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The Process Of Justification

reba said:
And here i thought i had a good idea... i have never read Luthers work.
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I think you do have a good idea. Scriptures that speak things such as, ye are yet carnal, and about the renewing of the mind indicates this. 1 Corinthians 3:3, Titus 3:5.
 
turnorburn said:
This is how it reads in my bible..

Romans 3:24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:
28 Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.

tob
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Romans 3:24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:
28 Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.

Salvation = blood atonement = "done deal".
 
Kidron said:
Romans 3:24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:
28 Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.

Salvation = blood atonement = "done deal".
Click to expand...

faith without the work of obedience is dead.


JLB
 
The only kind of faith that justifies is the faith that obeys.

Faith that does not obey is dead.


JLB
 
Jethro Bodine said:
But the faith that he had that had works attached did not justify him until Genesis 15:6..
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I just reread this and I think I misunderstood your point. Are you saying that Abraham had faith that "had works attached" in Gen. 12, but that "faith that had works attached" didn't justify him until years later?

Or did you mean (the way I interpreted it) that Abraham had faith in Gen. 12 but it had no works attached. He went along with this faith and when he finally did "attach works", (Gen. 15) he was justified?
 
dadof10 said:
I just reread this and I think I misunderstood your point. Are you saying that Abraham had faith that "had works attached" in Gen. 12, but that "faith that had works attached" didn't justify him until years later?
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Yes.

dadof10 said:
Or did you mean (the way I interpreted it) that Abraham had faith in Gen. 12 but it had no works attached. He went along with this faith and when he finally did "attach works", (Gen. 15) he was justified?
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No.
 
Jethro Bodine said:
This is the sticking point you can't seem to see any other way: Faith does not justify categorically and without exception just because it did something.
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There is one other point that I would like clarification on. Does a faith that "does something" and trusts God and obeys God, "categorically and without exception" justify? Your "faith that does something" is a straw man. Remember, we are talking about Abraham's faith in Gen. 12. He "went out" (obeyed) "not knowing where ehe was to go" (trusted). This is the "kind" of faith he had and what you have to call "commendable" to "keep your doctrine", and is what I would say, without exception, justifies.
 
dadof10 said:
Ok, why? What makes you think so? Was the faith he showed in Gen. 15 of a different kind than in Gen. 12?
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Either that, or the object of his faith was different. Maybe both.
All we know is he was justified in Genesis 15, not Genesis 12, because that's what the Bible actually says, and which is consistent with the Bible's teaching about the one-time justifying and setting apart to holiness that happens to people when they have the faith that solicits that justification/sanctification.
 
Jethro Bodine said:
All we know is he was justified in Genesis 15
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Really? Let's discuss why you would say this.

And he believed in the Lord, and He accounted it to him for righteousness. Genesis 15:6

OK, so we don't find that Abraham was justified from Genesis 15, but rather that the Lord accounted to him for righteousness.

Is everyone who walks in the righteousness of faith considered justified?

What then shall we say that Abraham, our forefather according to the flesh, has found?
For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God.
For what does the Scripture say? “ABRAHAM BELIEVED GOD, AND IT WAS CREDITED TO HIM AS RIGHTEOUSNESS.”
Now to the one who works, his wage is not credited as a favor, but as what is due.
But to the one who does not work, but believes in Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is credited as righteousness,
Romans 4:1-5 NASB

I think we all agree that the works of the law does not justify a person, which is the works Paul is referring to here.

Paul uses the same language from Genesis 15, to prove his point about the righteousness of faith.

ABRAHAM BELIEVED GOD, AND IT WAS CREDITED TO HIM AS RIGHTEOUSNESS.

There is no mention of Abraham being justified here, the phrase is righteousness, specifically "credited to him "as" righteousness.

So again, my question is, are all who walk in the righteousness of faith, considered justified, or is there specific criteria or circumstances whereby a person who walks in the righteousness of faith is "justified" by God.

Verse 2, For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God.

Was Abraham justified by works? No

Verse 3, For what does the Scripture say? “ABRAHAM BELIEVED GOD, AND IT WAS CREDITED TO HIM AS RIGHTEOUSNESS.”

No mention of justification in this verse.


Where is it specifically that it says Abraham was justified in Genesis 15, since it is your claim that all righteousness of faith, doesn't necessarily justify, how can we assume that Abraham was justified in Genesis 15?


JLB
 
Jethro Bodine said:
Either that, or the object of his faith was different. Maybe both.
Click to expand...
The object of his faith was the Triune God. Are you saying he believed in some other God in Gen. 12?

All we know is he was justified in Genesis 15, not Genesis 12, because that's what the Bible actually says,
Click to expand...
No, sorry. You haven't answered my questions concerning Rom. 4:13 yet.

For the promise, that he should be the heir of the world, was not to Abraham, or to his seed, through the law, but through the righteousness of faith.

You've admitted that this is in reference to Gen. 12 and it's obvious that the term "righteousness of faith" means justified.

Unless you believe that this verse doesn't refer to Gen. 12 or the words "righteousness of faith" don't refer to justification, the Bible does "actually" say Abraham was justified in Gen. 12
 
dadof10 said:
Unless you believe that this verse doesn't refer to Gen. 12 or the words "righteousness of faith" don't refer to justification, the Bible does "actually" say Abraham was justified in Gen. 12
Click to expand...

:thumbsup

If we were to evaluate justification, according to man's bible commentary, and the different meanings assigned therein, then Abraham was justified [declared righteous] in Genesis 12, and justified [shown to be righteous] in Genesis 15, while standing in the promise land that God called him to.

So if the "first time" a person is justified they are declared to be righteous, then Genesis 12 would have been that "first time"... as it is written ...But to him who does not work but believes on Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is accounted for righteousness. Romans 4:5

If the "first time" a person is justified, they are indeed declared righteous, from their position of being ungodly, then Genesis 12 would have been when Abraham was "saved" [declared righteous; ie justified], as a shadow and type of those to come who are saved by faith in Christ Jesus.

Does the scripture support this?

7 Therefore know that only those who are of faith are sons of Abraham. 8 And the Scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, preached the gospel to Abraham beforehand, saying, “In you all the nations shall be blessed.”9 So then those who are of faith are blessed with believing Abraham. Galatians 3:7-9

This is a reference to Genesis 12, where Abraham was first justified.

His response to this "Gospel", was obedient faith, setting an example for those of us who would later believe, and therefore obey, thereby becoming a friend of God.



JLB
 
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