The Process Of Justification

[Jethro Bodine]

By this faith, the "men of old" received divine approval. The author will go on to tell us who these "men of old" are and they all have the faith that "received divine approval", unless there is some reason to think otherwise. The same faith. Next verse...

By faith Abel offered to God a more acceptable sacrifice than Cain, through which he received approval as righteous, God bearing witness by accepting his gifts; he died, but through his faith he is still speaking. (Heb. 11:4 RSV)

Here we see that the "approval" spoken of in verse 1 was "approval as righteous". Read that again, Jethro so you will fully understand. By faith Abel offered his sacrifice "through which he received approval as righteous". Now, let's read verse 1b again:

"For by it [faith] the men of old received divine approval."

The faith being spoken of here is the faith that receives approval as righteous.

Then you believe this faith justifies a person before God:
3 By faith we understand that the universe was formed at God’s command, so that what is seen was not made out of what was visible." (Hebrews 11:3 NIV)

It would be nice if justification was that simple, but it's not. The author says that is faith, for sure, but it is faith that does not justify. But you are making the argument, whether you want to admit it or not, that it is the faith that justifies simply because it is commendable faith. That is the error you are trying to prop your doctrine up on.

By faith Enoch was taken up so that he should not see death; and he was not found, because God had taken him. Now before he was taken he was attested as having pleased God. And without faith it is impossible to please him. For whoever would draw near to God must believe that he exists and that he rewards those who seek him. (ibid. v.6)

Did Enoch have a justifying faith? It certainly doesn't say he did, but, since God "took him" and he "pleased God", my guess would be "yes". So I would say that's two of the "men of old" whose faith justified them, Abel and Enoch. In case you disagree, read on. Next verse...

By faith Noah, being warned by God concerning events as yet unseen, took heed and constructed an ark for the saving of his household; by this he condemned the world and became an heir of the righteousness which comes by faith. (ibid. v.7)

Well, this is pretty obvious. Noah was an "heir of righteousness", which means he was justified. Hummm.... Whose "righteousness" did Noah inherit "by faith"? He was an "heir" of righteousness. It was obviously through Enoch and Abel. So, even if you disagree that Enoch was actually justified even though he was "taken up" by God, the use of the word "heir" should dispel any doubt.

You're making the very sad mistake of thinking I said that no one in the chapter is being spoken of as being justified by their faith. The argument I'm making is these examples of faith are not examples of them being justified in the moment of having that faith. That's completely unreasonable to get out the chapter.

To believe that Abel, Enoch and Noah were justified, but Abraham was not, is laughable. The author uses the same word for Abraham's faith that he used in the sentence directly before, the sentence that says Noah "became an heir of the righteousness which comes by faith."

What's laughable is you twisted my argument as if I'm saying not everyone was justified in Hebrews 11. You failed to hear my argument that the examples of having faith in Hebrews 11 are not instances of the moment they were declared righteous. That is the argument that you have been unable to prove. All you've done is argue is, "See? they had faith. They were justified right then and there, then they had faith again, and 'boom', they were justified again." And I've countered with the argument that these are simply examples of commendable faith.

Maybe this will make your error more clear:

"24 By faith Moses, when he had grown up, refused to be known as the son of Pharaoh’s daughter." (Hebrews 11:24 NIV)

"27 By faith he left Egypt, not fearing the king’s anger" (Hebrews 11:27 NIV)

You're making the argument (from a predetermined idea) that Moses was made righteous (justified and re-justified) in each of these instances of faith. You're reading in your predetermined doctrine into the passage to make it say what it clearly does not say. It does not say he was justified each of those times. It's simply showing us two examples of faith that justified Moses had. That's all. It in no way teaches a series of justifications. It does teach a series of Moses of having faith. Not when he was justified by his faith.

In the case of Abraham, we know when he was justified by his faith--the faith he had been demonstrating from the time he left his homeland. How? The Bible plainly tells us!

"4Then the word of the Lord came to him: “This man will not be your heir, but a son who is your own flesh and blood will be your heir.” 5He took him outside and said, “Look up at the sky and count the stars—if indeed you can count them.” Then he said to him, “So shall your offspringd be.”
6 Abram believed the Lord, and he credited it to him as righteousness." (Genesis 15:6 NIV)

A doctrine of repeated justifications drawn from inference from the scriptures simply has no basis, and more importantly actually contradicts what the Bible says about justification--about it being a one time born-again experience that does not need to be repeated, as I showed you from the scriptures.

 

[dadof10]

Okay, I read that.
But if I love Jesus now and forever, do I really need to hear that?

Yes. To fully know Who it is that you love. There is a great book by Frank Sheed called "Theology and Sanity". It is mostly written as a reaction to the atheism of the first half of the last century, but the subject of the book is that if we are not living our lives believing in the Creator and with the proper image of Him, we are not living in the real world. To be living in a world created by a Divine Mind with a distinct personality, yet not recognizing His role in it, leads to a kind of insanity. We should always be searching for the Truth because it to find it bolsters our relationship with Christ that much more. The more we know of a person the closer we get to them, right? Same with God.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Both can not be true at the same time, that's why it's a faulty translation.

"For by one sacrifice he has made perfect forever those who are being made holy." (NIV)

How about instead of deciding that's too illogical to be true, investigate it to see how it is indeed true despite it's apparent contradiction? And we know it is indeed true because 'are being' is in fact the correct Greek tense in the verse (https://www.blueletterbible.org/kjv/heb/10/1/t_conc_1143014). It's the Greek Present tense, which means this:

"The Greek present tense indicates continued action, something that happens continually or repeatedly, or something that is in the process of happening. If you say, for instance, "The sun is rising," you are talking about a process happening over a period of time, not an instantaneous event. The Greeks use the present tense to express this kind of continued action.

In contrast, Greek uses the aorist tense to show simple action. An aorist verb simply tells you that something happened, with no indication of how long it took. Aorist is like a snapshot; present is like a video."
http://ezraproject.com/id27.html​

So the NIV got it right on this one. And this being true--that our holiness is an ongoing continual process, not a one-time event--it forces us to ask how it is true according to the passage that believers are already made perfect forever (perfect tense) by the one sacrifice of Jesus, yet are being made (present tense) more and more clean and consecrated and perfect in holiness.

I started to type a personal note to you, but then I deleted it. But then I stumbled on this quote of yours you just posted in this very thread:

We should always be searching for the Truth because it to find it bolsters our relationship with Christ that much more. The more we know of a person the closer we get to them, right?

Search out what I said, dadof10.

 

[JLB]

Your thread, justification a process, tells me your teaching that man plays a part in his salvation..

tob

If you believe man plays no part in salvation, then you must believe in universal reconciliation.

Which means everyone no matter what will be saved... obviously this is not the case.

Those who obey the Gospel will be saved.

Mans part is to obey... For He has given us all things that pertain to life and godliness...

as His divine power has given to us all things that pertain to life and godliness, through the knowledge of Him who called us by glory and virtue, 4 by which have been given to us exceedingly great and precious promises, that through these you may be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust.
5 But also for this very reason, giving all diligence, add to your faith virtue, to virtue knowledge, 6 to knowledge self-control, to self-control perseverance, to perseverance godliness, 7 to godliness brotherly kindness, and to brotherly kindness love. 8 For if these things are yours and abound, you will be neither barren nor unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ. 9 For he who lacks these things is shortsighted, even to blindness, and has forgotten that he was cleansed from his old sins. 2 Peter 1:3-9


For if we have escaped the corrupting influences of the world, through this very knowledge of Jesus Christ, and we choose to neglect these things which are our responsibility, what excuse will we have if we are entangled again in the things of this world and are overcome by them?


Peter goes on to explain in the next paragraph of his letter...

For if, after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and overcome, the latter end is worse for them than the beginning. 21 For it would have been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than having known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered to them. 22 But it has happened to them according to the true proverb: “A dog returns to his own vomit,” and, “a sow, having washed, to her wallowing in the mire.”
2 Peter 2:20-22


For it would have been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than having known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered to them.


The Holy Commandment of the Gospel is "Repent for the kingdom of God is at hand".

This is a life long commitment, as such, we are not to turn back to Satan and our former lifestyle.

Repent is the command we obey. The obedience of faith we are called to.

But now is made manifest, and by the scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the everlasting God, made known to all nations for the obedience of faith: Romans 16:26


JLB

 

[dadof10]

But the faith that he had that had works attached did not justify him until Genesis 15:6. This is the sticking point you can't seem to see any other way: Faith does not justify categorically and without exception just because it did something. I proved this to you, but you seem incapable of seeing what I showed you. And that is why it's really pretty meaningless to try to continue to talk to someone who can't see. My responses will be brief for that reason.


Right, he doesn't use the words 'Genesis 15:6'. He directly quotes it: "3 What does Scripture say? “Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness.” (Romans 4:3 NIV)


No, no. That verse does not say Abraham was justified in Genesis 12.
Paul is explaining how the promise comes through the way of faith, not through the way of keeping the law. The context bears this out completely:

"he is the father of all who believe but have not been circumcised, in order that righteousness might be credited to them. 12And he is then also the father of the circumcised who not only are circumcised but who also follow in the footsteps of the faith that our father Abraham had before he was circumcised.

13It was not through the law that Abraham and his offspring received the promise that he would be heir of the world, but through the righteousness that comes by faith. 14For if those who depend on the law are heirs, faith means nothing and the promise is worthless, 15because the law brings wrath. And where there is no law there is no transgression.

16Therefore, the promise comes by faith, so that it may be by grace and may be guaranteed to all Abraham’s offspring—not only to those who are of the law but also to those who have the faith of Abraham. He is the father of us all." (Romans 4:11-16 NIV)

Context, dadof10, context! He is not making the point that Abraham was justified in Genesis 12. He is making the point that the promise comes through faith, not the works of the law. That's all. Read it. And read it without your predetermined doctrine interpreting it for you and making it mean to you what it has already determined ahead of time for you that it means.



Believing that God by his command created what is from what is not is dead faith (no works attached), but it is commendable. But the point that you can not evade is, not all faith that has works attached justifies. I proved this to you. Believing that God is the creator is one of the Biblical examples I gave you right there in Hebrews 11.


You keep creating erroneous inverses out of what I say in an effort to discredit what I say:

I said the chapter is about commendable faith. You twist that to say I said 'all faith is commendable', citing the demons who have faith but who are not commended for that faith to try to discredit what I actually did say, not what you turned it around to say. 'All faith is commendable' is not what I said. There is faith that is commendable, but which does not justify. That I did say.

I say some of the examples of faith in the chapter justified. You twist that to say 'since it's faith it had to justify'. But that is not what I said. That's what you are saying.



Yes, 'commendable' faith. And this is why (I don't make this stuff up):

1 Now faith is confidence in what we hope for and assurance about what we do not see. 2 This is what the ancients were commended for." (Hebrews 11:1-2 NIV)

39 These were all commended for their faith, yet none of them received what had been promised" (Hebrews 11:39 NIV)

It's a chapter about 'commendable' faith. Commendable because it was faith that believed something it could not see and did not receive, and acted accordingly. It's not, as you suggest, a chapter about faith that categorically and without exception justified the person in the exact moment they had that faith.

Now, that's what I'm talking about, this post and the ones that follow. I gave them a cursory reading and they definitely address the topic. Thanks, I appreciate it. I'll be getting back to you either later tonight or tomorrow, got a big day planned.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

If you believe man plays no part in salvation, then you must believe in universal reconciliation.

He probably means man plays no part in salvation as to earning that salvation. Bet you lunch.

 

[JLB]

He probably means man plays no part in salvation as to earning that salvation. Bet you lunch.

Your probably right.

No one can work to earn salvation.

On that I think we all agree.


JLB

 

[turnorburn]

If you believe man plays no part in salvation, then you must believe in universal reconciliation.

Which means everyone no matter what will be saved... obviously this is not the case.

Those who obey the Gospel will be saved.

Mans part is to obey... For He has given us all things that pertain to life and godliness...

as His divine power has given to us all things that pertain to life and godliness, through the knowledge of Him who called us by glory and virtue, 4 by which have been given to us exceedingly great and precious promises, that through these you may be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust.
5 But also for this very reason, giving all diligence, add to your faith virtue, to virtue knowledge, 6 to knowledge self-control, to self-control perseverance, to perseverance godliness, 7 to godliness brotherly kindness, and to brotherly kindness love. 8 For if these things are yours and abound, you will be neither barren nor unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ. 9 For he who lacks these things is shortsighted, even to blindness, and has forgotten that he was cleansed from his old sins. 2 Peter 1:3-9


For if we have escaped the corrupting influences of the world, through this very knowledge of Jesus Christ, and we choose to neglect these things which are our responsibility, what excuse will we have if we are entangled again in the things of this world and are overcome by them?


Peter goes on to explain in the next paragraph of his letter...

For if, after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and overcome, the latter end is worse for them than the beginning. 21 For it would have been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than having known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered to them. 22 But it has happened to them according to the true proverb: “A dog returns to his own vomit,” and, “a sow, having washed, to her wallowing in the mire.”
2 Peter 2:20-22


For it would have been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than having known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered to them.


The Holy Commandment of the Gospel is "Repent for the kingdom of God is at hand".

This is a life long commitment, as such, we are not to turn back to Satan and our former lifestyle.

Repent is the command we obey. The obedience of faith we are called to.

But now is made manifest, and by the scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the everlasting God, made known to all nations for the obedience of faith: Romans 16:26


JLB

Universal salvation is a heresy JLB...

Ephesians 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

tob

 

[JLB]

Universal salvation is a heresy JLB...

Yes, it is, and I have come to expect better things of you.

Ephesians 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

Yes a gift of God that can not be earned.

However, It is our work to believe, and believe to the end.


Otherwise all those who died at the hands of the Vatican, because the would not renounce their faith in Christ, died in vain.

For they could have given in and saved themselves alot of pain and suffering, and still been saved.


JLB

 

[turnorburn]

Yes, it is, and I have come to expect better things of you.



Yes a gift of God that can not be earned.

However, It is our work to believe, and believe to the end.


Otherwise all those who died at the hands of the Vatican, because the would not renounce their faith in Christ, died in vain.

For they could have given in and saved themselves alot of pain and suffering, and still been saved.


JLB

I've never believed in universal salvation, where are you going with this?

tob

 

[turnorburn]

When you said this "However, It is our work to believe, and believe to the end." i had to ask myself if it were possible to ever stop believing, i don't think it can be done, do you?

tob

 

[childeye]

The following is an equivocation: God is both good and evil. Let me rephrase for the sake of clarity what equivocating about God is implying: God is worthy of all of our Love and worship, and yet full of spiteful cruelty.

Only by reasoning upon this equivocation can it be possible to conclude that a man can be justified, and then unjustified, and then justified, and then unjustified, etc... Because for the man to whom this would happen, he would have to trust God, then not trust God, then trust God, then not trust God, etc...That is the predictable conclusion of events for a reasoning based upon the above equivocation. In reality, God is either Good and trustworthy or he is cruel and untrustworthy. He cannot be both.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

The following is an equivocation: God is both good and evil. Let me rephrase for the sake of clarity what equivocating about God is implying: God is worthy of all of our Love and worship, and yet full of spiteful cruelty.

Only by reasoning upon this equivocation can it be possible to conclude that a man can be justified, and then unjustified, and then justified, and then unjustified, etc... Because for the man to whom this would happen, he would have to trust God, then not trust God, then trust God, then not trust God, etc...That is the predictable conclusion of events for a reasoning based upon the above equivocation. In reality, God is either Good and trustworthy or he is cruel and untrustworthy. He cannot be both.

While I believe the scriptures teach that a man cannot be re-justified after losing the justification he has received, how does it make God evil to take back the forgiveness by which a person is justified (Matthew 18:23-35)?

 

[Jethro Bodine]

i had to ask myself if it were possible to ever stop believing, i don't think it can be done, do you?

Do you think Jesus was just speaking hypothetically here?

"13“Those on the rocky soil are those who, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no firm root; they believe for a while, and in time of temptation fall away." (Luke 8:13 NIV)

 

[turnorburn]

I've never quit believing even in a backslid state, does that mean my salvation is null and void?

tob

 

[childeye]

While I believe the scriptures teach that a man cannot be re-justified after losing the justification he has received, how does it make God evil to take back the forgiveness by which a person is justified?

First off God is never evil. This scripture I believe speaks to your question.
Matthew 18:33-35King James Version (KJV)
33 Shouldest not thou also have had compassion on thy fellow servant, even as I had pity on thee?

34 And his lord was wroth, and delivered him to the tormentors, till he should pay all that was due unto him.

35 So likewise shall my heavenly Father do also unto you, if ye from your hearts forgive not every one his brother their trespasses.

 

[Rollo Tamasi]

Do you think Jesus was just speaking hypothetically here?

"13“Those on the rocky soil are those who, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no firm root; they believe for a while, and in time of temptation fall away." (Luke 8:13 NIV)

Your answer is right there.
They have no firm root.
You can say you believe something all you want, but if you have no firm root, then it's easy to just walk away.
A flower is not a flower until the plant produces a flower, then it is a flower.
You can call the green stem growing out of the ground a flower if you want, but I don't see it.

 

[JLB]

When you said this "However, It is our work to believe, and believe to the end." i had to ask myself if it were possible to ever stop believing, i don't think it can be done, do you?

tob

Jesus teaches us that there are indeed some who believe for awhile, then in time of persecution, like the example I gave you of the Martyrs of the inquisitions, will fall away.

12 Those by the wayside are the ones who hear; then the devil comes and takes away the word out of their hearts, lest they should believe and be saved. 13 But the ones on the rock are those who, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, who believe for a while and in time of temptation fall away.
Luke 8:12-13


A person who believes, then later on no longer believes is called an
un-believer.

Believe = Saved

Believe for a while = Saved for a while


JLB

 

[turnorburn]

Is this going to turn into a different topic?

tob

 

[turnorburn]

Jesus teaches us that there are indeed some who believe for awhile, then in time of persecution, like the example I gave you of the Martyrs of the inquisitions, will fall away.

12 Those by the wayside are the ones who hear; then the devil comes and takes away the word out of their hearts, lest they should believe and be saved. 13 But the ones on the rock are those who, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, who believe for a while and in time of temptation fall away.
Luke 8:12-13


A person who believes, then later on no longer believes is called an
un-believer.

Believe = Saved

Believe for a while = Saved for a while


JLB

have you ever backslid?

tob