The rapture of the Church

[lecoop]

Revelation 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and [I saw] the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received [his] mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
20:5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This [is] the first resurrection.
20:6 Blessed and holy [is] he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

This Bible verse points out that there is ONLY ONE resurrection for the Righteous people.........and those who died during the Mark of the Beast Reign are in that group.

Jesus was also in that first resurrection group!
And the church shall be in that goup!
And the two witnesses will be in that group!
And the 144,000 will be in that group!
Probably all those born again during the first half of the 70th week will be in that group.

All these will be a part of that "first resurrection."

The first resurrection is a "righteous" resurrection. The second resurrection (associated with the second death) is for "the rest of the dead."

Coop

 

[BenJasher]

Coop,

Stop and think for a moment. All the righteous dead will be in the first resurrection. From Adam to the end, from the first to the last, they all stand in the first resurrection. Yet the angel speaking with John tells him that these all come from the great tribulation.

Rev 7:9 After these things I saw, and behold, a great multitude, which no man could number, out of every nation and of all tribes and peoples and tongues, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, arrayed in white robes, and palms in their hands;
Rev 7:10 and they cry with a great voice, saying, Salvation unto our God who sitteth on the throne, and unto the Lamb.
Rev 7:11 And all the angels were standing round about the throne, and about the elders and the four living creatures; and they fell before the throne on their faces, and worshipped God,
Rev 7:12 saying, Amen: Blessing, and glory, and wisdom, and thanksgiving, and honor, and power, and might, be unto our God for ever and ever. Amen.
Rev 7:13 And one of the elders answered, saying unto me, These that are arrayed in white robes, who are they, and whence came they?
Rev 7:14 And I say unto him, My lord, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they that come of the great tribulation, and they washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

Note: this passage starts with the words; "after these things..." indicating that this passage is separate from the passage before where the 144 thousand were sealed from the 12 tribes of the Nation of Israel. This multitude is different. They are not solely from the 12 tribes of Israel, but from every tongue, tribe people and nation. They all wear robes that have been washed white by the blood of the Lamb. And the thing that is pronounced upon them in the verses that follow cannot mean anything other than that they are resurrected. But for some reason, John doesn't focus on that part here.

How about that? The Great Tribulation has persisted so far for over 5000 years. Maybe even as much as 6000 years. That's a lot longer than a mere seven years, ain't it?

The Second Resurrection may not mean what you have always been taught that it means either. But I can't speak of that here. Just suffice it to say that what is written about the Second Resurrection in plain black and white, even in the English, tells something different than what is taught about it. Pay close attention to the details. And that is where I have to stop. I can't go any further.

 

[lecoop]

Coop,

Stop and think for a moment. All the righteous dead will be in the first resurrection. From Adam to the end, from the first to the last, they all stand in the first resurrection. Yet the angel speaking with John tells him that these all come from the great tribulation.

I agree. Nothing to disagree about. The first resurrection is for the righteous.

Note: this passage starts with the words; "after these things..." indicating that this passage is separate from the passage before where the 144 thousand were sealed from the 12 tribes of the Nation of Israel. This multitude is different. They are not solely from the 12 tribes of Israel, but from every tongue, tribe people and nation. They all wear robes that have been washed white by the blood of the Lamb. And the thing that is pronounced upon them in the verses that follow cannot mean anything other than that they are resurrected. But for some reason, John doesn't focus on that part here.

Of course this great group is a separate group from the 144,000. They are numbered; the great crowd is too big to number! Or course they are resurrected! As Paul said, " the dead in Christ shall rise first..." But some of this great crowd was not resurrected, but changed: as Paul said again, "we which are alive and remain...shall be caught up." This great crowd is none other than the raptured church of Jesus Christ.

How about that? The Great Tribulation has persisted so far for over 5000 years. Maybe even as much as 6000 years. That's a lot longer than a mere seven years, ain't it?

This may be stretching it, don't you think? "Great tribulation," as a phrase, is used only three times in the book, and two of those three, to mean the great persecution during a part of the last half of the 70th week. I will agree that "tribulation" has been ongoing ever since Adam sinned, because Satan is the God of this world.

Coop

 

[BenJasher]

Coop;

I will make this mercifully short. Obviously you didn't catch the gist of what I wrote. Like I said, pay attention to details.

This great throng of people are from all ages. From Old Testament saints to the saints of the New Testament, this throng is made up up of saints from all time, both before Christ and afterwards.

It is the height of New Testament arrogance against the Old Testament to think that this body of people would consist only of New Testament Saints. Do not the Old Testament Saints qualify for the resurrection of the righteous? Or do they get left out for some reason? Hebrews 11:40 states that they without us cannot be made perfect. So no reasonable argument can be made to exclude them.

Yet, the Elder talking with John tells him;

These are they that come of the great tribulation, and they washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

Therefore, the Great Tribulation has had to have been in process for nearly 6000 years.

Like we say in the litigation business: "God is in the details."

Although I will have to modify my earlier statement that this throng is resurrected by saying that if nothing else, they have been promised such. But that by no means changes the fact that the Elder states that these people came from the Great Tribulation.

One last thing: Being the esteemed and astute Bible Scholar that you are, give me chapter and verse that tells us that the "Tribulation Period" has to be seven years long.

 

[lecoop]

Coop;

I will make this mercifully short. Obviously you didn't catch the gist of what I wrote. Like I said, pay attention to details.

This great throng of people are from all ages. From Old Testament saints to the saints of the New Testament, this throng is made up up of saints from all time, both before Christ and afterwards.

It is the height of New Testament arrogance against the Old Testament to think that this body of people would consist only of New Testament Saints. Do not the Old Testament Saints qualify for the resurrection of the righteous? Or do they get left out for some reason? Hebrews 11:40 states that they without us cannot be made perfect. So no reasonable argument can be made to exclude them.

Yet, the Elder talking with John tells him;



Therefore, the Great Tribulation has had to have been in process for nearly 6000 years.

Like we say in the litigation business: "God is in the details."

Although I will have to modify my earlier statement that this throng is resurrected by saying that if nothing else, they have been promised such. But that by no means changes the fact that the Elder states that these people came from the Great Tribulation.

One last thing: Being the esteemed and astute Bible Scholar that you are, give me chapter and verse that tells us that the "Tribulation Period" has to be seven years long.

Let's call it "Daniel's 70th week." That title alone should answer your question. It is a period of sevens. This is proven over and over, when Daniel and John tell us that the last half of the week will be 1260 days, or 42 months, or time, times, and half of time.

Dan 12:7
Dan 7:25
Rev 11:2
Rev 11:3
Rev 12:6
Rev 12:14
Rev 13:5

Seven verses tell us that Daniel's 70th week is a week of 7 years. This is why it is called a week, and why it is called "Jacob's trouble. How long did Jacob have to work each time for a wife? Seven years twice!


Perhaps, if you think the old testament saints are included in this great crowd without number, you could show me where in scripture they were resurrected? (It would have to be before the 70th week starts.)

Will they be included in the rapture of the church? Paul said, "the dead in Christ shall rise first..."

Coop

 

[Vic C.]

Actually, I started chatting with people from Israel, for the express purpose of seeing what they though about "Michael stand up." I ask them if there was any way that this in their Hebrew Tanack could mean "stand still," or cease to act on their behalf....

Conflict of opinions, I suppose. The few Jewish people I work with say that Rashi was one of the most educated and well respected Hebrew scholars of his time.

... I suspect that Rashi is the only one in Israel that believes "stand up" means to "sit down," or become inactive.

I wouldn't make that supposition just yet. Are you aware he has been dead for some 7 to 8 hundred years? But of course we shouldn't entertain his thoughts; he wasn't "inspired", was he? ;-) That would be like asking a Christian scholar what a 2nd. or 3rd. century B.C. writer had in mind when Daniel's words were written.

Oh wait!... 8-)

 

[BenJasher]

Well, Actually Coop;

That the Tribulation Period lasts only 7 years is an extrapolation of scripture that is stretching things pretty far.

"Jacob's Trouble" refers to a time period in his life when he was being mistreated by his father-in-law. He made an agreement with Laban to work for 7 years for Rachel. But when his time was up, Laban tricked him and he ended up with Leah. He had to work another 7 years for Rachel. So Jacob's Troubles have stretched to 14 so far. Yet noone teaches that the Tribulation period lasts 14 years. In all, Jacob worked for Laban for 21 years, before he finally had enough and left. Yet noone teaches a 21 year tribulation period either. So using "Jacob's Trouble" to support a seven year Tribulation Period doesn't hold much water.

Using Daniel's 70th week to support a 7 year Tribulation Period ends up being speculative and of private interpretation. There is no clear inference in the explanation of the 70 weeks that this last week should last 7 days, 7 years, 49 years, 490 years, or 7000 years. It could be any one of those if we add Peter's thoughts into the equation. It is only by the salesmanship of the pundits of the Rapture Theory that most of you folks think that the Tribulation Period lasts only 7 years.

I am still looking for chapter and verse Coop. I am certain you can do better that this.

 

[BenJasher]

Only 20 more posts and Vic jr will have 10,000 posts so far.

Won't that qualify for a bronze plaque or something? :smt017

 

[Vic C.]

I am convinced that John has shown is the effects of the rapture, in Rev. 7, the great crowd in heaven. If you disagree, let's dig deep in those verses, and see what we find.

:o I can't even believe you suggested I may disagree. 8-) Do you understand the basic premises of PreWrath?

Promise - 1 Thessalonians 5:9

Wrath - Revelation 6:17

It's "effect" due to promise - Revelation 7:9-14

8-)

 

[Vic C.]

Using Daniel's 70th week to support a 7 year Tribulation Period ends up being speculative and of private interpretation. There is no clear inference in the explanation of the 70 weeks that this last week should last 7 days, 7 years, 49 years, 490 years, or 7000 years. It could be any one of those if we add Peter's thoughts into the equation. It is only by the salesmanship of the pundits of the Rapture Theory that most of you folks think that the Tribulation Period lasts only 7 years.

The duration of Tribulation is worth exploring from scripture and worthy of discussion one day. You are correct; it could be any of the durations of time you posted. It could be about 2,000 years or so as we speak. ;-) It could also be that the 70th. week has past and an upcoming (or occurring) Trib period, apostasy, wrath, etc. is an unspecified period of time of it's own.

Only 20 more posts and Vic jr will have 10,000 posts so far.

Won't that qualify for a bronze plaque or something? :smt017

It only proves that I have too much time on my hands... and too much mayo and ketchup on my keyboard for trying to type and eat at the same time. LOL

Actually, the # of posts I have means squat to me. 8-)

 

[BenJasher]

I need to get back to work.

To be honest, I am not convinced that 7 years isn't significant. But I am convinced that it is past.

:smt040 Hehe...

How long was the siege of Jerusalem by the armies of Titus, history fans? :smt040

 

[Vic C.]

Sorry to hog the thread, but...

Mr. Ben, let me refresh your memory. You said this to Mr. V on the second or third page...

Quote:
Jesus said 'cut short (by the Rapture) for the sake of the elect, otherwise no-one would be left alive'
(emphasis added for clarity)

It is completely wrong, incorrect, unethical, and irresponsible (again, reference Ted Haggard) for a Teacher of the scriptures to append the scripture like you did just then. That scripture has no reference to the rapture. Not under any pretense of circumstance.

Above, on this page, you attempted to do the very same thing! :smt018

Unless someone has any ideas about this happening somewhere off in the future sometime, let me begin on this scripture by saying that the woman here is the Bride of Christ, the Nation of Israel. The New Testament Church was born from her. The Man-Child (the Body of Christ) was brought forth from her in great pangs of birth. The Man-Child she gave birth to has been caught up to heaven by the spirit of God. Even Paul declares to us that we are seated in heavenly places at the right hand of God, and that our citizenship is in the heavenlies.

The verse in question:

Rev 12:5
5 And she bore a son, a male, who is going to shepherd all the nations with an iron staff. And her child was caught away to God, and to His throne. (litv)

No mention of The Body here. Yes, "she" is Israel, no argument from me. But we have "son" and male"; both singular, one masculine; one neuter... this is Jesus. He is the shepherd. Now we have "who is going to"; future tense. "all the nations" or all the people; pick your definition of nations. The child was "caught away" (there it is again) "to His throne".

Acts 1:9 And when he had spoken these things, while they beheld, he was taken up; and a cloud received him out of their sight.

... and He shall return in the same manner:

Acts 1:11 Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven.

The Body of Christ is:

17 And the dragon was enraged over the woman, and went away to make war with the rest of her seed, those keeping the commandments of God, and having the testimony of Jesus Christ. (litv)

There we are; the Body keeps the commandments of God and the testiminy (or covenant) of Christ.

 

[Vic C.]

I need to get back to work.

To be honest, I am not convinced that 7 years isn't significant. But I am convinced that it is past.

:smt040 Hehe...

How long was the siege of Jerusalem by the armies of Titus, history fans? :smt040

Seven months.

 

[BenJasher]

Sorry to hog the thread, but...

Mr. Ben, let me refresh your memory. You said this to Mr. V on the second or third page...



The verse in question:

Rev 12:5
5 And she bore a son, a male, who is going to shepherd all the nations with an iron staff. And her child was caught away to God, and to His throne. (litv)

No mention of The Body here. Yes, "she" is Israel, no argument from me. But we have "son" and male"; both singular, one masculine; one neuter... this is Jesus. He is the shepherd. Now we have "who is going to"; future tense. "all the nations" or all the people; pick your definition of nations. The child was "caught away" (there it is again) "to His throne".

Acts 1:9 And when he had spoken these things, while they beheld, he was taken up; and a cloud received him out of their sight.

... and He shall return in the same manner:

Acts 1:11 Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven.

The Body of Christ is:

17 And the dragon was enraged over the woman, and went away to make war with the rest of her seed, those keeping the commandments of God, and having the testimony of Jesus Christ. (litv)

There we are; the Body keeps the commandments of God and the testiminy (or covenant) of Christ.

Ok, no argument from me about Jesus being the Man-Child the woman gave birth to. I agree with that 100%. No problem. He fulfills that prophetic vision with out failing in the slightest detail. Thanks for bringing that up.

(This is so easy a caveman could do it) :smt040

However, the Body of Christ does so as well. Collectively, we are male. And collectively we are the Son. Collectively we also fulfill the prophetic vision of being birthed from the Woman without failing in the smallest detail; just as Jesus did.

I apologize for the appearance of appending the scriptures to meet my own theological needs, but I assure you that I was not appending anything.

So what do we call this, a draw? We are both right, and we are both wrong, but the differences between you and me are nil dicit.

 

[BenJasher]

Seven months.

:smt040 (I like that smilie for some reason...)

Is that by counting each day as a thousand years, or a thousand years as a day?
:smt040

Actually I had it in my head that in the fall of Jerusalem, there would be a seven year period of time that was clearly identifiable.

But I was possum hunting with the neighbor's coon dog again, so never mind.

 

[Vic C.]

:smt040 (I like that smilie for some reason...)

Is that by counting each day as a thousand years, or a thousand years as a day?
:smt040

Actually I had it in my head that in the fall of Jerusalem, there would be a seven year period of time that was clearly identifiable.

But I was possum hunting with the neighbor's coon dog again, so never mind.

First off, I thought I was going to get beat down for misspelling testimony. :

Now, smiley face aside, I think you were confusing the Roman occupation in 63 with the siege of 70. I guess we could count this seven year period as the the one in question, but for the ones that insist the Daniel's prophecy be consecutive years, this won't work.

 

[lecoop]

Only 20 more posts and Vic jr will have 10,000 posts so far.

Won't that qualify for a bronze plaque or something? :smt017

10,000? Can anyone live long enough to make 10,000 posts? How old are you, Vic? At one post a day, that is something like 27 years of posting! Maybe that will be a Guinness record?

Coop

 

[lecoop]

Well, Actually Coop;

That the Tribulation Period lasts only 7 years is an extrapolation of scripture that is stretching things pretty far.

I don't think that seven scriptures, all giving us the last half of the week as 3 1/2 years, is "stretching" things at all! I am just surprised that you don't see it, since God has made it so clear.

"Jacob's Trouble" refers to a time period in his life when he was being mistreated by his father-in-law. He made an agreement with Laban to work for 7 years for Rachel. But when his time was up, Laban tricked him and he ended up with Leah. He had to work another 7 years for Rachel. So Jacob's Troubles have stretched to 14 so far. Yet noone teaches that the Tribulation period lasts 14 years. In all, Jacob worked for Laban for 21 years, before he finally had enough and left. Yet noone teaches a 21 year tribulation period either. So using "Jacob's Trouble" to support a seven year Tribulation Period doesn't hold much water.

Jacob loved Rachel so much that he agreed to work for seven years for her. Laban tricked him into the SECOND 7 years, which was his "trouble." He loved Rachel so much the first seven years not "trouble" at all.

Using Daniel's 70th week to support a 7 year Tribulation Period ends up being speculative and of private interpretation. There is no clear inference in the explanation of the 70 weeks that this last week should last 7 days, 7 years, 49 years, 490 years, or 7000 years. It could be any one of those if we add Peter's thoughts into the equation. It is only by the salesmanship of the pundits of the Rapture Theory that most of you folks think that the Tribulation Period lasts only 7 years.

Did you at all go and read these seven scriptures? It is Daniel plus revelation that gives us seven proofs of the seven years. Let's go through the math one more time. The Holy Spirit spoke to me, the day that I was reading about the abomination being in the "midst" of the 70th week. At the moment, the HS said to me, "You could find that exact midpoint 'clearly marked' in the book of Revelation."

I stood by and watched as my spirit man ask the HS, "How would I find that exact midpoint?"

The HS answered: "Whenever I mentioned an event that will start at the midpoint and go to the end of the week, I always mentioned a time frame of 3 1/2 years. When you find these mentions of the 3 1/2 years, you will be very close to the exact midpoint." Then, almost as an after thought, He said, "you could also find the entire 70th week of Daniel 'clearly marked' in Revelation."

So if we have five different mentions of the 3 1/2 years (half of seven) in Revelation, each one about an event that will start at the midpoint and go to the end of the week, then we have five proof texts that the entire week will be 7 years. (3.5 times two = 7) (1260 days times two = 2520 days divided by 360 = 7) (42 months times two = 84 months divided by 12 = 7)
God did this in days, months, and years, just so that we would not miss it - - yet people continue to miss it! Believe it!

I am still looking for chapter and verse Coop. I am certain you can do better that this.

I gave you seven. That is sufficient if you will read, understand, and believe.

Coop

 

[lecoop]

:o I can't even believe you suggested I may disagree. 8-) Do you understand the basic premises of PreWrath?

Promise - 1 Thessalonians 5:9

Wrath - Revelation 6:17

It's "effect" due to promise - Revelation 7:9-14

8-)

FINALLY!!! Someone agrees with me! Hallelujah! :smt041 :angel: :multi: :smt041

 

[lecoop]

Sorry to hog the thread, but...

Mr. Ben, let me refresh your memory. You said this to Mr. V on the second or third page...



The verse in question:

Rev 12:5
5 And she bore a son, a male, who is going to shepherd all the nations with an iron staff. And her child was caught away to God, and to His throne. (litv)

No mention of The Body here. Yes, "she" is Israel, no argument from me. But we have "son" and male"; both singular, one masculine; one neuter... this is Jesus. He is the shepherd. Now we have "who is going to"; future tense. "all the nations" or all the people; pick your definition of nations. The child was "caught away" (there it is again) "to His throne".

Acts 1:9 And when he had spoken these things, while they beheld, he was taken up; and a cloud received him out of their sight.

... and He shall return in the same manner:

Acts 1:11 Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven.

The Body of Christ is:

17 And the dragon was enraged over the woman, and went away to make war with the rest of her seed, those keeping the commandments of God, and having the testimony of Jesus Christ. (litv)

There we are; the Body keeps the commandments of God and the testiminy (or covenant) of Christ.

Great post Vic! We are in agreement here.

Coop