The Preterist Position - I have a Question

[Vic C.]

Please remember to make a reference to your Bible translation.

viewtopic.php?f=17&t=36317

Thanks

 

[Osgiliath]

Don't be fooled by the word games of full-preterists. When the prophets said that something was "near", or "at hand", did they mean that it would inevitably occur within a few years? Or are they expressions which refer to imminency, rather than immediacy? Check these out:

Zephaniah 1:14 "The great day of the Lord is near, it is near, and hasteth greatly, even the voice of the day of the Lord: the mighty men shall cry there bitterly."

Joel 2:1 "Blow ye a trumpet in Zion, and sound an alarm in my holy mountain; let all the inhabitants of the land tremble: for the day of the Lord cometh, it is nigh at hand."

Joel 1:15 "Alas for the day! for the day of the Lord is at hand, and as a destruction from the Almighty shall it come."

Ezekiel 30:3 "For the day is near, even the day of the Lord is near, a cloudy day; it shall be the time of the heathen."

Ezekiel 36:8 "But ye, O mountains of Israel, ye shall shoot forth your branches, and yield your fruit to my people of Israel; for they are at hand to come."

Haggai 2:6 "For thus saith the Lord of Hosts; Yet once, it is a little while, and I will shake the heavens, and the earth, and the sea, and the dry land; and I will shake all nations, and the Desire of all nations shall come: and I will fill this house with glory, saith the Lord of Hosts."

Isaiah 13:6 "Howl ye; for the day of the Lord is at hand; it shall come as a destruction from the Almighty."

Isaiah 10:25 "For yet a very little while, and the indignation shall cease, and my anger in their destruction."

Isaiah 56:1 "Thus saith the Lord, keep ye judgment, and do justice: for my salvation is near to come, and my righteousness to be revealed."

Jeremiah 51:33 "For thus saith the Lord of Hosts, the God of Israel; The daughter of Babylon is like threshing-floor, and it is time to thresh her: yet a little while, and the time of her harvest shall come."

Of course, they will conveniently twist these passages as well, because it does not fit into their scheme. Notice how they are so adamant about the meaning of words and phrases such as "this generation", "shortly", and "near", yet ironically in their eyes; the Day of The Lord does NOT mean the Day of The Lord; grave does NOT mean grave; body does NOT mean body; air or atmosphere does NOT mean air or atmosphere; final judgment does NOT mean final judgment; last trumpet does NOT mean last trumpet; and last day does NOT mean last day; etc. So much for consistency . They allegorize anything that will not fit into the context of their presupposition if the literal doesn't quite work, and vice versa. Pay attention to this process, it's actually quite amusing. You gotta hand it to them for creativity and imagination; but don't be conned.

 

[sheshisown]

Hello gents~

Osgiliath~

I SO appreciate and recieve your warning and instruction as my brother in Christ, and as a fellow defender of Futurists hope. :D Your words throughout the forums here are refreshing and strengthening to me. I thank God for your wisdom and the fellowship we share in the end times faith! :yes

It has been a very dry season for me, much of my witness about end times has been defending defending defending... and I am afraid very weakly and easily turned aside from the direct path yours takes. It is a comfort to have those come alongside who have such a well "versed" education in this defense, and especially in the education of the Spirit of grace, exhibiting patience and love. :shades

I guess what I appreciate best, is the ability that confidence in your hope has given you to never take your SELF too seriously, but to always take the word very seriously. I so desire that balance! God grant it to me~ by His gracious hand as I diligently seek Him. :heart

From now on~ I will be searching for this defining difference;

When the prophets said that something was "near", or "at hand", did they mean that it would inevitably occur within a few years? Or are they expressions which refer to imminency, rather than immediacy?

I have copied the verses you gave... and will look up each one in the original tense and language to confirm what you teach me here. Thanks for the homework brother.

In the blessed hope of resurrection... immently... bonnie :amen

 

[sheshisown]

Heya Vic~

I almost always use either NKJV or OKJV, rarely I use other versions, if and when I do, I will note it in my post.

In Him... bonnie

 

[Osgiliath]

Thanks for the kind words sheshisown ;). I don’t take myself seriously because I’m not worth being taken seriously; but the Word of God most certainly is.

 

[parousia70]

yet ironically in their eyes; the Day of The Lord does NOT mean the Day of The Lord; .

I know you did this to avoid dealing with Revelation 3:3, but it would appear that I'll have to take what I can get form you so I'll play along with this.

Since there have been several "Day of the Lord" events in scripture, what you are getting at with this?

Preterists are the ones affirming the nature of the historical "Day of the Lord" events found throughout scripture, it's futurists who are saying "The day of the lord does not mean the day of the lord".

 

[Ed the Ned]

Greetings, Ed the Ned: What translation are you using? It is extremely inaccurate in verses 10 and 12. The word that is wrongly translated "heavenly bodies" (UGH) is the Greek word stoicheia (stoicheion--singular). It has nothing to do with heavenly bodies!

Thankyou Matthew, I have looked at other translations and have noticed that The word "Elements" is the correct translation.I have been using the ESV recently, but by the looks of things I will need to be a little more careful in the future. Although that was not the purpose of my post. I was just concerned that the preterist viewpoint does not look at the Bible as being the "Living word of God". There is such a desire to prove that Christ second coming has already happened that the Word of God, the LIVING Word of GOD, is being treated as an historical document that has no purpose for the Church today. The only time I believe the Bible will become a historical document is when all prophecy is fullfilled and we are living in the place Jesus went to prepare for US. REMEMBER JESUS DID NOT KNOW THE TIME OF HIS SECOND COMING, ONLY THE FATHER DID. When did PAUL suddenly get knowledge that the time was now? I understand it that Paul did not know either and because he did not know, he warned the Churches just as our Lord Jesus Christ warned his disciples. I have not studied theology or greek or anything else. I think the Bible was written for all to understand. I cannot seem to understand, with all the sin in the world, that we are living in the righteous reign of Jesus Christ as I understand preterists believe. Maybe I don't understand your position properly but it does not seem right to me. May God bless you

 

[Matthew24:34]

Hello gents~

Osgiliath~

I SO appreciate and recieve your warning and instruction as my brother in Christ, and as a fellow defender of Futurists hope. :D Your words throughout the forums here are refreshing and strengthening to me. I thank God for your wisdom and the fellowship we share in the end times faith! :yes

It has been a very dry season for me, much of my witness about end times has been defending defending defending... and I am afraid very weakly and easily turned aside from the direct path yours takes. It is a comfort to have those come alongside who have such a well "versed" education in this defense, and especially in the education of the Spirit of grace, exhibiting patience and love. :shades

I guess what I appreciate best, is the ability that confidence in your hope has given you to never take your SELF too seriously, but to always take the word very seriously. I so desire that balance! God grant it to me~ by His gracious hand as I diligently seek Him. :heart

From now on~ I will be searching for this defining difference;

When the prophets said that something was "near", or "at hand", did they mean that it would inevitably occur within a few years? Or are they expressions which refer to imminency, rather than immediacy?

I have copied the verses you gave... and will look up each one in the original tense and language to confirm what you teach me here. Thanks for the homework brother.

In the blessed hope of resurrection... immently... bonnie :amen

Very good, sheshisown--then at least one of you will have looked up the verses and studied them in their context!

Matthew24:34

 

[Osgiliath]

Your old "context" excuse won't fly anymore Matthew. The aforementioned Scripture is already "in context" on its own. What part of "is near" do you not understand? :D Are you going to give the "Full-Preterist Challenge" a try, or are you too proud to admit you are wrong concerning Nero?

 

[Matthew24:34]

Greetings, Ed the Ned: What translation are you using? It is extremely inaccurate in verses 10 and 12. The word that is wrongly translated "heavenly bodies" (UGH) is the Greek word stoicheia (stoicheion--singular). It has nothing to do with heavenly bodies!

Thankyou Matthew, I have looked at other translations and have noticed that The word "Elements" is the correct translation.I have been using the ESV recently, but by the looks of things I will need to be a little more careful in the future. Although that was not the purpose of my post. I was just concerned that the preterist viewpoint does not look at the Bible as being the "Living word of God". There is such a desire to prove that Christ second coming has already happened that the Word of God, the LIVING Word of GOD, is being treated as an historical document that has no purpose for the Church today. The only time I believe the Bible will become a historical document is when all prophecy is fullfilled and we are living in the place Jesus went to prepare for US. REMEMBER JESUS DID NOT KNOW THE TIME OF HIS SECOND COMING, ONLY THE FATHER DID. When did PAUL suddenly get knowledge that the time was now? I understand it that Paul did not know either and because he did not know, he warned the Churches just as our Lord Jesus Christ warned his disciples. I have not studied theology or greek or anything else. I think the Bible was written for all to understand. I cannot seem to understand, with all the sin in the world, that we are living in the righteous reign of Jesus Christ as I understand preterists believe. Maybe I don't understand your position properly but it does not seem right to me. May God bless you

Respectfully, Ed the Ned, but you are looking for the same thing those first-century Pharisees sought--a physical, earthly kingdom. Jesus came to bring a kingdom which is not of this world. Also, Jesus' coming was not to do away with "sinning" but the penalty of sin. You actually do not understand what preterists teach concerning this. Not all, but many preterists believe that Jesus came to bring a heavenly kingdom--the kingdom He Himself stated was not of this world. If you read Hebrews 11, you will notice that Abraham and other OT saints also longed for a "heavenly country" and considered themselves strangers and foreigners even while living in the Promised Land.

Jesus did not know the day and the hour of His return while He lived on the earth, but He knew the generation--His generation. Why is this so often overlooked and used against preterism. Jesus clearly said, after describing His second coming: "THIS generation will by no means pass away till ALL these things take place"--to include His coming.

As for Paul--no one but the Apostle John had more insight into the mysteries of God than Paul. No one could have taught the things he taught without special insight. When he was given the teaching about the soon return of the Lord is not clear although he made mention of a man who was caught up into heaven (this was perhaps Paul himself or the Apostle John). If Paul was not given special insight, how do you account for the many other Bible truths he was given?

Furthermore, to whom did Jesus promise to go away and prepare a place? Was not Jesus addressing those very disciples right there with Him (John 14). THEY were troubled because He was leaving THEM. No other generation of believers was ever troubled in that way. Jesus sought to comfort those particular disciples because of a particular situation. He told THEM that He was going away to prepare a place for THEM and that He would come again to receive THEM unto Himself. His words were meant to comfort them first and foremost and not us. They were the firstfuits of this promise.

Just because the events of the Bible are historical does not mean they have no relevance to us. On the contrary, in the pages of the Bible we learn of God's character. We learn that the things He came to give to those disciples of His day, He can now give to all of us. As they were given resurrection bodies fitted for heaven when Christ came for THEM, so we will one day receive our resurrection bodies and join the Lord in His heavenly kingdom. Just as He was faithful in every way to them, so He will always be faithful to us! What does it matter to us if this wicked world and its sinfulness continues? Those things have nothing to do with His kingdom. That's God's business.

If we have a wrong concept of His parousia, the resurrection, and the judgment, we will not be able to accept their past fulfillment. Are you certain that your understanding of these things is biblical?

Sincerely, Preterist

 

[Sinthesis]

Don't be fooled by the word games of full-preterists. When the prophets said that something was "near", or "at hand", did they mean that it would inevitably occur within a few years? Or are they expressions which refer to imminency, rather than immediacy? Check these out:

Zephaniah 1:14 "The great day of the Lord is near, it is near, and hasteth greatly, even the voice of the day of the Lord: the mighty men shall cry there bitterly."

Joel 2:1 "Blow ye a trumpet in Zion, and sound an alarm in my holy mountain; let all the inhabitants of the land tremble: for the day of the Lord cometh, it is nigh at hand."

Joel 1:15 "Alas for the day! for the day of the Lord is at hand, and as a destruction from the Almighty shall it come."

Ezekiel 30:3 "For the day is near, even the day of the Lord is near, a cloudy day; it shall be the time of the heathen."

Ezekiel 36:8 "But ye, O mountains of Israel, ye shall shoot forth your branches, and yield your fruit to my people of Israel; for they are at hand to come."

Haggai 2:6 "For thus saith the Lord of Hosts; Yet once, it is a little while, and I will shake the heavens, and the earth, and the sea, and the dry land; and I will shake all nations, and the Desire of all nations shall come: and I will fill this house with glory, saith the Lord of Hosts."

Isaiah 13:6 "Howl ye; for the day of the Lord is at hand; it shall come as a destruction from the Almighty."

Isaiah 10:25 "For yet a very little while, and the indignation shall cease, and my anger in their destruction."

Isaiah 56:1 "Thus saith the Lord, keep ye judgment, and do justice: for my salvation is near to come, and my righteousness to be revealed."

Jeremiah 51:33 "For thus saith the Lord of Hosts, the God of Israel; The daughter of Babylon is like threshing-floor, and it is time to thresh her: yet a little while, and the time of her harvest shall come."

Of course, they will conveniently twist these passages as well, because it does not fit into their scheme. Notice how they are so adamant about the meaning of words and phrases such as "this generation", "shortly", and "near", yet ironically in their eyes; the Day of The Lord does NOT mean the Day of The Lord; grave does NOT mean grave; body does NOT mean body; air or atmosphere does NOT mean air or atmosphere; final judgment does NOT mean final judgment; last trumpet does NOT mean last trumpet; and last day does NOT mean last day; etc. So much for consistency . They allegorize anything that will not fit into the context of their presupposition if the literal doesn't quite work, and vice versa. Pay attention to this process, it's actually quite amusing. You gotta hand it to them for creativity and imagination; but don't be conned.

I don't understand the point you are trying to make with all these verses, because each does fit into the 'preterist scheme'. Are you saying all these verses actually refer to a futurists' idea of the endtimes?

 

[Osgiliath]

Originally posted by Sinthesis
I don't understand the point you are trying to make with all these verses, because each does fit into the 'preterist scheme'. Are you saying all these verses actually refer to a futurists' idea of the endtimes?

No Sinthesis. I was simply demonstrating that prophetic words such as "near" and "shortly" often have a telescoping nature, and often denote imminency rather than immediacy.

 

[parousia70]

Don't be fooled by the word games of full-preterists. When the prophets said that something was "near", or "at hand", did they mean that it would inevitably occur within a few years? Or are they expressions which refer to imminency, rather than immediacy? Check these out:

Zephaniah 1:14 "The great day of the Lord is near, it is near, and hasteth greatly, even the voice of the day of the Lord: the mighty men shall cry there bitterly."

FULFILLED within the "generation" of the Writer when Babylon sacked Israel. One of the MANY PAST "Day of the Lord" events in scripture that took place NEAR after it was prophesied.

Joel 2:1 "Blow ye a trumpet in Zion, and sound an alarm in my holy mountain; let all the inhabitants of the land tremble: for the day of the Lord cometh, it is nigh at hand."

Again referring to the Babylonian Conquest, FULFILLED NEAR after the prophesy was given.
The Babylonian conquest of Israel is oft spoken of in scripture as a "Day of the Lord" "Day of His Wrath and vengeance", etc...

Ezekiel 30:3 "For the day is near, even the day of the Lord is near, a cloudy day; it shall be the time of the heathen."

Again, an oracle against EGYPT, FULFILLED Shortly after the prophesy was given

Ezekiel 36:8 "But ye, O mountains of Israel, ye shall shoot forth your branches, and yield your fruit to my people of Israel; for they are at hand to come."

FULFILLED in the then NEAR return of Israel from Babylonain Captivity.

Isaiah 13:6 "Howl ye; for the day of the Lord is at hand; it shall come as a destruction from the Almighty."

Fulfilled when the Medes Destroyed Babylon SHORTLY after the prophesy was given, Another PAST "Day of the Lord" event recorded fro us in scripture

Of course, they will conveniently twist these passages as well, because it does not fit into their scheme... and last day does NOT mean last day; etc.

Actually it's the futurist who says "Last Days" don't mean "Last Days":
God, who at various times and in various ways spoke in time past to the fathers by the prophets, has in these last days spoken to us by His Son, whom He has appointed heir of all things, through whom also He made the worlds; (Heb 1:1-3 NKJ)

 

[Matthew24:34]

Don't be fooled by the word games of full-preterists. When the prophets said that something was "near", or "at hand", did they mean that it would inevitably occur within a few years? Or are they expressions which refer to imminency, rather than immediacy? Check these out:

Zephaniah 1:14 "The great day of the Lord is near, it is near, and hasteth greatly, even the voice of the day of the Lord: the mighty men shall cry there bitterly."

FULFILLED within the "generation" of the Writer when Babylon sacked Israel. One of the MANY PAST "Day of the Lord" events in scripture that took place NEAR after it was prophesied.

Joel 2:1 "Blow ye a trumpet in Zion, and sound an alarm in my holy mountain; let all the inhabitants of the land tremble: for the day of the Lord cometh, it is nigh at hand."

Again referring to the Babylonian Conquest, FULFILLED NEAR after the prophesy was given.
The Babylonian conquest of Israel is oft spoken of in scripture as a "Day of the Lord" "Day of His Wrath and vengeance", etc...
[quote:2hnd2hec]
Ezekiel 30:3 "For the day is near, even the day of the Lord is near, a cloudy day; it shall be the time of the heathen."

Again, an oracle against EGYPT, FULFILLED Shortly after the prophesy was given

Ezekiel 36:8 "But ye, O mountains of Israel, ye shall shoot forth your branches, and yield your fruit to my people of Israel; for they are at hand to come."

FULFILLED in the then NEAR return of Israel from Babylonain Captivity.

Isaiah 13:6 "Howl ye; for the day of the Lord is at hand; it shall come as a destruction from the Almighty."

Fulfilled when the Medes Destroyed Babylon SHORTLY after the prophesy was given, Another PAST "Day of the Lord" event recorded fro us in scripture

Of course, they will conveniently twist these passages as well, because it does not fit into their scheme... and last day does NOT mean last day; etc.

Actually it's the futurist who says "Last Days" don't mean "Last Days":
God, who at various times and in various ways spoke in time past to the fathers by the prophets, has in these last days spoken to us by His Son, whom He has appointed heir of all things, through whom also He made the worlds; (Heb 1:1-3 NKJ)[/quote:2hnd2hec]

Great job, Parousia70, but I doubt that your exegesis will be accepted by Osgiliath. He and most dispensationalists find a few verses that SEEM to indicate imminency (and he is obviously wrong as you very ably pointed out) and uses them to "twist" the clear meanings of the numerous time words in the NT. Sadly, I don't think he even knows that he is doing that. What so many futurists, especially dispensationaists, fail to realize is that most preterists were once futurists. We know the games; we know the twisting; we know the redefining or ignoring of plain and simple words, etc. I am daily thankful to God for rescuing me from that erroneous approach to the Scriptures. I have to always remember that there are those still within it who are once as I was. If God can enlighten me, He can enlighten them. There is hope for them for a full recovery, right?

"You're a better man than I am, Gunga Din" for putting up with Osgiliath's evasive maneuvers and counter attacks. He brings out the worst in me, so I have to watch from a distance. Thanks for your patience, parousia70!

In Christ, Matthew24:34

 

[parousia70]

Great job, Parousia70, but I doubt that your exegesis will be accepted by Osgiliath. He and most dispensationalists find a few verses that SEEM to indicate imminency (and he is obviously wrong as you very ably pointed out) and uses them to "twist" the clear meanings of the numerous time words in the NT. Sadly, I don't think he even knows that he is doing that.

Well, he is weaving the typical futurist web as these conversations tend to go, and since I already know all the objections to the preterist position that there are, I am finding I'm often knowing what Osgil's next move is days before he makes it.

I'm hoping he'll address "the day of the Lord" and it's scriptural meaning.
I'v made the claim that there have been several "Day of the Lord" events in History, and his position rests on the notion that there have not.

I can't wait for him to say the Bible never speaks of the DOTL in the past tense as evidence......
I love it when the Futies roll that one out!

What so many futurists, especially dispensationaists, fail to realize is that most preterists were once futurists.

Which is why we always win.
We have their playbook, we used to run all the plays ourslves, and they don't have any new ones.

"You're a better man than I am, Gunga Din" for putting up with Osgiliath's evasive maneuvers and counter attacks. He brings out the worst in me, so I have to watch from a distance. Thanks for your patience, parousia70!

In Christ, Matthew24:34

Oh, no need to thank me, I enjoy it, I eally do!

 

[Osgiliath]

Originally posted by parousia70
Oh, no need to thank me, I enjoy it, I eally do!

Good. I enjoy it myself. I wish others felt the same way.

 

[Vic C.]

Me too!


:D

 

[parousia70]

Lets Rock -n- Roll then boyz....

C'mon Os... Day of the Lord.
One event only at the end of time, or a term used throughout scripture to describe multiple judgment events that have happened throughout history?

 

[Osgiliath]

Originally posted by parousia70
Lets Rock -n- Roll then boyz....

C'mon Os... Day of the Lord.
One event only at the end of time, or a term used throughout scripture to describe multiple judgment events that have happened throughout history?

OK; let's Rock-n-Roll. I guess the best way to do this is to thoroughly analyze "the day of the Lord" in many (or all) of these cases, and find out for sure when they happened, or "if" they happened; and if they did, how long after the prophecy was given; etc. Here's one from the list:

Obadiah 1:15 "For the day of the LORD is near upon all the heathen: as thou hast done, it shall be done unto thee: thy reward shall return upon thine own head.

1:16 For as ye have drunk upon my holy mountain, so shall all the heathen drink continually, yea, they shall drink, and they shall swallow down, and they shall be as though they had not been.

1:17 But upon mount Zion shall be deliverance, and there shall be holiness; and the house of Jacob shall possess their possessions.

1:18 And the house of Jacob shall be a fire, and the house of Joseph a flame, and the house of Esau for stubble, and they shall kindle in them, and devour them; and there shall not be any remaining of the house of Esau; for the LORD hath spoken it.

1:19 And they of the south shall possess the mount of Esau; and they of the plain the Philistines: and they shall possess the fields of Ephraim, and the fields of Samaria: and Benjamin shall possess Gilead.

1:20 And the captivity of this host of the children of Israel shall possess that of the Canaanites, even unto Zarephath; and the captivity of Jerusalem, which is in Sepharad, shall possess the cities of the south."


Historically speaking, has this prophecy occurred yet? If so; when - and how long after the prophecy was given? Let's cover all the bases here so we don't have to go back and forth playing games. Get your Bible and history books out. It's time to step it up and get to the bottom of some things. Rock-n-Roll! :D.

 

[parousia70]

Originally posted by parousia70
Lets Rock -n- Roll then boyz....

C'mon Os... Day of the Lord.
One event only at the end of time, or a term used throughout scripture to describe multiple judgment events that have happened throughout history?

OK; let's Rock-n-Roll. I guess the best way to do this is to thoroughly analyze "the day of the Lord" in many (or all) of these cases, and find out for sure when they happened, or "if" they happened; and if they did, how long after the prophecy was given; etc. Here's one from the list:

Obadiah 1:15 "For the day of the LORD is near upon all the heathen: as thou hast done, it shall be done unto thee: thy reward shall return upon thine own head.

1:16 For as ye have drunk upon my holy mountain, so shall all the heathen drink continually, yea, they shall drink, and they shall swallow down, and they shall be as though they had not been.

1:17 But upon mount Zion shall be deliverance, and there shall be holiness; and the house of Jacob shall possess their possessions.

1:18 And the house of Jacob shall be a fire, and the house of Joseph a flame, and the house of Esau for stubble, and they shall kindle in them, and devour them; and there shall not be any remaining of the house of Esau; for the LORD hath spoken it.

1:19 And they of the south shall possess the mount of Esau; and they of the plain the Philistines: and they shall possess the fields of Ephraim, and the fields of Samaria: and Benjamin shall possess Gilead.

1:20 And the captivity of this host of the children of Israel shall possess that of the Canaanites, even unto Zarephath; and the captivity of Jerusalem, which is in Sepharad, shall possess the cities of the south."


Historically speaking, has this prophecy occurred yet? If so; when - and how long after the prophecy was given? Let's cover all the bases here so we don't have to go back and forth playing games. Get your Bible and history books out. It's time to step it up and get to the bottom of some things. Rock-n-Roll! :D.

Answer my question first.
C'mon Os, I have been more than fair responding to your queries, throw me a bone here.
what do YOU think?
Day of the Lord = one time event at the end of time or, a Biblical term used to describe any number of judgment events that have taken place throughout history?

Tell me your position FIRST, then we'll debate the minutia