The Preterist Position - I have a Question

[nonbelieverforums]

Will anyone be taking this question on ??

Your question is valid. I have not really studied "end times" stuff very much, so, as I have already indicated, I do not have an immediate answer to the text you provided. I hope to shortly. Perhaps you can address the question that I have already raised in respect to this passage: Are you committed to a reading of this passage that requires us to understand that the prophecy necessarily involves a literal drying up of the Euphrates River?

It seems from your post that you seem to think that unless the Euphrates river has dried up in past, then the prophecy must be about some future event. That kind of argument would not mesh with the way Scripture is written. Often, apocalyptic metaphor is used - overly dramatic "end of the world" language used with the intent of characterizing events that do not involve the end of the world.

So while I do not have an opinion on what the text is about, I would point out that a claim that it has already been fulfilled cannot necessarily be countered by the question "well, when was the Euphrates dried up?". If the explanation of the "preterist" or the "semi-preterist" involves an appeal to apocalyptic metaphor, that kind of response would not work.

I would you like to know if the event happened in the first century as an acutal event. If so how? If it is used as a metaphor please explain..

 

[nonbelieverforums]

QUESTION 2

I will ask my second question and get this one rolling as well:

This relates to Ezekiel 38 and the many christians who believe we are very close to seeing this conflict arrise with the current relationship between Russia/Iran/China and the conflicts Israel.

As I ask this question today, yesterday (June 18, 2009) Mahmoud Ahmadinejad met with Russian President Dmitry Medvedev and leaders of the Shanghai Cooperation Organization (SCO) to continue building a political and "military alliance" between Russia, China, Iran and Islamic countries in Central Asia. Currently, Iran has “observer†status in the SCO, but has requested full member status. Please go to http://www.sectsco.org/EN/ for more information on the SCO.

Many Christians who study prophecy see the SCO alliance as the biblical alliance foretold in Ezekiel 38-39 that will come against Israel and seek to destroy the Jewish people in what the Bible calls the “last days†of history.

If this conflict already happened in the first century how so? What countries were inolved? But most importantly how were they united and by who? What method was used to reunite so many?

One of the things I do in my Ministry is show people the bible is true as many ways as possible. I have videos of the results archaeological findings for example, things like Noah's Ark discovered, proof of the Red Sea crossing etc..

We know that the armies were defeated and in Ezekiel 39:12-16 it takes/took 7 Months to burry the dead.

A great percentage of the bible has been proven time and time again from archaeological findings and digs. With this many defeated and burried where are the graves of these armys and why haven't they been found?

 

[Sinthesis]

Re: QUESTION 1

The River Euphrates Rev: 16:12

An army of 200 million led by "the kings from the east" will march across Asia toward Israel during the Tribulation, Revelation 16:12 indicates that this army will be held up at the Euphrates River until its water is suddenly dried up, enabling them to cross and proceed to the Valley of Armageddon.

Throughout history the Euphrates River has been an impenetrable military barrier between East and West. However, the government of Turkey recently constructed the huge Ataturk Dam that can now dam up the waters of the Euphrates for the first time in history.

If the event already occured,, how was the Euphrates River dried ? Clearly it was not god, as why would he dry the river to allow an attack on Israel.

The modern day would suggest the Atatruk Dam:

[/i][/b]

Rev 16:1 And I heard a great voice out of the temple saying to the seven angels, Go your ways, and pour out the vials of the wrath of God upon the earth.

Rev 16:12 And the sixth angel poured out his vial upon the great river Euphrates; and the water thereof was dried up, that the way of the kings of the east might be prepared.

Read your Bible Clearly it WAS God, and God does not need a Dam to dry a river (maybe a vial or a staff). However, your assertion that "the Euphrates River has been an impenetrable military barrier between East and West" is absolutely false. Even the Dardanelles weren't an impenetrable military barrier before Christ's time. :o

Remember, Revelation describes God's wrath upon apostate Israel. God set the entire world against apostate Israel, and it IS most peculiar that the estimates for the global population in the 1st century hover around 200million.

 

[Sinthesis]

Re: QUESTION 2

I will ask my second question and get this one rolling as well:

This relates to Ezekiel 38 and the many christians who believe we are very close to seeing this conflict arrise with the current relationship between Russia/Iran/China and the conflicts Israel.

As I ask this question today, yesterday (June 18, 2009) Mahmoud Ahmadinejad met with Russian President Dmitry Medvedev and leaders of the Shanghai Cooperation Organization (SCO) to continue building a political and "military alliance" between Russia, China, Iran and Islamic countries in Central Asia.

Eze 38:15 And thou shalt come from thy place out of the north parts, thou, and many people with thee, all of them riding upon horses, a great company, and a mighty army:

Saddle-Up Mahmoud! :crazy

 

[Vic C.]

One issue with the Euphrates is, it is very shallow. Boats do not navigate it. It's primary function is as a water supply. A dam on the Euphrates was completed in the early 70s.

 

[nonbelieverforums]

You have me confused then. If it was an act of god why would he dry the waters so Israel could be attacked? or are you saying the waters were shallow and they crossed. Should we not be using dried up in the "Literal Sense Of The Word"

The sixth angel poured out his bowl on the great river, the Euphrates; and its water was dried up, so that the way would be prepared for the kings from the east. Rev. 16:12

Saddle-Up Mahmoud!

Sinthesis I don't appreciate your one liner comedy. You have done this a couple of times now in various posts and I find it offensive. The confict between Israel and Iran is not funny nor should it be made fun of. If you are unable to debate matters of faith without cracking jokes I would ask that you please not respond to my questions or posts. I am very sensitive about what I see happening in Iran and Israel like many other Christians. If you find it funny keep it to yourself.

 

[Vic C.]

You have me confused then. If it was an act of god why would he dry the waters so Israel could be attacked? or are you saying the waters were shallow and they crossed. Should we not be using dried up in the "Literal Sense Of The Word"

The sixth angel poured out his bowl on the great river, the Euphrates; and its water was dried up, so that the way would be prepared for the kings from the east. Rev. 16:12

Who, me? I didn't mentioned an act of God (<--- remember, capital G). My point was 1- it wouldn't take much to stop the flow of the river and 2- there is already a dam in place.

 

[parousia70]

The sixth angel poured out his bowl on the great river, the Euphrates; and its water was dried up, so that the way would be prepared for the kings from the east. Rev. 16:12

Should we not be using dried up in the "Literal Sense Of The Word"

Where is the requirement to do so?
Why can't the drying up of the Euphrates simply signify its being crossed with ease and speed?
This did happen in history after all.

Not only did the Roman legions attack from the frontier of the Euphrates, but auxiliary kings whose dominions lay in that region, such as Antiochus of Commagene and Sohemus of Sophene, most properly designated ‘kings from the east,’ followed the eagles of Rome to the siege of Jerusalem, "as lightning travels from the east to the west"

How bout that... historical record for all you folks who clamor for extra biblical evidence!
I realize it is a deviation for me to cite history to prove scripture but since so many of you apparently require we appeal to such extra biblical authority to prove our case, I figured I'd play along (this time)

 

[Osgiliath]

Originally posted by Sinthesis
"Remember, Revelation describes God's wrath upon apostate Israel. God set the entire world against apostate Israel"

I'll ask this question again (maybe I'll get an answer this time). If Revelation only describes God's wrath upon apostate Israel, and the judgment and parousia was a localized event focusing on Jerusalem and the Temple, what would seven churches in Asia hundreds of miles away have to worry about? Why are these distant churches even addressed in Revelation if Revelation is only describing God's wrath upon apostate Israel? What is the significance of delivering the church of Philadelphia from judgment if that judgment occurs hundreds of miles away beyond the borders of that city?

 

[Vic C.]

Originally posted by Sinthesis
"Remember, Revelation describes God's wrath upon apostate Israel. God set the entire world against apostate Israel"

I'll ask this question again (maybe I'll get an answer this time). If Revelation only describes God's wrath upon apostate Israel, and the judgment and parousia was a localized event focusing on Jerusalem and the Temple, what would seven churches in Asia hundreds of miles away have to worry about? Why are these distant churches even addressed in Revelation if Revelation is only describing God's wrath upon apostate Israel? What is the significance of delivering the church of Philadelphia from judgment if that judgment occurs hundreds of miles away beyond the borders of that city?

I think that is a valid question, but did I miss something? Who said they believe it was a localized event that just centered on Jerusalem?

 

[Osgiliath]

Originally posted by Vic C
I think that is a valid question, but did I miss something? Who said they believe it was a localized event that just centered on Jerusalem?

Are you being facetious Mr. Vic? . If not, take a quick browse through the threads, with a particular focus on the 70 AD folks. I have all of these claims cut and pasted in case someone conveniently forgets about something they posted a while back concerning this “localized†judgment on Jerusalem and the Temple. :D

 

[parousia70]

I'll ask this question again (maybe I'll get an answer this time). If Revelation only describes God's wrath upon apostate Israel, and the judgment and parousia was a localized event focusing on Jerusalem and the Temple, what would seven churches in Asia hundreds of miles away have to worry about?

Seems to me you have the same problem with your view Os., for if Revelation describes a judgment that was to take place thousands of years after the 1st century, what would seven 1st century Churches have to worry about?

From the preterist perspective, we understand that the 1st century persecution of Christians by the Jews went well beyond the walls of Jerusalem, and we also understand that the Roman Seige of Jersulam and Crackdown on the Jews went well beyond the walls of the City, indeed into and through out Asia Minor, but, As I've cited before, the Historical evidence ,while interesting, is only ancillary to the scriptural record of the Promises of Christ to Give rest to the 1st century faithful from their contemporary persecution and repay their 1st century persecuters via His Parousia.

When we start to look for loopholes - ways for Christ to get out of fulfilling His promises made to those real people - We make the foundation of our faith crumble beneath us.

We have so many scriptural examples of Promise > Fulfillment, that we rest our faith on the fact that if Christ makes a promise, we can be 100% confident that he is keeps it, whether or not scripture records it's fulfillment for us.

Do you believe Christ rose from the Dead?
there is no historical proof of it happening (outside of scripture)

Do you believe it because of the scriptural record of His promise to do so, or because of the scriptural record of the eyewitnesses of His risin Body?

Both?
Is the Promise of Christ alone EVER enough for us, or do we need the eyewitness account of the fulfillment to confirm?

I say the promise alone ought be enough.

Again, If Christ promised real air breathing, blood pumping Human beings that certain events would befall them in their day, and those people and their day have passed away millennia ago, We as Christians are bound by the tenants of our faith to affirm the fulfillment of those promises, even (and especially) in the absense of any Historical corroborating evidence.

 

[Vic C.]

Originally posted by Vic C
I think that is a valid question, but did I miss something? Who said they believe it was a localized event that just centered on Jerusalem?

Are you being facetious Mr. Vic? . If not, take a quick browse through the threads, with a particular focus on the 70 AD folks. I have all of these claims cut and pasted in case someone conveniently forgets about something they posted a while back concerning this “localized†judgment on Jerusalem and the Temple. :D

No, I was serious. See, no emoticons in my previous post. That is why I asked if I missed something.

 

[Matthew24:34]

I'll ask this question again (maybe I'll get an answer this time). If Revelation only describes God's wrath upon apostate Israel, and the judgment and parousia was a localized event focusing on Jerusalem and the Temple, what would seven churches in Asia hundreds of miles away have to worry about?

Seems to me you have the same problem with your view Os., for if Revelation describes a judgment that was to take place thousands of years after the 1st century, what would seven 1st century Churches have to worry about?

From the preterist perspective, we understand that the 1st century persecution of Christians by the Jews went well beyond the walls of Jerusalem, and we also understand that the Roman Seige of Jersulam and Crackdown on the Jews went well beyond the walls of the City, indeed into and through out Asia Minor, but, As I've cited before, the Historical evidence ,while interesting, is only ancillary to the scriptural record of the Promises of Christ to Give rest to the 1st century faithful from their contemporary persecution and repay their 1st century persecuters via His Parousia.

When we start to look for loopholes - ways for Christ to get out of fulfilling His promises made to those real people - We make the foundation of our faith crumble beneath us.

We have so many scriptural examples of Promise > Fulfillment, that we rest our faith on the fact that if Christ makes a promise, we can be 100% confident that he is keeps it, whether or not scripture records it's fulfillment for us.

Do you believe Christ rose from the Dead?
there is no historical proof of it happening (outside of scripture)

Do you believe it because of the scriptural record of His promise to do so, or because of the scriptural record of the eyewitnesses of His risin Body?

Both?
Is the Promise of Christ alone EVER enough for us, or do we need the eyewitness account of the fulfillment to confirm?

I say the promise alone ought be enough.

Again, If Christ promised real air breathing, blood pumping Human beings that certain events would befall them in their day, and those people and their day have passed away millennia ago, We as Christians are bound by the tenants of our faith to affirm the fulfillment of those promises, even (and especially) in the absense of any Historical corroborating evidence.

3 :bounce

 

[Ed the Ned]

Seems to me you have the same problem with your view Os., for if Revelation describes a judgment that was to take place thousands of years after the 1st century, what would seven 1st century Churches have to worry about?

I am not trying to but in but it seems that the preterist position looks at the Bible as a historical document only. It is the living word of God and If it is the living word of God then it was a cause set in motion through the early churches so that we can prepare ourselves for his second coming.
Reading 2 Peter chapter 3 alone:
2Pe 3:1 This is now the second letter that I am writing to you, beloved. In both of them I am stirring up your sincere mind by way of reminder,
2Pe 3:2 that you should remember the predictions of the holy prophets and the commandment of the Lord and Savior through your apostles,
2Pe 3:3 knowing this first of all, that scoffers will come in the last days with scoffing, following their own sinful desires.
2Pe 3:4 They will say, "Where is the promise of his coming? For ever since the fathers fell asleep, all things are continuing as they were from the beginning of creation."
2Pe 3:5 For they deliberately overlook this fact, that the heavens existed long ago, and the earth was formed out of water and through water by the word of God,
2Pe 3:6 and that by means of these the world that then existed was deluged with water and perished.
2Pe 3:7 But by the same word the heavens and earth that now exist are stored up for fire, being kept until the day of judgment and destruction of the ungodly.
2Pe 3:8 But do not overlook this one fact, beloved, that with the Lord one day is as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.
2Pe 3:9 The Lord is not slow to fulfill his promise as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing that any should perish, but that all should reach repentance.
2Pe 3:10 But the day of the Lord will come like a thief, and then the heavens will pass away with a roar, and the heavenly bodies will be burned up and dissolved, and the earth and the works that are done on it will be exposed.
2Pe 3:11 Since all these things are thus to be dissolved, what sort of people ought you to be in lives of holiness and godliness,
2Pe 3:12 waiting for and hastening the coming of the day of God, because of which the heavens will be set on fire and dissolved, and the heavenly bodies will melt as they burn!
2Pe 3:13 But according to his promise we are waiting for new heavens and a new earth in which righteousness dwells.
2Pe 3:14 Therefore, beloved, since you are waiting for these, be diligent to be found by him without spot or blemish, and at peace.
2Pe 3:15 And count the patience of our Lord as salvation, just as our beloved brother Paul also wrote to you according to the wisdom given him,
2Pe 3:16 as he does in all his letters when he speaks in them of these matters. There are some things in them that are hard to understand, which the ignorant and unstable twist to their own destruction, as they do the other Scriptures.
2Pe 3:17 You therefore, beloved, knowing this beforehand, take care that you are not carried away with the error of lawless people and lose your own stability.
2Pe 3:18 But grow in the grace and knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. To him be the glory both now and to the day of eternity. Amen.

I cannot read a passage in the bible like this and believe that our Lord Jesus Christ has returned.

 

[sheshisown]

Hello gents~

Parousia wrote;

Seems to me you have the same problem with your view Os., for if Revelation describes a judgment that was to take place thousands of years after the 1st century, what would seven 1st century Churches have to worry about?

I realise you are speaking with Osgiliath~ however I would like to offer an answer on that one, in referrance to the Futurists View. You all seem to be sharing in the discussion so I expect it will be okay. Besides, Osgiliath certainly can answer as well. :D

The reason these particular seven churches in Asia were chosen by Christ from the Futurist View, is because they are typical churches. The name Asia is not referring to the continent of Asia, or even the whole of Asia minor, but only the western end of it. These were not the only churches in this area either, there were three other churches: Colosse, Col. 1:2; Hierapolis, Col. 4:13; and Troas, Acts 20:6,7. :yes

The conclusion drawn from this historical evidence is that these seven churches are complete representative or typical of churches then, throughout history, and now. Also each church is chosen for certain characteristics typical of the character of 'the church' from the end of the 1st century to the time of Christ's return for His church.

The reason the judgement spoken of by Christ not only mattered to the churches in John's day, as well as to the churches throughout history, and those in the current day is because all believed... as Futurists still do... that Christ's return was emminent. AT ANY MOMENT. Obviously, Christ warned those He knew would require warning. They took Him at His word, and expected to see the day come when He would Judge the earth. Of course, He may wait until I am dead, I'm 56, but He may not.

Those churches in John's day had no idea that the body of Christ would exist in this state~ awaiting the Coming of Christ today. Any more than the churches trusting in the emminent Return of Jesus Christ throughout the ages would.

BTW~ How long has the preterist possition been around?

Lord bless... bonnie :shades

 

[Matthew24:34]

Hello gents~

Parousia wrote;

Seems to me you have the same problem with your view Os., for if Revelation describes a judgment that was to take place thousands of years after the 1st century, what would seven 1st century Churches have to worry about?

I realise you are speaking with Osgiliath~ however I would like to offer an answer on that one, in referrance to the Futurists View. You all seem to be sharing in the discussion so I expect it will be okay. Besides, Osgiliath certainly can answer as well. :D

The reason these particular seven churches in Asia were chosen by Christ from the Futurist View, is because they are typical churches. The name Asia is not referring to the continent of Asia, or even the whole of Asia minor, but only the western end of it. These were not the only churches in this area either, there were three other churches: Colosse, Col. 1:2; Hierapolis, Col. 4:13; and Troas, Acts 20:6,7. :yes

The conclusion drawn from this historical evidence is that these seven churches are complete representative or typical of churches then, throughout history, and now. Also each church is chosen for certain characteristics typical of the character of 'the church' from the end of the 1st century to the time of Christ's return for His church.

The reason the judgement spoken of by Christ not only mattered to the churches in John's day, as well as to the churches throughout history, and those in the current day is because all believed... as Futurists still do... that Christ's return was emminent. AT ANY MOMENT. Obviously, Christ warned those He knew would require warning. They took Him at His word, and expected to see the day come when He would Judge the earth. Of course, He may wait until I am dead, I'm 55, but He may not.

Those churches in John's day had no idea that the body of Christ would exist in this state~ awaiting the Coming of Christ today. Any more than the churches trusting in the emminent Return of Jesus Christ throughout the ages would.

BTW~ How long has the preterist possition been around?

Lord bless... bonnie :shades

Greetings, sheshisown: I must draw your attention back to the very first verses and ending verses of the Revelation. John was shown those things which were to "shortly" take place--the time was then "near" (Rev. 1:1, 3; 22:6, 10). Immediately after the statement "the time is near" John greets those very churches of his day--"John, to the seven churches which ARE in ASIA" (1:4). He refers to himself as their brother and their companion in THE tribulation (vs. 9). John wrote down what he saw and sent the message to those very seven churches which "ARE in Asia: to EPHESUS, to SMYRNA, to PERGAMOS, to THYATIRA, to SARDIS, to PHILADELPHIA, and to LAODICEA" (vss. 10-11). Notice that John was IN THE SPIRIT" at the time. Jesus had specific messages to each of those very churches of that generation. Simply because there may be similar characteristics exhibited by churches throughout the ages, does not make those churches relevant to the context of Revelation 2 and 3!

The Son of Man told John to write the things he had seen, the things that then were and the things which were ABOUT TO take place after this. I say ABOUT TO based upon the much neglected Greek term, mello. It is found in many eschatological contexts, but the translators, being themselves futurists, could not see how it could mean exactly what it means, so they simply translated it with the future tense and the true force of it was lost. That same term is found in Revelation 3:10. Again, the translators, being futurists, ignored its force. Acknowledging the term mello, however, renders the verse ""I will also keep you from the hour of trial which is ABOUT TO come upon the whole world." Mello is also found in 3:2. Those of the Church at Sardis was to "be watchful," and they were to strengthen the things which remain, that are ABOUT TO die." To those of that very church of Laodicea Jesus predicted that He was ABOUT TO (mello) vomit them out of His mouth (3:16).

In Chapter 4 JOHN (not the Church) was told to "Come up here." While in the Spirit John was shown the things which were to "shortly" take place! The remainder of the Book of Revelation deals with those very things which were to "shortly" take place! The time for their fulfillment was "near."

John was to write what was in the past, what then was, and that which was about to come! The letters to the churches involved the things that then were. The later things in the Revelation deal with those things which were ABOUT TO come!

The Preterist position has been around at least since Jesus said "THIS generation will by no means pass away till ALL these things take place!"

Jesus never said that His return was always in a state of imminency--He said to those of John's day, "Behold, I am coming SOON!"

Sincerely, Preterist

 

[Matthew24:34]

Seems to me you have the same problem with your view Os., for if Revelation describes a judgment that was to take place thousands of years after the 1st century, what would seven 1st century Churches have to worry about?

I am not trying to but in but it seems that the preterist position looks at the Bible as a historical document only. It is the living word of God and If it is the living word of God then it was a cause set in motion through the early churches so that we can prepare ourselves for his second coming.
Reading 2 Peter chapter 3 alone:
2Pe 3:1 This is now the second letter that I am writing to you, beloved. In both of them I am stirring up your sincere mind by way of reminder,
2Pe 3:2 that you should remember the predictions of the holy prophets and the commandment of the Lord and Savior through your apostles,
2Pe 3:3 knowing this first of all, that scoffers will come in the last days with scoffing, following their own sinful desires.
2Pe 3:4 They will say, "Where is the promise of his coming? For ever since the fathers fell asleep, all things are continuing as they were from the beginning of creation."
2Pe 3:5 For they deliberately overlook this fact, that the heavens existed long ago, and the earth was formed out of water and through water by the word of God,
2Pe 3:6 and that by means of these the world that then existed was deluged with water and perished.
2Pe 3:7 But by the same word the heavens and earth that now exist are stored up for fire, being kept until the day of judgment and destruction of the ungodly.
2Pe 3:8 But do not overlook this one fact, beloved, that with the Lord one day is as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.
2Pe 3:9 The Lord is not slow to fulfill his promise as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing that any should perish, but that all should reach repentance.
2Pe 3:10 But the day of the Lord will come like a thief, and then the heavens will pass away with a roar, and the heavenly bodies will be burned up and dissolved, and the earth and the works that are done on it will be exposed.
2Pe 3:11 Since all these things are thus to be dissolved, what sort of people ought you to be in lives of holiness and godliness,
2Pe 3:12 waiting for and hastening the coming of the day of God, because of which the heavens will be set on fire and dissolved, and the heavenly bodies will melt as they burn!
2Pe 3:13 But according to his promise we are waiting for new heavens and a new earth in which righteousness dwells.
2Pe 3:14 Therefore, beloved, since you are waiting for these, be diligent to be found by him without spot or blemish, and at peace.
2Pe 3:15 And count the patience of our Lord as salvation, just as our beloved brother Paul also wrote to you according to the wisdom given him,
2Pe 3:16 as he does in all his letters when he speaks in them of these matters. There are some things in them that are hard to understand, which the ignorant and unstable twist to their own destruction, as they do the other Scriptures.
2Pe 3:17 You therefore, beloved, knowing this beforehand, take care that you are not carried away with the error of lawless people and lose your own stability.
2Pe 3:18 But grow in the grace and knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. To him be the glory both now and to the day of eternity. Amen.

I cannot read a passage in the bible like this and believe that our Lord Jesus Christ has returned.

Greetings, Ed the Ned: What translation are you using? It is extremely inaccurate in verses 10 and 12. The word that is wrongly translated "heavenly bodies" (UGH) is the Greek word stoicheia (stoicheion--singular). It has nothing to do with heavenly bodies! Following are ALL the uses of that same Greek term in the NT:

Galatians 4:3: "Even so, when we were children, were in bondage under the ELEMENTS (stoicheia) of the world. But when the fullness of the time had come, God sent forth His Son, born of a woman, born under the law, to redeem those who were under the law, that we might receive the adoption as sons." Paul is speaking here of freedom from the "elements" of the world that hold the unbeliever in bondage--Christ brings freedom from those "elements" There are NO physical "heavenly bodies" in mind here!

Galatians 4:9: "But now, after you have known God, or rather are known by God, how is it that you turn again to the weak and beggarly ELEMENTS (stoicheia), to which you desire again to be in bondage?" Paul is questioning the Galatians as to their position in Christ. Before they knew God, they served those "which by nature are not gods" (vs. 8). Paul is concerned by their turning again to observing "days and months and seasons and years" that he may have labored among them in vain (vs. 10). Why would someone who had come to be known by God return to those things that never lead to the true God? Again, there is absolutely nothing here concerning "heavenly bodies."

Colossians 2:8: "Beware lest anyone cheat you through philosophy and empty deceit, according to the traditions of men, according to the PRINCIPLES (stoicheia) of the world, and not according to Christ." Paul is exhorting the Colossians to not return to the philosophies of the world and the traditions of men--in other words, the things that could never build them up in Christ and establish them in the faith. Yet, again, there is absolutely nothing regarding "heavenly bodies."

Colossians 2:20: "Therefore, if you died to Christ from the basic PRINCIPLES (stoicheia) of the world, why, as though living in the world, do you subject yourself to regulations?" The Colossians had slipped back into certain aspects of legalism by placing themselves again under those things that never bring "the increase that is from God" (vs. 19). They were again under the bondage to the "things which perish with the using"--things which were "according to the commandments and doctrines of men" (i. e. stoicheia)! There is absolutely nothing in this verse concerning "heavenly bodies."

Hebrews 5:12: "For though by this time you ought to be teachers, you need someone to teach you again the first PRINCIPLES (stoicheia) of the oracles of God; and you have come to need milk and not solid food." The writer of Hebrews is admonishing those who have been saved long enough to be themselves teachers to others but have remained immature in the faith. They are still in need of relearning the fundamentals of the faith! Once again, there is absolutely nothing here concerning "heavenly bodies."

2 Peter 3:10 and 12 are the only other uses of the term "stoicheia" in the NT. In none of these verses is there any reference to "heavenly bodies." The translators of the Bible version you are using obviously read their ideas into the text and have perverted it--whether knowingly or unknowingly. I am not a Greek scholar, although I have studied Greek formally and privately for many years. I do not claim to be one. But this is an obvious and serious mistranslation of a Greek term that has led to the very unfortunate misunderstanding of 2 Peter 3.

Peter makes a clear distinction between the heavens and earth which then were (i. e. the physical heavens and earth) and the "heavens and earth" (nonphysical) that were then being preserved and were to be dissolved. This is an extensive study and cannot be dealt with in this one post. The heavens and earth that were to be burned up were those stoicheia found in the OT principles of Judaism which were destroyed in A. D. 70 with the destruction of that which was necessary for their continuation--the Temple!

Sincerely, Preterist

 

[parousia70]

2Pe 3:10 But the day of the Lord will come like a thief,

I cannot read a passage in the bible like this and believe that our Lord Jesus Christ has returned.

Hya Ed, thanks for joining the discussion!

Is this the same thief's coming Christ PLAINLY applies to first century people here:
If you [1st century Church at Sardis] do not watch, I will come to you [1st century Church at Sardis]as a thief and you [1st Century Church at Sardis] will not know what hour I will come upon you [1st Century Church at Sardis](Rev 3:3 NKJ)

I cannot read a passage in the Bible like that and believe Christ failed to fulfill that promise He made to those people.

 

[parousia70]

Hello gents~

Parousia wrote;

Seems to me you have the same problem with your view Os., for if Revelation describes a judgment that was to take place thousands of years after the 1st century, what would seven 1st century Churches have to worry about?

I realise you are speaking with Osgiliath~ however I would like to offer an answer on that one, in referrance to the Futurists View. You all seem to be sharing in the discussion so I expect it will be okay. Besides, Osgiliath certainly can answer as well. :D

The reason these particular seven churches in Asia were chosen by Christ from the Futurist View, is because they are typical churches. The name Asia is not referring to the continent of Asia, or even the whole of Asia minor, but only the western end of it. These were not the only churches in this area either, there were three other churches: Colosse, Col. 1:2; Hierapolis, Col. 4:13; and Troas, Acts 20:6,7. :yes

The conclusion drawn from this historical evidence is that these seven churches are complete representative or typical of churches then, throughout history, and now.

Hi Bonnie, You are welcome to reply to any of my posts at any time you wish!

Isn't the Whole of Scripture like that?
For example, Doesn't The Flood Narrative of Genesis contain representative examples of Believers and unbelievers throughout history? Those who are found worthy and those who are not?

Doesn't Sodom & Gomorrah contain the same representations applicable to all peoples of all times?

What about Abraham, Issac & Jacob?

Jonah & the Fish?

Moses and the Exodus?

Aren't these narratives all for our benefit as examples unto us and unto all peoples throughout all times?

What makes the 7 Churches any different for you??

The reason the judgement spoken of by Christ not only mattered to the churches in John's day, as well as to the churches throughout history, and those in the current day is because all believed... as Futurists still do... that Christ's return was emminent. AT ANY MOMENT.

Wouldn't you then, as a futurist, have to assert that every generation prior to ours who believed Christ's return was IMMINENT, AT ANY MOMENT, have now been proven WRONG for believing such?

There can be only 1 end time generation, and scripture teaches plainly that Christ's return was to take place "at an appointed time", not that it could have happened "at any time".

Clearly, in your view, a believer who lived in the 1500's who believed Christ's return was going to happen in his lifetime was WRONG to believe such, yes?

Obviously, Christ warned those He knew would require warning. They took Him at His word, and expected to see the day come when He would Judge the earth.

Yet you're view necessitates that:
1) Christ misled those 1st century Churches into a false expectation of His Imminent return TO THEM.
2) Those first century people were wrong in their expectation of same.

BTW~ How long has the preterist possition been around?

It is as Matt 24:34 said
Christ and the apostles all believed and taught a first century parousia.
A fact you seem to be in agreement with.