The Pros & Cons of Preterism

[jasoncran]

i went to my pastor in love privatly and approached him on pre-trib, we had a great conversation, I respect him greatly. He has not yet changed his position but i see some movement from his sermons, as now he is teaching that we as christians will/do face tribulation.

you know i have never heard that we christians wont, but heres a pastor that did say that in america we will face it sooner or later and he is most pre-trib. my pastor says that we will as well.its when God's wrath is when they say that we wont.

listen to the ones dated the 28th of april.

Calvary Chapel Bangor Maine | Radio Broadcasts

 

[Stormcrow]

if the pastor cherry picks a verse and it make sense on the surface they buy it.

I think this happens for 2 reasons:

1. not enough gifted teachers in the church;
2. a culture saturated with post-modern, New Age and Occult influences infiltrating our pulpits and Sunday schools.

When there is as much discussion in churches and on Christian fora - like this - regarding "the Apocalypse", and much of it is expressed in terms more like that of the Mayan 12/21/2012 nonsense, then it really isn't hard to see how popular culture has influenced people's understanding of the Bible.

When I was growing up in the 60s and 70s, Edgar Cayce was all the rage, and his garbage was discussed more at church meetings than was the Bible (except Revelation, of course, just to see how it lined up with Cayce's and Jeanne Dixon's predictions!)

In my home, my parent's library consisted - in part - of the Bible, Edgar Cayce's works, Jeanne Dixon, and Hal Lindsey's "Late, Great Planet Earth". The Bible was the least read book of the bunch.

As a teen, I dabbled in Tarot cards, Ouija Boards, astrological signs and Horoscopes. We used to participate in these activities in some of our church-sponsored youth group meetings, where parents thought they were merely a "playful diversion." When I became a Christian, I saw the danger in these things and renounced and repented of them. That's how deep and wide such ignorance is in the church!

What I see in many of the posts I've read on my various stints at Christian fora - like this - is a harmful mix of Biblical and historical ignorance, combined with cultural and linguistic ignorance.

Let me give you an example that we see here often:

{14} "This gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in the whole world as a testimony to all the nations, and then the end will come. Matthew 24:14 (NASB)

No one can argue that Christ was speaking these words directly to His disciples when He spoke them, yet today's "churchgoers" see the words "whole world" and "all the nations" and take them 2,000 years out of the context in which they were intended or spoken! And "the end" is viewed through the same 21st century lens as these other words, meaning that "the end" could only mean to them what "we" believe it means: the end of the physical world as "we" know it!

This "everything in the Bible is about me and the world I live in" approach to Biblical interpretation would be laughable if it weren't so spiritually dangerous, because such a blatantly arrogant and ignorant approach to hermeneutics blinds people to the truths contained in its pages!

It's like saying, "I know you said that to those folks, God, but we both know you really meant it for me!"

It's very hard to break through this kind of ignorance when it's elevated to the level of dogma within some churches. And - as you correctly noted - the problem isn't just in the pews; it's behind the pulpits, too.

 

[jasoncran]

exegesis. exegesis when done properly must include the proper audience that the prophecy or statement was stated too in order to be addressed. while i am not sold on your views on eschatology.i am not as dogmatic as i was a few months ago.when the lord does return he will come in such a way that the church will be what?? that isnt how i thought it would be.

just look at the they way the jews in christ days reacted to him. they didnt recognise him yet when we read the old testament its plain as day that he was the man to be the messiah. we really only know so much on this things.

 

[warhorse]

you know i have never heard that we christians wont, but heres a pastor that did say that in america we will face it sooner or later and he is most pre-trib. my pastor says that we will as well.its when God's wrath is when they say that we wont.

listen to the ones dated the 28th of april.

Calvary Chapel Bangor Maine | Radio Broadcasts

The suffering of the church is rarely taught. Most pre-trib churches dont spend much time on the endurance, and suffering of the church. And the pre-trib position itself starts with
1 thess 5v9 For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,
Taking it out of context and using it to establish the churches need to be removed early.

 

[jasoncran]

The suffering of the church is rarely taught. Most pre-trib churches dont spend much time on the endurance, and suffering of the church. And the pre-trib position itself starts with
1 thess 5v9 For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,
Taking it out of context and using it to establish the churches need to be removed early.

i have never confused wrath of god with the persecution of the churches worldwide.that would be alabaster.i do know a friend in church that believes that. he does see that the church wont suffer. i corrected him on the past and he agreed and also stated why does it say that the dragon made war with the saints and he overtakes them? meaning he kills them? hello isnt that TRIBULATION?!!the great trib to me means that the whole world will hate christians and the jews will at first hate us then the ac will turn on them and they will be like us as they now have confessed as a nation JESUS! and will die for that and be surrounded by the army of the ac in the battle of armameggidon. as i stated earlier the saints in the trib are part of the bride. i cant say that they will be excluded from the wedding feasts since they werent raptured. also i do believe the the church wont be hear when God judges man. the question for me is when the lord removes us is it when the ac declares himself God or before that.

 

[Stormcrow]

while i am not sold on your views on eschatology.i am not as dogmatic as i was a few months ago.

It's taken me the better part of four years of intensive self-study to arrive where I am now, and believe me, it wasn't easy to get here. I was a dyed-in-the-wool pre-tribber and pre-millenialist, with a heavy dose of dispensationalism thrown in.

What started changing my mind - very gradually - was the view of a messianic Jew on another board who convinced me that Daniel 9:27 didn't mean what I'd always been taught to believe it meant. Once that brick fell out of the wall, everything else started to fall.

 

[warhorse]

It's taken me the better part of four years of intensive self-study to arrive where I am now, and believe me, it wasn't easy to get here. I was a dyed-in-the-wool pre-tribber and pre-millenialist, with a heavy dose of dispensationalism thrown in.

What started changing my mind - very gradually - was the view of a messianic Jew on another board who convinced me that Daniel 9:27 didn't mean what I'd always been taught to believe it meant. Once that brick fell out of the wall, everything else started to fall.

I came to many of the same conclusion you have storm. Just me, the holy spirit and My kjv bible. Its written plainly in the scriptures once the heart is determined to find truth.

 

[jasoncran]

I came to many of the same conclusion you have storm. Just me, the holy spirit and My kjv bible. Its written plainly in the scriptures once the heart is determined to find truth.

you are millenist are you not? i know that some of the reformers in the 19th century were ardent millenialists.

 

[warhorse]

you are millenist are you not? i know that some of the reformers in the 19th century were ardent millenialists.

Yes i am still premillinial. I guess if i were to break it down i would be a non-dispensational premilliniallist. Partial preterist, expecting a post-tribulational return. A tribulation that started with the death of steven and ends with a rapture like event on the day of the lord, when God pours out his wrath.

 

[reba]

Yes i am still premillinial. I guess if i were to break it down i would be a non-dispensational premilliniallist. Partial preterist, expecting a post-tribulational return. A tribulation that started with the death of steven and ends with a rapture like event on the day of the lord, when God pours out his wrath.

Thanks for the smile

 

[warhorse]

Thanks for the smile

laugh if you want too

 

[Lehigh3]

I'm definitely "pro" preterism! I feel blessed to have come to the truth in this life now. Eternal life & abundance begins now! The Holy Spirit is present right now!

The Road Back to Preterism A Brief History of Eschatology and the Church


Kurt Simmons

Sun, 05 Mar 2006 18:05:00 +0000
In this article we briefly explore the history of eschatological interpretation in the church, its origin, departure, and return to Preterism.

 

[reba]

9 - Please keep posts down to a respectable length and provide source and/or links for your info. We want to respect copyrighted material. Plus, you stand a better chance of getting your post read if it contains a link with an excerpt from source that's relative to your point.

 

[Lehigh3]

The Road Back to Preterism ~

I hadn't just supplied the link bc although Kurt Simmons is a full preterist, almost all other preterists(& part-prets) do not agree with him disjointing scripture with his bi-millennium theory. He is excellent here in Eschatological church history - & I think some may find this interesting- so I will provide the link So truth be known, there is no reason to sever satan's binding in the 26-66AD "thousand years" (so the nations could receive the gospel) from the 40 yr.approx. period for the millennium, when the martyrs did reign of thronesas judges of the law & the the tribes of Israel, according to the laws of Christ.
So the time & the place is the same for both. Kurt does see Revelation's theme & knows of its recapitulating chapters. Such is chapter 20 in Revelation for Kurt's book, "Consummation of the Ages" - though, should be missed.
Otherwise, I was glad I ordered the book. Only ch.20 is overlooked.
The Road Back to Preterism A Brief History of Eschatology and the Church

"A few chapters later, Origen states: We do not deny, then, that the purificatory fire and the destruction of the world took place in order that evil might be swept away, and all things be renewed; for we assert that we have learned these things from the sacred books of the prophets…And anyone who likes may convict this statement of falsehood, if it be not the case that the whole Jewish nation was overthrown within one single generation after Jesus had undergone these sufferings at their hands. For forty and two years, I think after the date of the crucifixion of Jesus, did the destruction of Jerusalem take place.†[17]

“All things renewed†refers to Rev. 21:5, and shows Origen understood that Revelation spoke to the destruction of Jerusalem and that we are living in the new heavens and earth. "

 

[Alabaster]

Re: The Road Back to Preterism ~

I hadn't just supplied the link bc although Kurt Simmons is a full preterist, almost all other preterists(& part-prets) do not agree with him disjointing scripture with his bi-millennium theory. He is excellent here in Eschatological church history - & I think some may find this interesting- so I will provide the link So truth be known, there is no reason to sever satan's binding in the 26-66AD "thousand years" (so the nations could receive the gospel) from the 40 yr.approx. period for the millennium, when the martyrs did reign of thronesas judges of the law & the the tribes of Israel, according to the laws of Christ.
So the time & the place is the same for both. Kurt does see Revelation's theme & knows of its recapitulating chapters. Such is chapter 20 in Revelation for Kurt's book, "Consummation of the Ages" - though, should be missed.
Otherwise, I was glad I ordered the book. Only ch.20 is overlooked.
The Road Back to Preterism A Brief History of Eschatology and the Church

"A few chapters later, Origen states: We do not deny, then, that the purificatory fire and the destruction of the world took place in order that evil might be swept away, and all things be renewed; for we assert that we have learned these things from the sacred books of the prophets…And anyone who likes may convict this statement of falsehood, if it be not the case that the whole Jewish nation was overthrown within one single generation after Jesus had undergone these sufferings at their hands. For forty and two years, I think after the date of the crucifixion of Jesus, did the destruction of Jerusalem take place.†[17]

“All things renewed†refers to Rev. 21:5, and shows Origen understood that Revelation spoke to the destruction of Jerusalem and that we are living in the new heavens and earth. "

I don't believe that Origen believed we are living in the New Earth. He attested to the destruction of Jerusalem and the diaspora.

Preterism takes it from there and twists scripture to its own short-sighted advantage.

 

[Sinthesis]

Re: The Road Back to Preterism ~

I don't believe that Origen believed we are living in the New Earth. He attested to the destruction of Jerusalem and the diaspora.

Preterism takes it from there and twists scripture to its own short-sighted advantage.

To what advantage exactly?:dunno

 

[Alabaster]

Re: The Road Back to Preterism ~

To what advantage exactly?:dunno

Who knows? To believe we are already in the Millennium, where Satan is bound, and some believe that sin is absent, and there is no war on earth, and all prophecy has been fulfilled is reckless and ignorant. Nothing could be further from the truth.

It's a pipe dream. Look around you---the world teems with sin and degradation and war after war!!

The Bride has not enjoyed her wedding, nor her feast, nor has she received her rewards, nor is she yet ruling with Christ as He promises.

Preterism appears to me to be the devil's way to wrest away the urgent message of salvation. Why would anyone have a burden for the lost if they have missed the coming of the Lord? After all, we are living in an idyllic age with no Satan or sin...eh?

The advantage is only in the minds of those who concocted this abysmal belief, who have a poor grasp of the word.

 

[Stormcrow]

Preterism appears to me to be the devil's way to wrest away the urgent message of salvation.

So let me get this straight: the only advantage for the preterist is that he (or she) is a "tool of Satan" destined to burn in the same fiery hell every other unsaved sinner is?

If that's an "advantage", I'd like to see your idea of being disadvantaged.

 

[jasoncran]

So let me get this straight: the only advantage for the preterist is that he (or she) is a "tool of Satan" destined to burn in the same fiery hell every other unsaved sinner is?

If that's an "advantage", I'd like to see your idea of being disadvantaged.

she is mainly adressing full preterism. alabaster needs to differiante between partial and full.

 

[Stormcrow]

I'd be careful about using Origen as a source. The guy had some pretty heretical ideas:

For Origen, God was the First Principle, and Christ, the Logos, was subordinate to him.[9] His views of a hierarchical structure in the Trinity, the temporality of matter, "the fabulous preexistence of souls," and "the monstrous restoration which follows from it" were declared anathema in the 6th century.[10]
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