The Process Of Justification

[dadof10]

What's this suppose to mean?

Instead of drawing conclusions FROM Scripture then basing your doctrine on that, you bring your man-made doctrine into your reading,

What man made doctrine i haven't offered any doctrine..

tob

Not here, but in the past you have.

 

[dadof10]

You call it drive by i call it life, i opened with a question but you refuse to answer..

"Why are you trying to make this a point, how does that effect us?"

tob

OK, let's see how this goes. I believe that a person has to have obedient faith in order to be justified. If a person (you or I) stops having an obedient faith, we cease to be justified. Some people think it doesn't matter whether we continue in obedient faith, justification is a one time event that can never be lost, not a process. Those who think that way are wrong. Scripture teaches that justification is a process and we must continue in obedient faith or we are in danger of losing our justification. Good enough? OK. Please go ahead and tell me whether you think Abraham was justified more than once and your reason for thinking that way.

 

[ezra]

{ I believe that a person has to have obedient faith in order to be justified. } i disagree with you. in fact your definition of justification is wrong... what i will agree with is we should be obedient in faith, if i have misunderstood your post. please correct me .but your definition of justification i found alarming

Question: "What is justification? What does it mean to be justified?"

Answer: Simply put, to justify is to declare righteous, to make one right with God. Justification is God’s declaring those who receive Christ to be righteous, based on Christ’s righteousness being imputed to the accounts of those who receive Christ (2 Corinthians 5:21). Though justification as a principle is found throughout Scripture, the main passage describing justification in relation to believers is Romans 3:21-26: “But now a righteousness from God, apart from law, has been made known, to which the Law and the prophets testify. This righteousness from God comes through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe. There is no difference, for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus. God presented him as a sacrifice of atonement, through faith in his blood. He did this to demonstrate his justice, because in his forbearance he had left the sins committed beforehand unpunished—he did it to demonstrate his justice at the present time, so as to be just and the one who justifies those who have faith in Jesus.”

We are justified, declared righteous, at the moment of our salvation. Justification does not make us righteous, but rather pronounces us righteous. Our righteousness comes from placing our faith in the finished work of Jesus Christ. His sacrifice covers our sin, allowing God to see us as perfect and unblemished. Because as believers we are in Christ, God sees Christ's own righteousness when He looks at us. This meets God's demands for perfection; thus, He declares us righteous—He justifies us.

Romans 5:18-19 sums it up well: “Consequently, just as the result of one trespass was condemnation for all men, so also the result of one act of righteousness was justification that brings life for all men. For just as through the disobedience of the one man the many were made sinners, so also through the obedience of the one man the many will be made righteous.” It is because of justification that the peace of God can rule in our lives. It is because of justification that believers can have assurance of salvation. It is the fact of justification that enables God to begin the process of sanctification—the process by which God makes us in reality what we already are positionally. “Therefore, since we have been justified through faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ” (Romans 5:1).

 

[Jethro Bodine]

No...I'm insisting that it's an undeniable fact Scripture teaches that Abraham was justified in Gen. 12, 15 AND 17. You can try to mis-characterize it if you want, but that's what I'm insisting, and that's what you are going to have to argue against eventually.

Just show us where it says that and we can all go home.

 

[dadof10]

Just show us where it says that and we can all go home.

After describing Abraham in Gen. 17, Paul says "And therefore it was imputed to him for righteousness." (Rom.4:22 KJV)

Or, if you prefer the NASB, which you always use:

"Therefore IT WAS ALSO CREDITED TO HIM AS RIGHTEOUSNESS."

Also, if there is any question about it, I can probably go back to our previous thread and find where you made the point that Romans 4 refers to Gen. 17. Bye Felicia...

 

[Jethro Bodine]

We have moved on to Gen. 17 and Rom. 4:16-22, haven't we? You know, the verses that end with "And therefore it was imputed to him for righteousness." (Rom 4:22 KJV) Certainly this means that Abraham was justified in Gen. 17...Right?

Uh, no.

Romans 4:16-22 is a reference to Genesis 15, the one and only place it says Abraham was justified (as in 'made' righteous).

"18 In hope against hope he believed, so that he might become a father of many nations according to that which had been spoken, “SO SHALL YOUR DESCENDANTS BE.” 19 Without becoming weak in faith he contemplated his own body, now as good as dead since he was about a hundred years old, and the deadness of Sarah’s womb; 20 yet, with respect to the promise of God, he did not waver in unbelief but grew strong in faith, giving glory to God, 21 and being fully assured that what God had promised, He was able also to perform. 22 Therefore IT WAS ALSO CREDITED TO HIM AS RIGHTEOUSNESS. " (Romans 4:18-22 NASB capitals in original)

See "so shall your descendants be" in verse 18? That's a reference from Genesis 15:5, not Genesis 12. And "it was also credited to him as righteousness" in verse 22 is a reference to Genesis 15:6. So I don't see how you came to the conclusion that Romans 4:16-22 is a reference to his circumcision in Genesis 17.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

After describing Abraham in Gen. 17, Paul says "And therefore it was imputed to him for righteousness." (Rom.4:22 KJV)

Or, if you prefer the NASB, which you always use:

"Therefore IT WAS ALSO CREDITED TO HIM AS RIGHTEOUSNESS."

Please read post #246. I was crafting it when you were posting this.

Also, if there is any question about it, I can probably go back to our previous thread and find where you made the point that Romans 4 refers to Gen. 17.

I made the point that Romans 4:9-11 is where Paul refers to Abraham's circumcision in Genesis 17. And he makes note of it to point out that he was already righteous when he got that circumcision, not declared righteous at his circumcision as you are claiming.

Bye Felicia...

What?

 

[Jethro Bodine]

If God accepts only our Faith in return for Him Instantly crediting HIS Righteous to us, then who are we to try to prove this isnt the case?

You must have me confused with someone else in this forum who is trying to prove that, because I'm certainly not.

 

[turnorburn]

OK, let's see how this goes. I believe that a person has to have obedient faith in order to be justified. If a person (you or I) stops having an obedient faith, we cease to be justified. Some people think it doesn't matter whether we continue in obedient faith, justification is a one time event that can never be lost, not a process. Those who think that way are wrong. Scripture teaches that justification is a process and we must continue in obedient faith or we are in danger of losing our justification. Good enough? OK. Please go ahead and tell me whether you think Abraham was justified more than once and your reason for thinking that way.

Doesn't matter what i think according to Gods word your teaching a false doctrine..

Galatians 2:16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.

tob

*edit: not a drive by I'm fixing supper

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Do you really not see any difference between Abraham's situation and Cornelius'? The fact that Abraham was pre-Pentecost and Cornelius was post doesn't matter to you? Does the fact that AFTER Christ came, justification was by faith IN CHRIST?

Do I see any difference? Very little actually.

Years ago I studied and studied in preparation for a Bible study trying to discern how Abraham's faith is somehow like our faith in Christ that he should be the father and example of our faith and how our faith also will be credited to us as righteousness (Romans 4:23-24). Then it occurred to me it's because he, like us, had faith in God's word that he would provide a son coming from our own bodies that would inherit the promises on our behalf. Understand?

Abraham talked directly to God, had faithful obedience before Christ and so was justified. Cornelius didn't talk directly to God and had faith IN GOD ONLY (like the Jewish people), not in Christ.

Sounds good, but actually our faith is in God, too, though we do throw around the words that our faith is 'in Christ'.

"20 He was chosen before the creation of the world, but was revealed in these last times for your sake. 21 Through him you believe in God, who raised him from the dead and glorified him, and so your faith and hope are in God." (1 Peter 1:20-21 NASB)

It wasn't until he had the opportunity to either accept or reject Christ that he was justified. Abraham didn't have this opportunity, that's the difference, and it's huge.

In Genesis 15, Abraham had the same opportunity to believe in a son that God would provide that would inherit the blessing on our behalf that we do. It's not as different from how we are justified as you think. That's why I believe it's no accident, but very purposeful, that Abraham is justified in Genesis 15, not Genesis 12, or any other time, because that is where he receives the very specific revelation about a son who would inherit the promises for him. It's the same gospel we have today.

 

[childeye]

If not, why does Jesus speak of the person who does that?
"13“Those on the rocky soil are those who, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no firm root; they believe for a while, and in time of temptation fall away. " (Luke 8:13 NASB)


Perhaps that is the person Jesus is talking about in the fourth type of soil:
"15 But the seed in the good soil, these are the ones who have heard the word in an honest and good heart, and hold it fast, and bear fruit with perseverance." (Luke 8:15 NASB)

Interesting. I had these exact same scriptures enter my thoughts immediately after I posted the post that you are responding to. I believe that this is not coincidental, since the Holy Spirit does indeed bring scripture to mind. So after considering the same sentiments you have just posted, I then went back and edited my post to include "and back again", in this sentence: Allow me to frame the question in this manner. Is this a free choice to believe God is good, and then believe that God is evil, and back again, simply as a persons prerogative?

I therefore must surmise that there does exist a Love for God that is incorruptible, and it must exist as a power that moves a man's will in faithfulness unto God, through an Image of God, that values God over all things. Hence Job would not curse God no matter what Satan did to Job. Satan was wrong in thinking that mankind who was lower than the angels, only Loves God for his own self interest, and God was right that there is something greater that comprises a pure heart, (a pure Image of God) Romans 1:23. I believe Satan was therefore projecting his own heart like that of his children, in desiring to test Job. Therefore, I believe that free will is an equivocation working in the minds of those who count it as a valuable thing, the freedom to not love God. Would you agree?

 

[dadof10]

{ I believe that a person has to have obedient faith in order to be justified. } i disagree with you. in fact your definition of justification is wrong... what i will agree with is we should be obedient in faith, if i have misunderstood your post. please correct me .but your definition of justification i found alarming

Question: "What is justification? What does it mean to be justified?"

Answer: Simply put, to justify is to declare righteous, to make one right with God. Justification is God’s declaring those who receive Christ to be righteous, based on Christ’s righteousness being imputed to the accounts of those who receive Christ (2 Corinthians 5:21). Though justification as a principle is found throughout Scripture, the main passage describing justification in relation to believers is Romans 3:21-26: “But now a righteousness from God, apart from law, has been made known, to which the Law and the prophets testify. This righteousness from God comes through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe. There is no difference, for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus. God presented him as a sacrifice of atonement, through faith in his blood. He did this to demonstrate his justice, because in his forbearance he had left the sins committed beforehand unpunished—he did it to demonstrate his justice at the present time, so as to be just and the one who justifies those who have faith in Jesus.”

We are justified, declared righteous, at the moment of our salvation. Justification does not make us righteous, but rather pronounces us righteous. Our righteousness comes from placing our faith in the finished work of Jesus Christ. His sacrifice covers our sin, allowing God to see us as perfect and unblemished. Because as believers we are in Christ, God sees Christ's own righteousness when He looks at us. This meets God's demands for perfection; thus, He declares us righteous—He justifies us.

Romans 5:18-19 sums it up well: “Consequently, just as the result of one trespass was condemnation for all men, so also the result of one act of righteousness was justification that brings life for all men. For just as through the disobedience of the one man the many were made sinners, so also through the obedience of the one man the many will be made righteous.” It is because of justification that the peace of God can rule in our lives. It is because of justification that believers can have assurance of salvation. It is the fact of justification that enables God to begin the process of sanctification—the process by which God makes us in reality what we already are positionally. “Therefore, since we have been justified through faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ” (Romans 5:1).

I know what your definition of justification is, Ezra. I've heard basically the same definition on forums for over 25 years. What justification IS is not the point of this thread. I just pointed out in the OP that Abraham was justified (however you care to define it) more than once. He was justified in Gen. 12 when he "went out..." He was justified in Gen. 15 when he "believed God..." and he was justified in Gen. 17 because Paul said he was. Do you agree or disagree and why?

 

[turnorburn]

This is starting to sound like the teaching of Tim Staples.. a works doctrine that has nothing to do with being justified by faith

tob

 

[dadof10]

Uh, no.

Romans 4:16-22 is a reference to Genesis 15, the one and only place it says Abraham was justified (as in 'made' righteous).

Finally you decided to engage in actual exegesis of the verses in question. That's great. It's been hard being patient, I'm not a patient person by nature. Let's take a look at your contention, going verse by verse.

"18 In hope against hope he believed, so that he might become a father of many nations..."

This is nowhere in Gen. 15. It is, however in Gen 17, verses 4 and 5:

"As for me, behold, my covenant [is] with thee, and thou shalt be a father of many nations. Neither shall thy name any more be called Abram, but thy name shall be Abraham; for a father of many nations have I made thee." (Gen 17:4-5 KJV)

Paul is obviously referencing Gen. 17 here. Next half of the verse:

"...according to that which had been spoken, “SO SHALL YOUR DESCENDANTS BE.”

Had been spoken, past tense. Abraham believed that he would become "father of many nations" because of something that had been spoken before "he believed". "So shall your descendants be" was spoken in Gen. 15:5, long before he was told he would be "father of many nations".

"19 Without becoming weak in faith he contemplated his own body, now as good as dead since he was about a hundred years old, and the deadness of Sarah’s womb;"

Again, no mention of Abraham being "about a hundred years old" or "the deadness of Sarah's womb" in Gen. 15, but in Gen. 17:

"Then Abraham fell upon his face, and laughed, and said in his heart, Shall [a child] be born unto him that is an hundred years old? and shall Sarah, that is ninety years old, bear?" (Gen 17:17 KJV)

Not only did Abraham not "contemplate...the deadness of Sarah's womb" in Gen. 15, he didn't even think the covenant would be with Sarah, which is why he took Hagar. This could only be concerning Gen. 17, not Gen. 15

20 yet, with respect to the promise of God, he did not waver in unbelief but grew strong in faith, giving glory to God, 21 and being fully assured that what God had promised, He was able also to perform.

Abraham stayed "strong in faith" after he was told he would be "father of many nations" (Gen. 17), and ...

22 Therefore IT WAS ALSO CREDITED TO HIM AS RIGHTEOUSNESS. " (Romans 4:18-22 NASB capitals in original)

"Therefore" (dio: wherefore, on account of). https://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/lexicon/lexicon.cfm?Strongs=G1352&t=NASB

It couldn't be any more clear. Paul is telling us that before he was circumcised, he was justified, directly before, by obedient faith. Don't you see how powerful this revelation would be to a "Judaizer" who believed circumcision was necessary for salvation. Paul actually said that the faith Abraham had right before he actually committed the act of circumcision was what justified him. Let's recap.

"Father of many nations" from Gen. 17, not mentioned in Gen. 15 at all.

"Which had been spoken 'so shall your descendants be'" is a reference to to a past tense statement from Gen. 15.

"Abraham being "about a hundred years old, and the deadness of Sarah’s womb" from Gen. 17, not mentioned in Gen. 15 at all.

"Therefore" he was justified, because of what happened after Gen. 15, when he was called "father of many nations", when he was "about a hundred years old", and when he contemplated "the deadness of Sarah’s womb". All of which happened in Gen. 17, not Gen. 15. Pretty straightforward.

See "so shall your descendants be" in verse 18? That's a reference from Genesis 15:5, not Genesis 12.

I never said it was from Gen. 12. Always from Gen. 17.

And "it was also credited to him as righteousness" in verse 22 is a reference to Genesis 15:6.

Not unless the stuff that came before the "therefore" is from before Gen. 15:6. It's clearly not.

So I don't see how you came to the conclusion that Romans 4:16-22 is a reference to his circumcision in Genesis 17.

I hope you do now. Maybe you could go verse by verse and tell me how you come to the conclusion that it's about Gen. 15. BTW. I'm not at all saying this was in "reference to his circumcision". As I said repeatedly in the past and in the above post, Abraham's justification in Gen. 17 happened by obedient faith before he was circumcised. Nice try slipping that in there.

 

[dadof10]

Please read post #246. I was crafting it when you were posting this.

Jumped the gun, sorry.

I made the point that Romans 4:9-11 is where Paul refers to Abraham's circumcision in Genesis 17. And he makes note of it to point out that he was already righteous when he got that circumcision, not declared righteous at his circumcision as you are claiming.

Ok. I probably couldn't find it anyway. I don't remember which thread it was in.

What?

It's a quote from a silly movie. Forget it...

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Finally you decided to engage in actual exegesis of the verses in question. That's great. It's been hard being patient, I'm not a patient person by nature. Let's take a look at your contention, going verse by verse.

"18 In hope against hope he believed, so that he might become a father of many nations..."

This is nowhere in Gen. 15. It is, however in Gen 17, verses 4 and 5:

"As for me, behold, my covenant [is] with thee, and thou shalt be a father of many nations. Neither shall thy name any more be called Abram, but thy name shall be Abraham; for a father of many nations have I made thee." (Gen 17:4-5 KJV)

Paul is obviously referencing Gen. 17 here. Next half of the verse:

"...according to that which had been spoken, “SO SHALL YOUR DESCENDANTS BE.”

Had been spoken, past tense. Abraham believed that he would become "father of many nations" because of something that had been spoken before "he believed". "So shall your descendants be" was spoken in Gen. 15:5, long before he was told he would be "father of many nations".

"19 Without becoming weak in faith he contemplated his own body, now as good as dead since he was about a hundred years old, and the deadness of Sarah’s womb;"

Again, no mention of Abraham being "about a hundred years old" or "the deadness of Sarah's womb" in Gen. 15, but in Gen. 17:

"Then Abraham fell upon his face, and laughed, and said in his heart, Shall [a child] be born unto him that is an hundred years old? and shall Sarah, that is ninety years old, bear?" (Gen 17:17 KJV)

Not only did Abraham not "contemplate...the deadness of Sarah's womb" in Gen. 15, he didn't even think the covenant would be with Sarah, which is why he took Hagar. This could only be concerning Gen. 17, not Gen. 15

20 yet, with respect to the promise of God, he did not waver in unbelief but grew strong in faith, giving glory to God, 21 and being fully assured that what God had promised, He was able also to perform.

Abraham stayed "strong in faith" after he was told he would be "father of many nations" (Gen. 17), and ...

22 Therefore IT WAS ALSO CREDITED TO HIM AS RIGHTEOUSNESS. " (Romans 4:18-22 NASB capitals in original)

"Therefore" (dio: wherefore, on account of). https://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/lexicon/lexicon.cfm?Strongs=G1352&t=NASB

It couldn't be any more clear. Paul is telling us that before he was circumcised, he was justified, directly before, by obedient faith. Don't you see how powerful this revelation would be to a "Judaizer" who believed circumcision was necessary for salvation. Paul actually said that the faith Abraham had right before he actually committed the act of circumcision was what justified him. Let's recap.

"Father of many nations" from Gen. 17, not mentioned in Gen. 15 at all.

"Which had been spoken 'so shall your descendants be'" is a reference to to a past tense statement from Gen. 15.

"Abraham being "about a hundred years old, and the deadness of Sarah’s womb" from Gen. 17, not mentioned in Gen. 15 at all.

"Therefore" he was justified, because of what happened after Gen. 15, when he was called "father of many nations", when he was "about a hundred years old", and when he contemplated "the deadness of Sarah’s womb". All of which happened in Gen. 17, not Gen. 15. Pretty straightforward.


I never said it was from Gen. 12. Always from Gen. 17.


Not unless the stuff that came before the "therefore" is from before Gen. 15:6. It's clearly not.


I hope you do now. Maybe you could go verse by verse and tell me how you come to the conclusion that it's about Gen. 15. BTW. I'm not at all saying this was in "reference to his circumcision". As I said repeatedly in the past and in the above post, Abraham's justification in Gen. 17 happened by obedient faith before he was circumcised. Nice try slipping that in there.

You've got a very big problem with your theory. You have explained that it is necessary to be re-justified because of failing faith (doubt, not apostasy).

18 In hope against hope he believed, so that he might become a father of many nations according to that which had been spoken, “SO SHALL YOUR DESCENDANTS BE.” 19 Without becoming weak in faith he contemplated his own body, now as good as dead since he was about a hundred years old, and the deadness of Sarah’s womb; 20 yet, with respect to the promise of God, he did not waver in unbelief but grew strong in faith, giving glory to God, 21 and being fully assured that what God had promised, He was able also to perform. 22 Therefore IT WAS ALSO CREDITED TO HIM AS RIGHTEOUSNESS."

Look at the passage. If Abraham never became weak in faith from the time he believed God when God said "So shall your descendants be" (Genesis 15:5), and even grew stronger in his faith in Genesis 17 when "he contemplated his own body, now as good as dead since he was about a hundred years old" when God said the promised son will come from Sarah, how is that the basis for your argument that justification is a process because of doubt? His faith never wavered that he should need to be re-justified.

Paul is describing Abraham's unwavering, even growing faith, not a need to be re-justified because of doubt. This passage not only does not show Abraham being re-justified, but shows that it is not even necessary for him to be re-justified (because of doubt as you say). In the eyes of your doctrine and your understanding of justification, he is maintaining, even growing, not diminishing, the basis for the justification he received in Genesis 15:6.

 

[ezra]

I know what your definition of justification is, Ezra. I've heard basically the same definition on forums for over 25 years. What justification IS is not the point of this thread. I just pointed out in the OP that Abraham was justified (however you care to define it) more than once. He was justified in Gen. 12 when he "went out..." He was justified in Gen. 15 when he "believed God..." and he was justified in Gen. 17 because Paul said he was. Do you agree or disagree and why?

justified by faith grace the blood. you keep wanting to add works in. works come after salvation .no amount of obedience self effort can make anyone justified.. we are justified { just as if we had never sinned } the moment we are saved/ it,s all done by GOD. he wipes our past clean.. keep on working your way to heaven and someday if your read . your bible close enough you might see its only through Jesus we are justified not works . how many post does it take to show you this?

 

[ezra]

I know what your definition of justification is, Ezra. I've heard basically the same definition on forums for over 25 years. What justification IS is not the point of this thread. I just pointed out in the OP that Abraham was justified (however you care to define it) more than once. He was justified in Gen. 12 when he "went out..." He was justified in Gen. 15 when he "believed God..." and he was justified in Gen. 17 because Paul said he was. Do you agree or disagree and why?

justified by faith. looking to the cross that has yet to come...
Faithful Abraham
8 By {"faith Abraham obeyed" }when he was called to go out to the place which he would receive as an inheritance. And he went out, not knowing where he was going. 9 By faith he dwelt in the land of promise as in a foreign country, dwelling in tents with Isaac and Jacob, the heirs with him of the same promise;10 for he waited for the city which has foundations, whose builder and maker isGod.

11 By faith Sarah herself also received strength to conceive seed, and she bore a child when she was past the age, because she judged Him faithful who had promised. 12 Therefore from one man, and him as good as dead, were born as many as the stars of the sky in multitude—innumerable as the sand which is by the seashore.

The Heavenly Hope
13 These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off were assured of them, embraced them and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth. 14 For those who say such things declare plainly that they seek a homeland. 15 And truly if they had called to mind that country from which they had come out, they would have had opportunity to return. 16 But now they desire a better, that is, a heavenlycountry. Therefore God is not ashamed to be called their God, for He has prepared a city for them.

The Faith of the Patriarchs
17 By faith Abraham, when he was tested, offered up Isaac, and he who had received the promises offered up his only begotten son, 18 of whom it was said,“In Isaac your seed shall be called,”19 concluding that God was able to raisehim up, even from the dead, from which he also received him in a figurative sense.

20 By faith Isaac blessed Jacob and Esau concerning things to come.

21 By faith Jacob, when he was dying, blessed each of the sons of Joseph, and worshiped, leaning on the top of his staff.

22 By faith Joseph, when he was dying, made mention of the departure of the children of Israel, and gave instructions concerning his bones.

 

[Kidron]

You must have me confused with someone else in this forum who is trying to prove that, because I'm certainly not.

Kidron writes:
""""""If God accepts only our Faith in return for Him Instantly crediting HIS Righteous to us, then who are we to try to prove this isnt the case?"""""

Jethro Bodine responds:

You must have me confused with someone else in this forum who is trying to prove that, because I'm certainly not


well, JB, here is the issue.....
You say that you understand that we are instantly born again when we believe the Gospel and trust Christ, and that we are instantly justified, by GOD, yet your next step will be to try to tear down what God has already completed by saying....."but we have to keep our faith, or we LOSE what God has provided" ,..so, you are actually contradicting yourself.
So, that is the issue.
The issue is that you try to undo what cant be undone , which is, being born again.
See you actually believe that you can be "unborn again" if a Christian "stops believing" or does not "maintain their faith to the end"
And the reason this is absolutely and completely wrong theologically, is that you are misunderstanding the fact that its God who has re-birthed you through the Holy Spirit, and NOT you faith.
JB, all your faith does one time, is release God into your situation for a one time eternal redemption.....So, its not faith that redeems, it GOD who redeems once, when you initially believe.
And this is why you are SAVED.
See that word?.......SAVED........it has a "D" on the end......because its completed-finished, and does not require any more faith to get it to remain......and that is why you dont hold unto your faith to maintain what is already finished.
So, you try to maintain your redemption by your faith, but it not your faith that redeemed you, so your lack of faith is not able after to cancel your redemption as faith isnt your redemption......Jesus is.
So you are trusting your faith to keep you redeemed, instead of trusting Jesus who redeemed you and who is in fact your redemption.
Its odd that you cant grasp that if you trusted Jesus to save you, that you later have decided to trust "keeping your faith to the end" as what saves you.

 

[dadof10]

Doesn't matter what i think according to Gods word your teaching a false doctrine..

Galatians 2:16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.

tob

*edit: not a drive by I'm fixing supper

Have I "taught" that justification is by "works of the law"? If so, where? Anything to add to what I actually said? Didn't think so...And it will go downhill from here.