The Process Of Justification

[JLB]

I hope this is clear enough.

It couldn't be more clear, which is why you are only getting ridiculous straw man circular reasonings, rather than a godly scriptural response.

Good Post... For a Catholic.

 

[dadof10]

It couldn't be more clear, which is why you are only getting ridiculous straw man circular reasonings, rather than a godly scriptural response.

Good Post... For a Catholic.

 

[smaller]

because somewhere between the time he left Haran and "looked at the stars...", he lost his obedience or his faith.

You seem quite intent on smearing the father of faith for some odd reasons.

Romans 4:12
And the father of circumcision to them who are not of the circumcision only, but who also walk in the steps of that faith of our father Abraham, which he had being yet uncircumcised.

 

[dadof10]

When you are talking about justification, you are talking about the law and the commandments.

I'm lost here. Are you saying that Paul's idea of justification by faith is "about the law and the commandments"?

Abraham was justified in what he was going to do (kill his son) by his faith in God. Killing is against God's law. It doesn't matter that the law was not yet given; killing has always been against God's law.

Then how does going against the law (by faith?) justify a person?

So you can say Abraham was justified by faith in the first case. In the second case Abraham obeyed the LORD, but this was not a commandment to break the law. So I would not say justification is a process according to your argument, especially since our Lord Jesus Christ took away our sins, so we are justified or excused/forgiven by our faith in him.

If we have "faith in Him" we are justified, right? All I'm saying is that if we stop having "faith in Him" or whatever you personally think justifies, we will stop being justified, and will need to be justified again. The example of Abraham being justified more than once bears this out. Justification is not a once-for-all deal.

Then again I'm not really sure what you mean by process. If you mean live by faith or what? I guess it can be a process since we have to deal with the world and temptation every day.

If we lose faith or fall into temptation, do you think we lose justification or stop being justified? My view is that we do and must repent or reaffirm our faith in order to be rejustified. Again, this is what happened to Abraham. He was justified in gen. 12, then again in Gen. 15.

 

[dadof10]

You seem quite intent on smearing the father of faith for some odd reasons.

Romans 4:12
And the father of circumcision to them who are not of the circumcision only, but who also walk in the steps of that faith of our father Abraham, which he had being yet uncircumcised.

How is saying that he was justified in Gen. 12 "smearing"? Everyone loses their justification at some point or another. You might as well say I'm "smearing" all of humanity.

He had this justifying faith in Gen. 12. He was "yet uncircumcised" in Gen. 12, right? Try and actually read what I just wrote and respond accordingly for a change, instead of using my response as a springboard to launch into a diatribe about demonic possession.

 

[JLB]

You ever read Guyon, Fenelon or Molinos ?


JLB

 

[smaller]

How is saying that he was justified in Gen. 12 "smearing"?

The claim that Abraham somehow lost his faith is quite "out there."

instead of using my response as a springboard to launch into a diatribe about demonic possession.

An inability to grasp subject matter would seem more likely.

 

[dadof10]

You ever read Guyon, Fenelon or Molinos ?


JLB

LOL...never even heard of them. I think I've heard the name "Molinos" before, but beyond that, I got nothin'. Are they the double play combination from the 1923 Reds? Guyon to Fenelon to Molinos...:halo

 

[dadof10]

The claim that Abraham somehow lost his faith is quite "out there."

This is awesome, coming from you. The Church that was founded by Christ has taught for over 2000 years that justification can be lost. MANY, if not most, mainline Protestant denominations have taught for over 500 years that justification can be lost. The main doctrine that you push here is believed by an incredibly tiny percentage of believers, but the fact that Abraham lost his justification is "out there"??? I'll get this post edited if I continue. I'll just stop right here...

An inability to grasp subject matter would seem more likely.

The topic here is whether Abraham was justified in Gen. 12, then again in Gen. 15. Do you have any actual comment on this "subject matter"?

 

[smaller]

This is awesome, coming from you. The Church that was founded by Christ has taught for over 2000 years that justification can be lost.

Uh, no. That is the findings of men who sell doubt, disputations and seek to destroy believers. They are NOT "the church" but the ones Paul warned about in Acts 20, and known as such by their "actions."

MANY, if not most, mainline Protestant denominations have taught for over 500 years that justification can be lost.

Again, false. I wish we could speak more on the topic, but unfortunately for you we can't.

I will say that some orthodox openly double deal atonement.

The main doctrine that you push here is believed by an incredibly tiny percentage of believers, but the fact that Abraham lost his justification is "out there"??? I'll get this post edited if I continue. I'll just stop right here...

Your claim is that Abraham lost his faith. There is exactly zero scriptural evidence of such a sight. So, it's FALSE. Pretty simple.

The topic here is whether Abraham was justified in Gen. 12, then again in Gen. 15. Do you have any actual comment on this "subject matter"?

I was commenting on your claim of Abraham losing his faith, and thereby, somehow "needing" to rejustify himself, supposedly. All suppositions unsubstantiated by any of your citings.

 

[dadof10]

Uh, no. That is the findings of men who sell doubt, disputations and seek to destroy believers. They are NOT "the church" but the ones Paul warned about in Acts 20, and known as such by their "actions."



Again, false. I wish we could speak more on the topic, but unfortunately for you we can't.

I will say that some orthodox openly double deal atonement.



Your claim is that Abraham lost his faith. There is exactly zero scriptural evidence of such a sight. So, it's FALSE. Pretty simple.



I was commenting on your claim of Abraham losing his faith, and thereby, somehow "needing" to rejustify himself, supposedly. All suppositions unsubstantiated by any of your citings.

Oh. There is no SCRIPTURAL evidence....OK, gosh, if you say so then it must be true. Thanks for straightening me out. I'm forever in your debt.

 

[smaller]

Oh. There is no SCRIPTURAL evidence....OK, gosh, if you say so then it must be true. Thanks for straightening me out. I'm forever in your debt.

Does your church teach you that Abraham "lost his faith?!"

Seriously?

I doubt it.

Where you picked up that idea is, well, I'd say beyond me, but you know where those kinds of debaucheries come from well enough by now from my sights. I don't blame you for denigrating Abraham.

But the blamer and accuser of the brethren runs rampant in certain camps of understandings, unchecked.

Revelation 12:10
And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.

 

[dadof10]

Does your church teach you that Abraham "lost his faith?!"

Seriously?

I doubt it.

Where you picked up that idea is, well, I'd say beyond me, but you know where those kinds of debaucheries come from well enough by now from my sights. I don't blame you for denigrating Abraham.

But the blamer and accuser of the brethren runs rampant in certain camps of understandings, unchecked.

Revelation 12:10
And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.

And....there it is. I knew it was coming. Give you a tiny opening and it all comes flying out...

 

[MarkT]

I'm lost here. Are you saying that Paul's idea of justification by faith is "about the law and the commandments"?


Then how does going against the law (by faith?) justify a person?


If we have "faith in Him" we are justified, right? All I'm saying is that if we stop having "faith in Him" or whatever you personally think justifies, we will stop being justified, and will need to be justified again. The example of Abraham being justified more than once bears this out. Justification is not a once-for-all deal.


If we lose faith or fall into temptation, do you think we lose justification or stop being justified? My view is that we do and must repent or reaffirm our faith in order to be rejustified. Again, this is what happened to Abraham. He was justified in gen. 12, then again in Gen. 15.

When you justify yourself, you are approving yourself. You become wise in your own eyes. In Abraham's case, God justified him. He received God's approval. So, no, you don't have to keep proving yourself to God; he made us righteous by faith. So as long as we continue to believe in his Son, we are justified.

 

[dadof10]

When you justify yourself, you are approving yourself. You become wise in your own eyes. In Abraham's case, God justified him. He received God's approval. So, no, you don't have to keep proving yourself to God; he made us righteous by faith. So as long as we continue to believe in his Son, we are justified.

If we stop believing, will that stop our justification?

 

[Jethro Bodine]

If we stop believing, will that stop our justification?

Since that is how we were justified in the first place, yes, that will end our justification.

"we have now been justified by his blood" (Romans 5:9 NIV)

No faith in the blood means no more on going one-time offering of blood applied to your account (Hebrews 7:25 NIV). No more blood means no more justification. And Hebrews explains how the person who has willfully trampled on the blood has nothing to look forward to except damnation with the enemies of God, with no possibility for repentance:

"26If we deliberately keep on sinning after we have received the knowledge of the truth, no sacrifice for sins is left, 27but only a fearful expectation of judgment and of raging fire that will consume the enemies of God. 28Anyone who rejected the law of Moses died without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses. 29How much more severely do you think someone deserves to be punished who has trampled the Son of God underfoot, who has treated as an unholy thing the blood of the covenant that sanctified them, and who has insulted the Spirit of grace?" (Hebrews 10:26-29 NIV)

"4It is impossible for those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, who have shared in the Holy Spirit, 5who have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the coming age 6and who have fallen away, to be brought back to repentance. To their loss they are crucifying the Son of God all over again and subjecting him to public disgrace." (Hebrews 6:4-6 NIV)

I let people who have apostatized work it out with God themselves to determine if they've been turned over to their rejection of the blood so as to be beyond recovery. I won't touch it with a ten foot pole. They come into these forums every now and again. A pretty sobering reality, for sure.

 

[dadof10]

Since that is how we were justified in the first place, yes, that will end our justification.

"we have now been justified by his blood" (Romans 5:9 NIV)

No faith in the blood means no more on going one-time offering of blood applied to your account (Hebrews 7:25 NIV). No more blood means no more justification. And Hebrews explains how the person who has willfully trampled on the blood has nothing to look forward to except damnation with the enemies of God, with no possibility for repentance:

"26If we deliberately keep on sinning after we have received the knowledge of the truth, no sacrifice for sins is left, 27but only a fearful expectation of judgment and of raging fire that will consume the enemies of God. 28Anyone who rejected the law of Moses died without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses. 29How much more severely do you think someone deserves to be punished who has trampled the Son of God underfoot, who has treated as an unholy thing the blood of the covenant that sanctified them, and who has insulted the Spirit of grace?" (Hebrews 10:26-29 NIV)

"4It is impossible for those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, who have shared in the Holy Spirit, 5who have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the coming age 6and who have fallen away, to be brought back to repentance. To their loss they are crucifying the Son of God all over again and subjecting him to public disgrace." (Hebrews 6:4-6 NIV)

I let people who have apostatized work it out with God themselves to determine if they've been turned over to their rejection of the blood so as to be beyond recovery. I won't touch it with a ten foot pole. They come into these forums every now and again. A pretty sobering reality, for sure.

Do you see a difference between "trampling the Son of God underfoot" and "falling away" from the truth? Both involve ceasing to have faith, but the author of Hebrews seems to be describing someone who is vehemently anti-Christian, like the modern day atheist, as opposed to someone who simply falls away through apathy or, as is described in the parable of the sower, those who "have no root, they last only a short time" or "care of this world, and the deceitfulness of riches, choke the word, and he becometh unfruitful." I think there is a difference here. Those who simply "fall away" can be justified again as opposed to those who flat out apostatize.

 

[ezra]

Those who simply "fall away" can be justified again

your only justified one time. your only saved one time.

 

[dadof10]

your only justified one time. your only saved one time.

Paul disagrees with you, as does the author of Hebrews. It has been proven on this thread that Abraham was justified more than once. Why are you rejecting Biblical teaching?

 

[ezra]

Paul disagrees with you, as does the author of Hebrews. It has been proven on this thread that Abraham was justified more than once. Why are you rejecting Biblical teaching?

sigh we are only justified the moment we get saved i am only rejecting your misconception ..