The Pre Tribulation Rapture: Fact or Fiction?

[farouk]

Listen...Matthew 24:29-31 makes it very clear that the gathering of the elect will occur AFTER the days of tribulation that are coming upon the Earth shortly before the Lord returns. Until any of you address this scripture you are just "spinning your wheels". Please address these simple verses or i will move onto another topic.

G:

I think it can be acknowledged usefully that at various times God has been dealing in sovereignty both with Israel and with the church. So there is a sense in which the term 'elect', at different times, can apply to both. In Ephesians 1, for example, God's sovereign purposes are seen with regard to the church. In Romans 9, 10 and 11, for example, we see them in relation to Israel.

When we speak of the Lord's return, it can also be usefully distinguished whether the aspect of His coming relates to taking up His church in the clouds (1 Thess. 4), or whether it with a view to executing His judgment and reign upon the earth. The Matthew passage has a strong Jewish background, in any case.

 

[Eugene]

You see that is the problem Eugene. In order to find scripture to support the pre-trib. rapture escape you have to take a verse here and a verse there and then it might mean this or it might mean that...i don't do that when scripture plainly teaches something no matter what the topic is. Please see my post #77. Thanks.

Post #77 - Listen...Matthew 24:29-31 makes it very clear that the gathering of the elect will occur AFTER the days of tribulation that are coming upon the Earth shortly before the Lord returns. Until any of you address this scripture you are just "spinning your wheels". Please address these simple verses or i will move onto another topic.

OK, with that rationale we should apply that none will ever be saved unless they endure till the end of the tribulation. It appears those gathered of Matthew 24:31 are the remnants of those spared through the tribulation. Matthew 10:22 And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that endureth to the end shall be saved.

 

[Agape]

Listen...Matthew 24:29-31 makes it very clear that the gathering of the elect will occur AFTER the days of tribulation that are coming upon the Earth shortly before the Lord returns. Until any of you address this scripture you are just "spinning your wheels". Please address these simple verses or i will move onto another topic.

Please see post #77. And for examples see post #79. Also for more examples look at your own posts...No where in scripture does it say anything about a

pre-tribulation rapture...so why do you believe it? because you take verses that do not say anything about a pre-tribulation rapture and make them into something that you want it to say NOT actually what it says. Now please see post #77. Thanks.

I am impressed by your exegetical skills! Can you please tell me what "those days" is referring to in Matthew 24:29?

Matthew 24:29 "Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken."

 

[jasoncran]

so you all literally take that verse on the stars falling? imagine a g class star impacting the earth? uh the g class is the size of our sun.

 

[Grappler]

G:

I think it can be acknowledged usefully that at various times God has been dealing in sovereignty both with Israel and with the church. So there is a sense in which the term 'elect', at different times, can apply to both. In Ephesians 1, for example, God's sovereign purposes are seen with regard to the church. In Romans 9, 10 and 11, for example, we see them in relation to Israel.

When we speak of the Lord's return, it can also be usefully distinguished whether the aspect of His coming relates to taking up His church in the clouds (1 Thess. 4), or whether it with a view to executing His judgment and reign upon the earth. The Matthew passage has a strong Jewish background, in any case.

Ahh and there is the crux of the problem. You have been misled by the Zionists to believe that there is some kind of difference between the church and Israel but when we read scripture we see something entirely different. Paul in Galatians 3 makes it clear that all in Christ have inherited the promises God made to Abraham...we have become part of Israel. If that is not enough then please read Romans 11 where Paul writes that believing Gentiles are "grafted" into Israel. They become part of Israel. This is what the New Covenant is all about. There is no longer Jew or Greek. True children of God become part of Israel...the true Israel.

 

[Grappler]

I am impressed by your exegetical skills! Can you please tell me what "those days" is referring to in Matthew 24:29?

Matthew 24:29 "Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken."

Oh thats easy..."those days" are part of a prophecy...a prophecy is a future event. The future event that Jesus was speaking of was His return...so "those days" are the days shortly before his return...and if you notice the gathering of his elect will occur AFTER the tribulation of "those days". Did you really not know that?? or was you trying to be cute?

 

[farouk]

Ahh and there is the crux of the problem. You have been misled by the Zionists to believe that there is some kind of difference between the church and Israel but when we read scripture we see something entirely different.

Actually I am not aware of how Zionists have influenced my thinking; in fact, people such as Scofield and Darby were pointing out such distinctions long before there were many people around known as Zionists. You don't know me, and your claim about me is not accurate.

Paul in Galatians 3 makes it clear that all in Christ have inherited the promises God made to Abraham...we have become part of Israel. If that is not enough then please read Romans 11 where Paul writes that believing Gentiles are "grafted" into Israel. They become part of Israel. This is what the New Covenant is all about. There is no longer Jew or Greek. True children of God become part of Israel...the true Israel.

But Paul also makes a point of pointing out the distinctions between the Jew, the Gentile and the church of God (1 Corinthians 10.32). Being 'a Jew inwardly' as Paul says in Romans, is not the same as to say that the church and Israel supposedly become subsumed into each other. The church is a heavenly people, Israel is an earthly people.

 

[Agape]

Oh thats easy..."those days" are part of a prophecy...a prophecy is a future event. The future event that Jesus was speaking of was His return...so "those days" are the days shortly before his return..

Scriptures please

 

[Grappler]

Actually I am not aware of how Zionists have influenced my thinking; in fact, people such as Scofield and Darby were pointing out such distinctions long before there were many people around known as Zionists. You don't know me, and your claim about me is not accurate.



But Paul also makes a point of pointing out the distinctions between the Jew, the Gentile and the church of God (1 Corinthians 10.32). Being 'a Jew inwardly' as Paul says in Romans, is not the same as to say that the church and Israel supposedly become subsumed into each other. The church is a heavenly people, Israel is an earthly people.

From you first statement i can see that you have not studied much history. Zionism had been around a long long time. You as all Dispensationalists say the church and Israel do not supposedly become subsumed into each other. Scripture as i stated earlier says the exact opposite. Lets look at it again shall we? All in Christ have inherited the promises that God made to Abraham." Beautiful isn't it? And in Romans 11 where Paul describes believing Gentiles as becoming part of Israel and unbelieving Jews (are these the Jews you speak of?) are cast out...awesome isn't it? You got any scripture that denies that?

 

[Grappler]

Scriptures please

Uh....Matthew 24:29...

 

[farouk]

From you first statement i can see that you have not studied much history. Zionism had been around a long long time. You as all Dispensationalists say the church and Israel do not supposedly become subsumed into each other. Scripture as i stated earlier says the exact opposite. Lets look at it again shall we? All in Christ have inherited the promises that God made to Abraham." Beautiful isn't it? And in Romans 11 where Paul describes believing Gentiles as becoming part of Israel and unbelieving Jews (are these the Jews you speak of?) are cast out...awesome isn't it? You got any scripture that denies that?

G:

Sorry, which verse were you referring to in Romans 11? I was just looking at the chapter.

(Let me give you some friendly advice as well; I'm not personally offended, but you need to stop making rather bold claims about what other people, especially ones you don't know, have or haven't supposedly read or studied. Let's instead just keep this discussion straightforward.)

 

[Agape]

Uh....Matthew 24:29...

LOL
Thanks for the fun but I mean scriptures to support what I've quoted (#29). Remember I asked you what "those days" was referring to and now I am asking you to support your answer with scriptures.

 

[Grappler]

G:

Sorry, which verse were you referring to in Romans 11? I was just looking at the chapter.

(Let me give you some friendly advice as well; I'm not personally offended, but you need to stop making rather bold claims about what other people, especially ones you don't know, have or haven't supposedly read or studied. Let's instead just keep this discussion straightforward.)

Romans 11:17-19 specificallly talks about Gentiles being "grafted" in.

 

[Grappler]

LOL
Thanks for the fun but I mean scriptures to support what I've quoted (#29). Remember I asked you what "those days" was referring to and now I am asking you to support your answer with scriptures.

LOL...i don't know why i am LOL but anyways lets all LOL. The scripture that i gave you was and still is Matthew 24:29-31. Please read it and you will notice the little ol' word AFTER...not before, not pre, but AFTER you know like post.

 

[farouk]

Romans 11:17-19 specificallly talks about Gentiles being "grafted" in.

G: Ty for the ref. Certainly blessing is something which is grafted into. As Edward points out, Ephesians 2 refers to the uncircumcision who were strangers to the commonwealth of Israel. When people are converted to Christ, it is not specifically to Israel that they are converted to, or grafted into.

 

[Agape]

Ahh and there is the crux of the problem. You have been misled by the Zionists to believe that there is some kind of difference between the church and Israel but when we read scripture we see something entirely different.

I was not misled by zionists and don't understand why ya keep saying that.
Now, let us see what our Lord said before concluding that it is "entirely different".
1) Matthew 16:18 "And I also say to you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build My church, and the gates of Hades shall not prevail against it."

This does not say:
"I will add to my church Israel"
"I will create a second church"

but
I will build my church, οἰκοδομήσω, future indicative active

2) Go here http://biblesuite.com/greek/strongs_1577.htm and see Acts 7:38. ekklésia is used in relation to Israel, in the sense of a congregation called out of Egypt, not as part of "the body of Christ". Abraham was a saint of God not a member of the body of Christ.

If you can find just one occurrence where ekklésia is used to speak of Israel as a part of "the body of Christ", please share. I'll give ya a gift

 

[reba]

Try , try and then try again to disagree nicely :crazy moderator


The above message is not necessarily aimed at the last poster.... It is across the board and thank you to those who are pleasant

 

[Agape]

LOL...i don't know why i am LOL but anyways lets all LOL. The scripture that i gave you was and still is Matthew 24:29-31. Please read it and you will notice the little ol' word AFTER...not before, not pre, but AFTER you know like post.

That can be resolved. ;)
I want us to focus on "those days" in verse 29 before we move on to vs. 30-31.
I'm logging off soon, so maybe we'll talk about it tomorrow or whenever we meet again on this thread.
God bless!

 

[Grappler]

That can be resolved. ;)
I want us to focus on "those days" in verse 29 before we move on to vs. 30-31.
I'm logging off soon, so maybe we'll talk about it tomorrow or whenever we meet again on this thread.
God bless!

Well i am all ears...and hey God bless you too!

 

[Grappler]

I was not misled by zionists and don't understand why ya keep saying that.
Now, let us see what our Lord said before concluding that it is "entirely different".
1) Matthew 16:18 "And I also say to you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build My church, and the gates of Hades shall not prevail against it."

This does not say:
"I will add to my church Israel"
"I will create a second church"

but
I will build my church, οἰκοδομήσω, future indicative active

2) Go here http://biblesuite.com/greek/strongs_1577.htm and see Acts 7:38. ekklésia is used in relation to Israel, in the sense of a congregation called out of Egypt, not as part of "the body of Christ". Abraham was a saint of God not a member of the body of Christ.

If you can find just one occurrence where ekklésia is used to speak of Israel as a part of "the body of Christ", please share. I'll give ya a gift

You said that Abraham was a saint of God not a member of the body of Christ. That sounds all nice but the only problem with that is you have no scripture to back it up. Paul who was a Jew made it quite clear that all in Christ have inherited the promises made to Abraham. I am in Christ so i have inherited the same promises that God made to Abraham...no distinction. Romans 11 teaches us that believing Gentiles are grafted into the promises. What happens to unbelieving Jews? They are cast out. Jesus even told the unbelieving Pharisees who were Jews that they were children of the devil. Paul told us there is no longer Jew or Greek in the sight of God. So please let us drop this nonsense about body of Christ here and Abraham the saint there...You are either a child of God or not.