The Preterist Position - I have a Question

[Sinthesis]

I believe it so deeply because the events that are happening to our world right now (2009 forward) are completely accurate as prophesied to the point we as believers know the events to follow in order.

You know of the events to follow that I am speaking of are you pretending you don't? I have already mentioned a few of them in various posts. My views on events are no diffrent that of Hal Lindsay, Grant Jeffrey, Hitchcock, Hagge thousands and thousands of others.

You claim as a believer you have knowledge of where we are in the endtimes. I pay attention to current events, but I am ignorant the views of Hal Lindsay, Grant Jeffrey, Hitchcock, Hagge and thousands of others, therefore I don't know of these events that take place in the endtimes. So I'll ask again. Please help out a fellow believer and explain what endtime event just happened, and how was it prophesied? What endtime event will happen next, and how is it prophesied?

 

[Shilohsfoal]

I believe it so deeply because the events that are happening to our world right now (2009 forward) are completely accurate as prophesied to the point we as believers know the events to follow in order.

You know of the events to follow that I am speaking of are you pretending you don't? I have already mentioned a few of them in various posts. My views on events are no diffrent that of Hal Lindsay, Grant Jeffrey, Hitchcock, Hagge thousands and thousands of others.

You claim as a believer you have knowledge of where we are in the endtimes. I pay attention to current events, but I am ignorant the views of Hal Lindsay, Grant Jeffrey, Hitchcock, Hagge and thousands of others, therefore I don't know of these events that take place in the endtimes. So I'll ask again. Please help out a fellow believer and explain what endtime event just happened, and how was it prophesied? What endtime event will happen next, and how is it prophesied?

Why should he teach you?
You think he might want you to study to show thyself approved unto God?

 

[Matthew24:34]

If you would find a disconnect between verses 27 and 28 of Matthew 16, then you must find some disconnect in Jesus' statement concerning His cloud coming and glory coming in Matthew 24:30 and 31. In other words, the "all these things" Jesus stated would happen in that very generation, according to your perspective, cannot include verses 30 and 31--they must be some type of parenthesis! But is that what the text says? ALL those things happened in that generation or none of them did--unless you create some unnatural disconnect!

I am not necessarily committed to my take on Matthew 16. My present take on Matthew 24 is this: verses 29-31 are not a description of the second coming, but a symbolic description of the fall of Jerusalem and destruction of the temple. This is a "coming of Jesus" in judgement. However, I think that the scriptures do indeed point to to a future return of Jesus to consummate the redemptive plan of God.

So - in short - I think Matthew 24 is indeed about "the first century". I shall have to see if I need to modify my take on Matthew 16.

Greetings, Drew: I have a few questions, but first let me say this--I say these things with extreme caution to myself that simply because various verses contain similar terminology is not proof positive that they are referring to the same event or circumstances. I think you would probably agree with the assessment? However, there are certain terms that seem to have a specific reference. For example, you yourself agree that Matthew 24:29-31 are "a symbolic description of the fall of Jerusalem and destruction of the temple." You further believe that it is a coming of Jesus in judgment. What do you make of Jesus' "coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory?" These are similar terms which are found in Mathew 16 and 26.

What about His sending "angels with a great sound of a trumpet?" How many times will the angels "gather together His elect from the four winds?" If one is to believe as you do, he must contend that all these things were accomplished in A. D. 70. but they are to happen again! How many times did Jesus declare He was to come with the clouds of heaven in great power and glory and gather together His elect? We see the same (?) trumpets in 1 Corinthians 15 and 1 Thessalonians 4. Do you believe there are different trumpets to be sounded--in A. D. 70 and still in our future? I find it very confusing to keep all these trumpet sounds separate and distinct and attributable to different time frames! And what about the trumpets of the Revelation? Wasn't John shown those things which were in his day to "shortly" take place because the time was then "near?" Same trumpets; same time!

What do you consider the redemptive plan of God? Did not Jesus say directly to His disciples right there with Him that when they saw the things He predicted begin to happen that they were to look up and lift up their heads because their "redemption" drew near (Luke 21)? What is full redemption, Drew? Was it not the blessed hope of Israel to be saved from a destination of Sheol--the place of waiting for full redemption? Was this not the entire subject of 1 Corinthians 15--their soon-to-come full redemption when they would be given their resurrection bodies and Hades would be once and for all time cast into the lake of fire? Even Paul indicated that even in his day salvation was closer than when they first believed (Romans 13:11). What salvation, Drew? It was total victory over the grave and death. That was Paul's focus and that was Paul's teaching in 1 Corinthians. It is impossible for me to read such accounts without feeling the anticipation in Paul as he pours the real expectancy of his heart and teaches these things to his fellow saints at Thessalonica--things they were to soon realize personally.

This is the same teaching that had helped to quiet the troubled hearts of Jesus' disciples who had lived and walked with Him while He was on earth (John 14). He was leaving them--them! Not us as so many teach. We must get into their hearts to understand these things. It rarely can read these tender words from our Lord to those disciples as I try to step into their shoes without being moved to tears. Can you feel the Lord's sense of shared sorrow in His words to them? "I will not leave you orphans: I WILL come to you!" (John 14:18) and "I am going away and coming back to you" (14:28). He was deeply moved by their distress. I wonder how many believers actually take the time to contemplate that! Their hearts were breaking. Their Lord, their Friend, and their Teacher was leaving THEM. It is not our hearts Jesus comforted that day--it was theirs.

They were going to suffer greatly in the coming days and years. Jesus warned them of such things. What did He promise to them personally? Yes, He had to leave them, but He was leaving them so that He could prepare a place for them. What did He mean? Why couldn't He simply take them then? Their redemption was not yet complete; they were not yet fitted for heaven. Jesus even told them that where He was going they could not yet go but He also told them--"you shall follow Me afterward" (John 13:36)! He had to first sprinkle His "blood" on the heavenly altar and make full atonement for them before the Father so that they could be given their resurrection life and bodies. Until that time, all still died and went to Hades to wait. But He left them a comforter--the Holy Spirit--who brought to their remembrance all things He had taught them and they wrote them down in what has become the NT. After He had accomplished this work, He would come again and receive them first of all unto Himself that where He was they themselves would be also! In His mercy and according to His plan to grow His church, God determined forty years before that time; forty years for a generation to come to a close just He he had done in the wilderness!

Paul, in 1 Corinthians 15 and in 1 Thessalonians 4, is merely elaborating on Jesus' words to His disciples in John 14. As Jesus had promised them, Paul reiterates. He was coming back and when He did they would be changed, in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye at the last trumpet! That was their blessed hope and their hope became a reality and it is now our reality! Jesus' prediction that He would gather the elect from the four winds (an event you yourself ascribe to A. D. 70!) is the same event of 1 Thessalonians 4. He would come again to receive them unto Himself that where He was they would be also. The dead in Christ rose first and then those who were still alive were caught up (gathered from the four winds) together with them to meet the Lord in the air. He promised them that He would receive them unto Himself that where He was there they would be also--thus they were forever with the Lord. The comfort Jesus gave to His disciples in John 14, Paul reaffirms in 1 Thessalonians 4! Comfort one another with these words. "Behold, I am coming soon!"

In Christ, Preterist

 

[nonbelieverforums]

Hello again Preterists it would seem I found a second wind to enter into the lions den with you once again.

Someone asked me to provide modern day examples of prophecy to come or prophecy already fulfilled in which you would argue these events have already happened. So I have a couple that I will ask 1 by 1 if you don't mind. As I understand it any modern day event you will maintain the event has happened already and the current event will be a coincidence. I have about five or so.

My first is as follows:

The River Euphrates Rev: 16:12

An army of 200 million led by "the kings from the east" will march across Asia toward Israel during the Tribulation, Revelation 16:12 indicates that this army will be held up at the Euphrates River until its water is suddenly dried up, enabling them to cross and proceed to the Valley of Armageddon.

Throughout history the Euphrates River has been an impenetrable military barrier between East and West. However, the government of Turkey recently constructed the huge Ataturk Dam that can now dam up the waters of the Euphrates for the first time in history.

If the event already occured,, how was the Euphrates River dried ? Clearly it was not god, as why would he dry the river to allow an attack on Israel.

The modern day would suggest the Atatruk Dam:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FkYdvqrOJAY

Also the Chinese government has spent enormous sums and expanded the lives of hundreds of thousands of construction workers building a military super-highway across Asia heading directly toward Israel. This highway has no economic purpose and no foreigners are allowed anywhere near this road.

The highway has been completed through the south of China, Tibet, Afghanistan, and Pakistan. This curious prophecy about "the way of the kings of the east" sets the stage for the final battle of this age.

 

[nonbelieverforums]

Ezekiel 38-39 in the MODERN DAY ????

Joel Rosenberg’s Weblog

A NEW REVOLUTION IN IRAN? Reformers are on the streetsJune 17, 2009...12:40 pm
AHMADINEJAD IN MOSCOW

Shanghai Cooperation Organization meetings are underway in Moscow..

Prophetic? As Iranian forces murder pro-democracy protesters, Ahmadinejad heads straight for Moscow.


Massive protests in Iran not seen since ‘79 Revolution.
FLASH: IAEA head admits Iran seeking nuclear bomb

Students of Bible prophecy should keep a close eye on events unfolding in Iran and the epicenter, and keep praying for the Lord to have mercy on that country. With upwards of a million young, pro-democracy Reformers on the streets of Iran demanding an end to the Radicals’ regime, Iranian security forces have murdered as many as two dozen protesters. Iranian leaders are now threatening the Reformers with the death penalty. President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad  freshly annointed by the Supreme Leader to stay as the face and voice of the regime’s apocalyptic agenda  couldn’t care less. Ahmadinejad headed straight for Moscow yesterday.

There, he met with Russian President Dmitry Medvedev and leaders of the Shanghai Cooperation Organization (SCO) to continue building a political and military alliance between Russia, China, Iran and Islamic countries in Central Asia. Currently, Iran has “observer†status in the SCO, but has requested full member status. The SCO alliance is evocative of the eastern-portion of the biblical alliance foretold in Ezekiel 38-39 that will come against Israel and seek to destroy the Jewish people in what the Bible calls the “last days†of history.

When one considers how closely Russia and Iran are currently growing to the western portion of the prophetic alliance  Sudan, Libya and Algeria, for example  it’s not hard to envision these prophecies coming true in our lifetime, or even in the next few years. That said, I believe it is currently too soon to draw any conclusions. There are many intriguing trends and developments, but it remains far from clear that we’re seeing Bible prophecy come to pass. That said, we cannot rule out the possibility. Events in the region are both unprecedented and riveting. All the more reason for followers of Jesus Christ to “get ready and be prepared†for whatever lies ahead.

MIRACLE, OR MANIPULATION? Excerpt from an NYT story worth noting: “Iranians are generally united in viewing the re-election of President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad to another four-year term as a miracle. Some believe it in the literal sense that the supreme leader, Ayatollah Ali Khamenei, seemed to intend when he said ‘the miraculous hand of God’ was at work. Others believe it in the sense that they see no earthly explanation why an incumbent who presided over worsening inflation, unemployment and isolation would draw more than seven million more votes than in his first victory.†Observation: With the full backing of his Supreme Leader for his apocalyptic End Times beliefs, is Ahmadinejad more or less likely to give up Iran’s nuclear weapons program to the Obama administration?

 

[parousia70]

Originally posted by parousia70
and must, by necessity of the view, be being persecuted by them right now, to this day and beyond, since ONLY Christ's coming was to give them rest from that persecution. Not Death, not the passage of Millennia, but Christ's Coming ALONE.

Please elaborate on the specifics of that statement if you would.

Sure thang Oz,
As promised in the passage, the AD 70 Parousia ended that persecution of the Thessalonian congregation. Are the Thessalonians still suffering their first-century persecution? Does the Thessalonian church even still exist? Of course not. Paul made very clear that their persecution was to end by way of Christ's coming, and Christ did not fail to fulfill this promise to them:

For, after all, it is only just for God to repay with affliction those who afflict you and to give relief to you...when the Lord Jesus will be revealed (2 Thessalonians 1:6-7)

Did you catch that Os? God was to repay the Thessalonian persecuters and Give relief (rest) to the Thessalonain faithful "WHEN the Lord Jesus will be revealed". Not before, not by death or the passage of millennia, but ONLY at the Parousia.

Are the Thessalonians still suffering their crisis as the passage states would continue until the second coming? No. The Parousia took care of that, as promised in the passage. The Parousia was the precise event that would provide them relief from their persecutors. We must note that any "persecution relief" thousands of years removed from those to whom the promise of relief is given is no relief at all. If I am presently suffering from cancer and you tell me that I will receive relief from my cancer thousands of years from now in the far distant future, you haven't helped me at all. I must suffer for thousands of years. Such is exactly what futurists have Paul stating concerning the sufferings/persecution of the 1st century Church at Thessalonica. For certain, the Day of the Lord as a thief in the night overtook the contemporary enemies of the Thessalonican congregation historically identified at Acts 17:1-8. The Parousia overtook them, as promised:

destruction will come upon them suddenly like labor pains upon a woman with child, and they will not escape. But you, brethren, are not in darkness, that the day would overtake you like a thief. (1 Thess 5:3-4)
The obvious first-century expectation cannot be overlooked. The Day of the Lord as a thief in the night (1 Thess 5:2/Matt 24:43/Rev 3:1-3) was promised to bring relief to the Thessalonians by overcoming their contemporary enemies. We cannot emphasize enough that Jesus also applies His "thief-in-the-night" coming to the first-century Church of Sardis (Rev 3:1-3). This locks in a first century fulfillment, according to Jesus. This exact pattern of relief was promised to many of the first-century Christian churches, for their last-days sufferings were going on worldwide (1 Pet 4:7,12-13; 5:9), and they would get relief via the Parousia. Compare the relief promised to the Church at Thessalonica with the relief provided by Christ's Parousia to the other First-Century churches:

Christ's Coming to First-Century Thyatira
promise: Rev 2:18-25
result: the false prophetess and all her followers at the Thyatira church were killed off via Christ's coming. The Church was granted Christ's authority.

Christ's Coming to First-Century Pergamum
promise: Rev 2:12-16
result: the heretical first-century Nicolaitan sect was put down at Christ's coming to Pergamum. They that were causing them to break the decree of the Council of Jerusalem were put down (cf Rev 2:14; Acts 15:28-29).

Christ's Coming to First-Century Sardis
promise: Rev 3:1-5
result: Christ's "thief-in-the-night" coming came upon the Sardis church. They had not been faithfully expecting as per Matt 24:43/1 Thess 5:2-5. However, a few in Sardis were found worthy and had not soiled their garments. At His coming to them they walked in white, for they were worthy (Rev 3:4-5).

Christ's Coming to First-Century Philadelphia
promise: Rev 3:7-13
result: Christ put down the then-contemporary Jewish persecution against Philadelphia (Rev 3:9). He preserved the Church at Philadelphia through that testing which at that time came upon the whole empire (Rev 3:10). God made his faithful ones "pillars" in the Temple of God.

Christ's Coming to First-Century Laodicea
promise: Rev 3:14-21
result: Christ knocked "at the door" as promised in Matt 24:33 (cf also James 5:9). If the Laodiceans didn't repent, they were annihilated, while repentent and obedient followers became partakers of Christ's heavenly authority.

Those churches all received their promised relief. So, the answer to the question is found in scripture itself.

Either
1)the Parousia Happened, on time, as promised, or
2) these 1st century people are still today suffering their then contemporary persecution by their then contemporary afflictors as they await the Parousia which is the only event that will give them rest from that persecution and repay their afflictors, or
3)Christianity is False.

Which option do you prefer?

 

[Vic C.]

Christ's Coming to First-Century Laodicea
promise: Rev 3:14-21
result: Christ knocked "at the door" as promised in Matt 24:33 (cf also James 5:9). If the Laodiceans didn't repent, they were annihilated, while repentent and obedient followers became partakers of Christ's heavenly authority.

Now this haunts me. Over the years, I've done some research on these physical churches and discovered that first century Laodicea was destroyed and then rebuilt in the second century. No matter what, I can't escape this fact and it nags me. I've brought this up several times here, in the past and it goes either unnoticed or ignored.

I'm not sulking over that but it is something we all need to acknowledge and discuss at some point. Things like, is this accurate? Does anyone have any other archeological and/or historical facts that can further prove or even disprove this?

If it is true, it must somehow change our end times views.

 

[Drew]

Hello again Preterists it would seem I found a second wind to enter into the lions den with you once again.

Well, I do not think I qualify as a "full-on" preterist, but nevertheless....

As I understand it any modern day event you will maintain the event has happened already and the current event will be a coincidence.

I cannot speak for the others, but this is not necessarily true of me. I presently maintain that there are indeed prophecies that are yet to be fulfilled.

The River Euphrates Rev: 16:12

Now about this text. I do not have any opinion about what it means, at least not right now. But I do wish to raise a general point of method that is relevant. I trust that you realize that it would not be appropriate to approach this text with the a priori assumption that it must be speaking of a literal drying up of this river. There is clear scriptural precedent for the use of "apocalyptic metaphor" as in this text from Isaiah:

10For the stars of heaven and their constellations
Will not flash forth their light;
The sun will be dark when it rises
And the moon will not shed its light

What was going on? Babylon was being destroyed, never to be rebuilt. There are other examples of such metaphorical “end of the world†imagery being used to describe much more “mundane†events within the present space-time manifold, although of course, in some cases, such an assertion would beg the question at issue.

So it would be improper to frame the question about Rev 16:12 in such a manner that a priori precludes an interpretation of the text where the Euphrates river is not actually dried up.

And yet you seem to have framed your question with just such a pre-supposition:

If the event already occured,, how was the Euphrates River dried ?

I will try to come up with a position on this text. Thanks for giving us something specific.

 

[Matthew24:34]

There are really only two ways to look at this passage in 2 Thessalonians. Either Paul was teaching them that at some time in the very distant future, long after they had died, they would be resurrected and given this rest OR that at some time while they were yet living they would be given rest. The problem with the first scenario is that they would have to be resurrected and again be persecuted in the same way by the same "troublers" so that they could be rescued!

Even more detrimental to the futurist view is the fact that even in death, the Thessalonians were to continue being persecuted by those same troublers and must, by necessity of the view, be being persecuted by them right now, to this day and beyond, since ONLY Christ's coming was to give them rest from that persecution. Not Death, not the passage of Millennia, but Christ's Coming ALONE.

Some of those Thessalonians today must be very, very, very old!

Matthew24:34

 

[Osgiliath]

Originally posted by parousia70
Christ's Coming to First-Century Thyatira
promise: Rev 2:18-25
result: the false prophetess and all her followers at the Thyatira church were killed off via Christ's coming. The Church was granted Christ's authority.

Christ's Coming to First-Century Pergamum
promise: Rev 2:12-16
result: the heretical first-century Nicolaitan sect was put down at Christ's coming to Pergamum. They that were causing them to break the decree of the Council of Jerusalem were put down (cf Rev 2:14; Acts 15:28-29).

Christ's Coming to First-Century Sardis
promise: Rev 3:1-5
result: Christ's "thief-in-the-night" coming came upon the Sardis church. They had not been faithfully expecting as per Matt 24:43/1 Thess 5:2-5. However, a few in Sardis were found worthy and had not soiled their garments. At His coming to them they walked in white, for they were worthy (Rev 3:4-5).

Christ's Coming to First-Century Philadelphia
promise: Rev 3:7-13
result: Christ put down the then-contemporary Jewish persecution against Philadelphia (Rev 3:9). He preserved the Church at Philadelphia through that testing which at that time came upon the whole empire (Rev 3:10). God made his faithful ones "pillars" in the Temple of God.

Christ's Coming to First-Century Laodicea
promise: Rev 3:14-21
result: Christ knocked "at the door" as promised in Matt 24:33 (cf also James 5:9). If the Laodiceans didn't repent, they were annihilated, while repentent and obedient followers became partakers of Christ's heavenly authority.

Those churches all received their promised relief. So, the answer to the question is found in scripture itself.

This is still nothing but speculation that cannot be confirmed Biblically. You're acting as if all of that was written in the past tense (surprise surprise), when it was written in the future tense. Again, no matter how "likely" you feel your presumption is, it is still a presumption nonetheless that cannot be verified by Scripture. Also, if the judgment and parousia was a localized event focusing on Jerusalem and the Temple, what would seven churches in Asia hundreds of miles away have to worry about? What is the significance of delivering the church of Philadelphia from judgment if that judgment occurs hundreds of miles away beyond the borders of that city? Your presumptuous conclusions that are based on "supposed" historical events are being forced upon the Scriptures, and even so, they still do not line up. Anyway, are you going to address my question concerning Nero, the beast, and Revelation 17; or not? Come on folks, it's been there for almost a week already.

 

[Vic C.]

... Anyway, are you going to address my question concerning Nero, the beast, and Revelation 17; or not? Come on folks, it's been there for almost a week already.

Wait one minute! LOL Did you see what I posted above? I've been addressing that concern here since last July. :D Still haven't gotten anyone interested in discussing it. But I'll wait patiently, nonetheless.

 

[Sinthesis]

Originally posted by parousia70
Christ's Coming to First-Century Thyatira
promise: Rev 2:18-25
result: the false prophetess and all her followers at the Thyatira church were killed off via Christ's coming. The Church was granted Christ's authority.

Christ's Coming to First-Century Pergamum
promise: Rev 2:12-16
result: the heretical first-century Nicolaitan sect was put down at Christ's coming to Pergamum. They that were causing them to break the decree of the Council of Jerusalem were put down (cf Rev 2:14; Acts 15:28-29).

Christ's Coming to First-Century Sardis
promise: Rev 3:1-5
result: Christ's "thief-in-the-night" coming came upon the Sardis church. They had not been faithfully expecting as per Matt 24:43/1 Thess 5:2-5. However, a few in Sardis were found worthy and had not soiled their garments. At His coming to them they walked in white, for they were worthy (Rev 3:4-5).

Christ's Coming to First-Century Philadelphia
promise: Rev 3:7-13
result: Christ put down the then-contemporary Jewish persecution against Philadelphia (Rev 3:9). He preserved the Church at Philadelphia through that testing which at that time came upon the whole empire (Rev 3:10). God made his faithful ones "pillars" in the Temple of God.

Christ's Coming to First-Century Laodicea
promise: Rev 3:14-21
result: Christ knocked "at the door" as promised in Matt 24:33 (cf also James 5:9). If the Laodiceans didn't repent, they were annihilated, while repentent and obedient followers became partakers of Christ's heavenly authority.

Those churches all received their promised relief. So, the answer to the question is found in scripture itself.

This is still nothing but speculation that cannot be confirmed Biblically. You're acting as if all of that was written in the past tense (surprise surprise), when it was written in the future tense. Again, no matter how "likely" you feel your presumption is, it is still a presumption nonetheless that cannot be verified by Scripture. Also, if the judgment and parousia was a localized event focusing on Jerusalem and the Temple, what would seven churches in Asia hundreds of miles away have to worry about? What is the significance of delivering the church of Philadelphia from judgment if that judgment occurs hundreds of miles away beyond the borders of that city? Your presumptuous conclusions that are based on "supposed" historical events are being forced upon the Scriptures, and even so, they still do not line up. Anyway, are you going to address my question concerning Nero, the beast, and Revelation 17; or not? Come on folks, it's been there for almost a week already.

And the answer has been there two days already

Osgiliath, the only reason why you feel you have achieved some sort of checkmate is because you have misinterpreted so much.

God is often referred to as the great 'I Am'. Now contrast that with one who 'was' and 'will be' but 'is not now'. Complete opposites. This is a way to describe the beast as a false god.

The scarlet beast is Pagan Rome. It is personified by it's leadership (seven heads/kings).
1 - Republic (510-27BC) Fallen
2 - Augustus (27BC-14AD) Fallen
3 - Tiberius (14-37AD) Fallen
4 - Caligula (37-41AD) Fallen
5 - Claudius (41-54AD) Fallen
6 - Nero(666) (54-68AD) Is
7 - Vespasian (69-79AD) Is not yet come (to Judaea for a short space) until he leaves to consolidate his empire.
'an' 8th - Refers back to the scarlet beast (Rev 17:3) that is further described in Revelation 17:8. 'An 8th' shows that the beast will remain beyond the 7th king until Christianity destroys Pagan Rome beginning in 313AD(Rev 17:14).

Ten horns are symbolic of the pagan Roman Empire's leadership from 70AD until it's fall.

 

[parousia70]

Originally posted by parousia70
Christ's Coming to First-Century Thyatira
promise: Rev 2:18-25
result: the false prophetess and all her followers at the Thyatira church were killed off via Christ's coming. The Church was granted Christ's authority.

Christ's Coming to First-Century Pergamum
promise: Rev 2:12-16
result: the heretical first-century Nicolaitan sect was put down at Christ's coming to Pergamum. They that were causing them to break the decree of the Council of Jerusalem were put down (cf Rev 2:14; Acts 15:28-29).

Christ's Coming to First-Century Sardis
promise: Rev 3:1-5
result: Christ's "thief-in-the-night" coming came upon the Sardis church. They had not been faithfully expecting as per Matt 24:43/1 Thess 5:2-5. However, a few in Sardis were found worthy and had not soiled their garments. At His coming to them they walked in white, for they were worthy (Rev 3:4-5).

Christ's Coming to First-Century Philadelphia
promise: Rev 3:7-13
result: Christ put down the then-contemporary Jewish persecution against Philadelphia (Rev 3:9). He preserved the Church at Philadelphia through that testing which at that time came upon the whole empire (Rev 3:10). God made his faithful ones "pillars" in the Temple of God.

Christ's Coming to First-Century Laodicea
promise: Rev 3:14-21
result: Christ knocked "at the door" as promised in Matt 24:33 (cf also James 5:9). If the Laodiceans didn't repent, they were annihilated, while repentent and obedient followers became partakers of Christ's heavenly authority.

Those churches all received their promised relief. So, the answer to the question is found in scripture itself.

This is still nothing but speculation that cannot be confirmed Biblically.

It is confirmed Biblically, If we are to believe Jesus keeps His promises.

 

[parousia70]

Christ's Coming to First-Century Laodicea
promise: Rev 3:14-21
result: Christ knocked "at the door" as promised in Matt 24:33 (cf also James 5:9). If the Laodiceans didn't repent, they were annihilated, while repentent and obedient followers became partakers of Christ's heavenly authority.

Now this haunts me. Over the years, I've done some research on these physical churches and discovered that first century Laodicea was destroyed and then rebuilt in the second century. No matter what, I can't escape this fact and it nags me. I've brought this up several times here, in the past and it goes either unnoticed or ignored.

I'm not sulking over that but it is something we all need to acknowledge and discuss at some point. Things like, is this accurate? Does anyone have any other archeological and/or historical facts that can further prove or even disprove this?

If it is true, it must somehow change our end times views.

Once in a While you can get shown the light, in the strangest of places if you look at it right...

Indeed the archeological evidence is intriguing, but the bigger haunting question is whether or not we can believe Christ keeps his promises.

The scripture examples I posted are clear, defining promises made by Christ to real air breathing, blood pumping people alive in the 1st century. Promises to give THEM rest from THEIR persecution and to punish THEIR afflictors via His Parousia.

When We of the Christian Faith start looking for ways for it to be possible for Christ to fail to deliver on a specific promise to a specific people (as futurists must do with these verses) then, as St Paul said, "our faith is in vain, and we are of all men most miserable".

The archeological evidence is interesting, but in the end, only ancillary to the mandate of our faith that requires us to believe and accept that if Christ promised something would befall a particular people in a particular time, and those people and that time have passed millennia ago, we are required to believe it MUST have happened, archeological evidence or not.

 

[turnorburn]

Does the Preterist Position have the capability condemn people to hell ?

I have been going back and forth with a couple of believers who are of the Preterist position as it relates to bible prophecy.

To be honest I am learning as I go about this view. I am just a believer. But my concern about the view is that they deny the existence or the rise of a modern day 21 Century antichrist. I would like to know what Christians think about this view via the following question (or scenario) I posed.


QUESTION:

Lets say for example a world leader arose out of the E.U. He ultimately asked people to accept a mark or an rfid chip implant or they would be unable to buy or sell. This of course like everything in endtimes (my views not yours) came in the name of peace and security. So if I understand correctly, you would gladly accept this mark as you would be convinced there is no biblical Antichrist. What would your response to that be ?? Would you accept this mark knowing that if you didn't you would not be able to buy or sell? I ask you to please tell me what would you do if you were faced with this exact scenario? According to you there are no future signs or warnings. So no matter how much modern day events seem to match the events of Revelation you should have no worries.

Christians who have the future view I guess you call it ? Would not accept this mark as they have been properly educated and warned from scripture that this is the mark of the beast. But you would?

ANSWER:

None of those things would have anything to do with Bible prophecy! Furthermore, NBF--"Israel" today is NOT the Israel of the OT. That nation is gone forever! If Islamic nations go to war against modern, nonbiblical Israel, it would simply be a war between two godless nations. Any world leader who might emerge is NOT Antichrist since Antichrist and the spirit of Antichrist were OT entities. It could be said that any leader today who opposes Christ is "Antichrist"--but he would still not be anyone fulfilling Bible prophecy.

Can I not reject the mark of a tyrant even in our day although He is not THE supposed Antichrist of the Bible. Why would I receive a mark from such a man? Christ is still My Lord. I still serve Him. Why would I do something that displeases Him? Your hypothetical situation has nothing to do with Bible prophecy. Why should I have no worries? There are still great evils in this world--some of which are exemplified by those in power in the US! Because no biblical "Antichrist" is doing such wicked things does not mean I wouldn't be concerned about it. I don't get your point here. Whatever the situation, I would hope that I would do that which is pleasing to my Lord! What does Antichrist have to do with that?

QUESTION

It is very relevant. I suggest that some of your views could actually commit people to hell if we believe them.

If I come to Christ as a newcomer under this view, I would believe there is no such thing as a modern day “biblical Antichrist†in your own words. So if such a leader was to arise out of ten nations and he matched every single criteria that describes the Antichrist in the bible (I believe there are 46) I should have no worries because it’s just a coincidence. He won’t come as a tyrant (He will have a mouth speaking great things. Very boastful - Daniel 7:8). In the name of peace and security.

So when this charismatic world leader who says all the right things, and everyone just loves him starts talking about a wonderful security system that will protect us from terrorism, identity fraud, counterfeit currency, safer travel at our airports and borders, a perfect cashless society. When he pitches the mark in the name of peace and security anyone under your views should would be safe to accept the mark because there is no such thing as a biblical antichrist in the 21 Century .

If anyone accepts this mark they are condemned and you lead with way with your view. What if a man shows up out of nowhere and declares himself god or the son of god, I guess he could be then as we need not pay any attention to the bible warning us of false prophets in end times or the modern day.

My friend you need to open your eyes and pray for guidance. You need to read the bible and pay attention to the media and current events. The evidence is overwhelming and you should be ashamed in fact you should be repenting. Your eyes are closed. I mean you no disrespect but I don’t believe a person like you would ever see heaven.

Your view is a gamble and when you open your mouth and put it in writing it has the capability to condemn people to hell. This is the only real thing that concerns me about this view.

85% of the bible was prophetic when it was written OT and NT. Prophecy after prophecy has already been fulfilled. The evidence on what is happening to our world right now is overwhelming, the probability in the millions as it relates to prophecy. . You deny everything a modern day Israel, the third temple, the antichrist, the war of Ezekiel 38-39.

The world is slowing turning against Israel we can see how this can be now. Russian has already assisted Iran in obtaining nuclear weapons the relationship between the two countries is a matter of public record. I suspect we will be seeing Putin asking Russia to Unite with the Islamic nations to go to war against Israel very soon or at least in this lifetime. What will you say then ??

A third temple is being built. We see the signs of a one world religion from the UN Alliance of Civilizations, New Age is being preached. A centralized banking system is already set up. Time magazine just reported on the New World Order.

God gave us prophecy so we may see the signs and educate ourselves.

Not only is modern prophecy being fullfiled. The fullfilment of prophecies are be fulfilled in order almost to the point we know what's going to happen next IN ORDER. Let me say that again an actual sequence of events being fullfiled right in front of us IN ORDER. Are you blind?

Just how far will you take this view where you see modern day events unfold as it relates to prophecy and just ignore it and call it all a big coincidence. Because that is exactly what your saying while one prophecy is fullfiled after the other, one big coincidence.

If you were sitting in the middle of the battle Armageddon with bullets flying by your ears would you believe it then? Like what has to happen for you to register current events with biblical prophecy?

Brother/s please open your eyes !!

Is this what you were looking for?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=69axIeq3ZWE

turnorburn

 

[Osgiliath]

Originally posted by Sinthesis
And the answer has been there two days already

Yes Sinthesis, we've discussed your answer already, and your answer reflects a partial-preterist position. My question is to the full-preterists who insist that Nero was the beast. Obviously, you do not.

Thanks for answering though. :D Now if I can just get the full-preterists to come out of hiding regarding this question, I'll be satisfied.

 

[nonbelieverforums]

Is this what you were looking for?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=69axIeq3ZWE

turnorburn

I appreciate the effort but this will have no bearing on the Preterist Position I'm afraid until they see Russia/China and Iran actually charge against Israel they will continue to with their views. They heed no warnings in the modern day and make sure no one else will either.

As I write this on June 18, 2009 Ahmadinejad is in Russia right now there, he met with Russian President Dmitry Medvedev and leaders of the Shanghai Cooperation Organization (SCO) to continue building a political and military alliance between Russia, China, Iran and Islamic countries in Central Asia. Currently, Iran has “observer†status in the SCO, but has requested full member status.

I pray for Preterist what else can I do .. I am just a man, I am just a believer. who am I.

 

[turnorburn]

Is this what you were looking for?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=69axIeq3ZWE

turnorburn

I appreciate the effort but this will have no bearing on the Preterist Position I'm afraid until they see Russia/China and Iran actually charge against Israel they will continue to with their views. They heed no warnings in the modern day and make sure no one else will either.

As I write this on June 18, 2009 Ahmadinejad is in Russia right now there, he met with Russian President Dmitry Medvedev and leaders of the Shanghai Cooperation Organization (SCO) to continue building a political and military alliance between Russia, China, Iran and Islamic countries in Central Asia. Currently, Iran has “observer†status in the SCO, but has requested full member status.

I pray for Preterist what else can I do .. I am just a man, I am just a believer. who am I.

I totally agree, I believe Jesus will return in our generation, I was born during the Exodus of Gods people moving back to Israel, add to that God sending a strong delusion to those that refuse to repent and receive His only begotten Son. There is an over abundance of modern man made inventions that lead the flock astray in the wrong direction if you will.


turnorburn

 

[nonbelieverforums]

QUESTION 1

Will anyone be taking this question on ??


Hello again Preterists it would seem I found a second wind to enter into the lions den with you once again.

Someone asked me to provide modern day examples of prophecy to come or prophecy already fulfilled in which you would argue these events have already happened. So I have a couple that I will ask 1 by 1 if you don't mind. As I understand it any modern day event you will maintain the event has happened already and the current event will be a coincidence. I have about five or so.

My first is as follows:

The River Euphrates Rev: 16:12

An army of 200 million led by "the kings from the east" will march across Asia toward Israel during the Tribulation, Revelation 16:12 indicates that this army will be held up at the Euphrates River until its water is suddenly dried up, enabling them to cross and proceed to the Valley of Armageddon.

Throughout history the Euphrates River has been an impenetrable military barrier between East and West. However, the government of Turkey recently constructed the huge Ataturk Dam that can now dam up the waters of the Euphrates for the first time in history.

If the event already occured,, how was the Euphrates River dried ? Clearly it was not god, as why would he dry the river to allow an attack on Israel.

The modern day would suggest the Atatruk Dam:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FkYdvqrOJAY

Also the Chinese government has spent enormous sums and expanded the lives of hundreds of thousands of construction workers building a military super-highway across Asia heading directly toward Israel. This highway has no economic purpose and no foreigners are allowed anywhere near this road.

The highway has been completed through the south of China, Tibet, Afghanistan, and Pakistan. This curious prophecy about "the way of the kings of the east" sets the stage for the final battle of this age.

 

[Drew]

Will anyone be taking this question on ??

Your question is valid. I have not really studied "end times" stuff very much, so, as I have already indicated, I do not have an immediate answer to the text you provided. I hope to shortly. Perhaps you can address the question that I have already raised in respect to this passage: Are you committed to a reading of this passage that requires us to understand that the prophecy necessarily involves a literal drying up of the Euphrates River?

It seems from your post that you seem to think that unless the Euphrates river has dried up in past, then the prophecy must be about some future event. That kind of argument would not mesh with the way Scripture is written. Often, apocalyptic metaphor is used - overly dramatic "end of the world" language used with the intent of characterizing events that do not involve the end of the world.

So while I do not have an opinion on what the text is about, I would point out that a claim that it has already been fulfilled cannot necessarily be countered by the question "well, when was the Euphrates dried up?". If the explanation of the "preterist" or the "semi-preterist" involves an appeal to apocalyptic metaphor, that kind of response would not work.