The problem with the born again doctrine

[GodsGrace]

What?
Look don't worry about it

I agree with you that it should be our concern.
Jesus said to go into the world and proclaim what He taught.
If WE don't do this...who will?
Disciples make new disciples....

 

[Christ the King]

It's ok I don't want to make anyone angry with questions about something i don't really understand.
It probably doesn't apply to me anyway

 

[GodsGrace]

The biggest problem with the born again doctrine I feel is false converts
I did touch on this among other things but it was never addressed
A person cannot be sure if they are saved. I find people claiming to be saved when their actions and words say otherwise.

There will always be false converts,,,with or without the born again doctrine. The CC also believes in being born again, and I don't mean in baptism. I mean when the person is an adult and they come to believe in God and wish to serve Him and not the enemy.
These are the only two roads one can take...there is no middle ground. Jesus said that if we are not with Him, we are against Him.
Luke 9:50

A person CAN be sure they are saved IF they are at the foot of the cross and serving God. They can know they are saved right now...and it will be up to them to keep saved till the end...it can be a matter of the will. God will not turn away those that stayed faithful till the end.
Colossians 1:22-23

And, yes, it is actions that can mark a believer. Jesus said that we will know the tree by its fruit. He cursed the fig tree on the way to Jerusalem, probably on Tuesday of Holy Week on His way from Bethany to Jerusalem. (from Martha and Mary's home where He most probably slept with the Apostles).

Faith brings fruit. If there is no fruit...there is probably a false "religious" belief but no real faith.

We should not judge who is saved or not....but there certainly are signs so that we could, maybe, help along those that need to come to a faith belief.

Some save their Christianity for one hour on Sunday and then all returns to normal. This is not Christianity,,,this is not discipleship.

Liberal Christianity is creeping in. We see Christians that support abortion, gay marriage and many other heretical views.
Can a person be saved if they support abortion?

I believe that a new or immature Christian can believe this for a while. They might bring their beliefs with them when they become Christian...but I believe that, in time, they must come to understand that the above life-styles are wrong and this must be accepted. However, it is not up to us to decide if believing any of the above causes one to be lost. This is up to God as only HE knows our heart and the reason for our beliefs. IOW, we can judge the action,,,but we cannot judge the soul.

What exactly defines a born again event? The lack of detail or authority leaves way too much to the subjective opinion of people to decide weather or not an event was real and not just imagination, hallucination, fantasy, dream, an epiphany, a deception by the evil one, a feeling, a thought, etc

Some people won't have a clear defining moment of enlightenment they can be sure of, they have many small ones instead
I can identify a particular moment in my life that was the most enlightening but im not sure if that means im saved

I think we've discussed this before.
If a person is worried about being saved...it usually means they are. The lost are not concerned about being saved.

There are two ways one can come to be saved:
By a "born again event" as you've stated.
By a pure will of the person to serve God.

One can be instantaneous and one can take some time...
but they both will reach the same end....
Jesus said that one must be born twice...or born again.
John 3:3, 5 One must be born of the spirit...our spirit must communicate with God's spirit - this is being born again.
Romans 8:16
John 4:24

With the RCC they are the authority that tells us we are saved. U guys may not like the RCC and i admit it has many things that appear to be incorrect but they have more things that are better. Its authority means everyone is one the same page, people aren't left to interpret things on their own. Without such authority we see so many interpretations leading to so many divisions

Sorry for making this critique but i feel it is sending countless people down a false path

What exactly do you think the wrong path is?

The CC cannot tell you if you are born again or not.
People that sin and go to confession and then continue living a sinful life because they could confess are not doing God's will.
A priest will not absolve someone that is not contrite...but who says they are not?? Absolution only works IF one is contrite...so that is a false sense of security too.

The CC is just starting now to proclaim the pure word of God.
I remember when I was a young lass, we'd be told that if we went to church and confessed our sins we'd be saved. This is not really taught anymore,,,but many catholics that do not strive to learn their faith still believe the old teachings.

 

[JohnDB]

I remember when it was all about the Franciscans and the Jesuits all fighting and arguing amongst each other...each claiming that the other was betraying Jesus...

 

[JohnDB]

It's ok I don't want to make anyone angry with questions about something i don't really understand.
It probably doesn't apply to me anyway

Questions don't make us angry. Its good to discuss things. Which is what we are doing. Everyone gets to share and learn this way.

 

[Christ the King]

Questions don't make us angry. Its good to discuss things. Which is what we are doing. Everyone gets to share and learn this way.

"I clearly remember a story out of the Old Testament about David having a census. Everyone was angry about it because David shouldn't have counted/measured/ weighed God's people. Which is what you appear to be saying that someone should do.
Probably not a good idea."

"This is our modern culture.
Everyone has a right to express who they are and how they are, and no one should judge them or criticise them."

"how do i know if another person is saved? - i don't know for sure - their behavior may indicate they are not saved but i don't know their heart so it's none of my business deciding who is saved or not - it's God's business"

"So what concern is that of yours?
Are you their Judge?"

"It is NOT your job to MAKE them believe; that is between them and God"

Im just walking away from this conversation, it's not worth it

Why ur even encouraging me to do this only God knows but im not interested ok

 

[PeterJens]

The biggest problem with the born again doctrine I feel is false converts
I did touch on this among other things but it was never addressed
A person cannot be sure if they are saved. I find people claiming to be saved when their actions and words say otherwise.

Liberal Christianity is creeping in. We see Christians that support abortion, gay marriage and many other heretical views.
Can a person be saved if they support abortion?

What exactly defines a born again event? The lack of detail or authority leaves way too much to the subjective opinion of people to decide weather or not an event was real and not just imagination, hallucination, fantasy, dream, an epiphany, a deception by the evil one, a feeling, a thought, etc

Some people won't have a clear defining moment of enlightenment they can be sure of, they have many small ones instead
I can identify a particular moment in my life that was the most enlightening but im not sure if that means im saved

With the RCC they are the authority that tells us we are saved. U guys may not like the RCC and i admit it has many things that appear to be incorrect but they have more things that are better. Its authority means everyone is one the same page, people aren't left to interpret things on their own. Without such authority we see so many interpretations leading to so many divisions

Sorry for making this critique but i feel it is sending countless people down a false path

As a teenager going to an open brethren church, being born again seemed more about a doctrinal set of beliefs than a life style.

Part of the issue is faith leads to change which leads to Godly action. Often you will find people ascent to faith, but have not actually met Jesus but go along with the group identity and being a "nice person".

Most churches will want to encourage people to continue contact and will pray the word goes into their hearts and bears fruit. If churches stop have confrontational sermons, calling people to repentance and faith, making a stand, having a step of confession and faith, then opportunities are missed.

Some churches with an emphasis of spiritual experience and accepting one is in the Kingdom without repentance, they intentionally avoid looking for change, expecting it or preaching it. The whole latter Rain group, NAR etc fall into this group.

I go to a church that is evangelical yet the pastor would hold to some beliefs in common with NAR but not fully. This level of confusion creates some very strange compromises and beliefs.

When I was first going to church I remember seeing this young man to whom faith was everything yet their life seemed to be stationary. I realise now the driving issues in their life were not touched by their faith, rather it was just the right thing to do. Until it reached into their heart and changed them, they would be stuck in a halfway house, not knowing what they felt or where they wanted to go, just they were where they were and believed what they believed.

 

[JLB]

No no no that's not what I said at all.

Im going to try one last time to explain what is happening in the most simplest way I can.

A lot of people think they are saved when their not

Allowing people to discern weather or not they are saved produces a plethora of false converts.

It looks to me like people are avoiding this
If no one addresses it then im giving up on it

I thought I did address it.

The way we know we are saved, which means the way we know if the Creator of the universe is now residing within our spirit, is...

The Holy Spirit bears witness with our spirit that we are indeed a child of the living God.



For you did not receive the spirit of bondage again to fear, but you received the Spirit of adoption by whom we cry out, “Abba, Father.” The Spirit Himself bears witness with our spirit that we are children of God, Romans 8:15-16



JLB

 

[GodsGrace]

It's ok I don't want to make anyone angry with questions about something i don't really understand.
It probably doesn't apply to me anyway

No one is angry and you shouldn't give up so easily.
We each understand an O.P. in our own way and will respond accordingly. If someone doesn't understand what I'm asking...I just keep asking.
:wink

 

[GodsGrace]

As a teenager going to an open brethren church, being born again seemed more about a doctrinal set of beliefs than a life style.

Part of the issue is faith leads to change which leads to Godly action. Often you will find people ascent to faith, but have not actually met Jesus but go along with the group identity and being a "nice person".

Most churches will want to encourage people to continue contact and will pray the word goes into their hearts and bears fruit. If churches stop have confrontational sermons, calling people to repentance and faith, making a stand, having a step of confession and faith, then opportunities are missed.

Some churches with an emphasis of spiritual experience and accepting one is in the Kingdom without repentance, they intentionally avoid looking for change, expecting it or preaching it. The whole latter Rain group, NAR etc fall into this group.

I go to a church that is evangelical yet the pastor would hold to some beliefs in common with NAR but not fully. This level of confusion creates some very strange compromises and beliefs.

When I was first going to church I remember seeing this young man to whom faith was everything yet their life seemed to be stationary. I realise now the driving issues in their life were not touched by their faith, rather it was just the right thing to do. Until it reached into their heart and changed them, they would be stuck in a halfway house, not knowing what they felt or where they wanted to go, just they were where they were and believed what they believed.

Agreed on all...
but what is NAR?

 

[PeterJens]

Agreed on all...
but what is NAR?

New Apostolic Reformation.
Latter rain theology where the church will rise to rule society ushering in the millennium rule. They have a seven mountain ministry view and follow close shepherding, where apostles rule, literally.
Often the self appointed apostles felt they were God's super apostles, some believing they are eternal, lol. Each generation of these guys find when they die things were not actually like this...... sad, and nuts ......

 

[PeterJens]

Funnily me objecting to these apostles means I am not their friends. Unfortunately these guys are hyper grace, no repentance, 3rd heaven, healing is God's way, sickness is evil, etc. no love, just the spirit.
Many fellowships love the optimism, but domination by sinners is nuts. Some have reported if you object to the approach, you are thrown out of the fellowship as the enemy.
This may now be more historical with the death and disgrace of key people.

 

[GodsGrace]

Funnily me objecting to these apostles means I am not their friends. Unfortunately these guys are hyper grace, no repentance, 3rd heaven, healing is God's way, sickness is evil, etc. no love, just the spirit.
Many fellowships love the optimism, but domination by sinners is nuts. Some have reported if you object to the approach, you are thrown out of the fellowship as the enemy.
This may now be more historical with the death and disgrace of key people.

Wow...also to the previous post.
So much I don't know!
Whatever happened to simple Christianity?
Do we need another reformation??!
Christianity was so simple in the beginning....
You have to love the early church....
no complications.
Know God
Trust Jesus
Live a good life.

 

[JLB]

I remember when it was all about the Franciscans and the Jesuits all fighting and arguing amongst each other.

Wow, you are older than I thought.

 

[JLB]

where apostles rule, literally.

Sounds like the doctrine of the Nicolatians.

Where the leadership are served by the laity.



JLB

 

[Christ the King]

No one is angry and you shouldn't give up so easily.
We each understand an O.P. in our own way and will respond accordingly. If someone doesn't understand what I'm asking...I just keep asking.
:wink

Thanks for your explanation. Its not that i gave up easily.

Last week mods accused me of being judgmental in a post among other things.

Several people in this thread had called me judgmental. And so, not wanting a repeat of last weeks events I just bailed on the topic altogether

 

[Susannah]

There are a lot of people on this forum. They all have a right, as you do, to form their own opinion, just like the people who translate the scripture from the original Aramaic. So I want to point out that when you say something negative someone on this board is going to get their feelings hurt. When you said, "Liberals are creeping in," I was offended. The word creeping made me feel like some kind of bug taking over the house." I am a liberal Christian because they are the only ones who really know how to love their neighbor despite their differences. This is the most important commandment according to the scriptures. God bless you. . . . Oh, by the way, I was born for the first time on September 15, 1948 from my mothers womb, in 1998 at my baptism, and one more time by the Holy Spirit in 2005. Halleujah.

 

[Christ the King]

There are a lot of people on this forum. They all have a right, as you do, to form their own opinion, just like the people who translate the scripture from the original Aramaic. So I want to point out that when you say something negative someone on this board is going to get their feelings hurt. When you said, "Liberals are creeping in," I was offended. The word creeping made me feel like some kind of bug taking over the house." I am a liberal Christian because they are the only ones who really know how to love their neighbor despite their differences. This is the most important commandment according to the scriptures. God bless you. . . . Oh, by the way, I was born for the first time on September 15, 1948 from my mothers womb, in 1998 at my baptism, and one more time by the Holy Spirit in 2005. Halleujah.

Im sorry if u got offended. I also sit left of center on the political spectrum but view the democrats as extreme left with an ideology that doesn't align with Christianity.

To be fair take a look at the context.
The paragraph is about Christians who support abortion and gay marriage. They are both ideals of the far left, the current liberals.

Soo, I dunno

 

[GodsGrace]

There are a lot of people on this forum. They all have a right, as you do, to form their own opinion, just like the people who translate the scripture from the original Aramaic. So I want to point out that when you say something negative someone on this board is going to get their feelings hurt. When you said, "Liberals are creeping in," I was offended. The word creeping made me feel like some kind of bug taking over the house." I am a liberal Christian because they are the only ones who really know how to love their neighbor despite their differences. This is the most important commandment according to the scriptures. God bless you. . . . Oh, by the way, I was born for the first time on September 15, 1948 from my mothers womb, in 1998 at my baptism, and one more time by the Holy Spirit in 2005. Halleujah.

This is also for Christ the King

Susannah...you did what you accused the other of doing.
You said that you were offended at the statement that liberal Christians are creeping into the church.

Then you went on to say:
I am a liberal Christian because they are the only ones who really know how to love their neighbor despite their differences.
(highlighted above by me).

So...I am NOT a liberal Christian.
Does this mean I don't love my neighbor despite our differences?

You see, we can all fall into the trap.
The other member asked a legitimate question.
Some had a knee-jerk reaction about judging others.
Actually, we must judge others or how would we know about sin?
Can I not know if a friend of mine is sinning? This does not mean I need to take action - I may prefer not to.

I'm just saying that I see nothing judgmentel in what the other member wrote in his O.P.

It's all a matter of opinion.

And, BTW, I do believe Liberal Christianity is creeping into our churches. This does NOT mean that one cannot be a liberal and be Christian...it just means, as the O.P. stated...that being Christian and being for abortion (for example) is rather strange!

The knee-jerk reactions were not referring to you.

 

[GodsGrace]

Thanks for your explanation. Its not that i gave up easily.

Last week mods accused me of being judgmental in a post among other things.

Several people in this thread had called me judgmental. And so, not wanting a repeat of last weeks events I just bailed on the topic altogether

Understood.