The Process Of Justification

[Kidron]

The just shall live by faith.

Exactly.... ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

The Justified shall live forever with God, by the Faith that God accepts, as He has applied Grace in the form of the free gift of imputed righteousness, that was purchased on behalf of the Believer by the finished work of Jesus's sacrifice on the Cross.
This happens instantly and only once as you can only be born again once, it lasts an eternity, and cant be lost or given back based on your behavioral issues.

 

[childeye]

Exactly.... ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

The Justified shall live forever with God, by the Faith that God accepts, as He has applied Grace in the form of the free gift of imputed righteousness, that was purchased on behalf of the Believer by the finished work of Jesus's sacrifice on the Cross.
This happens instantly and only once as you can only be born again once, it lasts an eternity, and cant be lost or given back based on your behavioral issues.

I believe the rebirth is a living Spirit deposited within us, which quickens what was already there, but had been corrupted unto death. I therefore believe that this Spirit of Truth, guides us and corrects our behavioral issues, by revealing the lies we were believing that are the very source of our behavioral issues, which corrupted us unto death. John 8:32.

And I am certain that all we need do is, believe God is good, and this is our faith. And this faith is made concrete in our conviction through Christ's cross, that God is a person, Whose Love is such, that He would sacrifice Himself to save us.

So I'll say it again, because it is well worth repeating over and over.
Therefore we who believe, are justified, even because Christ believes we are worth dying for. From faith to faith. The just shall live by faith.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

"Abraham was also justified in Gen. 17, right before he got circumcised. My friend, Jethro Bodine pointed out to me, on another thread, that Romans 4:18-22 refers to Gen. 17, not Gen. 15, as I had always thought.

No, you decided that what I said was that Abraham was justified in Genesis 17.
I said his obedience to be circumcised in Genesis 17 was the sign of the justification he already had.
He had already been declared righteous back in Genesis 15:6. Paul says his obedience to get circumcised is the sign of that righteousness, not the making of it.

“FAITH WAS CREDITED TO ABRAHAM AS RIGHTEOUSNESS.” 10 How then was it credited? While he was circumcised, or uncircumcised? Not while circumcised, but while uncircumcised." (Romans 4:9-10 NASB caps in orig., bold and underline mine)

"he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness of the faith which he had while uncircumcised" (Romans 4:11 NASB bold and underline mine)

See? His faith was credited as righteousness while he was uncircumcised, that is, before he was circumcised, before Genesis 17. So he is not being re-justified at his circumcision. Paul says he was already justified at his circumcision. He says his obedience to be circumcised is the sign of the righteousness he already had.

Hopefully, now there will be no misunderstanding of what I said....which is simply what Paul himself said in plain words.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

you can only be born again once

Right. God does not allow someone to receive spiritual life a second time after they have lost it the first time they received it (Hebrews 6:4-6).

...it lasts an eternity...

Yep. Eternal life is indeed everlasting.
Someone no longer possessing the life that lasts forever does not determine the fact that the life to come will never end. It simply means you no longer possess the life that will never end.

A car that runs forever doesn't stop running forever just because you don't possess it anymore. A lottery ticket worth a lifetime of regular income does not stop being worth a lifetime of regular income just because you don't possess it anymore.

...and cant be lost or given back based on your behavioral issues.

Right. It can be lost because of unbelief, not works.

 

[dadof10]

No, you decided that what I said was that Abraham was justified in Genesis 17.

Read it again. All I said was "My friend, Jethro Bodine pointed out to me, on another thread, that Romans 4:18-22 refers to Gen. 17, not Gen. 15, as I had always thought." I didn't "decide" you said anything, only that you pointed out Rom. 4 referred to Gen. 17 and not Gen. 15, as I had always thought.

I said his obedience to be circumcised in Genesis 17 was the sign of the justification he already had.
He had already been declared righteous back in Genesis 15:6. Paul says his obedience to get circumcised is the sign of that righteousness, not the making of it.

“FAITH WAS CREDITED TO ABRAHAM AS RIGHTEOUSNESS.” 10 How then was it credited? While he was circumcised, or uncircumcised? Not while circumcised, but while uncircumcised." (Romans 4:9-10 NASB caps in orig., bold and underline mine)

"he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness of the faith which he had while uncircumcised" (Romans 4:11 NASB bold and underline mine)

See? His faith was credited as righteousness while he was uncircumcised, that is, before he was circumcised, before Genesis 17.

Everything Paul describes in Rom. 4:18-21 happened before he was circumcised too. Please read that again because it is critical to understanding what Paul is saying here. Abraham "against hope believed in hope, that he might become the father of many nations" before he was circumcised. He "staggered not at the promise of God through unbelief; but was strong in faith, giving glory to God; And being fully persuaded that, what he had promised, he was able also to perform" before he was circumcised. See? Your point is moot.

So he is not being re-justified at his circumcision.

Right. He was re-justified before he was circumcised. According to Paul, this happened right before, in Gen. 17.

Paul says he was already justified at his circumcision.

Right, twice before. Once a while before, in Gen. 15, and again right before in Gen. 17.

He says his obedience to be circumcised is the sign of the righteousness he already had.

Already had both in Gen. 15 and Gen. 17 before he was circumcised.

Hopefully, now there will be no misunderstanding of what I said....which is simply what Paul himself said in plain words.

Nope, no misunderstanding on my part, just your misunderstanding of what Paul is saying here. If Abraham wasn't justified in Gen. 17, why does Paul say that he was?

"And therefore it was imputed to him for righteousness." (v.22)

 

[Kidron]

Right.


Someone no longer possessing the life that lasts forever does not determine the fact that the life to come will never end. It simply means you no longer possess the life that will never end.

Listen, your bible says this........" And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption."" Eph 4:30

Now, notice that after you are warned about grieving, the HS< you are not told...."because if you do, you go straight to Hell".

And you know why your bible does not say it,?...its because you cant undo the "SEALED".
It cant be undone.
And you cant be unborn again in the Spirit realm, any more then you can become not born in the flesh after you are born.

It is impossible for a Christian to lose the indwelling Christ, as we have become "bone of his bone and flesh of his flesh".
Do you really not understand that we as Christians are CHRIST'S BODY?
This is not SYMBOLIC.

And like i stated previously,.......God, who saves, knows what we are going to do after we are saved, and so, if a person is going to, as you say, get rid of their salvation, then God would not SAVE THEM, as to do it would be STUPID, and He is not stupid.
So, this is another reason that your Hebrew obsession is not going to cast a Christian into the pit.


K

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Read it again. All I said was "My friend, Jethro Bodine pointed out to me, on another thread, that Romans 4:18-22 refers to Gen. 17, not Gen. 15, as I had always thought." I didn't "decide" you said anything, only that you pointed out Rom. 4 referred to Gen. 17 and not Gen. 15, as I had always thought.

In a previous post you did decide that I was saying Abraham was re-justified in Genesis 17.
I had been meaning to correct you about that.

Listen, your bible says this........" And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption."" Eph 4:30

Now, notice that after you are warned about grieving, the HS< you are not told...."because if you do, you go straight to Hell".

And you know why your bible does not say it,?...its because you cant undo the "SEALED".
It cant be undone.

Oh, that's right, 'sealed' means by definition 'not able to be unsealed'.

You are protected and sealed by the Holy Spirit for the Day of Salvation through your faith:
5 who are protected by the power of God through faith for a salvation ready to be revealed in the last time." (1 Peter 1:5 NASB)

Stop having faith and you are no longer have the protection of God's power that faith secured. [/QUOTE]

 

[childeye]

In a previous post you did decide that I was saying Abraham was re-justified in Genesis 17.
I had been meaning to correct you about that.


Oh, that's right, 'sealed' means by definition 'not able to be unsealed'.

You are protected and sealed by the Holy Spirit for the Day of Salvation through your faith:
5 who are protected by the power of God through faith for a salvation ready to be revealed in the last time." (1 Peter 1:5 NASB)

Stop having faith and you are no longer have the protection of God's power that faith secured.

I think the issue for me would then be how does a person stop having faith. Allow me to frame the question in this manner. Is this a free choice to believe God is good, and then believe that God is evil, and back again, simply as a persons prerogative? Or is there a such thing as a true Love for God that can never be defeated, because it is incorruptible?

 

[Kidron]

Oh, that's right, 'sealed' means by definition 'not able to be unsealed'.
Stop having faith and you are no longer have the protection of God's power that faith secured.

[/QUOTE]


First,
if there is a scripture that tells you that you can lose the Holy spirit, then post it, as this would prove you can be "unsealed".
good luck with that.
try any bible version.

second...
You are trusting faith to save you., according to your concept that your faith is "saving you" if you dont lose your "faith".
Im trusting the blood atonement that covered my sins, gave me eternal life, and sealed the Holy Spirit in me....to save me.
My INITIAL faith, that God accepted forever, caused all this to happen instantly, and not over time as a process.
This is why "born again" is not a process.

also..
Did you ever wonder why the OT says that "Abraham believed and it was counted to him for righteousness", and yet the OT and the NT never said...."and as long as he holds on to his faith he can stay saved-righteous-justified-redeemed, etc ......."
There is a reason for that omission, that you might try to discover.

 

[smaller]

I think the issue for me would then be how does a person stop having faith. Allow me to frame the question in this manner. Is this a free choice to believe God is good, and then believe that God is evil, and back again, simply as a persons prerogative? Or is there a such thing as a true Love for God that can never be defeated, because it is incorruptible?

If we don't believe that God's Intentions are not just "good" but Perfect, there would be little use in belief. And, IF He Is Perfect, which I believe to be the case, only Perfection Himself can bring about a Perfect End Result.

If we can't trust Perfection, who can we trust? Certainly none else. Abraham certainly didn't justify himself nor did Abraham get or have The Divine Power to perfect any of us.

Revelation 4:11
Thou art worthy, O Lord, to receive glory and honour and power: for thou hast created all things, and for thy pleasure they are and were created.

 

[childeye]

If we don't believe that God's Intentions are not just "good" but Perfect, there would be little use in belief. And, IF He Is Perfect, which I believe to be the case, only Perfection Himself can bring about a Perfect End Result.

If we can't trust Perfection, who can we trust? Certainly none else. Abraham certainly didn't justify himself nor did Abraham get or have The Divine Power to perfect any of us.

Revelation 4:11
Thou art worthy, O Lord, to receive glory and honour and power: for thou hast created all things, and for thy pleasure they are and were created.

But perfection is a conundrum which is why all things are built upon faith. I could argue that Love is better seen in the embracing of what would be determined as ugly, lowly and despised, and not in that which embraces what is perfect. But in a semantic turn of inferences, it could be said that such a Love that embraces the lowly, is perfection.

We can therefore expect that God would have forbearance and grace upon those lesser than Himself in deserved Glory. But what about mankind? Can there be a Love for God in the created being that is an incorruptible Love for God? It is a valid question as pertains to eternal matters. Does man Love God with all their hearts minds and souls by power of a will that is also able to freely not Love God? That would be an equivocation in my view, since it allows in the mind the presence of corruptibility in that which is at the same time deemed incorruptible.

Therefore, if there is an incorruptible Love for God that exists in the created being. I would think it would be a higher power that moves a man's will and that man could neither stop it nor deny it.

 

[smaller]

But perfection is a conundrum

When I speak of Perfection, with a capital P, it means God in all His Fullness. And no, none of us know the entirety of Him, and probably never will, nor do I expect that to transpire until we are "made" One, by Him. There are simply no constructs or words that are capable of "us" conveying ourselves into that position. I might term it a "One Way Street."

We all see or perceive Him in our subjective senses only, meaning in most cases, severely "limited." I do ask God to remove my own blindness quite often. It's more of a question of "how much of Him" can we really take?

Malachi 3:2
But who may abide the day of his coming? and who shall stand when he appeareth? for he is like a refiner's fire, and like fullers' soap:

 

[dadof10]

In a previous post you did decide that I was saying Abraham was re-justified in Genesis 17.
I had been meaning to correct you about that.

Ok. Consider me corrected. Any other comments on my previous post, or is that it?

 

[dadof10]

Did you know that you are essentially asking me if someone who believes God is good, can change their mind and believe God is not good? That is equivocating. I don't believe that, and I don't see how you could either. In my mind, no one would ever actually be justified if that were the case, and therefore Christ died in vain.

Since I don't believe you nor I can change our minds that Christ was full of Love, I think you must mean that our faith does endure trials, tribulations, and persecutions. I view these as a means by which the enemy of God uses to try to dissuade our conviction that God is good. I don't see it as God trying to test us.

For example, look at Job. Satan is convinced Job will curse God, if God brings upon Job the destruction of all his wealth, and also affliction upon his own flesh. I feel that Satan is in fact projecting his own sentiments upon Job. But God is convinced Job will not curse Him, even because Job does not Love Him for the things that God gives him nor does he value his flesh over God. In the end God is proven right, even because it is true what God believes, and not true what Satan believes. Therefore we who believe are justified even because Christ believes we are worth dying for.

This issue is therefore also applicable in how a person discerns the bread and the wine, the body and blood of Christ.

Do you believe that Abraham was re-justified in Gen. 15 and 17?

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Any other comments on my previous post, or is that it?

Don't go anywhere. I'll be back, maybe later today.

 

[childeye]

Do you believe that Abraham was re-justified in Gen. 15 and 17?

I think Abraham never needed to be justified even once.

 

[dadof10]

Don't go anywhere. I'll be back, maybe later today.

Waiting with baited breath (whatever that actually means).

 

[smaller]

I think Abraham never needed to be justified even once.

Abraham showed us many deeply spiritual matters. From his own "flesh" loins, he produced, by the Promise of God, a promised son, and this was figurative of Christ. It is also figurative of this:

Philippians 3:21
Who shall change our vile body, that it may be fashioned like unto his glorious body, according to the working whereby he is able even to subdue all things unto himself.

In Isaac, we can see the Promise of the Son, in a figure. IN Ishmael, we see the son of the flesh, even from Abraham, that would not inherit. These two pictures go hand in hand to this:

Gal. 4:
29 But as then he that was born after the flesh persecuted him that was born after the Spirit, even so it is now.

And to this:

Galatians 5:
17 For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would.

And to this:

1 Cor. 15:
46 Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual.
47 The first man is of the earth, earthy; the second man is the Lord from heaven.
48 As is the earthy, such are they also that are earthy: and as is the heavenly, such are they also that are heavenly.
49 And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.

These are amazingly beautiful pictures, in my sight.

Was the natural man, Abraham, and different than us as it pertains to our flesh, our natural man? No. Abraham knew what was coming.

Change, from the Promise of God Himself.

 

[turnorburn]

In this thread you've created are you trying to say we are justified by our works?

tob

 

[dadof10]

I think Abraham never needed to be justified even once.

Sigh...Ok, I'll try and stay on this merry-go-round as long as I can. Do you think the following Scripture means he WAS justified?

"For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God.
For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness." (Rom. 4:2-3 KJV)