is not going to be fun for anyone that goes! And all evil will be destroyed! All men are evil of themselves all must come into Christ for salvation! Now you "pretend" that you decide these things? I say thats all pride and very ignorant of clear scripture! I say that you would replace your own sense of good and evil for Gods judgment! you are in great error!

 

[Mitspa]

If one was to look at some of the recent post made on this thread they could see how needed the Cross really is for all men? DENY YOURSELF, TAKE UP YOUR CROSS AND FOLLOW ME!

FATHER,NOT MY WILL BUT YOURS BE DONE!

see the Cross is the place where the SELF WILL of all must die! For the tree of knowledge of good and evil makes all men replace their own sense of moral judgment for that of Gods.
We think that we know what is right and what is wrong!

God says we do not!
Satan says "ye shall not surely die" the Cross says all flesh must die! All must become a fool at the Cross to be made wise!

Just as the legalist and self-righteous cannot allow that God justifies the ungodly by faith. For God decides what is just and what is fair!
These universal salvation folks would replace Gods moral judgment with thier own false sense of moral justice.
Both groups reject Gods righteousness and go about to establish their own ideas of what is good and what is evil!

Carnal and blind people who know nothing about God nor his justice!

No all must go and die to the "old man" at the Cross of Jesus Christ! All who claim to follow Him will be crucified with its power!

 

[Osgiliath]

Figures! Why don't we just redact half of the Bible while were at it! Let's plug away with glee, teaching about how God will torture 99% of His children in unimaginable agony for eternity, but when comes to God's infinite LOVE and MERCY - NO WAY! How sad!

 

[Mitspa]

look I have the fire that burns away the natural and brings that which is spiritual. Nothing of this world will be taken into the eternal realm. All that is saved is saved by fire, it seems we agree on part of that truth. Be if you cannot seperate that truth from the truth of the jugdment of those who reject salvation? I do not think you are seeing the scriptures as clearly as you think you are? The FACT is that some will not and cannot understand spiritual truth. Because the God of this world has blinded them by the law and their own carnal minds.

Fear is a real tool of salvation in the hands of a righteous man who knows its purpose and knows Gods love for all men.

As far as the "church" world and the doctrines that are taught by most? They are in fact just carnal folks telling other carnal folks what their carnal ears are itching to hear. I have been taught by the Spirit of Wisdom and revelation apart from any denom our doctrines and traditions of men. Now I must admit that I just ignore most of what you have posted because you appear to justify men apart from faith in Christ? That my friend is not a debatable issue in any way for me! I know the scriptures very well and none every in any way ever suggest such a thing! Now you have just shown that you may have some understanding of spiritual things, that can come from two sources? I am willing to listen and consider you veiws again. But this universal salvation stuff will not have any place with me. I think God may have a place of mercy for many that others would condemn! But I do not go beyond the scriptures with my own judgment or desires. I love with the love of Christ! I know His desire to save is beyond measure, and most have no understanding of His Goodness and mercy. But I must abide in what is written and the truth of hell should not be pushed aside by wishful thinking or a confusion in the meaning of scriptures.

 

[ezra]

the message of the cross is jesus died for our sins so we can be forgiven.. Romans 10:9-10 . his resurrection give us eternal life--- power from on high... all this other so called doctrine of words is dung. get back to the basics the rest will follow suit.

 

[Osgiliath]

the message of the cross is jesus died for our sins so we can be forgiven.. Romans 10:9-10 . his resurrection give us eternal life--- power from on high... all this other so called doctrine of words is dung. get back to the basics the rest will follow suit.

Yeah, back to basics - like the doctrine of BLACKMAIL - believe in Jesus, or BURN IN HELL FOREVER! The basics, like the doctrine of God bringing people into this world, without their consent, only to see if they would be smart enough and strong enough to avoid being fried like a piece of bacon over a spit for eternity.

Jesus told us that the blasphemous religious system of the world would threaten us with this very thing - word for word:

Revelation 13:15 ".......THE IMAGE of the beast should both speak and cause as many as would not worship the image of the beast to be killed."

This is exactly what Orthodox Christendom does, is it not? Believe in "the IMAGE" of OUR GOD, or you will be killed - burned at the stake - or will burn in hell for eternity!

 

[Mitspa]

the message of the cross is jesus died for our sins so we can be forgiven.. Romans 10:9-10 . his resurrection give us eternal life--- power from on high... all this other so called doctrine of words is dung. get back to the basics the rest will follow suit.

Well not sure of your point Ezra? but all the "basics" are and have their foundation in and at the Cross. The point of starting this thread is that so few seem to fail at dying with Him to the flesh, and walking in the resurrection life. The Power of the Cross is to crucifiy the natural mind, so that the life of the spirit within can be released by a "renewed" mind.

The Cross was a the "place of the skull" When Paul said I am determined to KNOW NOTHING BUT JESUS CHRIST AND HIM CRUCIFIED. he was not just sounding religious, but showing us part of the mystery. I do not claim to have all that mystery but I have gone to the Cross and and seen its power.

Please do not be offended by my response, your post seemed to belittle the whole topic? Although you may have been referring to the recent discussion that has come about?

Either way? peace be with you.

 

[Mitspa]

Yeah, back to basics - like the doctrine of BLACKMAIL - believe in Jesus, or BURN IN HELL FOREVER! The basics, like the doctrine of God bringing people into this world, without their consent, only to see if they would be smart enough and strong enough to avoid being fried like a piece of bacon over a spit for eternity.

Jesus told us that the blasphemous religious system of the world would threaten us with this very thing - word for word:

Revelation 13:15 ".......THE IMAGE of the beast should both speak and cause as many as would not worship the image of the beast to be killed."

This is exactly what Orthodox Christendom does, is it not? Believe in "the IMAGE" of OUR GOD, or you will be killed - burned at the stake - or will burn in hell for eternity!

I must say Oshgilath, I have been on this forum for months now and no one seems to promote hell and such as you do!

Also if God has made you wise? You would recognize that this desire to judge others comes from being under law. Those who preach the law judge and condemn, no matter if they are calling it faith. Your doctrines only seem to stir-up this religious and false zeal that they have! You seem to add fuel to the flame?
No come and learn sound doctrine and the word of grace! Preach the gospel not your own sense of moral justice! Then you will be on the side of truth! But for now your just as wrong as those you accuse!

 

[ezra]

your post seemed to belittle the whole topic?

no you read into it what you saw... back and forth my doctrine is better.. i simply posted the basics..... in which we often forget " The Power of the Cross is to crucifiy the natural mind, so that the life of the spirit within can be released by a "renewed" mind." that is another basic of the cross Our Cross . the Cross of Christ is payment for our sins.... i have told you many times i am not religious . we are either a sinner that has been saved by Grace.. or a sinner that needs saved by the Grace of God.. there is your basics when paul wrote seek ye 1st the kingdom of God and HIS RIGHTEOUSNESS and all these things will be added . what things Holiness sanctified --SET APART we are made Holy at the moment of conversion ..the next step we are to Grow in the Grace and Knowledge of the Lord. changed from Glory to Glory we are a W.I.P the growth never stops. the last step when we go home to be with Jesus... our last step is finished a full complete vessel of honor no longer in need of repair. and yes walking in the resurrection life. is what we have to do down here on earth.. so often if not careful we walk alone And there is where we are in need of the savior. i rest my case...:amen

 

[ezra]

Yeah, back to basics - like the doctrine of BLACKMAIL - believe in Jesus, or BURN IN HELL FOREVER! The basics, like the doctrine of God bringing people into this world, without their consent, only to see if they would be smart enough and strong enough to avoid being fried like a piece of bacon over a spit for eternity.

Jesus told us that the blasphemous religious system of the world would threaten us with this very thing - word for word:

Revelation 13:15 ".......THE IMAGE of the beast should both speak and cause as many as would not worship the image of the beast to be killed."

This is exactly what Orthodox Christendom does, is it not? Believe in "the IMAGE" of OUR GOD, or you will be killed - burned at the stake - or will burn in hell for eternity!

first off you need to come out of left field .. there is no black mail with Christ fact is your either saved or your not saved.. to types of eternity Eternal life or eternal damnation the plan of salvation is open to all who will accept