The pretrib fib

[Mysteryman]

Hi Watchman

You have a dead soul theory , where dead souls go to heaven. And in your theory, you have dead souls meeting up with their immortal bodies at the return of Christ.

My souls' not going to die. Your might in the second death, but you would have to speak on that, as for me, my soul will not die.

HI

Its your choice, but again I see no scriptural reference that supports your theory . Maybe you might want to believe this theory of yours. But without any scriptural support, don't you think you are believing something that is not biblically based ?

Psalms 16:10 - "For thou wilt not leave my soul in the grave"

Psalms 22:29 - "All they that be fat upon earth shall eat and worship : all they that go down to the dust shall bow before him : and none can keep alive his own soul"

Psalms 23:3 - 'he restoreth my soul"

Psalms 30:3 - "O Lord, thou hast brought up my soul from the grave"

Psalms 33:19 - "To deliver my soul from death" - Verse 20 - "Our soul waiteth for the Lord"

Psalms 44:25 - "For our soul boweth down to the dust : our belly cleaveth unto the earth"

What do you not understand about what these verses are saying ?

 

[watchman F]

Hi Watchman

You have a dead soul theory , where dead souls go to heaven. And in your theory, you have dead souls meeting up with their immortal bodies at the return of Christ.

My souls' not going to die. Your might in the second death, but you would have to speak on that, as for me, my soul will not die.

HI

Its your choice, but again I see no scriptural reference that supports your theory . Maybe you might want to believe this theory of yours. But without any scriptural support, don't you think you are believing something that is not biblically based ?

Psalms 16:10 - "For thou wilt not leave my soul in the grave"

Psalms 22:29 - "All they that be fat upon earth shall eat and worship : all they that go down to the dust shall bow before him : and none can keep alive his own soul"

Psalms 23:3 - 'he restoreth my soul"

Psalms 30:3 - "O Lord, thou hast brought up my soul from the grave"

Psalms 33:19 - "To deliver my soul from death" - Verse 20 - "Our soul waiteth for the Lord"

Psalms 44:25 - "For our soul boweth down to the dust : our belly cleaveth unto the earth"

What do you not understand about what these verses are saying ?

I understand what they say, but apparently you do not.

Furthermore if you had any respect for me, this thread or this forum, you would have started your own thread about what a soul is instead of hijacking this one.

 

[Vic C.]

I have to go out and run a few errands, but when I come back, I'll post links to some recent threads on the subject of soul and spirit. :yes

 

[Mysteryman]

Psalms 16:10 - "For thou wilt not leave my soul in the grave"

Psalms 22:29 - "All they that be fat upon earth shall eat and worship : all they that go down to the dust shall bow before him : and none can keep alive his own soul"

Psalms 23:3 - 'he restoreth my soul"

Psalms 30:3 - "O Lord, thou hast brought up my soul from the grave"

Psalms 33:19 - "To deliver my soul from death" - Verse 20 - "Our soul waiteth for the Lord"

Psalms 44:25 - "For our soul boweth down to the dust : our belly cleaveth unto the earth"

What do you not understand about what these verses are saying ?I understand what they say, but apparently you do not.

Furthermore if you had any respect for me, this thread or this forum, you would have started your own thread about what a soul is instead of hijacking this one. < Quote in bold by Watchman

Hi Watchman

The problem is Watchman, is that you can not objectively explain your pre trib fib theory, if you do not believe , nor understand, that your soul dies when you die ! You can not present your theory in any logical manner with such a false premise.

Your theory was, that the dead soul at the gathering of the saints unto Christ is at the second coming. And that their dead souls are united with their immortal bodies at the second coming. You even call the soul here a "dead soul", and that this dead soul is somehow in heaven - how absurd this explanation has become within your explanations.

The truth is, is that your claim that pre trib is a fib, is an untruth and a fib !

You now claim that your soul will not die. So then, why do you claim that the soul you put in heaven , prior to the gathering, should be called a "dead soul" ? Don't you see that you are totally contradicting yourself ?

Your theory clings to this premise of a dead soul. And your theory clings to a false belief that the dead soul and the immortal body are going to unite. < From which you have provided no scriptural evidence of such a uniting of your dead soul and the immortal body.

How can anyone continue a logical conversation with you, if your beliefs are not based solidly upon the scriptures ? ? It seems obvious to me , anyways, that your beliefs are based from outside of scripture and not from within scripture. Most of us reading what you are sharing with us, would call your beliefs , just your religious beliefs based upon some denominational standard, or at the very least a christian's sect standard of beliefs.

The scriptures are clear, that when you die, your soul dies !

It was God who breathed into the first man Adam, what is called the "breath of life". Once this breath of life is over, you die, and your soul dies with you. Only God can refresh our soul's from death. And this will only happen at one of the two resurrections. One is corruptible putting on incorruption, or the other resurrection , which is mortal shall put on immortality. And these two resurrections take place at two different times within scripture.

Now this is the crux of your thread ! You claim that this takes place at the second coming. But scripture is clear, that it happens before the second coming !

I contend, that it happens at the end of the fifth seal, which is the fifth dispensation.

As you can see, I am staying totally on topic here.

Bless and Peace

IN Christ - MM

 

[NJBeliever]

ONce again you are confusing the day of The Lord with Christ's Second Coming. Here are some Biblical points regarding Christ's Second Coming.

1. The UNSAVED heathen armies, their leaders, the antichrist, false prophet and Satan are all going to travel to the valley of megido to wait for Christ to come.

2. The Euphrates river even supernaturally dries up to prepare away for leaders of the east to make it.

3. The satanic trinity release demons who go out to get the people of the world hyped up for the fight and draw them in.

4. Any Christian or anyone with a Bible can just read the trumpet and vial judgments and know the specific order of events.

5. Or they can just start counting 7 prophetic years from the time the Beastor False Prophet confirms a covenant with the people. Or count 3 1/2 years from the abomination of desolation.

The bible completely supports people knowing Christ is coming. Clearly the unbelieving world cannot be caught off guard because they are traveling the globe to go meet Him. And any believers who are alive during the trumpets and vials will be counting the minutes to His return or just reading in their Bibles and following along. Do you really think the points I listed above are false? They're all biblical and show that this is not the "thief in the night" situation.

It's very clear that Satan himself knows Christ is coming. And it's also clear you haven't spoken much with today's pagans and unbelieving, for they think our Faith is but a joke. They are NOT looking for Christ's coming at all. Those will be deceived by the times.

okay, with all due respect, this is not really a strong point. It doesn't matter what any non-believers think TODAY. The Bible makes it clear that ALL of the unbelieving world will worship the antichrist. Globally. So the spiritual situation in the endtime will be vastly different from today. Furthermore, we KNOW with 100% Biblical certainty that the leaders of the world and their armies join Satan, the beast and the false prophet in preparing for the Christ's Second Coming. So this point alone, makes it obvious that Christ is not coming to earth like a thief in the night here.

How would the coming of a false messiah almost... deceive Christ's elect? That false one would have to claim he is Christ, AND do a show of great miracle working to deceive with. That's specifically what the "another beast" of Rev.13:11 forward is to do in the last days. And Rev.11 points to the beast that ascends from the bottomless pit to kill God's "two witnesses" IN Jerusalem. Keep an eye on today's Jerusalem, for the non-believing Jews are ready to build another temple and start up animal sacrifices again. That's where false messiah will come, like Paul showed in 2 Thess.2, sitting in the temple of God, shewing himself to be God. The majority of the whole world will fall for it, as written. What's sad, is that falling away will include many Christian believers too, the metaphorical five foolish virgins who don't remain sober and watching the times and the seasons. Paul's message of the "another Jesus", with Satan disguised as an angel of light in 2 Cor.11, goes along with his warning in 2 Thess.2 about that false one.

I don't know how this is relevant to the 5 points I made. Points 2 and 3 are straight out of Scripture. They again show that there is preparation, gearing up and travel that all takes place just so the heathen armies can go await Christ to arrive at Megiddo. They know He's coming. It's so obvious.

My point 4 stated any Christian would definitely know Christ is coming and when. Why? Because it's all clearly detailed in the Bible. You can simply watch the trumpet and vial judgments happen in order and know 100% certainly that Christ is now coming. Even if you're not a Christian and you just happen to have a Bible to leaf through, you would still KNOW.

And of course my 5th point is that one can also just count 7 prophetic years from the confriming of the covenant by the antichrist. Do you think these 5 points are incorrect? They show, without doubt, that Christ's second coming is EXPECTED. You have completely misread scripture on the Day of The Lord and are missaplying it. That's all it comes down to dude. The verse in Rev 16 is just a warning to the reader. Christ is warning us to avoid having to go through all of this. That's the point. The Day of The Lord is the thief in the night event. Not the second coming, where MILLLIONS Of people are waiting for Christ. how can that be a "thief in the night"? When you have the world's armies geared up for the greatest battle of all time how can that be "when they say peace and safety"? It doesn't even make sense.

I think you need to go pray about it.

LOL. I think you just need to think about it. You're not even taking a logical position.

 

[NJBeliever]

And regarding the Last Trump -- You still have not explained to me why we don't see Christ return at the 7th Trump in Revelation??

It's not referring to that Trumpet. It's Rosh Hashanah, which as I said, is called the Last Trump. Christ is going to fulfill every feast. Do you agree that He fulfilled Passover?? What about Firstfruits, on the Day of HIs Resurrection? What about the Feast of Pentecost on the Day of Pentecost in Acts? Well guess what's next? Rosh Hashanah. And it just happens to be the one feast that no one knows the time or day of and has a specific "Last Trump" when the shofar is blown. This is what Paul meant. It's even called the Feast of Trumpets. And the purpose of the trumpets was to gather all the people together. It's a type and shadow of the rapture. You are just way off on this one.

 

[veteran]

okay, with all due respect, this is not really a strong point. It doesn't matter what any non-believers think TODAY. The Bible makes it clear that ALL of the unbelieving world will worship the antichrist. Globally. So the spiritual situation in the endtime will be vastly different from today. Furthermore, we KNOW with 100% Biblical certainty that the leaders of the world and their armies join Satan, the beast and the false prophet in preparing for the Christ's Second Coming. So this point alone, makes it obvious that Christ is not coming to earth like a thief in the night here.

Not just the unbelieving will fall for the "strong delusion" trap, many believers on Christ will too. That's what the "falling away" (apostasia) is about which Paul mentioned along with that false one coming to sit in the temple of God to show himself that he is God, and exalts himself above all that is worshipped. That's the events of Rev.13:11 forward about that "another beast" working, a religious working that sets up worship to the image of the beast. When our Lord Jesus gave the events in His Olivet Discourse, the very first event He mentioned was to not allow any man to deceive you (Matt.24:4; Mark 13:5). If you look closely with what Paul was saying in 2 Thess.2, you'll discover that's what he was warning also. Not only that, but Paul gave mention there to not be troubled even "by letter as from us", pointing out there were already false prophets among them trying to deceive them about the timing of Christ's coming and our gathering to Him.

When Christ DOES come, it will be no secret, and as written in Rev.1 every eye will see it. That will not be mistaken. The "thief in the night" metaphor is actually about the WHEN of His coming, the times and the seasons of His coming, for no man knows the day or hour when He comes, but only the season. THAT's what will take many by surprise like a thief breaking in at midnight. Only those who listen to our Lord in His Word, and are sealed against the coming deception, will be watching the times and season of Christ's coming. The rest will be deceived, which is what the "strong delusion" is about. There is going to be a grand lie presented to the world during the tribulation, and the majority will believe it, including believers who allow themselves to be deceived by the "mystery of iniquity" and that false one who is coming to put himself in place of Christ.

How would the coming of a false messiah almost... deceive Christ's elect? That false one would have to claim he is Christ, AND do a show of great miracle working to deceive with. That's specifically what the "another beast" of Rev.13:11 forward is to do in the last days. And Rev.11 points to the beast that ascends from the bottomless pit to kill God's "two witnesses" IN Jerusalem. Keep an eye on today's Jerusalem, for the non-believing Jews are ready to build another temple and start up animal sacrifices again. That's where false messiah will come, like Paul showed in 2 Thess.2, sitting in the temple of God, shewing himself to be God. The majority of the whole world will fall for it, as written. What's sad, is that falling away will include many Christian believers too, the metaphorical five foolish virgins who don't remain sober and watching the times and the seasons. Paul's message of the "another Jesus", with Satan disguised as an angel of light in 2 Cor.11, goes along with his warning in 2 Thess.2 about that false one.

I don't know how this is relevant to the 5 points I made. Points 2 and 3 are straight out of Scripture. They again show that there is preparation, gearing up and travel that all takes place just so the heathen armies can go await Christ to arrive at Megiddo. They know He's coming. It's so obvious.

Looks like you've omitted the "great tribulation" timing out of that, because the tribulation is not about the battles of Armageddon and Hamongog, for those happen to end... the tribulation upon the saints. I strongly suggest you closely study the events to occur just prior to the Armageddon events, because Satan's host is who will be in control on earth for the tribulation first, establishing the beast system and beast religious worship over all the earth. That's about the working of the 'pseudo Christ' (rendered "false Christs" in Matt.24:24 and Mark 13:22). That's the "great tribulation" our Lord was speaking of, and it happens prior to the Armageddon events.

My point 4 stated any Christian would definitely know Christ is coming and when. Why? Because it's all clearly detailed in the Bible. You can simply watch the trumpet and vial judgments happen in order and know 100% certainly that Christ is now coming. Even if you're not a Christian and you just happen to have a Bible to leaf through, you would still KNOW.

Many Churches today teach that Christ's coming is at just about every other time but on the seventh trumpet. Some even go backwards, and say He's coming on the sixth trumpet, when Scripture definitely does not support that. Some Churches don't teach the times and seasons leading up to Christ's coming at all, totally keeping their congregations in the dark! Many believers are not remaining spiritually sober and watching. The various Church organizations that do cover Revelation do so according to their particular organizational line and creeds, often putting the times and seasons out of order. So how can you say everyone knows 'when' Christ's coming is? Moreover, our Lord Jesus Himself said no man knows the day or hour of His coming, but The Father only (Matt.24:36).

And of course my 5th point is that one can also just count 7 prophetic years from the confriming of the covenant by the antichrist. Do you think these 5 points are incorrect? They show, without doubt, that Christ's second coming is EXPECTED. You have completely misread scripture on the Day of The Lord and are missaplying it. That's all it comes down to dude. The verse in Rev 16 is just a warning to the reader. Christ is warning us to avoid having to go through all of this. That's the point. The Day of The Lord is the thief in the night event. Not the second coming, where MILLLIONS Of people are waiting for Christ. how can that be a "thief in the night"? When you have the world's armies geared up for the greatest battle of all time how can that be "when they say peace and safety"? It doesn't even make sense.

Firstly, our Lord Jesus said He shortened the tribulation time for the sake of His elect (Matt.24:22). We can't rely on a strict 7 years tribulation period anymore, but only on the events He foretold. So yes, much in your 'five points' is incorrect, especially with the "thief in the night" and "day of the Lord" timing. You're saying what Paul taught in 1 Thess.5 about the time when they will say, "Peace and safety" doesn't make sense? I can grasp WHY you say that, because you're omitting the events that occur prior to the day of The Lord with Christ coming "as a thief". It's the things that are to occur during the "great tribulation" that will lead many into deception which will fool them about the times (like Rev.13:11 forward); that is why when Christ does return it will be a total surprise to them. They won't be expecting Him, for they will fall away to instead worship the false messiah who will already be on earth (Matt.24:23-26). They will think that false one is Christ; every religion will think he is God having returned. Like I said before, our Lord Jesus and His Apostles gave some very important spiritual metaphors that were to make understanding this very easy. It's what the ten virgins parable is about, and why Paul said he wants to present those in Christ to Him as a "chaste virgin" (2 Cor.11).

LOL. I think you just need to think about it. You're not even taking a logical position.

I think I've covered the matter pretty well with a multitude of Scripture evidence, especially the idea of why our Lord's coming will be "as a thief in the night" for even many believers. If you simply key on the Armageddon event, you'll miss understanding the events our Lord foretold us of the strongest time of deception and delusion ever to come upon the earth, which happens prior to Armageddon, and is what Paul was teaching about the time of "Peace and safety" in 1 Thess.5.

 

[NJBeliever]

okay, with all due respect, this is not really a strong point. It doesn't matter what any non-believers think TODAY. The Bible makes it clear that ALL of the unbelieving world will worship the antichrist. Globally. So the spiritual situation in the endtime will be vastly different from today. Furthermore, we KNOW with 100% Biblical certainty that the leaders of the world and their armies join Satan, the beast and the false prophet in preparing for the Christ's Second Coming. So this point alone, makes it obvious that Christ is not coming to earth like a thief in the night here.

Not just the unbelieving will fall for the "strong delusion" trap, many believers on Christ will too. That's what the "falling away" (apostasia) is about which Paul mentioned along with that false one coming to sit in the temple of God to show himself that he is God, and exalts himself above all that is worshipped. That's the events of Rev.13:11 forward about that "another beast" working, a religious working that sets up worship to the image of the beast. When our Lord Jesus gave the events in His Olivet Discourse, the very first event He mentioned was to not allow any man to deceive you (Matt.24:4; Mark 13:5). If you look closely with what Paul was saying in 2 Thess.2, you'll discover that's what he was warning also. Not only that, but Paul gave mention there to not be troubled even "by letter as from us", pointing out there were already false prophets among them trying to deceive them about the timing of Christ's coming and our gathering to Him.

[/quote]

Again, what is the relevance of this?? We know from Scripture that the antichrist, beast, Satan AND the armies of unbelievers will be recruited, start preparing and travel across the globe to go fight Jesus. They KNOW HE's COMING. That's the end of your whole rapture model. On that point alone. THEY KNOW. They're not surprised. They know the timing. How do I know this? Because when they gather Megiddo, Jesus finally appears.

Many Churches today teach that Christ's coming is at just about every other time but on the seventh trumpet. Some even go backwards, and say He's coming on the sixth trumpet, when Scripture definitely does not support that. Some Churches don't teach the times and seasons leading up to Christ's coming at all, totally keeping their congregations in the dark! Many believers are not remaining spiritually sober and watching. The various Church organizations that do cover Revelation do so according to their particular organizational line and creeds, often putting the times and seasons out of order. So how can you say everyone knows 'when' Christ's coming is? Moreover, our Lord Jesus Himself said no man knows the day or hour of His coming, but The Father only (Matt.24:36).

It doesn't matter what churches teach today. Once the events are actually happening, we'll all know the truth about the sequence. ANY Christian who is literate will be able to know exactly the order. These are going to be cataclysmic events. It's not going to be figure out.

Firstly, our Lord Jesus said He shortened the tribulation time for the sake of His elect (Matt.24:22). We can't rely on a strict 7 years tribulation period anymore, but only on the events He foretold. So yes, much in your 'five points' is incorrect, especially with the "thief in the night" and "day of the Lord" timing. You're saying what Paul taught in 1 Thess.5 about the time when they will say, "Peace and safety" doesn't make sense? I can grasp WHY you say that, because you're omitting the events that occur prior to the day of The Lord with Christ coming "as a thief". It's the things that are to occur during the "great tribulation" that will lead many into deception which will fool them about the times (like Rev.13:11 forward); that is why when Christ does return it will be a total surprise to them. They won't be expecting Him, for they will fall away to instead worship the false messiah who will already be on earth (Matt.24:23-26). They will think that false one is Christ; every religion will think he is God having returned. Like I said before, our Lord Jesus and His Apostles gave some very important spiritual metaphors that were to make understanding this very easy. It's what the ten virgins parable is about, and why Paul said he wants to present those in Christ to Him as a "chaste virgin" (2 Cor.11).

Somehow, the entire world preparing for war and all mouting and up and traveling to one area, is "peace and safety" to you. Again, it just makes no sense. You incorrectly think Christ comes at the 7th trumpet. Look at the trumpets right beforehand. What is peaceful about that?? The earth is going through massive destruction during the trumpet judgments. Yet you think the 7th trumpet is "sudden destruction"??? It doesn't even make sense, logicially.

We have gone back and forth now enough. You have just misunderstood the Day of The Lord. I know you disagree but if you seriously believe that the 6th seal is not fulfilling Isaiah chapter 2 (and is thus, the start of the day of The Lord), then we just seriously interpret the bible differently. Christ doesn't appear at the 7th trumpet in the BIble, yet you claim he does. The world is ready for war at Megiddo, yet you call it peace and safety. And they know Christ is coming, yet you call it a "thief in the night situation." We just read and interpret the Bible very differently.

 

[veteran]

Somehow, the entire world preparing for war and all mouting and up and traveling to one area, is "peace and safety" to you. Again, it just makes no sense. You incorrectly think Christ comes at the 7th trumpet. Look at the trumpets right beforehand. What is peaceful about that?? The earth is going through massive destruction during the trumpet judgments. Yet you think the 7th trumpet is "sudden destruction"??? It doesn't even make sense, logicially.

We have gone back and forth now enough. You have just misunderstood the Day of The Lord. I know you disagree but if you seriously believe that the 6th seal is not fulfilling Isaiah chapter 2 (and is thus, the start of the day of The Lord), then we just seriously interpret the bible differently. Christ doesn't appear at the 7th trumpet in the BIble, yet you claim he does. The world is ready for war at Megiddo, yet you call it peace and safety. And they know Christ is coming, yet you call it a "thief in the night situation." We just read and interpret the Bible very differently.

I don't know where you get that idea of the whole world traveling to one area from, it's not written in God's Word. The Ezekiel 38 chapter is very specific what nations and peoples will come upon Israel at the very end, which is when God will step in to stop that great army that comes out of the north quarters upon Israel. That army is going to come upon Israel to destroy, and will think they can do it, so they won't be simply going to meet Christ. They won't even know He's coming to destroy that great army. And the events going on in the world today is about establishing world peace, i.e., that idea Paul taught in 1 Thess.5 about "Peace and safety" deceived people will be saying prior to the time of "sudden destruction."

The "great tribulation" timing is before that event anyway, and the "Peace and safety" event Apostle Paul was speaking of is tribulation timing, not Armageddon timing. You're confused obviously. I figured you were a believing Christian, so I thought you might be interested in that "Peace and safety" event Paul was teaching, along with a better understanding of what the tribulation is about per God's Word. Guess I was wrong in thinking you were interested in that part of God's Word. It's apparent now that you're not.

 

[NJBeliever]

I don't know where you get that idea of the whole world traveling to one area from, it's not written in God's Word. The Ezekiel 38 chapter is very specific what nations and peoples will come upon Israel at the very end, which is when God will step in to stop that great army that comes out of the north quarters upon Israel. That army is going to come upon Israel to destroy, and will think they can do it, so they won't be simply going to meet Christ. They won't even know He's coming to destroy that great army. And the events going on in the world today is about establishing world peace, i.e., that idea Paul taught in 1 Thess.5 about "Peace and safety" deceived people will be saying prior to the time of "sudden destruction."

The "great tribulation" timing is before that event anyway, and the "Peace and safety" event Apostle Paul was speaking of is tribulation timing, not Armageddon timing. You're confused obviously. I figured you were a believing Christian, so I thought you might be interested in that "Peace and safety" event Paul was teaching, along with a better understanding of what the tribulation is about per God's Word. Guess I was wrong in thinking you were interested in that part of God's Word. It's apparent now that you're not.

LOL! When it doubt, just try to personally insult me. Paul says peace and safety precedes the Day of The Lord. YOU say that DOTL = the Second Coming, which would mean Peace and safety has to precede Aramgeddon since that is when Christ Comes back to Earth. That is yet another reason why your rapture model completely fails. You are misinterpreting the events. The Day of The Lord commences at the 6th Seal. As I've said many times, the 6th Seal is the fulfillment of Isaiah 2, which IS the Day of The Lord.

Dude, like I said, we just differ VASTLY in how we interpret the Bible. The Day of The Lord is not the Second Coming. The 7th Trumpertis not the "Last Trump" (which I still am stunned that you say this), it's the Feast of Trumpets. Now you're saying Gog/Magog is Amrageddon, even though those are 2 different events. Wow. We are just miles apart.

 

[veteran]

LOL! When it doubt, just try to personally insult me. Paul says peace and safety precedes the Day of The Lord. YOU say that DOTL = the Second Coming, which would mean Peace and safety has to precede Aramgeddon since that is when Christ Comes back to Earth. That is yet another reason why your rapture model completely fails. You are misinterpreting the events. The Day of The Lord commences at the 6th Seal. As I've said many times, the 6th Seal is the fulfillment of Isaiah 2, which IS the Day of The Lord.

Dude, like I said, we just differ VASTLY in how we interpret the Bible. The Day of The Lord is not the Second Coming. The 7th Trumpertis not the "Last Trump" (which I still am stunned that you say this), it's the Feast of Trumpets. Now you're saying Gog/Magog is Amrageddon, even though those are 2 different events. Wow. We are just miles apart.

The "day of the Lord" IS when Christ's coming is, as the 1 Thess.5; 2 Peter 3:10, and Rev.16:15 Scriptures solidly reveal. That "Peace and safety" period DOES precede Armageddon. Armageddon is the "sudden destruction" Paul was saying that comes after the "Peace and safety". Armageddon is the event Christ told His servants to be watching for when armies surround Jerusalem in final, to look up, that their Salvation was near (Luke 21). The event of Ezek.38, that great army coming out of the north quarters also is Armageddon timing. Armageddon and Hamongog happen at the same time, the war that Christ fights at His coming with His army of angels. I'm surprised you're not aware of all those related events. Ezekiel 40 forward starts Milennium timing.

 

[Cornelius]

1Th 1:10 and to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead, even Jesus, who delivereth us from the wrath to come.

Amen !
We , the wrath comes after the tribulation.

Joe 3:14 Multitudes, multitudes in the valley of decision! for the day of Jehovah (WRATH) is near in the valley of decision.
Joe 3:15 The sun and the moon are darkened, and the stars withdraw their shining.
Joe 3:16 And Jehovah will roar from Zion, and utter his voice from Jerusalem; and the heavens and the earth shall shake: but Jehovah will be a refuge unto his people, and a stronghold to the children of Israel. Amen. All those who believe in God's protection will be safe inside Christ.

Joe 2:10 The earth quaketh before them; the heavens tremble; the sun and the moon are darkened, and the stars withdraw their shining.
Joe 2:11 And Jehovah uttereth his voice before his army; for his camp is very great; for he is strong that executeth his word; for the day of Jehovah (WRATH) is great and very terrible; and who can abide it?

Now here is another scripture that talks about the wrath (not the tribulation)

Isa 13:10 For the stars of heaven and the constellations thereof shall not give their light; the sun shall be darkened (Same day as in the other verses: the WRATH ) in its going forth, and the moon shall not cause its light to shine.
Isa 13:11 And I will punish the world for their evil, and the wicked for their iniquity: and I will cause the arrogancy of the proud to cease, and will lay low the haughtiness of the terrible.
Isa 13:12 I will make a man more rare than fine gold, even a man than the pure gold of Ophir.
Isa 13:13 Therefore I will make the heavens to tremble, and the earth shall be shaken out of its place, in the wrath of Jehovah of hosts, and in the day of his fierce anger.

So now we do not have opinion of Cornelius but we have the Word of God that tells us that the "day of the LOrd" is indeed the WRATH ]of God.



Lets look again at WHEN the sun and moon are darkened. We have to look for the same words "day of the Lord" which is the wrath of God (not the tribulation as we shall see) We find it very clearly written (for those who have eyes to see) in the New Testament.Here is the same event and we are told it happens AFTER the tribulation, but BEFORE the wrath.

People can read this for themselves and KNOW when it will be :

Mat 24:29 But immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

Cool, so we now know that it happens AFTER the tribulation !


Now lets look for the "day of the Lord" (WRATH) . Here it is !Act 2:20 The sun shall be turned into darkness, And the moon into blood, Before the day of the Lord come, That great and notable day.


Now people, those of you who cannot understand this and cannot see this, are willingly playing dumb.You love your doctrine more than you love the Word of God.

So when is Jesus coming for His people?

Mat 24:29 But immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
Mat 24:30 and then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.Mat 24:31 And he shall send forth his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

So get ready, we are going into the tribulation , even if we do not believe it.


Immediately AFTER the tribulation, but before the wrath.

 

[Cornelius]

So we can legally substitute the word "wrath" for "the day of the Lord" , because Isaiah tells us this is indeed so.

Act 2:20 The sun shall be turned into darkness, And the moon into blood, Before the wrath of Jehovah come, That great and notable day.

 

[Cornelius]

Seeing that we have now established beyond a shadow of a doubt that the wrath indeed comes after the tribulation, we now also know when the rapture will occure:

Mat 24:29 But immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
Mat 24:30 and then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
Mat 24:31 And he shall send forth his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

See? It so simple when we just READ the Bible. But as soon as we add our doctrines it becomes confusing and complicated ,because we have to twist the scripture to try and make them say what we want them to say.

The Bible is not complicated........our doctrines are.

 

[NJBeliever]

So we can legally substitute the word "wrath" for "the day of the Lord" , because Isaiah tells us this is indeed so.

Act 2:20 The sun shall be turned into darkness, And the moon into blood, Before the wrath of Jehovah come, That great and notable day.

You have quoted Acts 2:20 twice yet you don't cite when it's actually fulfilled.

If you did, then you'd know when the Day of The Lord actually starts.

 

[watchman F]

Seeing that we have now established beyond a shadow of a doubt that the wrath indeed comes after the tribulation, we now also know when the rapture will occure:

Mat 24:29 But immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
Mat 24:30 and then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
Mat 24:31 And he shall send forth his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

See? It so simple when we just READ the Bible. But as soon as we add our doctrines it becomes confusing and complicated ,because we have to twist the scripture to try and make them say what we want them to say.

The Bible is not complicated........our doctrines are.

Amen Cornelius, the wrath is after the Tribulation and so is the rapture. You demonstrated this truth very nicely.

 

[watchman F]

So we can legally substitute the word "wrath" for "the day of the Lord" , because Isaiah tells us this is indeed so.

Act 2:20 The sun shall be turned into darkness, And the moon into blood, Before the wrath of Jehovah come, That great and notable day.

You have quoted Acts 2:20 twice yet you don't cite when it's actually fulfilled.

If you did, then you'd know when the Day of The Lord actually starts.

The day of the Lord start and ends the day of Christ post trib 2nd coming. The are many things that will be fulfilled that day including the resurrection of the just, rapture of the living saints and the wrath upon the wicked, andm more. However the day of the Lord is just that a day.

 

[veteran]

That's pretty much what I've been saying all along, both Christ's coming and His wrath are after... the tribulation. It's Christ's coming which specifically ends... the tribulation by the false one per 2 Thess.2:8, Christ coming to "consume" that Wicked one "with the spirit of His mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of His coming."

Where I differ with some is with the pre-wrath position. I don't believe His wrath comes after we're gathered, but within the same timeframe. In John 5 Jesus showed the resurrection of the unjust happens at the same time as the resurrection of the just. In 1 Cor.15, I believe Paul was saying all still alive on earth will be changed at the twinkling of an eye, not only those in Christ, that being the resurrection timing our Lord taught in John 5:28-29.

Isa 25:4-9
4 For Thou hast been a strength to the poor, a strength to the needy in his distress, a refuge from the storm, a shadow from the heat, when the blast of the terrible ones is as a storm against the wall.
5 Thou shalt bring down the noise of strangers, as the heat in a dry place; even the heat with the shadow of a cloud: the branch of the terrible ones shall be brought low.
6 And in this mountain shall the LORD of hosts make unto all people a feast of fat things, a feast of wines on the lees, of fat things full of marrow, of wines on the lees well refined.
7 And He will destroy in this mountain the face of the covering cast over all people, and the vail that is spread over all nations.
8 He will swallow up death in victory; and the Lord GOD will wipe away tears from off all faces; and the rebuke of His people shall He take away from off all the earth: for the LORD hath spoken it.
9 And it shall be said in that day, Lo, this is our God; we have waited for Him, and He will save us: this is the LORD; we have waited for Him, we will be glad and rejoice in His salvation.
(KJV)


Ezek 13:4-5
4 O Israel, thy prophets are like the foxes in the deserts.
5 Ye have not gone up into the gaps, neither made up the hedge for the house of Israel to stand in the battle in the day of the LORD.
(KJV)

Zech 14:1-5
1 Behold, the day of the LORD cometh, and thy spoil shall be divided in the midst of thee.
2 For I will gather all nations against Jerusalem to battle; and the city shall be taken, and the houses rifled, and the women ravished; and half of the city shall go forth into captivity, and the residue of the people shall not be cut off from the city.
3 Then shall the LORD go forth, and fight against those nations, as when he fought in the day of battle.
4 And His feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, and there shall be a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south.
5 And ye shall flee to the valley of the mountains; for the valley of the mountains shall reach unto Azal: yea, ye shall flee, like as ye fled from before the earthquake in the days of Uzziah king of Judah: and the LORD my God shall come, and all the saints with Thee.
(KJV)

God gathers the nations against Jerusalem to battle, and the city is taken, then Christ comes to fight against them and His feet touch down on the Mount of Olives to form that great valley; and then the saints who remain are gathered to Him there by fleeing to that valley. His feet touching down and the forming of that great valley is before our gathering. The saints with Christ when He forms that valley will be those who died in Christ He brings with Him, the ones Paul said we shall not precede ("prevent") in 1 Thess.4.

 

[NJBeliever]

So we can legally substitute the word "wrath" for "the day of the Lord" , because Isaiah tells us this is indeed so.

Act 2:20 The sun shall be turned into darkness, And the moon into blood, Before the wrath of Jehovah come, That great and notable day.

You have quoted Acts 2:20 twice yet you don't cite when it's actually fulfilled.

If you did, then you'd know when the Day of The Lord actually starts.

The day of the Lord start and ends the day of Christ post trib 2nd coming. The are many things that will be fulfilled that day including the resurrection of the just, rapture of the living saints and the wrath upon the wicked, andm more. However the day of the Lord is just that a day.

This is wrong. The Day of The Lord is not Christ's Second Coming. You just need to study the OId Testament. I have already posted and shown that Isaiah 2 is fulfilled at the 6th seal. That is the Day of The Lord. And I am still waiting for someone to show that that is not the case.

 

[watchman F]

You have quoted Acts 2:20 twice yet you don't cite when it's actually fulfilled.

If you did, then you'd know when the Day of The Lord actually starts.

The day of the Lord start and ends the day of Christ post trib 2nd coming. The are many things that will be fulfilled that day including the resurrection of the just, rapture of the living saints and the wrath upon the wicked, andm more. However the day of the Lord is just that a day.

This is wrong. The Day of The Lord is not Christ's Second Coming.

You believe as you wish, I will believe the Bible.