The Pre Tribulation Rapture: Fact or Fiction?

[P31Woman]

I. Historical Argument​

1. The early church believed in the imminency of the Lord’s return, which is an essential doctrine of pretribulationism.
2. The detailed development of pretribulational truth during the past few centuries does not prove that the doctrine is new or novel. Its development is similar to that of other major doctrines in the history of the church.

II. Hermeneutics​

3. Pretribulationism is the only view which allows a literal interpretation of all Old and New Testament passages on the great tribulation.
4. Only pretribulationism distinguishes clearly between Israel and the church and their respective programs.

III. The Nature of the Tribulation​

5. Pretribulationism maintains the Scriptural distinction between the great tribulation and tribulation in general which precedes it.
6. The great tribulation is properly interpreted by pretribulationists as a time of preparation for Israel’s restoration (Deut. 4:29-30; Jer. 30:4-11). It is not the purpose of the tribulation to prepare the church for glory.
7. None of the Old Testament passages on the tribulation mention the church (Deut. 4:29-30; Jer. 30:4-11; Dan. 9:24-27; Dan. 12:1-2).
8. None of the New Testament passages on the tribulation mention the church (Matt. 24:15-31; 1 Thess. 1:9-10; 1 Thess. 5:4-9; Rev. 4—Rev. 19).
9. In contrast to midtribulationism, the pretribulational view provides an adequate explanation for the beginning of the great tribulation in Revelation 6. Midtribulationism is refuted by the plain teaching of Scripture that the great tribulation begins long before the seventh trumpet of Revelation 11.
10. The proper distinction is maintained between the prophetic trumpets of Scripture by pretribulationism. There is no proper ground for the pivotal argument of midtribulationism that the seventh trumpet of Revelation is the last trumpet in that there is no established connection between the seventh trumpet of Revelation 11, the last trumpet of 1 Corinthians 15:52, and the trumpet of Matthew 24:31. They are three distinct events.
11. The unity of Daniel’s seventieth week is maintained by pretribulationists. By contrast, midtribulationism destroys the unity of Daniel’s seventieth week and confuses Israel’s program with that of the church.

IV. The Nature of the Church​

12. The translation of the church is never mentioned in any passage dealing with the second coming of Christ after the tribulation.
13. The church is not appointed to wrath (Rom. 5:9; 1 Thess. 1:9-10; 1 Thess. 5:9). The church therefore cannot enter “the great day of their wrath” (Rev. 6:17).
14. The church will not be overtaken by the Day of the Lord (1 Thess. 5:1-9) which includes the tribulation.
15. The possibility of a believer escaping the tribulation is mentioned in Luke 21:36.
16. The church of Philadelphia was promised deliverance from “the hour of trial, that hour which is to come upon the whole world, to try them that dwell upon the earth” (Rev. 3:10).
17. It is characteristic of divine dealing to deliver believers before a divine judgment is inflicted upon the world as illustrated in the deliverance of Noah, Lot, Rahab, etc. (2 Pet. 2:6-9).
18. At the time of the translation of the church, all believers go to the Father’s house in heaven, and do not remain on the earth as taught by posttribulationists (John 14:3).
19. Pretribulationism does not divide the body of Christ at the rapture on a works principle. The teaching of a partial rapture is based on the false doctrine that the translation of the church is a reward for good works. It is rather a climactic aspect of salvation by grace.
20. The Scriptures clearly teach that all, not part, of the church will be raptured at the coming of Christ for the church (1 Cor. 15:51-52; 1 Thess. 4:17).
21. As opposed to a view of a partial rapture, pretribulationism is founded on the definite teaching of Scripture that the death of Christ frees from all condemnation.
22. The godly remnant of the tribulation are pictured as Israelites, not members of the church as maintained by the posttribulationists.
23. The pretribulational view as opposed to posttribulationism does not confuse general terms like elect and saints which apply to the saved of all ages with specific terms like the church and those in Christ which refer to believers of this age only.

V. The Doctrine of Imminency​

24. The pretribulational interpretation is the only view which teaches that the coming of Christ is actually imminent.
25. The exhortation to be comforted by the coming of the Lord (1 Thess. 4:18) is significant only in the pretribulational view, and is especially contradicted by posttribulationism.
26. The exhortation to look for “the glorious appearing” (Titus 2:13) loses its significance if the tribulation must intervene first. Believers in that case should look for signs.
27. The exhortation to purify ourselves in view of the Lord’s return has most significance if His coming is imminent (1 John 3:2-3).
28. The church is uniformly exhorted to look for the coming of the Lord, while believers in the tribulation are directed to look for signs.

VI. The Work of the Holy Spirit​

29. The Holy Spirit as the Restrainer of evil cannot be taken out of the world unless the church, which the Spirit indwells, is translated at the same time. The tribulation cannot begin until this restraint is lifted.
30. The Holy Spirit as the Restrainer must be taken out of the world before “the lawless one,” who dominates the tribulation period, can be revealed (2 Thess. 2:6-8).
31. If the expression, “except the falling away come first, be translated literally, “except the departure come first, it would plainly show the necessity of the rapture taking place before the beginning of the tribulation.

VII. The Necessity of an Interval between the Rapture and Second Coming​

32. According to 2 Corinthians 5:10, all believers of this age must appear before the judgment seat of Christ in heaven, an event never mentioned in the detailed accounts connected with the second coming of Christ to the earth.
33. If the twenty-four elders of Revelation 4:1—Revelation 5:14 are representative of the church, as many expositors believe, it would necessitate the rapture and reward of the church before the tribulation.
34. The marriage of Christ and the church must be celebrated in heaven before the second coming to the earth for the wedding feast (Rev. 19:7-10).
35. Tribulation saints are not translated at the second coming of Christ but carry on ordinary occupations such as farming and building houses, and shall bear children (Isa. 65:20-25). This would be impossible if all saints were translated at the second coming to the earth as posttribulationists teach.
36. The judgment of the Gentiles following the second coming (Matt. 25:31-46) indicates that both saved and unsaved are still in their natural bodies, which would be impossible if the translation had taken place at the second coming.
37. If the translation took place in connection with the second coming to the earth, there would be no need of separating the sheep from the goats at a subsequent judgment, but the separation would have taken place in the very act of the translation of the believers before Christ actually came to the earth.
38. The judgment of Israel (Ezek. 20:34-38) which occurs subsequent to the second coming indicates the necessity of regathering Israel. The separation of the saved from the unsaved in this judgment obviously takes place sometime after the second coming and would be unnecessary if a translation of the saved had taken place previously.

VIII. Contrasts between the Rapture and the Second Coming​

39. At the time of the rapture the saints meet Christ in the air, while at the second coming Christ returns to the Mount of Olives to meet the saints on earth.
40. At the time of the rapture the Mount of Olives is unchanged, while at the second coming it divides and a valley is formed to the east of Jerusalem (Zech. 14:4-5).
41. At the rapture living saints are translated, while no saints are translated in connection with the second coming of Christ to the earth.
42. At the rapture the saints go to heaven, while at the second coming to the earth the saints remain in the earth without translation.
43. At the time of the rapture the world is unjudged and continues in sin, while at the second coming the world is judged and righteousness is established in the earth.
44. The translation of the church is pictured as a deliverance before the day of wrath, while the second coming is followed by the deliverance of those who have believed in Christ during the tribulation.
45. The rapture is described as imminent, while the second coming is preceded by definite signs.
46. The translation of living believers is truth revealed only in the New Testament, while the second coming with its attendant events is a prominent doctrine of both Testaments.
47. The rapture concerns only the saved, while the second coming deals with both saved and unsaved.
48. At the rapture Satan is not bound, while at the second coming Satan is bound and cast into the abyss.
49. No unfulfilled prophecy stands between the church and the rapture, while many signs must be fulfilled before the second coming.
50. No passage dealing with the resurrection of saints at the second coming in either Testament ever mentions a translation of living saints at the same time.

Fifty Arguments for Pretribulationism by John F. Walvoord
http://chafer-cstn.org/BaseT/ESCHA/Rapture/PreTrib50Args.Walvoord.103A2A.htm

They did not keep him as the President of Dallas Theological Seminary for over 30 years because he was a biblical dummy.

 

[farouk]

P31Woman:

Yes, generally speaking, what you quoted from the material supplied by agape would also be my understanding of the issues.

 

[Agape]

They did not keep him as the President of Dallas Theological Seminary for over 30 years because he was a biblical dummy.

Agreed! That list is just a summary, but you can read how he developed his arguments here http://bible.org/byauthor/225/John F. Walvoord (make sure you click on the "show more" button at the bottom of each list)

and on his own site http://www.walvoord.com/viewseries

 

[SlickPen50]

Agape's post of Walvoord and Chafer, is pure theological gerrymandering. Yes the early church thought that Christ's return was eminent... And many were put off by the fact that it didn't happen...

But guess what? They had their eyes on something it should not have been on... They interpreted wrongly.

So here comes Dispensationalism, Darby, Scoffield and Chafer to try and focus on some other minor pieces of the NT in order to explain what doesn't need explaining... and poof, we have Rapture and Pre-trib teaching. All they did was infuse new theological extrapolations into former terminology and perspectives and they made a school of thought... Wow, big whoop!

It doesn't prove anything other than folks can find something else to fight with others over and become a focus that is minor in a major way.

You think it protects you and makes you right to believe such... But the question you can't answer, nor do you even consider, is: what if your wrong? You can't conceive of this because you have aligned everything on a board that in your mind says, "with all this lined up, your right," which utterly precludes thinking and consideration. And about a future event, you think you know?

Sorry guys, it doesn't square with my understanding of God, of history, of declared things of God, with how millions have suffered for their faith, and the pathology I so commonly find with people who hold to this ideal.

 

[SlickPen50]

Reba, My word "gerrymandering" is not a rude term. It is a political term describes the convenient redistricting of people in order to serve a purpose for a party... It applies to our discussion in that theologians do the same thing... The conveniently play upon words and concepts people do understand using things in a different way to launch their new ideas...

 

[reba]

Reba, My word "gerrymandering" is not a rude term. It is a political term describes the convenient redistricting of people in order to serve a purpose for a party... It applies to our discussion in that theologians do the same thing... The conveniently play upon words and concepts people do understand using things in a different way to launch their new ideas...

This is the line removed for rudeness

I can read unlike some others on this forum who spot specific words they don't
like, correlate you to them and then comment...

Slick you would do well to stop the public challenge of moderation.....

1.13: The line of authority at ChristianForums.net is Global Moderators, Super Moderators, Administrators, and Site Owner. Moderators deal with the day-to-day running of the forums, and any concerns about moderation should be directed to the staff member in charge of that particular forum, or the staff member who has taken action that you wish to contest. Moderators are not obligated to argue in defense of actions they take. Members are at liberty to clarify an action taken with the Moderator, but they are not to persist when they are not satisfied with the response received. If a member disagrees with a Moderator's first response, they are not to persist or take their dispute public. At that point, the appropriate step is to PM an Administrator. Administrators deal with the overall running of the site both on a technical side and also as a Staff Leadership role (as well as performing some moderation duties). Concerns on the site as a whole, technical issues or issues unsatisfactorily dealt with by moderators should be brought to the attention of the Administrators. Please note that an Administrator's word is final. Questions about finances should be directed to the Site Owner, but please note any other issues should be directed to Administrators, as the Site Owner does not engage with the running of the forums themselves.

Because you make this public... I will tell you publicly, this is the last warning before infractions.

 

[farouk]

Agape's quoted post from Mr Walvoord is all about word studies, and distinguishing words and meanings, context by context. It's good approach by which get a gradual big picture about the different aspects/stages of the Lord's coming.

 

[farouk]

Anyway, the great aspiration among Christians is as said in Revelation 22: 'Even so, come Lord Jesus'.

 

[farouk]

Yeah, control and manipulation are foundational with Christians... You can bet I learned that over and over....

Try Ephesians 4.32

 

[Eugene]

Ok maybe i am missing your point...i don't see anything about a pre-tribulation escape in these verses.

Fair enough. I take by the absence of you addressing the issue that you agree that John is receiving and being shown things concerning God's people; in this book of Revelation starting with the Church.

Would you agree that prophesy must be divided to the time frame intended? With that in mind, what or when do you read as being the "Lord's Day" told us in Revelation 1:10. "I was in the Spirit on the Lord's Day."

Thanks.

 

[Agape]

Yes the early church thought that Christ's return was eminent... And many were put off by the fact that it didn't happen...

But guess what? They had their eyes on something it should not have been on... They interpreted wrongly.

Oh the apostles, chosen by the Lord, were wrong but you are right???

From the very earliest days of the church, the apostles and first-generation Christians nurtured an earnest expectation and fervent hope that Christ might suddenly return at any time to gather His church to heaven. James, writing what was probably the earliest of the New Testament epistles, expressly told his readers that the Lord’s return was imminent:

Be patient, brethren, until the coming of the Lord. See how the farmer waits for the precious fruit of the earth, waiting patiently for it until it receives the early and latter rain. You also be patient. Establish your hearts, for the coming of the Lord is at hand. Do not grumble against one another, brethren, lest you be condemned. Behold, the Judge is standing at the door! (James 5:7–9, emphasis added).

Peter echoed that same expectation when he wrote, “The end of all things is at hand; therefore be serious and watchful in your prayers” (1 Pet 4:7). The writer of Hebrews cited the imminent return of Christ as a reason to remain faithful: “Let us consider one another in order to stir up love and good works, not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together, as is the manner of some, but exhorting one another, and so much the more as you see the Day approaching” (Heb 10:24–25). He wrote, “Yet a little while, and He who is coming will come and will not tarry” (v. 37). And the apostle John made the most confident pronouncement of all: “Little children, it is the last hour; and as you have heard that the Antichrist is coming, even now many antichrists have come, by which we know that it is the last hour” (1 John 2:18). When John recorded his vision in the book of Revelation, he prefaced it by saying these things “must shortly take place” (Rev 1:1).

The New Testament writers often wrote of Christ’s “appearing,” and they never failed to convey the sense that this could happen imminently. “And now, little children, abide in Him, that when He appears, we may have confidence and not be ashamed before Him at His coming” (1 John 2:28; cf. 3:2; Col 3:4; 2 Tim 4:8; 1 Pet 5:4).

All those texts suggest that in the early church expectation of Christ’s imminent return ran high. A solid conviction that Christ could return at any time permeates the whole NT. When the apostle Paul described the Lord’s coming for the church, he used personal pronouns that show he clearly was convinced he himself might be among those who would be caught up alive to meet the Lord: “We who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord … . we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air” (1 Thess 4:15, 17, emphasis added). He obviously looked for Christ to return in his lifetime. He furthermore made it plain that a watchful, hopeful expectancy about Christ’s Second Coming is one of the godly attitudes divine grace teaches all believers: “For the grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to all men, teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly in the present age, looking for the blessed hope and glorious appearing of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ” (Titus 2:11–13, emphasis added).

http://www.gty.org/resources/articles/A368

 

[Grappler]

Fair enough. I take by the absence of you addressing the issue that you agree that John is receiving and being shown things concerning God's people; in this book of Revelation starting with the Church.

Would you agree that prophesy must be divided to the time frame intended? With that in mind, what or when do you read as being the "Lord's Day" told us in Revelation 1:10. "I was in the Spirit on the Lord's Day."

Thanks.

The Lord's Day?? Here John is refering probably to Sunday. I thought the topic of this thread was about the Pre-Tribulation Rapture??

 

[Grappler]

If there is no rapture at all, why are taught to expect the Lords return at any moment? Philippians 3:20, Titus 2:13, Hebrews 9:28, 1 Thessalonians 1:10, 4:18, 5:6, Revelation 22:20...

Even Paul seemed to include himself in this belief in 1 Thessalonians 4: 15 (!) ("we")

Apparently, Believers in Paul's time were quitting their jobs in expectation of the Lords return? They had to be chided to go back to work! 2 Thessalonians 2: 1-17 (entire chapter) Why else would (believers! "bretheren" he was writing to a Church) not be working? Because they expected the Lord to return?!!



Absolutely!

Listen...Matthew 24:29-31 makes it very clear that the gathering of the elect will occur AFTER the days of tribulation that are coming upon the Earth shortly before the Lord returns. Until any of you address this scripture you are just "spinning your wheels". Please address these simple verses or i will move onto another topic.

 

[reba]

A solid conviction that Christ could return
at any time permeates the whole NT. When the apostle Paul described the
Lord’s coming for the church, he used personal pronouns that show he clearly was
convinced he himself might be among those who would be caught up alive to meet
the Lord

Act_3:21 Whom the heaven must receive until the times of restitution of all things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began.

How does this quote fit with this verse?

 

[Eugene]

Fair enough. I take by the absence of you addressing the issue that you agree that John is receiving and being shown things concerning God's people; in this book of Revelation starting with the Church.

Would you agree that prophesy must be divided to the time frame intended? With that in mind, what or when do you read as being the "Lord's Day" told us in Revelation 1:10. "I was in the Spirit on the Lord's Day."

Thanks.

The Lord's Day?? Here John is refering probably to Sunday. I thought the topic of this thread was about the Pre-Tribulation Rapture??

The subject of pre-tribulation must be subject to time and occurrence, and to categorically state there is no such animal should be supported with a foundation of fact and not just dismissing the possibility. John found him in spirit on the Lord's Day which is a clue as to the timing of these revelations he was given. I will say that it is not Sunday and has to do with the Day of the Lord, and other references such as "In that day, etc. We must have a timing viewpoint or this whole subject is mute.

Thank Grappler.

 

[Grappler]

The subject of pre-tribulation must be subject to time and occurrence, and to categorically state there is no such animal should be supported with a foundation of fact and not just dismissing the possibility. John found him in spirit on the Lord's Day which is a clue as to the timing of these revelations he was given. I will say that it is not Sunday and has to do with the Day of the Lord, and other references such as "In that day, etc. We must have a timing viewpoint or this whole subject is mute.

Thank Grappler.

You see that is the problem Eugene. In order to find scripture to support the pre-trib. rapture escape you have to take a verse here and a verse there and then it might mean this or it might mean that...i don't do that when scripture plainly teaches something no matter what the topic is. Please see my post #77. Thanks.

 

[Grappler]

In Revelation we have John's vision. In Revelation 1:12 he sees seven golden Lampstands, or candlesticks. In Revelation 1: 20 they are identified as the Church! They are in heaven when John arrives! The 24 Elders in chapter 5 sure seem to be identified as the redeemed in Revelation 5: 9-10 and Worship God before the Lamb receives the scroll. In Revelation chapter 6 the scroll is opened and it is then that the Judgments proceed. The Church and the Redeemed are already in heaven at that point. The Great Tribulation begins when the scroll is unsealed.

Revelation 6: 16-17 says (Here comes the Wrath promised), and is the wrath that Gods people were promised to not have to endure in 1 Thessalonians 1:10 and 1 Thessalonians 5:9.

And they wont, because they will already be in heaven. This must be right because all these scriptures back each other up in that respect.

Please see post #77.

 

[Agape]

In order to find scripture to support the pre-trib. rapture escape you have to take a verse here and a verse there and then it might mean this or it might mean that.

give me examples

 

[vocalyocal]

They did not keep him as the President of Dallas Theological Seminary for over 30 years because he was a biblical dummy.

OOOOWWWWWWWW.........

 

[Grappler]

give me examples

Please see post #77. And for examples see post #79. Also for more examples look at your own posts...No where in scripture does it say anything about a

pre-tribulation rapture...so why do you believe it? because you take verses that do not say anything about a pre-tribulation rapture and make them into something that you want it to say NOT actually what it says. Now please see post #77. Thanks.