The rapture of the Church

[Gabbylittleangel]

One quick question, for anyone to answer for me, especially Lyle Cooper from Oklahoma:

What is the definition of God's wrath?

God's wrath is what Jesus bore on the cross for me.

 

[lecoop]

One quick question, for anyone to answer for me, especially Lyle Cooper from Oklahoma:

What is the definition of God's wrath?

God's wrath is what we read about from Rev. 6:12 through Rev 19. Go and read it, and learn what God's wrath is.

I know that what we read on these pages is not a "definition" of God's wrath, but rather, examples of His wrath. However, with these examples, you can create your own definition.

Coop

 

[lecoop]

God's wrath is what Jesus bore on the cross for me.

Great answer, Gabbylittleangel!

Coop

 

[lecoop]

Thank you Coop for your candor. Very Caveman-like of you. At least now I can understand your mentality. It is very easy to summarize a mind and spirit like yours. Unteachable. You already know all the answers. You have no need to learn anything from anyone. So you therefore see no need to even consider that they could teach you something.

Bury your head in the sand and ignore what you don't understand. You fit right in with those who would kill the prophets because they didn't like what they were told. You will be guilty like the rest of them.

:smt043 :smt043 :smt043 :smt043 How funny! Ben! It is not at all that I am unteachable: it is that I will ONLY be taught truth! I spent too many years learning half-truths, and man's opinions, passed off as truth. When I meet someone who teaches truth, I am all ears!

Coop

 

[Jay T]

They are all of God. That is Wrath, not tribulation.

Plus, you did suggest a 7 year tribulation, just by the way you answered Jay.

Jay T wrote:
Yes, I'm very interested in how some people even get a 7 year Trib. out of the Bible.

lecoop wrote:
It is really very simple: Daniel said it would be one peroid of 7....

Scripture please ?

As I don't recall Daniel ever saying that.

Still looking for a 7 year Trib. that is found in the Bible.

 

[lecoop]

[quote="Vic C.":a8147]They are all of God. That is Wrath, not tribulation.

Plaus, you did suggest a 7 year tribulation, just by the way you answered Jay.

Jay T wrote:
Yes, I'm very interested in how some people even get a 7 year Trib. out of the Bible.
Scripture please ?

As I don't recall Daniel ever saying that.

Still looking for a 7 year Trib. that is found in the Bible.

[/quote:a8147]

Dan 9
"27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week [seven]:

Coop

I guess you were not interested enough in an answer to your question to research what John wrote. Therefore, I will make it even more plain.

As I was reading about the abomination in Daniel, the HOLY SPIRIT spoke up in my spirit, and said, "you could find that exact midpoint, 'clearly marked' in the book of Revelation. When I mentioned an event that will start at the midpoint of the week, and go to the end of the week, I always mentioned the 3 1/2 year period of time. Therefore, when you find these mentions of the 3 1/2 years, you will be very close to the midpoint of the week." [End of quote]

I am assuming that you do have some basic skills in arithmatic. Now, if an event starts at the "midpoint" of a period of time, and goes for 3 1/2 years, as the HS said, wouldn't it be very easy to multiply this 3 1/2 years by two, to get the whole period of time? [This is not to mention that the Holy Spirit Himself mentioned "week," and midpoint.]

Coop

 

[Jay T]

Dan 9
"27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week [seven]:

Where is the rest of the scripture verse which explains what is going on ?
9:24 Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.
9:25 Know therefore and understand, [that] from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince [shall be] seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times.
9:26 And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof [shall be] with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.
9:27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease,
This very verse tells us that the sacrificial system was then abolished, Because Jesus Christ WAS the GREAT sacrificial Lamb....which died upon the cross...'in the midst of the week' (3 1/2 years).

This whole Daniel 9:24-27 is talking about Jesus Christ, the Messiah.

Don't you know that Jesus taught for 3 1/2 years before HIS crucifixtion ?
AND...the last 3 1/2 years was spent teaching the Jews UNTIL Stevens death, which THEN completed the 7 years.

AND ONLY THEN....the Gospel, went to the Gentiles.

 

[Vic C.]

Coop, after reading Newton and some others of the Historical position, this position does have some merit. Nowton's position differs from Jay's. Newton sets the end to the 70th. week with Cornelius, not Stephen... very minor difference.

 

[BenJasher]

Coop,

If you are so interested in learning Truth, what are you doing in the Futurist camp?

That's a whole lot the same as trying to squeeze blood from a turnip, ain't it? A more accurate portrayal of that would be someone looking for a diamond in a pig's snout.

And why do you keep trying to tell us what the Holy Spirit spoke to you? Is it to give credence to your boyhood fantasies of a Rapture?

I can relate to that if what you are really looking for is some worthwhile fellowship. But there is a more effective way of finding that.

Bottom line is what the Lord speaks to you weighs less than nothing in these discussions. Your testimony of what the Lord says is unreliable, and suspect at best.

But my testimony of what the Lord spoke to me would weigh less than nothing and have no bearing on the discussion at hand. It would therefore be a waste of my time to tell the rest here what the Holy Spirit spoke to me.

*posted edited by Mod, 1/11/07*

 

[Zero Link]

Hey man chill out! Even though he has his beliefs, I have my beliefs and you have yours.. It doesn't mean you can call him a jerk. Not only is that offensive, its childish aswell. Now this whole rapture thing is really getting out of hand. At first it was just a debate topic but now people are starting to insult eachother. Do you think God wants you to insult Lecoop? He "may" be posting false information, then again it could be the truth, either way it go if you don't like it don't call him a jerk.. How would you feel if I said, "Ben, it is unnecessary for me to call you an idiot, being that you are one.. Therefore i won't publicly state it on here.)<< not that you are an idiot, you are very smart(to my knowledge :P ) but thats just an example. Two wrongs don't make a right, it just puts a smile on the devil's face. Is that what you want? Think about that before using insulting words again.

*posted edited by mod, 1/11/07*

 

[Jay T]

What I want to know is.....why do people put a 2000 year gap between the 69th week and the 70th week ?

I learned in school, that 70 follows 69 immediately !

 

[lecoop]

Coop,

If you are so interested in learning Truth, what are you doing in the Futurist camp?

That's a whole lot the same as trying to squeeze blood from a turnip, ain't it? A more accurate portrayal of that would be someone looking for a diamond in a pig's snout.

And why do you keep trying to tell us what the Holy Spirit spoke to you? Is it to give credence to your boyhood fantasies of a Rapture?

I can relate to that if what you are really looking for is some worthwhile fellowship. But there is a more effective way of finding that.

Bottom line is what the Lord speaks to you weighs less than nothing in these discussions. Your testimony of what the Lord says is unreliable, and suspect at best.

But my testimony of what the Lord spoke to me would weigh less than nothing and have no bearing on the discussion at hand. It would therefore be a waste of my time to tell the rest here what the Holy Spirit spoke to me.

If a brother in Christ tells us that God spoke to him, it would be wise to listen and see if what was said, lines up with scripture. Why? Because the church was, is and shall be built on revealed knowledge. We all don't get the same revealed knowledge. God is pouring out revealed knowledge as never before.

Personally, I could care less if you believe what the HS said to me. I did not just write something that was not related to scripture. If someone said to me, "God just told me that the moon really is made of cheese," I would undoubtedly walk the other way quickly! However, if someone gives me revelation knowledge related to scripture, I listen and compare what is said with other scriptures.

When He spoke to me, He related what He said to verses in the bible. He pointed to scripture and told what He meant when He caused that scripture to be written. If you don't want to receive that, or believe it, that is between you and God. I put it out here for the readers.

Just to add a little logic to this, why would the Holy Spirit have pointed to these five scriptures where John gives us a three and one half year period, and mention an event that starts at the midpoint of a future week, and goes to the end of that same future week, IF THIS WAS ALL ACCOMPLISHED SOME TIME IN OUR PAST????????? Think about it.

Coop

*post edited by mod, 1/11/07*

 

[lecoop]

What I want to know is.....why do people put a 2000 year gap between the 69th week and the 70th week ?

I learned in school, that 70 follows 69 immediately !

Why did Jesus stop quoting with:

Luke 4
"to preach deliverance to the captives, and recovering of sight to the blind, to set at liberty them that are bruised, To preach the acceptable year of the Lord."

Why did Jesus not finish the sentence from Isaiah?

Isa. 61 "...to proclaim liberty to the captives, and the opening of the prison to them that are bound; To proclaim the acceptable year of the LORD, and the day of vengeance of our God; to comfort all that mourn;

Why indeed? Because the part of this prophecy that Jesus read, pertained to Jesus first coming. The rest of the sentence, pertains to His second coming! There was and is about 2000 years between these two parts of Isaiah's sentence!

Jesus went on to say that the part He read, was being fulfilled right in front of them. He could not have said that, if He had finished the sentence.

Why then, would you have a problem with a gap between the 69th week and the 70th week? Especially, if that "gap" was a special dispensation that allowed YOU a chance into heaven?

Coop

 

[Jay T]

Why did Jesus stop quoting with:

Luke 4
"to preach deliverance to the captives, and recovering of sight to the blind, to set at liberty them that are bruised, To preach the acceptable year of the Lord."

Why did Jesus not finish the sentence from Isaiah?

Isa. 61 "...to proclaim liberty to the captives, and the opening of the prison to them that are bound; To proclaim the acceptable year of the LORD, and the day of vengeance of our God; to comfort all that mourn;

Why indeed? Because the part of this prophecy that Jesus read, pertained to Jesus first coming. The rest of the sentence, pertains to His second coming! There was and is about 2000 years between these two parts of Isaiah's sentence!

Jesus went on to say that the part He read, was being fulfilled right in front of them. He could not have said that, if He had finished the sentence.

Why then, would you have a problem with a gap between the 69th week and the 70th week? Especially, if that "gap" was a special dispensation that allowed YOU a chance into heaven?

Coop

BECAUSE there is no such thing as 69th'week' + 2000 = 70th 'week'.

70 always follows 69.
Otherwise, it would be the 2070th week.

 

[Vic C.]

As you may see, I edited out some derogatory comments from one post and all quotes which referenced the comment were edited as well.

Ben, do not continue to post in a manner that will personally incite other to post back. :x

Zero, thanks for your concerns, but I have to ask tat the Mods be the ones to step up and remind members of the rules of conduct. All do have the right to PM a mod or Admin about an infraction. Thanks again.


Coop, just for the record, a completed 70th. does not negate the possibility of future events like wrath, harpazo and His Second coming. That would be the Preterist's position, not the views of the historists'.

 

[lecoop]

As you may see, I edited out some derogatory comments from one post and all quotes which referenced the comment were edited as well.

Ben, do not continue to post in a manner that will personally incite other to post back. :x

Zero, thanks for your concerns, but I have to ask tat the Mods be the ones to step up and remind members of the rules of conduct. All do have the right to PM a mod or Admin about an infraction. Thanks again.


Coop, just for the record, a completed 70th. does not negate the possibility of future events like wrath, harpazo and His Second coming. That would be the Preterist's position, not the views of the historists'.

However, when John gives is five (5) different verses, with the 3 1/2 year time frame, all shown in his book to take place just before His coming, and all shown to be the last half of a period of seven, this sure seems to be great proof that indeed the 70th week is still in our future.

Coupled with that, all the events shown in Revelation that have not yet happened, again points to these events being in our future. Sorry, but my mind will not bend far enough to believe in a preterest possibility. : -))

Coop

 

[MrVersatile48]

I realise that Ben has a book to sell, but the saving of @ 6 billion souls is far more important than any money to be made from giving folk the false hope that everything in Revelation happened 2000 years ago & there is nothing now to fear: 'the fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom'

Revelation 6:8 forecasts 25% of mankind to die in war, famine, pestilence & by the wild beasts

Revelation 6:8 (New International Version)

8I looked, and there before me was a pale horse! Its rider was named Death, and Hades was following close behind him. They were given power over a fourth of the earth to kill by sword, famine and plague, and by the wild beasts of the earth.


Revelation 9:13-18 predict 33% of mankind die in war begun at R Euphrates

Revelation 9:13-18 (New International Version)
New International Version (NIV)
Copyright © 1973, 1978, 1984 by International Bible Society



13The sixth angel sounded his trumpet, and I heard a voice coming from the horns[a] of the golden altar that is before God. 14It said to the sixth angel who had the trumpet, "Release the four angels who are bound at the great river Euphrates." 15And the four angels who had been kept ready for this very hour and day and month and year were released to kill a third of mankind. 16The number of the mounted troops was two hundred million. I heard their number.

17The horses and riders I saw in my vision looked like this: Their breastplates were fiery red, dark blue, and yellow as sulfur. The heads of the horses resembled the heads of lions, and out of their mouths came fire, smoke and sulfur. 18A third of mankind was killed by the three plagues of fire, smoke and sulfur that came out of their mouths.


Revelation 16 & Joel 3 & Zechariah 14 are Armageddon - all waters poisoned, all vegetation burnt, sun scorching folk, etc

None of those things happened 2000 years ago - they still ain't happened - but only this climax generation, leading to Christ's return & the consummation of all things, has all the techno to do them all, & we see the stage set ready

Back Fri to print the clear Rapture scriptures too, as to deny God's Word is to call God a liar - 'let God be true & all men liars'



Ian

 

[Vic C.]

...Coupled with that, all the events shown in Revelation that have not yet happened, again points to these events being in our future. Sorry, but my mind will not bend far enough to believe in a preterest possibility. : -))

Coop

This is where you are mistaken. Please read what I posted again.

Coop, just for the record, a completed 70th. week does not negate the possibility of future events like wrath, harpazo and His Second coming. That would be the Preterist's position, not the views of the historists'.


What Jay and Newton propose is NOT preterism. It is a historical view. Big difference, as I pointed out. Prets will say it ALL happened already, even the Second advent.

 

[BenJasher]

I apologize to the board. And to Coop. I should not have said those things. Even without the TOS, I should not have said those things.

However, contrary to Ian's summation of my upcoming book, which he has not yet read, my motive is not dollar signs, nor recognition. It isn't even in print yet. So therefore most of what he said about my book was wasted. Although, I am not clear what it was he intended to get across with all of what he wrote.

For future reference: I am not a Preterist. At least not a full, or radical Preterist I use the term Preterist because that is what people know and understand. What I claim to be is an Historicist.

It doesn't take much common sense to see that all of what has been prophesied has not come to pass yet. So I am not, nor cannot be a Full Preterist. And it only takes a simple overview of History to see that much of what is being proponed by others to be yet future is already Historical Fact. All it really takes to see this is to be teachable, and to be able to see that you could be wrong about some things.

If you are the type that is never wrong, or you aren't teachable, you will continue to hurtle headlong in your unbelief and delusion. And your arrogance will prevent those who would, from helping you.

 

[lecoop]

I apologize to the board. And to Coop. I should not have said those things. Even without the TOS, I should not have said those things.

However, contrary to Ian's summation of my upcoming book, which he has not yet read, my motive is not dollar signs, nor recognition. It isn't even in print yet. So therefore most of what he said about my book was wasted. Although, I am not clear what it was he intended to get across with all of what he wrote.

For future reference: I am not a Preterist. At least not a full, or radical Preterist I use the term Preterist because that is what people know and understand. What I claim to be is an Historicist.

It doesn't take much common sense to see that all of what has been prophesied has not come to pass yet. So I am not, nor cannot be a Full Preterist. And it only takes a simple overview of History to see that much of what is being proponed by others to be yet future is already Historical Fact. All it really takes to see this is to be teachable, and to be able to see that you could be wrong about some things.

If you are the type that is never wrong, or you aren't teachable, you will continue to hurtle headlong in your unbelief and delusion. And your arrogance will prevent those who would, from helping you.

You are "preaching to the choir." I have got beat up over and over on other forums to even suggest that the first five seals are history. Oh, I even got kicked off of one, because they claimed that I was a "partial preterist."

I will agree with what you said, to this extent: I can see that the first five seals have already happened. History shows us. We are now waiting on the rapture of the church, and the sixth seal.

Coop