The pretrib fib

[watchman F]

Watchman:

Just so you know where I stand. I do not believe in soul sleep.

Please read Psalms 33:19 & 20 and Psalms 44:25 and Psalm 49:15 and Psalms 116:8 and Psalms 119:25

IN Christ - MM

So MM
#1 What is a soul
#2 What happens to it when you die?

1. breath life and memory

2. When you die, your soul dies with you. The verses I provided should have clearly shown you this.

Now, when are you going to start answering my questions ?

Isn't that what an exchange of conversation is all about ?

And this will be my last post with you on this subject, unless you are more willing to discuss back and forth .

You first answer of what a soul is I almost agree with. I would say your soul is that mind, emotions, and will. However your second answer is way off. You claimed you didn;t believe in soul sleep, but then you stated ''When you die, your soul dies with you''. Either you didn;t know what I meant when I said soul sleep (it is the believe that you remember nothing from the time of your death until you are resurrected) or you have a even more sinister believe that of ''soul death'' in which the soul as you say is actually dead. That is beyond the pale my friend, beyond the pale. When we die (if we are christians) our souls go to Heaven.

 

[Mysteryman]

To all:

When we die, we die ! Our souls go to the grave with us.

Every human being has what is called -- The spirit of man

The giver is God

The spirit of man goes back to God, who is the giver . Ecc. 12:7


We are -- body ---- soul ---and spirit

When we die , the spirit of man goes back to God. The body and soul die and remain in the grave until one of the two resurrections accures. One of the resurrections is the gathering up of the saints. The other resurrection is in the Last Day.

Your soul is breath life and memory and in Ecclesiates 2:16 - "For there is no remembrance of the wise more than the fool for ever ; seeing that which now is in the days to come shall all be forgotten. And how dieth the wise man, as the fool"

The spirit of man is the emotions of mankind. To laugh, sing, cry, anger,become weary ability to speak, this is how God changed all the languages on earth, etc. and deals with the same attributes that God and the angels have. This is also how God makes certain people who they are. A musician, a doctor, mathmatician, carpenter, electrician, farmer, king like Pharaoh, wise person such as Solomon, the list is almost endless. Genesis 1:26 - "let us make man in our image"

IN Christ - MM

 

[Mysteryman]

To all :

Many people call the spirit of man the soul, which is not true !

Christians however, have the Spirit of Christ in them.

When we die, this Spirit remains with us ! The body dies, but the Spirit sleepeth.

IN Christ - MM

 

[veteran]

VETERAN -- OK, I will try to just stick to some simple points:

The 6th Seal of Revelation is the start of the day of the Lord. Joel 2:31 makes that clear. Post-tribbers and Pre-tribbers somehow ignore Joel 2:31 even though it single-handedly refutes both models.

The 7 seals declare INFORMATION, not chronological order of events. Recall Rev.5 where John wept because there was none found worthy to open the book with seven seals, and then only The Lamb is found worthy to open them. The 1st seal event is entirely out of order with the trumpets, regardless of whether one believes pre-trib or post-trib. That's a hint to not treat the seals in chronological order, but to become sealed in the information they impart.

It's the 7 TRUMPETS which give the proper order of events for the very end, including the timing of Christ's coming to gather us (recall the "trump" of 1 Thess.4, and the "last trump" of 1 Cor.15?). The 3 woes given with the last three trumpets serve as an anchor for the proper chronological order. The stars falling to earth and untimely figs idea is connected with the 6th seal, which is about Rev.12:6-17, a time of persecution of the saints because of Satan and his angels being cast down to the earth, and the flood that comes out of the dragon's mouth going after the saints on earth. That doesn't show Christ's coming, it shows a time of tribulation upon the saints, per Rev.12:17.

Also, the Joel 2:28-32 Scripture you refer to was quoted by Peter on Pentecost, concerning the cloven tongue manifested by The Holy Spirit. Peter said, "But this is that which was spoken by the prophet Joel" (Acts 2:16.) It means Pentecost was an 'example' of those Joel verses. And the Pentecost event was when they spoke, everyone present heard in the very dialect and language of their birth, regardless of where they were born, or what language they spoke. What event in the seven seals and seven trumpets is that about? The Testimony, the witness, that the faithful saints are to give in the tribulation time. The cloven tongue is going to manifest once again like it did on Pentecost, and all hearing their Testimony for Christ will hear in their own dialect and language. How will the saints be on earth to do that if they are already raptured? So even those Joel verses a tied to Christ's servants at the very end on earth giving a Witness to the world by The Holy Spirit, and does not give the exact order for Christ's coming to gather us. It only puts the times in the ballpark of Christ's coming.

The 6th Seal is the fulfillment of Isaiah 2 (which is the Day of The Lord). All the signs of the Day of The Lord as described in the OT are there. The rich and powerful people even proclaim it's the day of God's wrath. At this point there's nothing else to debate. The Day of The Lord is not the Second Coming. You are just misinterpreting scripture.

I agree, the events in Isaiah 2 are about the time of Christ's return, just as the Jeremiah example, which was historical, also serves as a blueprint for the end, which mentions what? It mentions an army coming upon God's people, which is what Ezekiel 38-39 is about, and how is that army stopped? That's when God will come off His Throne to end it, and pour out His wrath upon them. But He doesn't do that until that army starts coming upon Jerusalem and His People, which even Luke 21 shows you that. That's the event which ENDS the great tribulation upon the saints. God's wrath is about our deliverance, but a destruction upon Christ's enemies.

 

[watchman F]

MM first you say this....

Watchman:
Just so you know where I stand. I do not believe in soul sleep.
IN Christ - MM

And then you said this.......

When we die, we die ! Our souls go to the grave with us.

When we die , the spirit of man goes back to God. The body and soul die and remain in the grave until one of the two resurrections occurs. One of the resurrections is the gathering up of the saints. The other resurrection is in the Last Day.

It is obvious that you have no idea what you are even teaching. You say you do not believe in soul sleep, then you teach the very definition of soul sleep. Soul sleep is a false doctrine and as Vic said a whole other subject, but now atleast i know why you cannot accept the truth of scripture that the souls of the dead return with Christ from Heaven at the 2nd coming. You are too full of error for me to explain the truth to you. You need to seek God for guidance on this one

The spirit of man is the emotions of mankind. To laugh, sing, cry, anger,become weary ability to speak, this is how God changed all the languages on earth, etc. and deals with the same attributes that God and the angels have. This is also how God makes certain people who they are. A musician, a doctor, mathmatician, carpenter, electrician, farmer, king like Pharaoh, wise person such as Solomon, the list is almost endless. Genesis 1:26 - "let us make man in our image"

IN Christ - MM

More Fallacy. The soul is the mind, will and emotions of a person. And you tell others they have confused soul and spirit...good grief!!!!!

If you want to discuss soul and spirit maybe you could respect me as the O.P. and start a new thread.

 

[Mysteryman]

Pre trib is not a fib !

There are two tribulation periods, not one.

Whenever anyone wants to make such a fabrication such as this. It is based upon many things. One could be a lack of knowledge. We have all been there. Another could be an influence , which can come by someone teaching another something that is not true.

When one dies, their body and soul die. The spirit of man goes back to God.

The usage of the word "soul" can mean the ability to speak. God has a soul , and so do angels.

After the church is gathered up, just before the first tribulation period. In Rev. 6:9 & 10 - 'the souls of them that were dead/slain. < Past tense

The fifth seal lines up with the fifth dispensation. At the end of the fifth dispensation the saints are gathered up, and they now are the souls mentioned here in Rev. 6: 9 & 10 < This is pre trib !

The sixth seal starts the sixth dispensation, and during this dispensation, the saints wait for the brethren that are mentioned in Rev. 6:11. < This sixth seal period of time is the first tribulation period, or sixth dispensation. Which is where we find the 144,000 virgins as well as their death, and they reign with Christ for the 1000 year reign.

The seventh seal, is also the seventh dispensation. When Satan is loosed from his priosn, This is when the seventh dispensation begins. At the end of the seventh dispensation / seventh seal, this is when Christ comes back with the saints (souls = saints) to battle the devil and destroys death once and for all. The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death ! The seventh seal / dispensation is the "greate tribulation", also called the "wrath of God".

Pre trib, fib, < Is a fib !

IN Christ - MM

 

[NJBeliever]

VETERAN -- OK, I will try to just stick to some simple points:

The 6th Seal of Revelation is the start of the day of the Lord. Joel 2:31 makes that clear. Post-tribbers and Pre-tribbers somehow ignore Joel 2:31 even though it single-handedly refutes both models.

The 7 seals declare INFORMATION, not chronological order of events.

Where does it ever say this in the Bible?

Recall Rev.5 where John wept because there was none found worthy to open the book with seven seals, and then only The Lamb is found worthy to open them. The 1st seal event is entirely out of order with the trumpets, regardless of whether one believes pre-trib or post-trib. That's a hint to not treat the seals in chronological order, but to become sealed in the information they impart.

Again, where do you get this from?? There is nothing out of order with the 6th Seal. Revelation 5 is taking place right after the Ascension of Christ to Heaven. We are not told how much time transpires between the Lamb being praised and "After" when the seal is opened. But really it doesn't matter. I am not a pre-tribber so I don't believe that the end times starts with the 1st seal. But they certainly are opened in sequence (hence them being numbered). And we know Biblically, the seven angels who have trumpets do not even get the trumpets until the seventh seal is opened.

It's the 7 TRUMPETS which give the proper order of events for the very end, including the timing of Christ's coming to gather us (recall the "trump" of 1 Thess.4, and the "last trump" of 1 Cor.15?). The 3 woes given with the last three trumpets serve as an anchor for the proper chronological order. The stars falling to earth and untimely figs idea is connected with the 6th seal, which is about Rev.12:6-17, a time of persecution of the saints because of Satan and his angels being cast down to the earth, and the flood that comes out of the dragon's mouth going after the saints on earth. That doesn't show Christ's coming, it shows a time of tribulation upon the saints, per Rev.12:17.

So by your logic Christ should be coming at the 7th trumpet, and yet, we don't see that happen. Dare I say the "Last Trump" is not referring to that trumpet but to the Feast of Trumpets. And again, you are just making Rev 12 and Rev 6 the same event without explaining how or where the Bible indicates this.

The 6th Seal is the fulfillment of Isaiah 2 (which is the Day of The Lord). All the signs of the Day of The Lord as described in the OT are there. The rich and powerful people even proclaim it's the day of God's wrath. At this point there's nothing else to debate. The Day of The Lord is not the Second Coming. You are just misinterpreting scripture.

I agree, the events in Isaiah 2 are about the time of Christ's return,/quote]

But that's not what I am saying. And this is the simplest point I'm trying to make. You even quote me in your answer. I said the SIXTH SEAL of Revelation is the fulfillment of Isaiah 2. Do you really disagree with that? Because really, again, that point alone pretty much refutes the entire post-trib model.

Now that you've provided more explanation I see that we are much farther off than just rapture models. It's just interpretation of the prophetic scriptures themselves. But again for clarity, I don't believe the first four seals are The Day of The Lord. I think they are opened now, today. And as I've stated, I believe the rapture precedes the Day of The Lord which starts at the 6th Seal.

 

[NJBeliever]

NJBeliever:

Do you believe in just one tribulation period or two ?

I don't believe in any tribulation period. There is the rapture and then The Day of The Lord and Daniel's 70th week. These are the Biblical end-time periods as described in Scripture. The Day of The Lord is referred to in Rev chapter 7 as "Great Tribulation." So that I do believe in as well.

 

[Vic C.]

So by your logic Christ should be coming at the 7th trumpet, and yet, we don't see that happen. Dare I say the "Last Trump" is not referring to that trumpet but to the Feast of Trumpets. And again, you are just making Rev 12 and Rev 6 the same event without explaining how or where the Bible indicates this.

Yay, someone's been paying attention. ;)

About Rev 6 and 12. Some believe Rev. chs. 12-15 is a different look at events which would begin at midpoint of your 70th.week. When I studied PreWrath, their timeline is as such:

the first few seals were all a part of the first half of the week. Seal five would be the start of the GT (midpoint). Rev. 12 does have some strong indications of the "dragon" persecuting the believers, which is what seal five is all about. Seal six is what users in the Wrath, (Rev.6:17) which is the Day of the Lord. It is NOT to be confused with the Great Tribulation, which would consist of the persecution of believers.

To say that the GT IS the DOTL would indicate that God is persecuting His own! No... the GT and the DOTL are two distinct events. In the PreWrath timeline, the DOTL starts somewhere around the midpoint of the second half of your prophetic week.

http://www.lookup.org/timeline.htm

Though I'm not a true futurist, prewrath makes the most sense to me, if I had to choose a futurist position.

 

[Mysteryman]

NJBeliever:

Do you believe in just one tribulation period or two ?

I don't believe in any tribulation period. There is the rapture and then The Day of The Lord and Daniel's 70th week. These are the Biblical end-time periods as described in Scripture. The Day of The Lord is referred to in Rev chapter 7 as "Great Tribulation." So that I do believe in as well.

Hi NJB

The great tribulation is also called the wrath of God. But this does not take place until the seventh seal. The saints are gathered up at the end of the fifth seal. Which is also the fifth dispensation. We see this in Rev. 6:9. The sixth seal has not been opened as of yet. Which is the sixth dispensation.

 

[NJBeliever]

So by your logic Christ should be coming at the 7th trumpet, and yet, we don't see that happen. Dare I say the "Last Trump" is not referring to that trumpet but to the Feast of Trumpets. And again, you are just making Rev 12 and Rev 6 the same event without explaining how or where the Bible indicates this.

Yay, someone's been paying attention. ;)

About Rev 6 and 12. Some believe Rev. chs. 12-15 is a different look at events which would begin at midpoint of your 70th.week. When I studied PreWrath, their timeline is as such:

the first few seals were all a part of the first half of the week. Seal five would be the start of the GT (midpoint). Rev. 12 does have some strong indications of the "dragon" persecuting the believers, which is what seal five is all about. Seal six is what users in the Wrath, (Rev.6:17) which is the Day of the Lord. It is NOT to be confused with the Great Tribulation, which would consist of the persecution of believers.

To say that the GT IS the DOTL would indicate that God is persecuting His own! No... the GT and the DOTL are two distinct events. In the PreWrath timeline, the DOTL starts somewhere around the midpoint of the second half of your prophetic week.

http://www.lookup.org/timeline.htm

Though I'm not a true futurist, prewrath makes the most sense to me, if I had to choose a futurist position.

Well to start off Pre-wrath is flawed but it is the CLOSEST to being the Biblical rapture.

Vic please show me the verses that you are relying one when you discuss the "Great Tribulation." I don't really like using that term, because Day of The Lord and 70th week are really what's happening. And again, that is at the 6th Seal. Isaiah 2 and Joel 2:31 make this pretty obvious. The pre-wrath timeline is incorrect. We already know factually that the midpoint of the 70th week is the 6th trumpet. Why? Because the witnesses who were sent for 1,260 days are killed 3 days beforehand ("the second woe is past..").

And I said before, I believe the rapture precedes the Day of The Lord, so God is not persecuting His own. They and the dead in Christ are safely taken away. Again, this is why the epistles to the Thessalonians were written. They were scared (and had been misled) that they missed the rapture and were in the Day of The Lord. This why Paul tells them the signs before The Day comes (man of sin revealed, falling away). He also tells them that their dead brothers and sisters will not be on Earth either (the dead in Christ shall rise first). Think about it logically: why would Christians be scared about the Second Coming of Christ??? Why would they be so worried that they'd send international mail to Paul about this? They should be anxiously looking forward to it!! Yet what does Paul say after he describes the rapture? "Comfort one another" with these words. It's because they were worried about the Day of The Lord, when God arises to shake the Earth and punish the whole heathen planet.

Isaiah 26:19Thy dead men shall live, together with my dead body shall they arise. Awake and sing, ye that dwell in dust: for thy dew is as the dew of herbs, and the earth shall cast out the dead. 20Come, my people, enter thou into thy chambers, and shut thy doors about thee: hide thyself as it were for a little moment, until the indignation be overpast. 21For, behold, the LORD cometh out of his place to punish the inhabitants of the earth for their iniquity: the earth also shall disclose her blood, and shall no more cover her slain.

There it is. The rapture right before The Day of The Lord. The dead in Christ rise first, then those of us who are here, go next. Until the indignation is past. God bless.

 

[NJBeliever]

NJBeliever:

Do you believe in just one tribulation period or two ?

I don't believe in any tribulation period. There is the rapture and then The Day of The Lord and Daniel's 70th week. These are the Biblical end-time periods as described in Scripture. The Day of The Lord is referred to in Rev chapter 7 as "Great Tribulation." So that I do believe in as well.

Hi NJB

The great tribulation is also called the wrath of God. But this does not take place until the seventh seal. The saints are gathered up at the end of the fifth seal. Which is also the fifth dispensation. We see this in Rev. 6:9. The sixth seal has not been opened as of yet. Which is the sixth dispensation.

Mysteryman -- I don't know anything about the various dispensations. I don't know why we need to see Revelation that way. Why can't we just read it plainly as it written. You just said the GT is called "the wrath of God." At the 6th seal this is what is said:

" Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb: 17For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?"

This is the Day of The of God's wrath. At the 6th Seal. I mean, it's being clearly stated. lol. Just consider it.

 

[Mysteryman]

Quote NJB: "" At the 6th seal this is what is said:

" Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb: 17For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?"

This is the Day of The of God's wrath. At the 6th Seal. I mean, it's being clearly stated. lol. Just consider it."

Hi NJB

Yes, it does say that in the sixth seal. But look closer. Who said that it was the great day of his wrath is come ?

This is what they thought. They thought this was the wrath of God, but it wasn't ! IT was tribulation of God, but not the great tribulation. The sun became black as sackcloth and the moon turned to blood. This occured because of the events of the celestial bodies falling from the heavens. Read Rev. 7:3 where God tells the four angels that were given to hurt the earth, not to hurt the earth. < This is because the actual wrath of God does not occur until the seventh seal is opened. We can read this occurance in Rev. chapter 8. During the time frame of the seventh seal, is the actual wrath of God.

Prior to the sixth seal opening, which was at the end of the fifth seal, the saints are gathered up. The saints were in heaven and under the altar before the sixth seal was even opened.

IN Christ - MM

The seventh seal was not opened until chapter 8 and in verse one.

 

[NJBeliever]

Quote NJB: "" At the 6th seal this is what is said:

" Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb: 17For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?"

This is the Day of The of God's wrath. At the 6th Seal. I mean, it's being clearly stated. lol. Just consider it."

Hi NJB

Yes, it does say that in the sixth seal. But look closer. Who said that it was the great day of his wrath is come ?

This is what they thought. They thought this was the wrath of God, but it wasn't ! IT was tribulation of God, but not the great tribulation. The sun became black as sackcloth and the moon turned to blood. This occured because of the events of the celestial bodies falling from the heavens. Read Rev. 7:3 where God tells the four angels that were given to hurt the earth, not to hurt the earth. < This is because the actual wrath of God does not occur until the seventh seal is opened. We can read this occurance in Rev. chapter 8. During the time frame of the seventh seal, is the actual wrath of God.

Prior to the sixth seal opening, which was at the end of the fifth seal, the saints are gathered up. The saints were in heaven and under the altar before the sixth seal was even opened.

IN Christ - MM

The seventh seal was not opened until chapter 8 and in verse one.

So you're saying the people are being deceived? That does not jive with Joel 2:31 and Isaiah Chapter 2. If you just read Isaiah Chapter 2 it should be clear that the 6th Seal fulfills it. This is the start of the Day of The Lord. The people know it and that's why they proclaim it.

I AGREE that the trumpets and vials are the outpouring of God's wrath. But the sixth seal is when God rises to shake the Earth as prophesied. And I agree that that God tells the angels to hold on because He raptures the church before the outpouring. You are right there. but the 6th Seal is the signal that this has all begun (Joel 2:31).

 

[watchman F]

MM, because you declare something to be true does not make it so, God's word is truth, and God word says you are wrong.

 

[freeway]

MM, because you declare something to be true does not make it so, God's word is truth, and God word says you are wrong.

Well watchman the same could and should be said of you. just because you say/declare does not make it true, but whether prib/post, One fact Jesus is coming back, and I believe soon. I've read and read about the rapture prib and post alike. To me the prib just make more sense, the post leaves to many question. I believe a closer examination of the scriptures will result in a prib rapture. :yes

 

[Mysteryman]

Quote NJB: "" At the 6th seal this is what is said:

" Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb: 17For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?"

This is the Day of The of God's wrath. At the 6th Seal. I mean, it's being clearly stated. lol. Just consider it."

Hi NJB

Yes, it does say that in the sixth seal. But look closer. Who said that it was the great day of his wrath is come ?

This is what they thought. They thought this was the wrath of God, but it wasn't ! IT was tribulation of God, but not the great tribulation. The sun became black as sackcloth and the moon turned to blood. This occured because of the events of the celestial bodies falling from the heavens. Read Rev. 7:3 where God tells the four angels that were given to hurt the earth, not to hurt the earth. < This is because the actual wrath of God does not occur until the seventh seal is opened. We can read this occurance in Rev. chapter 8. During the time frame of the seventh seal, is the actual wrath of God.

Prior to the sixth seal opening, which was at the end of the fifth seal, the saints are gathered up. The saints were in heaven and under the altar before the sixth seal was even opened.

IN Christ - MM

The seventh seal was not opened until chapter 8 and in verse one.

So you're saying the people are being deceived? That does not jive with Joel 2:31 and Isaiah Chapter 2. If you just read Isaiah Chapter 2 it should be clear that the 6th Seal fulfills it. This is the start of the Day of The Lord. The people know it and that's why they proclaim it.

I AGREE that the trumpets and vials are the outpouring of God's wrath. But the sixth seal is when God rises to shake the Earth as prophesied. And I agree that that God tells the angels to hold on because He raptures the church before the outpouring. You are right there. but the 6th Seal is the signal that this has all begun (Joel 2:31).

Hi NJB

What I think we need to do, is slow down and find a point of reference. What is said in the book of Joel and what is said in the book of Revelation should always line up. Which would include what is said in chapter 12 of Rev. as well as anything said in the gospels as well as the church epistles.

If we start with the seals. And use them as a reference point. We see without any doubt, that the saints are in heaven under the altar before the sixth seal is opened. What occurs during the sixth seal lines up with what Joel says. Joel 2:31 states clearly -- "before" the great and the terrible day of the Lord". This lines up perfectly with the comments made of the sixth seal. So the sixth seal is not the wrath of God period. And Joel prophesied that it was not as well, since the sun turning to darkness and the moon to blood, is "before" the wrath of God !

Since the fifth seal is clear, that the saints are already in heaven and under the altar before the events of the sixth seal. Then the gathering up had to take place before the sixth seal was opened. During the sixth seal, we start to see the tribulation of God towards the earth and the inhabitants of the earth. The reason God is telling the four angels to wait, is because some things need to occur before God tells them to hurt the earth.

The sixth seal is a time of tribulation. Not only from God , but also from the evil of those of this earth. During the sixth seal, we have the 144000 virgins that are beheaded and the thousand year reign of Christ with them. (Not us)

We , the Christians have already been gathered up, as explained in the book of Thessalonians. We are not to be troubled, but have comfort, that we are not going to be a part of the tribulation. The sixth seal is the tribulation, but not the great tribulation (wrath of God). WE have been gathered up by Christ , the dead in Christ and all those who are alive at his coming in the clouds.

The second coming is during the seventh seal, during the wrath of God period. We the saints come back with Christ to this earth. Christ putting one foot on the land and his other foot on the sea.

The reason the period of time during the sixth seal is called the tribulation period, is because God starts to shake things up, and putting fear into those who are still here. These who are here on the earth are deceived , but not by God, as God has already revealed many things. They are decieved within their own minds, and only think that the events of the sixth seal are the great and terrible day of the Lord. As we can see , God has the four angels in place ready to go, to unleash His wrath. But God says not to hurth the earth just yet. But those here on earth have concluded in their own minds that these pre -events are that terrible day of the Lord.

See, everything must line up. And I know that I didn't go into great detail with this. But I wanted a starting point of reference, and thought that this would be the best way in which to look at this false belief that the -- pre trib is a fib.

Take care

IN Christ - MM

 

[watchman F]

MM, because you declare something to be true does not make it so, God's word is truth, and God word says you are wrong.

Well watchman the same could and should be said of you. just because you say/declare does not make it true, but whether prib/post, One fact Jesus is coming back, and I believe soon. I've read and read about the rapture prib and post alike. To me the prib just make more sense, the post leaves to many question. I believe a closer examination of the scriptures will result in a prib rapture. :yes

Actually you are wrong. Scripture overwhelmingly teaches that there is , but one 2nd coming of Christ and at that 2nd coming we will be caught up to meet the Lord in the air right after the dead are resurrected. I will post the scriptures if you would like but I have posted many on this thread already to which neither you or Mm, have even attempted to give a single verse in support of the pretrib fib.

 

[Mysteryman]

[quote="watchman F":1k0tk4bx]MM, because you declare something to be true does not make it so, God's word is truth, and God word says you are wrong.

Well watchman the same could and should be said of you. just because you say/declare does not make it true, but whether prib/post, One fact Jesus is coming back, and I believe soon. I've read and read about the rapture prib and post alike. To me the prib just make more sense, the post leaves to many question. I believe a closer examination of the scriptures will result in a prib rapture. :yes

Actually you are wrong. Scripture overwhelmingly teaches that there is , but one 2nd coming of Christ and at that 2nd coming we will be caught up to meet the Lord in the air right after the dead are resurrected. I will post the scriptures if you would like but I have posted many on this thread already to which neither you or Mm, have even attempted to give a single verse in support of the pretrib fib.[/quote:1k0tk4bx]

I would say that your understanding is incorrect, and here is why.

We are coming back with him, not going up at the second coming. This means we are coming down, not going up at the second coming. Before one can come down with, they must first go up !

The scriptures are clear, that upon his "return" we the saints come down with him.

I Thess 5:9 & 10 & 11

I Thess 4:13 & 14 & 15 & 16 & 17 & 18

I Thess 1:10

I Thess. 3:13 - "To the end he may stablish your hearts unblameeable in holiness before God, even our Father, at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ "with" all his saints"

Revelation 19:14 - "And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean"

Revelation 17:14 - "they that are with him are called, and chosen, and faitful" < The Saints !

 

[watchman F]

Actually you are wrong. Scripture overwhelmingly teaches that there is , but one 2nd coming of Christ and at that 2nd coming we will be caught up to meet the Lord in the air right after the dead are resurrected. I will post the scriptures if you would like but I have posted many on this thread already to which neither you or Mm, have even attempted to give a single verse in support of the pretrib fib.

I would say that your understanding is incorrect, and here is why.

We are coming back with him, not going up at the second coming. This means we are coming down, not going up at the second coming. Before one can come down with, they must first go up !

The scriptures are clear, that upon his "return" we the saints come down with him.

I Thess 5:9 & 10 & 11

I Thess 4:13 & 14 & 15 & 16 & 17 & 18

I Thess 1:10

I Thess. 3:13 - "To the end he may stablish your hearts unblameeable in holiness before God, even our Father, at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ "with" all his saints"

Revelation 19:14 - "And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean"

Revelation 17:14 - "they that are with him are called, and chosen, and faitful" < The Saints !

No wonder it took you so long to give scriptural support for your false belief, these scripture are as weak as you can get.

As far as 1st Thess 1:10, and 5:9 go we are not appointed to wrath.
1st Thessalonians 1:10 And to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead, even Jesus, which has delivered us from the wrath to come.
To get a pretrib view out of this verse you would first have to make two assumptions, neither of which are scriptural. #1 That the wrath to come is the tribulation, and # 2 that the deliverance from this wrath is the rapture. As for the first assumption, you can believe the wrath to come to be many things. You can believe it to be a seven year tribulation, you can believe it to be the three and a half years of great tribulation, you can believe it to be the judgment of God when He separates the sheep from the goats, you can believe that it is Hell, or the lake of fire. As for me, I believe it is the judgment of God, when Jesus destroys the wicked with fire, which occurs at the post trib second coming, and later in this book I will prove as much biblically. What you can not do is, arbitrarily proclaim that the wrath equals the seven year tribulation period. The second assumption, needed to be made is that the deliverance from the wrath is the rapture, which is completely false. The scripture says that He ''has delivered us'' from the wrath to come past tense, the rapture is still in the future. Therefore the only way scripture could possibly refer to the rapture is if it read, who ''will deliver us'' from the wrath to come future tense. Conclusion, both assumption are unbiblical. The wrath is the judgment of God upon the wicked and the deliverance is the death of Jesus on the cross. We are not delivered from the tribulation by the rapture, but from judgment by the cross. That is the true meaning of this verse.

1st Thessalonians 5:9 For God has not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ.
Once again to get the pretrib rapture from this verse you must assume that the wrath is the tribulation, and our salvation is the rapture. Our Salvation is Jesus Christ, not the rapture, and we are saved from Hell, not the tribulation. This verse has been grossly misrepresented by the pretrib supporters.
Let me ask this, if our salvation is from the tribulation, what about the tribulational saints? If they are saved by the same blood of Christ as we are, then why are they not ''raptured'' the moment of their salvations, why are they appointed to wrath? If we are not appointed to wrath then no believer of any age is appointed to wrath. It is obvious that this verse has nothing to do with the rapture, tribulation ect...

Now for your next two 1st Thess 3:13, and 4:13-18 these both prove post trib , not pre.
1st Thessalonians 3:13 To the end he may stabblish your hearts unblameable in holiness before God, even our Father, at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ with all his saints.
Notice when the end is, when Jesus returns. Also notice that it says Jesus will return with all His saints. This is impossible with a pretrib view. If Jesus raptures the righteous before the tribulation then return at the end of it with the raptured saints. The tribulational converts and ''Jewish saints'' would not be with Him. Therefore He would not be returning with all His saints. Although if He catches us up the righteous as he is returning with the dead in Christ as it say He will in 1st Thessalonians 4:14-17, to meet Him in the air, then come to earth with Him. He would be returning with all His saints.
1st Thessalonians 4:14-17
14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them that sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
16 For the Lord himself shall descend with a shout, with the voice of an arch angel, and with the trump of God: and the dead will rise first:
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air, and so we shall ever be with the Lord.
Verse 14 says that the dead in Christ are returning from heaven with Christ, and in verse 16 we see as He is returning their bodied rise from the grave to meet their souls, we know from 1st Corinthians 15:51-53 that this is when they receive their immortal bodies. Then we which are alive and remain are caught up to meet them in the air. The post trib view is the only view that would allow 1st Thessalonians 3:13 to be true (which we know it is because it is the word of God) after we are caught up, we immediately return from the air to earth with Christ. Then and only then would He be returning will all His saints. Further more we see in verse 15 of 1st Thess 4 that the rapture occurs at the coming of Christ which we know from Matthew 24:29-31, and Mark 13:24-27 takes place immediately after the Tribulation, not before it starts.

Now as far as you references in Revelation goes We know there will be a army coming with Christ form Heave and we know from 1st Thess 4:14 (posted above) that that army is the dead in Christ, not the previously raptured church, and Revelation 17:14 simply states that those who are with Christ when He defeats the anti christ are called chosen, and faith. That is now way would even hint at a pretrib scenario.


Well at least you tried, but sadly for you, your efforts have only strengthened my case and weakened yours.