So you agree that the only way to be justified is by obedience, the obedience of faith.
JLB
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The Process Of Justification
- Thread starter dadof10
- Start date
So you agree that the only way to be justified is by obedience, the obedience of faith.
JLB
Abraham was declared righteous by God, when he offered Isaac...
Definition
to declare, pronounce, one to be just, righteous, or such as he ought to be
JLB
Jethro Bodine
Member
In the context of James' letter, I agree that the only way to show yourself righteous (be justified) is to act righteously:
7 Little children, make sure no one deceives you; the one who practices righteousness is righteous, just as He is righteous; 8 the one who practices sin is of the devil" (1 John 3:7 NASB)
"show me your faith without the works, and I will show you my faith by my works.” (James 2:18 NASB)
And in the context of Paul's letter, I agree that the only way to become righteous (be justified) is to have your sins forgiven through faith in the blood of Christ. Faith does that all by itself:
"24 being justified as a gift by His grace through the redemption which is in Christ; 25 whom God displayed publicly as a propitiation in His blood through faith." (Romans 3:24-25 NASB)
"5 to the one who does not work, but believes in Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is credited as righteousness, 6 just as David also speaks of the blessing on the man to whom God credits righteousness apart from works" (Romans 4:5-6 NASB)
You must be justified in regard to both definitions of the word 'justified'--the definition Paul uses, and the definition James uses--in order to be saved on the Day of Wrath. Until people start understanding the difference between 'salvation' and 'justification'; and understand that, Biblically, the word 'justified' has two distinct definitions*(see link below) this misguided argument between the two extremes of Catholic works and Protestant's dead faith will continue to the very end of time. Catholics will die thinking they become righteous through their works, and Protestants will die thinking they are righteous in their dead faith.
* https://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/lexicon/lexicon.cfm?Strongs=G1344&t=KJV (click on the 'Vine's Expository Dictionary' link)
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Jethro Bodine
Member
Your application of the wrong definition of 'justified' is evident by the context of James' letter, which is that of showing oneself to be righteous, not making oneself to be righteous:
"show me your faith without the works, and I will show you my faith by my works.”" (James 2:18 NASB bold mine)
Simply put, Paul's justification is the justification of the ungodly--that is, becoming righteous, through faith. While James' justification is the justification of the righteous.--showing one to already be righteous, through what they do.
Jethro Bodine
Member
Yes, I was justified and sanctified when I had faith. The blood is applied through faith. Stop having the faith that put the blood on the altar on my behalf in the first place and you no longer have the blood that is applied by faith:
"26 For if we go on sinning willfully after receiving the knowledge of the truth (because of falling back into unbelief), there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins"
What sacrifice is there for the once sanctified person who rejects the only sacrifice for sin there is? None, of course. Jesus' blood is not on the altar in heaven ministering on the behalf of those who reject the blood. There will be no justified and saved unbelievers in the kingdom as your doctrine says there will be.
Jethro Bodine
Member
You really need to start preaching the whole gospel. Here's the part you always leave out after declaring the victory of fallen flesh over the believer:
3 For what the Law could not do, weak as it was through the flesh, God did: sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh and as an offering for sin, He condemned sin in the flesh, 4 so that the requirement of the Law might be fulfilled in us, who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit." (Romans 8:3-4 NASB italics in original)
Unless Paul and Jesus are liars, God NEVER intended that his people be doomed to live in type 3 soil (Matthew 13:22 NASB). Through Christ and the giving of the Holy Spirit we are delivered from the destiny of fallen flesh and can look with hope, in faith, to one day bringing forth the fruit of soil #4:
23“And the one on whom seed was sown on the good soil, this is the man who hears the word and understands it; who indeed bears fruit and brings forth, some a hundredfold, some sixty, and some thirty.” (Matthew 13:23 NASB)
Your doctrine is devoid of this hope and faith. It has resigned itself to the condition of fallen flesh without he who 'rescues us from this body of death' (Romans 7:24). Your gospel says that can never happen and that Jesus does not know what he's talking about. Your's is a message of failure and defeat and lack of faith.
You have to stop thinking soil #4 means 'holier than thou' and start giving God the credit for being able to bring his people to fruitfulness. Let's stop judging people as being self righteous just because they are entering into the fruitfulness of #4 soil while we languish in type 3 soil (if that be the case). Gee, maybe if we stopped being judgmental that way we could start being type 4 soil. Ever thought of that?
The simple fact remains, that if Abraham, would not have obeyed God, to offer Isaac on the altar,
He would not have been declared righteous.
Just as he would not be declared righteous, the righteousness of faith, if he did not obey God, to get out and go.... When God called him and gave him a promise based on his obedience, leaving us an example who would come after him, to obey the Gospel and receive the promise of the Spirit.
It is only the corresponding action of faith obedience that produces a divine result.
Example:
And suddenly, a woman who had a flow of blood for twelve years came from behind and touched the hem of His garment. 21 For she said to herself, “If only I may touch His garment, I shall be made well.” 22 But Jesus turned around, and when He saw her He said, “Be of good cheer, daughter; your faith has made you well.” And the woman was made well from that hour. Matthew 9:20-22
If the woman with the flow of blood only believed in her heart that Jesus would heal her, without making the effort to touch the hem of His garment, would she have been healed?
The answer of course is no.
The divine result manifested by the corresponding action of the obedience of faith.
JLB
The way an ungodly sinner is declared righteous is by obeying the Gospel command to Repent.
This is to turn to God and confess Jesus as Lord.
18 to open their eyes, in order to turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan to God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins and an inheritance among those who are sanctified by faith in Me. Acts 26:18
The way to receive the forgiveness of sins, is by turning from Satan as lord to Jesus and confessing Him as Lord.
It may be something as simple as the cry from a broken heart that says.... Lord Jesus save me, I'm a sinner.
JLB
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Jethro Bodine
Member
And I'm arguing with this how?
If Abraham did not obey God in the offering up of Isaac there is no way he could be justified as to showing himself to be righteous. By definition, that's what a righteous person has to do in order to be recognized by God as being righteous--you have to do something righteous. So of course Abraham could not show himself righteous (be justified) if he had not offered Isaac up.
We know Abraham was not made righteous by his faith prior to Genesis 15:6. How? Because since God says he was made righteous by his faith in Genesis 15:6, and we know it is unnecessary to be made righteous once you have been made righteous, we know his faith did not make him righteous in Genesis 12:4. There would be no need to duplicate it again there in Genesis 15:6.
I have lots of evidences of faith prior to the actual moment I was made righteous by God (born again). But none of them made me righteous. That came later. And there's no reason to be made righteous all over again now that I have been made righteous. And if I did need to be made righteous again because of apostasy that would be impossible since we know God will not do that for a person. Once they lose their justification it's gone forever.
smaller
Member
There is a substantial difference between "reigning over sin" in the mortal body and falling into lying hypocrisy by claiming we have no sin, (1 John 1:8) or that it's not of the devil, (1 John 3:8).
Paul left some "honest" marks when pointing out the factual contrariness that exists between the Spirit and the flesh. Gal. 5:17. Has this even received a mere mention here as it pertains to justification and righteousness?
How can that which is contrary to and against the Spirit be justified or righteous?
Fraid so Jethro. That which is contrary and against the Spirit is a scriptural fact for everyone.
Neither Paul nor Jesus promised anyone a sinless life in their flesh. And we do very much have an adversary to contend with therein, which for some odd reason believers tend to forget about and discard over time, falsely thinking themselves exempt, and the "entirety" of themselves as justified and righteous when that isn't even possible.
Romans 8:10
And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.
The "dead flesh" body does not become alive Spiritually or sinless, post salvation. It's accounted for what it is. Flesh, subject to the intrusions of the tempter which can never be justified or righteous.
We all bear this "contrariness." And the examples of this contrariness are exponentially evident, particularly in those who can't see the obvious.
The flesh always seeks "spiritual and inspiring messages" to justify itself and make itself righteous. It's a futile quest. The flesh never has listened to the facts of the Spirit, and can not listen, because what the Spirit has to say is not "friendly" to the flesh.
smaller
Member
If anyone believed James, literally, that he was justified by "works" there would be a line of christians several million deep waiting to tie their sons to an altar and offer them to God. So, instead of that, they take on a myriad of personally derived "alternative sacrifice" methods.
James 2:
21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?
22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?
But few see that it was belief by faith in God wherein righteousness was "imputed."
23 And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.
Is it going to be each persons personally concocted "alternative sacrifice methods" that save them, or belief by faith in the sacrifice of God's Own Son?
Abraham received the sacrifice of Gods Son, by A FIGURE. An allegory of Jesus in Isaac.
Hebrews 11:
18 Of whom it was said, That in Isaac shall thy seed be called:
19 Accounting that God was able to raise him up, even from the dead; from whence also he received him in a figure.
This shows that no one except God's Own Son was capable of being "that sacrifice."
IF our body is dead, because of indwelling sin, is THAT "our personal sacrifice?" NO! It is a body in which dwells sin, incapable of satisfactory sacrifice. It is only the Spirit of Christ therein, that is redeemed, justified, righteous.
The Spirit of Christ dwells, by faith, in "dead flesh." Dead flesh is that, regardless of what it claims to be. And it is so dead because of the presence of sin and the temptations of the tempter in the flesh. Which makes the "need" for Christ even more vivified.
Colossians 3:3
For ye are dead, and your life is hid with Christ in God.
There will never be any method of making dead flesh justified or righteous. It simply can't happen, and never has, for any sinner. We all walk in "contrariness" which is rather self evident.
Galatians 5:17
For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would.
The flesh can not submit to this fact, and will instead, seek to justify itself and claim it is righteous every single time, rather than submit to the TRUTH that it is contrary to the Spirit.
Genesis 6:3
And the Lord said, My spirit shall not always strive with man, for that he also is flesh: yet his days shall be an hundred and twenty years.
God has numbered our "days" being bound with this contrariness and the factual 'strife' that exists.
James 2:
21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?
22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?
But few see that it was belief by faith in God wherein righteousness was "imputed."
23 And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.
Is it going to be each persons personally concocted "alternative sacrifice methods" that save them, or belief by faith in the sacrifice of God's Own Son?
Abraham received the sacrifice of Gods Son, by A FIGURE. An allegory of Jesus in Isaac.
Hebrews 11:
18 Of whom it was said, That in Isaac shall thy seed be called:
19 Accounting that God was able to raise him up, even from the dead; from whence also he received him in a figure.
This shows that no one except God's Own Son was capable of being "that sacrifice."
IF our body is dead, because of indwelling sin, is THAT "our personal sacrifice?" NO! It is a body in which dwells sin, incapable of satisfactory sacrifice. It is only the Spirit of Christ therein, that is redeemed, justified, righteous.
The Spirit of Christ dwells, by faith, in "dead flesh." Dead flesh is that, regardless of what it claims to be. And it is so dead because of the presence of sin and the temptations of the tempter in the flesh. Which makes the "need" for Christ even more vivified.
Colossians 3:3
For ye are dead, and your life is hid with Christ in God.
There will never be any method of making dead flesh justified or righteous. It simply can't happen, and never has, for any sinner. We all walk in "contrariness" which is rather self evident.
Galatians 5:17
For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would.
The flesh can not submit to this fact, and will instead, seek to justify itself and claim it is righteous every single time, rather than submit to the TRUTH that it is contrary to the Spirit.
Genesis 6:3
And the Lord said, My spirit shall not always strive with man, for that he also is flesh: yet his days shall be an hundred and twenty years.
God has numbered our "days" being bound with this contrariness and the factual 'strife' that exists.
Justifying the righteous?
James teaches the principle of obedience, concerning faith.
Faith for salvation. That's the context.
14 What does it profit, my brethren, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can faith save him? 15 If a brother or sister is naked and destitute of daily food, 16 and one of you says to them, “Depart in peace, be warmed and filled,” but you do not give them the things which are needed for the body, what does it profit? 17 Thus also faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead.
18 But someone will say, “You have faith, and I have works.” Show me your faith without your works, and I will show you my faith by my works. 19 You believe that there is one God. You do well. Even the demons believe—and tremble! 20 But do you want to know, O foolish man, that faith without works is dead?21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered Isaac his son on the altar? 22 Do you see that faith was working together with his works, and by works faith was made perfect? 23 And the Scripture was fulfilled which says, “Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.” And he was called the friend of God. 24 You see then that a man is justified by works, and not by faith only.
25 Likewise, was not Rahab the harlot also justified by works when she received the messengers and sent them out another way?
26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also. James 2:14-26
- Faith for salvation is incomplete, and dead, without the corresponding act of obedience.
...to open their eyes, in order to turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan to God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins and an inheritance among those who are sanctified by faith in Me.’
- Faith for healing, is incomplete and dead without the corresponding act of obedience.
- Faith for deliverance, is incomplete and dead without the corresponding act of obedience.
And she answered and said to Him, “Yes, Lord, yet even the little dogs under the table eat from the children’s crumbs.”
Then He said to her, “For this saying go your way; the demon has gone out of your daughter.” Mark 7:27-29
The principle of faith requires the action of obedience for it to be complete, and able to produce a divine result.
Just as a body without the spirit is dead and unable to function, so faith without the corresponding act of obedience is dead, being incomplete and unable to produce a divine result.
JLB
Kidron
Member
A good way to think of it, to get the light, is to think of it like this...
Had Abraham not believed but offered Isaac anyway, would this have been accepted by God?
So, This gets to the core issue of a certain kind of Faith that God accepts.
Jesus used a parable of sowing seeds, and you are given examples of the difference between heart faith and head faith.
Head faith, acknowledges and will go along, whereas heart faith BELIEVES.
And what is the difference?
The difference is TRUST.......as real faith is trust.
The heart TRUSTS, whereas the head believes but it does not trust, as the head is analytical and skeptical.
So saving faith, is to TRUST, and this is separate from just believing.
Many people believe that Jesus is real, that he died on a cross, but they dont TRUST Him.
Real faith is TRUST., and not just a mental ascension that acknowledges.
Thus, Abraham TRUSTED, and that is FAITH that God accepts.
Faith is TRUST, and this is a condition of the heart and not the head.
So, the reason that Abraham was willing to obey, was because he TRUSTED, and in that instant he was accepted because of his trust that the bible names as Faith.
Following this Trust, he did works, but God had already justified him based on his Trust.
Drew
Member
You are right, and this idea that Romans 7 describes the state of the believer has to be continually refuted (seemingly):
1. The person in Romans 7 is characterized as hopelessly enslaved to sin!!!: For we know that the Law is spiritual, but I am of flesh, sold into bondage to sin. [Romans 7:14, NASB]. At this point, I simply have to shake my head in disbelief. This one statement by Paul ends the argument - it simply contradicts a basket full of texts to suggest that a Christian would remain in bondage to sin. How can one possibly believe this?
2. The person in Romans 8 is clearly a Christian, yet Paul also makes it clear that this person is the same person in Romans 7 after they have been delivered from the Romans 7 position:
(i). The person described in Romans 7 is experiencing a "law" of sin that leads to death:but I see another law at work in the members of my body, waging war against the law of my mind and making me a prisoner of the law of sin at work within my members. 24What a wretched man I am! Who will rescue me from this body of death? [Romans 7:23-24, NASB]
(ii). The Christian in Romans 8 is described as having been set free from from this law of sin and death.
2because through Christ Jesus the law of the Spirit of life set me free from the law of sin and death [Romans 8:2, NASB]
(iii). If the position that the person in Romans 7 is a Christian is correct, - then we have the following statements:
a. The Christian is subject to the law of sin that produces death (clear statement from Romans 7)
b. The Christian is set free from the law of sin that produces death (clear statement from Romans 8)
These statements are inconsistent. Therefore, assuming we agree that the statement from Romans 8 is about the Christian, the Romans 7 cannot be descriptive of the experience of the Christian - one cannot be both subject to the effects of a law and yet also released from its effect.
Jethro Bodine
Member
Who does that?
Jethro Bodine
Member
We get it smaller.......no one's soil can produce the fruit of the kingdom. We get it.
smaller
Member
What makes you think the Seed failed in any case of planting?
11 Now the parable is this: The seed is the word of God.
Jethro Bodine
Member
Because of what you teach here. You call anyone who thinks they have #4 type soil a lying hypocrite as if it's impossible to attain to that which Jesus spoke about because of the power of evil dwelling in every believer.
smaller
Member
What makes you think anyone is any particular soil? Any "good and honest" heart would more than likely relate to "all" of those conditions, start to finish.
John 15:5
I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.