The Protestant Pope and The Passion

[GodsGrace]

Unfortunately I didn't write the seeming "Roman" false theological beliefs all down at the times so its not easy to remember on the spot.
There are of course the well known things like popes, Christmas, Easter, saints, Sunday "sabbath", Mary, confession, clerical celebacy, etc. These things even occur in Protestant churches to some extant.

There's a reason why the CC ended up with a Pope. However, those that are willing to be intellectually honest will know that Peter was not the first Pope. If I remember correctly, the first Pope was not until 600 to 800AD. Can't stop to look it up. I also cannot get into the reason UNLESS you're really interested.

Christmas was to combat a pagan belief and to replace it with a Christian one.
The CC, through St. Francis of Assisi, gave us the manger. There was also a reason for this. It was to teach the book of Luke to people that were illiterate and could not know their religion except for visual aids.

No problem with Easter. I don't know why it's on the list. The date/day was changed so that all Catholic churches in the world could celebrate Easter on the same Sunday...thus the Passover of the Jewish Calendar is not adhered to.

Sunday Sabbath. Jesus was resurrected on a Sunday.
We celebrate His resurrection, as the early church did, including the Apostles. There are threads on this...I won't debate it on here. If a person wants to celebrate on Saturday, that's fine with me. Every day is the Lord's Day.

Confession: Jesus said we are to confess our sins in John 20:23. The early church had confession, but the form has changed over the years.

Clerical Celebacy: Easier to concentrate on the problems of the congregation and parish. No one forces a man to become a priest and some like not being married. Paul said not to marry if one can live with that

But I don't just mean these things.
There are other "theological"-like things I noticed in pastors sermons etc but its hard for me to remember examples. It is sort of like not being much about Jesus or God or bible etc but being more fake artificial human worldly efforts/morals (like the human traditions and legalism of the Scribes and Pharisees), and individualism.

What you heard is practical application of the bible.
We should read the bible and be familiar with our faith...but we also have to live it.
Unfortunately, Catholics have just begun studying the bible so the priest does the best he can with what he has.
Don't morals make up the major part of the N.T.?
All Jesus spoke about was how we are to be a member of the Kingdom of God.
(as did the writers of the N.T.).

I'm sure, however, that Jesus was mentioned many times - if not, it's the shortcoming of the priest.

And a sort of false dualistic views of what is "good"/orthodox and "evil"/heretical.

Don't know what you mean by this.

And as I said in another topic/thread how there is so much negative-like self-suffering poverty-gospel slave-mentality. Sort of like using religion as a "straight jacket" way to control people, and/or mixing with pre-christian pagan (Roman) or evolution, or wolves in sheeps clothing.
And I could maybe also add many christians relegating people to "mental health" services.
I also noticed a sort of Communistic or Atlantean or globalistic trend/strain in some churches eg Peoples Assemblies in Wales, Jehovahs Witnesses.

Yes.
Sometimes we need mental help.
You may not agree, which is OK. Maybe you've never suffered any mental distress.

Cain - Abel
works/earn - faith
law - grace
sacrifice - mercy/lovingkindness
flesh/carnal - spirit
heavy/hard - light/easy
Mammon/world - God
old/666 - new/888
shallow/external - deep/internal
slave/bond - free
cold/lukewarm - hot
goat - sheep
tares - wheat
fig leaf breeches - skins
external law - law written in heart
external circumcision - circumcised heart
baker - cupbearer
letter of law - spirit of law
imitate/copy/pretend - real/born/One
Pharisee - tax collector
refuse to look at serpent on cross - looked at serpent on cross
thief on left side of Jesus/Cross - thief on right side
cargo overboard - Jonah overboard
Baal "master/lord" - Ishi "husband"
Sardis - Philadelphia "brotherly love"
force/laws - rebirth/genetics
knowledge puffs up - love edifies
sand - rock

Nice list!

 

[Christ_empowered]

I'm with wondering on the need for...some sort of authority structure in Protestantism. a semi-local megachurch reorganized (post-scandal...-sigh-...) and declared their head pastor or something to be "Jesus," and....???

I didn't think much of it. I thought...maybe it was kind of a way to try to show humility? I don't go there, so...OK, have at it, kids. But then, I started reading stuff about that move on The Internet, and...

wow. the catholic sites, in particular, were -not pleased- . "arrogant," stuff like that. Then, I stopped to actually think about it, a bit more in depth, and...

ugh. without being too critical, it seems that a good church is really just trying to convey The Good News as faithfully as possible, both the fun stuff everybody likes (miracles! Heaven!) and other, less palatable aspects (Hell! persecution! "away from me, ye workers of iniquity!," etc.), and so...

yeah. yeah. especially with some Christians saying that Jesus apparently wants us to shred the safety net and let everybody (and their mama) carry a gun everywhere...while others think the gov't should provide a safety net and reduce mass incarceration, etc....


I -definitely- see a need for an authority structure.

 

[GodsGrace]

I'm with wondering on the need for...some sort of authority structure in Protestantism. a semi-local megachurch reorganized (post-scandal...-sigh-...) and declared their head pastor or something to be "Jesus," and....???

I didn't think much of it. I thought...maybe it was kind of a way to try to show humility? I don't go there, so...OK, have at it, kids. But then, I started reading stuff about that move on The Internet, and...

wow. the catholic sites, in particular, were -not pleased- . "arrogant," stuff like that. Then, I stopped to actually think about it, a bit more in depth, and...

ugh. without being too critical, it seems that a good church is really just trying to convey The Good News as faithfully as possible, both the fun stuff everybody likes (miracles! Heaven!) and other, less palatable aspects (Hell! persecution! "away from me, ye workers of iniquity!," etc.), and so...

yeah. yeah. especially with some Christians saying that Jesus apparently wants us to shred the safety net and let everybody (and their mama) carry a gun everywhere...while others think the gov't should provide a safety net and reduce mass incarceration, etc....


I -definitely- see a need for an authority structure.

OK CE....
You're one of the few who really UNDERSTOOD the O.P.

I see things happening that cry out for some kind of logical leadership - somehow - some way.

Things are getting sadly ridiculous - beyond just disagreements on doctrine; that is not really a problem since some of the N.T. is very difficult to translate and understand, I'm talking about basic things.

Like bibles being published that are written by one man and his opinions and which become bests-sellers.
What do they teach?
What will our young learn in these progressive churchs?

 

[Corn Pop]

me either as I have Christ and His word through the Holy Spirit that can only reveal truth

There is all the information in the NT that i dont need a leader or someone telling me what it already says no one can add anything more. If i have a question i can just ask someone who reads there bible that might have a better understanding , it dont need to be the pope or a pastor.

 

[GodsGrace]

There is enough information in the NT that i dont need a leader or someone telling me what it already says. If i have a question i can just ask someone who reads there bible that might have a better understanding , it dont need to be the pope or a pastor.

What about everybody else?
What about Christianity in general?

 

[Corn Pop]

What about everybody else?
What about Christianity in general?

The gospel is not a denomination, the kingdom of god is many individuals around the world in the body of Christ.

 

[Christ_empowered]

-sigh- I dunno, man. lol. Some kind of authority structure would be awesome, but...

so, what? The US (I live in the US, so I'm using it as an example...) is currently experiencing -serious- and relatively rapid declines in membership, even in the more conservative denominations, such as the SBC. This is significant because the traditional, "mainline" denominations (Presby, Episcopalian, I think Methodists made the list?) have been steadily losing -lots- of members...

for decades. Especially the ones that are now more center-left to "progressive" (PCUSA, Episcopalian)...those are now looking at the distinct possibility of actual extinction in the decades to come. and...

OK, so now it seems that the conservative established churches aren't doing so well, either. people just...have other things to do, I suppose.

Point: at least here in the US, -all- churches are getting more polarized and dogmatic and fighting more over social issues...

while dealing with fewer members, and I think I read that (predictably) funds are starting to dry up, too. ugh.

so, OK. Establish a good, solid authority structure in a denomination that's good on doctrine, to start with. And...

so, what? lose some more members from the get go, then lose more over the years to come, in all likelihood. its a mix of secularization (its not just Christians losing members....people want answers from pop psychology, the medical establishment, and a hodgepodge of new age ideas, it seems) and...

having options, I suppose? I live in the "Bible Belt." it..well, like anywhere else, it has its ups and downs. It is what it is, I guess. OK. even here, the pressure to be in church as a mark of respectability is much, much lower now. and the expectation that being in a church should somehow result in a change in behavior is...well, minimal, except that apparently Christian=GOP, as best I can tell.

I think it is probably much more pronounced, elsewhere. Not that other regions are godless (LOL), just...different cultures, subcultures, demographics. The pressure never was as intense, to begin with.

As a Protestant Christian, I would like to see an authority structure in place. Then again...

As a Protestant Christian who is also something of a permanent pariah here and probably all over society, I'd like to be able to be in church and participate, fully...and I kinda doubt that will happen. Not to pity party and such...happens, I'm thinking that's part of the reason the established churches are losing members...its just frustrating and sad, in some respects.

 

[Bob Carabbio]

This is not true.
If you meet a protestant,,,you have to ask what "kind".

Don't be ridiculous. All I have to know is that they ain't Catholics.

Every catholic is the same "kind".

Don't be ridiculous. ROMAN Catholics are actually the FIRST "Protestants" since they tossed the "Orthodox" Denominations under the bus back in 1050, and grabbed the primacy for themselves. And there are plenty of different "Catholic" denominations, some of which don't get along all that well - like the Sedevacantists, the Catholic Fundamentalists, the ones that reject V2, etc.

Also,,,what do you think the OP is about?

Apparently obsessing about a new supposedly corrupt Bible version, and the ridiculous suggestion that "Protestants" need a "Pope". Actually it's Roman Catholics that need a "Pope" who's quite possibly nothing more than a non-Christian "Universalist".

 

[WIP]

OK CE....
You're one of the few who really UNDERSTOOD the O.P.

I see things happening that cry out for some kind of logical leadership - somehow - some way.

Things are getting sadly ridiculous - beyond just disagreements on doctrine; that is not really a problem since some of the N.T. is very difficult to translate and understand, I'm talking about basic things.

Like bibles being published that are written by one man and his opinions and which become bests-sellers.
What do they teach?
What will our young learn in these progressive churchs?

The difficulty is that Protestants have a history of independence. They are quick to leave and form another protestant denomination when things don't go exactly as they want. This is partly why we have so many denominations.

Just in the Lutheran church, there are many variations. For example. The Lutheran Church Missouri Synod, like the Catholic church, does not allow open communion. If you're not a member of the LCMS, you are not welcome to partake of the Eucharist so I, being a member of a Lutheran church but not LCMS, would not be welcomed to partake of the Eucharist in an LCMS worship service or a Catholic mass. Here's another example. The Lutheran Brethren denomination, like the Catholic church, does not acknowledge women pastors or elders (deacons). Even in our own church, where we are in the process of searching for a new pastor, there are some in our congregations that are hesitant to consider female pastors. The Catholic church is actually considering making changes with regard to female deacons.

Getting all protestants to agree on a central chain of command, so-to-speak, would be a pipe dream I'm afraid.

 

[GodsGrace]

The difficulty is that Protestants have a history of independence. They are quick to leave and form another protestant denomination when things don't go exactly as they want. This is partly why we have so many denominations.

Just in the Lutheran church, there are many variations. For example. The Lutheran Church Missouri Synod, like the Catholic church, does not allow open communion. If you're not a member of the LCMS, you are not welcome to partake of the Eucharist so I, being a member of a Lutheran church but not LCMS, would not be welcomed to partake of the Eucharist in an LCMS worship service or a Catholic mass. Here's another example. The Lutheran Brethren denomination, like the Catholic church, does not acknowledge women pastors or elders (deacons). Even in our own church, where we are in the process of searching for a new pastor, there are some in our congregations that are hesitant to consider female pastors. The Catholic church is actually considering making changes with regard to female deacons.

Getting all protestants to agree on a central chain of command, so-to-speak, would be a pipe dream I'm afraid.

You might know that a Deacon is only one year away from being a priest and they can do everything except confession and
consecration of the eucharist. If it were not for this Pope, I doubt female Deacons would be considered since it's just a step away from a female priest.
I don't believe females should be authority figures in the church - for a few reasons.

As to communion...I'd have to agree that only members of a certain denomination, whatever it is, should be allowed to receive communion...
I mean....If one is not a Catholic or Lutheran, they will not share the same beliefs about communion as others...Luther believed in either transubstantiation or the Real Presence - can't remember right now. Ditto for Catholics. Someone that considers communion just a ritual, should not be receiving with persons that believe they are receiving the Body of Christ.

As to getting everyone to agree: Although this is not the point of the O.P., I do believe that Christians should be more united in their beliefs.
Seems like the more time goes by, the more we disagree - as you've stated. This is so much what Jesus did not want.

 

[GodsGrace]

Don't be ridiculous. All I have to know is that they ain't Catholics.

So you think a calvinist christian is the same as a pentecostal christian?

Don't be ridiculous. ROMAN Catholics are actually the FIRST "Protestants" since they tossed the "Orthodox" Denominations under the bus back in 1050, and grabbed the primacy for themselves. And there are plenty of different "Catholic" denominations, some of which don't get along all that well - like the Sedevacantists, the Catholic Fundamentalists, the ones that reject V2, etc.

Were the Orthodox tossed out?
I thought they left of their own accord because of 2 reasons...
1. The filioque in the Creed.
2. The authority figure of the Pope.

Apparently obsessing about a new supposedly corrupt Bible version, and the ridiculous suggestion that "Protestants" need a "Pope". Actually it's Roman Catholics that need a "Pope" who's quite possibly nothing more than a non-Christian "Universalist".

I'm not obsessing about a new version.
I'm stating a problem that it brings to light.
If you don't agree, that's fine.

 

[GodsGrace]

-sigh- I dunno, man. lol. Some kind of authority structure would be awesome, but...

so, what? The US (I live in the US, so I'm using it as an example...) is currently experiencing -serious- and relatively rapid declines in membership, even in the more conservative denominations, such as the SBC. This is significant because the traditional, "mainline" denominations (Presby, Episcopalian, I think Methodists made the list?) have been steadily losing -lots- of members...

for decades. Especially the ones that are now more center-left to "progressive" (PCUSA, Episcopalian)...those are now looking at the distinct possibility of actual extinction in the decades to come. and...

OK, so now it seems that the conservative established churches aren't doing so well, either. people just...have other things to do, I suppose.

Point: at least here in the US, -all- churches are getting more polarized and dogmatic and fighting more over social issues...

while dealing with fewer members, and I think I read that (predictably) funds are starting to dry up, too. ugh.

so, OK. Establish a good, solid authority structure in a denomination that's good on doctrine, to start with. And...

so, what? lose some more members from the get go, then lose more over the years to come, in all likelihood. its a mix of secularization (its not just Christians losing members....people want answers from pop psychology, the medical establishment, and a hodgepodge of new age ideas, it seems) and...

having options, I suppose? I live in the "Bible Belt." it..well, like anywhere else, it has its ups and downs. It is what it is, I guess. OK. even here, the pressure to be in church as a mark of respectability is much, much lower now. and the expectation that being in a church should somehow result in a change in behavior is...well, minimal, except that apparently Christian=GOP, as best I can tell.

I think it is probably much more pronounced, elsewhere. Not that other regions are godless (LOL), just...different cultures, subcultures, demographics. The pressure never was as intense, to begin with.

As a Protestant Christian, I would like to see an authority structure in place. Then again...

As a Protestant Christian who is also something of a permanent pariah here and probably all over society, I'd like to be able to be in church and participate, fully...and I kinda doubt that will happen. Not to pity party and such...happens, I'm thinking that's part of the reason the established churches are losing members...its just frustrating and sad, in some respects.

I'm conflicted --- just as it seems to me that you are.

 

[hawkman]

We may be needing a Protestant Pope soon.

Now I get it ! Let me rephrase your question .

We may be needing a Pope to lead the Protestant Church on the whole . Correct ?

I thought you were saying the Catholic Church needed a Protestant Pope .

We do have a leader of the Protestant church The Holy Spirit , but sadly the many factions are not following the leading of the Holy Spirit .

 

[GodsGrace]

Now I get it ! Let me rephrase your question .

We may be needing a Pope to lead the Protestant Church on the whole . Correct ?

I thought you were saying the Catholic Church needed a Protestant Pope .

We do have a leader of the Protestant church The Holy Spirit , but sadly the many factions are not following the leading of the Holy Spirit .

LOL - coffee always helps!

Which faction decides who's right???

And, yes, hawkman,,,NOW you understand the O.P. !

Someone should have the authority to state that The Passion (Bible) is not legitimate and that it shouldn't be used.
Someone should have the authority to state whether or not OSAS is a correct doctrine. (teaching).
etc.

If the Holy Spirit were the leader...why do we all believe something different??

 

[Christ_empowered]

division upon division seems to be a core feature of Protestantism, I'm afraid. :-(

of course, the catholic church keeps various factions within the fold (officially), as another poster has already pointed out.

-shrug- NT speaks of the wheat and the tares, growing together till harvest time. still true, of course.

 

[Bob Carabbio]

So you think a calvinist christian is the same as a pentecostal christian?

The key word is "Christian" - which implies that the person has been BORN AGAIN of the Holy Spirit. So ABSOLUTELY - they're the same. Some Calvinists are Born Again Christians, and some Calvinists, are nothing but "Calvinists". Same goes for all denominations.

Were the Orthodox tossed out?
I thought they left of their own accord because of 2 reasons...
1. The filioque in the Creed.
2. The authority figure of the Pope.

That's the Roman Catholic version. Rome tossed 'em because they wouldn't accept Roman Primacy, and Roman Catholicism has always been "Our way or the Highway". Roman Catholicism, after all, is still proclaiming themselves to be the "ONE TRUE CHURCH". Fortunately they no longer DESTROY anybody who gets in their way. That's progress.

I'm not obsessing about a new version.
I'm stating a problem that it brings to light.
If you don't agree, that's fine.

I couldn't care less about "just another" new version, or Supposed problems it "brings to light".

The REAL LEADERSHIP in the REAL Christian church (not the denominational mess across the world) has never changed. He's ALWAYS BEEN the Holy Spirit indwelling and guiding Individual Christians - who ARE the "One true church". We humans need to "institutionalize" everything, and manufacture our OWN leadership - and create nothing but confusion.

 

[hawkman]

If the Holy Spirit were the leader...why do we all believe something different??

So many put their trust in what mere men ( that are in positions of Church authority ) tell them without making sure what they are being told is what the Word of God actually says . If you are being preached to and the preacher does NOT give you the chapter and verse he is working from , beware !

“For as much as this people draw near Me with their mouth, and with their lips do honor Me, but have removed their heart far from Me, and their fear toward Me is taught by the precept of men” (Isaiah 29:13).

The problem is not with The Holy Spirit but the problem is with man ! Because as we know in this verse .

https://biblehub.com/hebrews/13-8.htm

 

[Bob Carabbio]

If the Holy Spirit were the leader...why do we all believe something different??

If our "Leaders" rely on their own understanding and (shudder) their "Theology", what do you expect??

God will let us dig our own graves with our "human wisdom" - and sure enough in the Institutional churches (regardless of "label") - we did. The leader of the Roman Catholic Corp. appears to be a non-Christian Universalist.

Jesus told us that we were to take HIS YOKE upon US (not the "Baptist Yoke", or the "Catholic Yoke" - HIS YOKE). And learn of HIM.

 

[Walpole]

I admire you for posing the question and starting this thread. The reality is in Protestantism, each individual adherent is in essence his own pope. Because Protestantism has no organ, body or mechanism who can define and declare what is or is not the faith of Protestantism, it becomes entirely subjective. Each individual Protestant becomes his own determiner (and actual creator) of truth. He / she decides what is or is not the Christian faith for himself.

This is the end result of replacing the authority of the Church and trying to supplant it with sola scriptura. It simply doesn't work. We know from history that when the Protestant religions first started, they rapidly began dividing because this doctrine they built their religion around is not able to resolve any doctrinal disagreements. Thus by the end of the 16th century (the century in which the Protestant religions began), there were already over 300 different sects. Because Protestantism does not have a living authority to resolve exegetical disagreements, the fruit of this doctrine has been the continual division with the ultimate authority resting not in the Scriptures alone to decide what is or is not the faith, but rather in the subjective interpretation of the Scriptures by each individual adherent.

 

[for_his_glory]

In my imagination I see Jesus sitting at the right hand of God asking Him "God what are these denominations/non-denominations these people speak of as they are foreign to my true Church"