The rapture of the Church

[BenJasher]

Ian,

For one thing: Revelation is not to be understood literally. If you are looking for a literal fulfillment to the things said there, you could end up waiting a very long time.

But lets you and I take a look at Revelation 9:13-18, shall we? The multiple use of one simple Greek word in that passage will put a different light on this passage for you.

And the sixth messenger did sound, and I heard a voice out of the four horns of the altar of gold that is before God,

saying to the sixth messenger who had the trumpet, `Loose the four messengers who are bound at the great river Euphrates;'

and loosed were the four messengers, who have been made ready for the hour, and day, and month, and year, that they may kill the third of men;

and the number of the forces of the horsemen [is] two myriads of myriads, and I heard the number of them.

And thus I saw the horses in the vision, and those sitting upon them, having breastplates of fire, and jacinth, and brimstone; and the heads of the horses [are] as heads of lions, and out of their mouths proceedeth fire, and smoke, and brimstone;

by these three were the third of men killed, from the fire, and from the smoke, and from the brimstone, that is proceeding out of their mouth,

Fire, smoke and Brimstone. These are all symbols of the person and presence of God Himself. He even claims to be these things. And these words are used to describe the riders of the 2 myriad of myriads of horses. Hmm...

The fact that this fire and smoke and Brimstone comes out of their mouth indicates a spoken word. Again, Hmm...

Things that make you go...Hmm...

Let me ask you a question here: Could it possibly be that these horsemen are the Sons of God; and that the one third of men that were killed by these horsemen are the wicked that are to be destroyed at the appearing of the Son of Man?

Brimstone: Greek Theion It is the adjective form of the Greek word for God. We call it Sulfur. We call it brimstone. We call it lots of things, but in the Greek mind at that time it signified Divinity and cleansing: Purification.

Not only that; but there is only one source of Brimstone: God Himself.
Brimstone and fire flow like a torrent from before His Throne. His breath is likened to a streaming torrent of Brimstone. He is Brimstone. There are quite a few scriptures that clearly speak this.

Hmm...

 

[BenJasher]

You are "preaching to the choir." I have got beat up over and over on other forums to even suggest that the first five seals are history. Oh, I even got kicked off of one, because they claimed that I was a "partial preterist."

I will agree with what you said, to this extent: I can see that the first five seals have already happened. History shows us. We are now waiting on the rapture of the church, and the sixth seal.

Coop

Maybe there is hope for you yet.

Do I understand you to say that you at one time were a "partial Preterist" but you aren't any longer, that you are now a Futurist? You have given me a lot of gruff in the past for my Preteristic viewpoints, so I have to ask.

:smt075

 

[lecoop]

For one thing: Revelation is not to be understood literally.

Oh, really? And we are to take your word on this? Haven't you seen a beastie with 7 heads and ten horns? :smt043 :smt043 :smt043

Of course some of the book cannot be taken literally. But some of it can be, and should be.

Coop

 

[lecoop]

Let me ask you a question here: Could it possibly be that these horsemen are the Sons of God; and that the one third of men that were killed by these horsemen are the wicked that are to be destroyed at the appearing of the Son of Man?

No, it is not possible. These beasties do their work towards the end of the first 3 1/2 years of the 70th week of Daniel. Jesus rides the white horse after the end of the 70th week, a little over 3 1/2 years after these beasties do their work.

Coop

 

[lecoop]

Maybe there is hope for you yet.

Do I understand you to say that you at one time were a "partial Preterist" but you aren't any longer, that you are now a Futurist? You have given me a lot of gruff in the past for my Preteristic viewpoints, so I have to ask.

Not at all. I said I have been "called" a "partial preterist," because I insist that the first five seals have already been broken. I call myself a pre-wrath - pre-tribber.

Coop

 

[BenJasher]

Coop;

Come on now! For it to not be possible would be to ignore the evidence as given. And there is plenty of it.

Do you really want to just ignore what was given to us in order to be able to hang onto your own delusion?

Could you expect a fair trial if the jury had made up their minds to find you guilty, and to not even consider any evidence that would exonerate you?



Fair and impartial. That's what I like it about you.

 

[BenJasher]

Oh, really? And we are to take your word on this? Haven't you seen a beastie with 7 heads and ten horns? :smt043 :smt043 :smt043

Of course some of the book cannot be taken literally. But some of it can be, and should be.

Coop

I am a beastie with 7 heads and 10 horns. Haven't you noticed? Ask my wife, she will tell you.

 

[lecoop]

Coop;

Come on now! For it to not be possible would be to ignore the evidence as given. And there is plenty of it.

Do you really want to just ignore what was given to us in order to be able to hang onto your own delusion?

Could you expect a fair trial if the jury had made up their minds to find you guilty, and to not even consider any evidence that would exonerate you?



Fair and impartial. That's what I like it about you.

So what is the job of the prosecuting attorney? He has to bring up evidence to prove, "beyond reasonable doubt." I have presented my evidence. John's chronology is there for us to examine. It is time to present yours.

Coop

 

[Zero Link]

I am a beastie with 7 heads and 10 horns. Haven't you noticed? Ask my wife, she will tell you.

Lol you sure you wanna admit that on here? O_o : :-D

I can definently see Coop's intepretation in Revelations but I don't see it in Matthews.

 

[lecoop]

I can definently see Coop's intepretation in Revelations but I don't see it in Matthews.

Zero Link, please explain this further? What do you not see in Matthew?

Coop

 

[MrVersatile48]

Ian,

For one thing: Revelation is not to be understood literally. If you are looking for a literal fulfillment to the things said there, you could end up waiting a very long time.

But lets you and I take a look at Revelation 9:13-18, shall we? The multiple use of one simple Greek word in that passage will put a different light on this passage for you.



Let me ask you a question here: Could it possibly be that these horsemen are the Sons of God; and that the one third of men that were killed by these horsemen are the wicked that are to be destroyed at the appearing of the Son of Man?

Brimstone: Greek Theion It is the adjective form of the Greek word for God. We call it Sulfur. We call it brimstone. We call it lots of things, but in the Greek mind at that time it signified Divinity and cleansing: Purification.

Not only that; but there is only one source of Brimstone: God Himself.
Brimstone and fire flow like a torrent from before His Throne. His breath is likened to a streaming torrent of Brimstone. He is Brimstone. There are quite a few scriptures that clearly speak this.

Hmm...

Hi all!

Ben, I just have 10 minutes today: I take your word @ money & prestige, etc, not being your motive

I've often said, in endtimes/prophecy threads, over the past 5 years, that Bible prophecy often has partial fulfilments before the final fulfilment - so I'm not a total futurist, nor a total literalist - sure God uses allegories etc too

But some things are literal too

Thanks for quoting Rev 9:13-18

If you see military helicopters, as a first century vision, you see the pilots' human faces..the glinting sun loks like a lion's mane...the chopper blades make a loud roaring & look like women's long hair whirling in the wind

& USA developed a spray, in the '70s, whose FX are 'like a scorpion sting, lasting 5 months' - sprayed from the 'tail' so the crew don't get it

Also, the whole world population was less than 200m back then, but in 1961, Chairman Mao boasted that China alone could field 200m militia 'at the drop of a hat'

Zechariah 14 prophesies the exact FX that napalm & nukes have - rotting eyes, flesh & tongues before the body hits the ground

No time now to print 1 Thess 4:13-5:11 & 1 Cor 15:51-58 @ Matt 24 @ the instant airlft Rapture rescue of all who love Jesus before the worst time ever comes

Must go

Ian

 

[Darrell dunn]

Lets look at it another way, when Jesus was preaching He preached ( the kingdom of heaven is at hand)

After Jesus was rejected by the Jews , the Kingdom was not started at the resurrection of Jesus, But it could have,

So there were a lot of prophesy about the end times took place at that time.

But it did not start then,

and the book of Rev. was written about 95 AD so all of the book is after that at the lest.

When Jesus comes He will have the sword of the Lord in his mouth (The word of God), not a sword in his hand.

And none of this can happen till the church is taken!!!!!!!

 

[BenJasher]

Ian,

I am well aware that Chairman Mao said he could field an army of 200 million. But I am not convinced that this is the number spoken of. The Greek doesn't state an actual number. Myriads (plural) of myriads (plural) would be any large number you wanted it to be. There is nothing specific in the Greek there that would allow us to define the exact number indicated. But that doesn't matter.

What does matter is the fact that Mao's claim of 200 million soldiers would not fulfill this passage of Rev.

There is a big difference between 200 million soldiers, and 200 million horsemen. John spoke of horsemen, not just soldiers. Mao said soldiers.

Horsemen, or cavalry, would make up only a portion of the entire army. So for Chairman Mao to put an army in the field that would fulfill the passage in question, he would need upwards of maybe 1 billion soldiers in his army by the time you factored in logistics and support. That would make this an impossibly large army. That would be one of every 6 people in China on the battlefield. Young or old; man woman or child, they would all need to be there.

But there is no nation in the world that can field an army of that size. And if they could, it would be strategic suicide to commit that army to one specific theater of conflict. You would have a very pointed spearhead, but you would leave yourself open everywhere else.

Not only that, but there is no nation on earth that still uses horsemen. John specifically stated horsemen. He didn't say cavalry. We know that cavalries have been used as far back as Hannibal (216 B.C.), and maybe before that, so John could have specified cavalry, but he did not. The fact that he did not is very significant.

The reason that is significant is that we still use cavalries today, but we no longer use horses on the battlefield. We use helicopters and tanks. John specified horsemen instead of cavalry.

It all boils down to one thing, and this is one of the main reasons I say some of the things I do. That one thing is this: Most of what is being taught by the John Hagee's and the Tim La Hayes of the world may sound plausible at first. But these things won't stand up to careful scrutiny.

Look at what you believe. Think about some of these things you are being told. Do those things really make sense if you took the time to give them careful thought?

Maybe what I said about the fire, smoke and brimstone, and the Sons of God isn't right either. But truthfully, it makes more sense than trying to interpret this passage literally.

 

[MrVersatile48]

The Coming of the Lord

13Brothers, we do not want you to be ignorant about those who fall asleep, or to grieve like the rest of men, who have no hope. 14We believe that Jesus died and rose again and so we believe that God will bring with Jesus those who have fallen asleep in him.

15According to the Lord's own word, we tell you that we who are still alive, who are left till the coming of the Lord, will certainly not precede those who have fallen asleep. 16For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first.

17After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever. 18Therefore encourage each other with these words.

1 Thessalonians 5

1Now, brothers, about times and dates we do not need to write to you, 2for you know very well that the day of the Lord will come like a thief in the night. 3While people are saying, "Peace and safety," destruction will come on them suddenly, as labor pains on a pregnant woman, and they will not escape.

4But you, brothers, are not in darkness so that this day should surprise you like a thief. 5You are all sons of the light and sons of the day. We do not belong to the night or to the darkness. 6So then, let us not be like others, who are asleep, but let us be alert and self-controlled. 7For those who sleep, sleep at night, and those who get drunk, get drunk at night.

8But since we belong to the day, let us be self-controlled, putting on faith and love as a breastplate, and the hope of salvation as a helmet.

9For God did not appoint us to suffer wrath but to receive salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ. 10He died for us so that, whether we are awake or asleep, we may live together with him.

11Therefore encourage one another and build each other up, just as in fact you are doing.


1 Corinthians 15:51-58 (New International Version)



51Listen, I tell you a mystery: We will not all sleep, but we will all be changed 52in a flash, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed. 53For the perishable must clothe itself with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality.

54When the perishable has been clothed with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality, then the saying that is written will come true: "Death has been swallowed up in victory."[a]
55"Where, O death, is your victory?
Where, O death, is your sting?" 56The sting of death is sin, and the power of sin is the law. 57But thanks be to God! He gives us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.

58Therefore, my dear brothers, stand firm. Let nothing move you. Always give yourselves fully to the work of the Lord, because you know that your labor in the Lord is not in vain.

Footnotes:

1 Corinthians 15:54 Isaiah 25:8
1 Corinthians 15:55 Hosea 13:14

Matthew 24


30"At that time the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and all the nations of the earth will mourn. They will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of the sky, with power and great glory.

31And he will send his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other.

32"Now learn this lesson from the fig tree: As soon as its twigs get tender and its leaves come out, you know that summer is near. 33Even so, when you see all these things, you know that it[d]is near, right at the door. 34I tell you the truth, this generation[e] will certainly not pass away until all these things have happened. 35Heaven and earth will pass away, but my words will never pass away.

The Day and Hour Unknown

36"No one knows about that day or hour, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son,[f] but only the Father. 37As it was in the days of Noah, so it will be at the coming of the Son of Man.
38For in the days before the flood, people were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, up to the day Noah entered the ark; 39and they knew nothing about what would happen until the flood came and took them all away. That is how it will be at the coming of the Son of Man. 40Two men will be in the field; one will be taken and the other left. 41Two women will be grinding with a hand mill; one will be taken and the other left.

 

[Darrell dunn]

BenJasher

I belive that you may have missed the fact the John lived in the first century,
And the means of travel then was a horse.

Now using that, every means that John saw of carrying a man from one place to another he would have called a horse.

Trucks, jeeps, cars, transport vehicle, would all be a horse.

And the Himalaian mountains highway the Chines built , and the dam in the Euphrates river, are a direct path from china. Rev.12 that the water thereof was dried up, that the way of the kings of the east might be prepared.

 

[Jay T]

As you may see, I edited out some derogatory comments from one post and all quotes which referenced the comment were edited as well.

Ben, do not continue to post in a manner that will personally incite other to post back. :x

Zero, thanks for your concerns, but I have to ask tat the Mods be the ones to step up and remind members of the rules of conduct. All do have the right to PM a mod or Admin about an infraction. Thanks again.


Coop, just for the record, a completed 70th. does not negate the possibility of future events like wrath, harpazo and His Second coming. That would be the Preterist's position, not the views of the historists'.

That's a good point you brought up, Vic.

Some prophecies do not have just one point of application.
Look at the prophecy of Jonah, concerning Nineveh.
That city failed to be destroyed at the end of the 40days......BUT later, years later, the city was destroyed !

 

[lecoop]

Lets look at it another way, when Jesus was preaching He preached ( the kingdom of heaven is at hand)

After Jesus was rejected by the Jews , the Kingdom was not started at the resurrection of Jesus, But it could have,

So there were a lot of prophesy about the end times took place at that time.

But it did not start then,

and the book of Rev. was written about 95 AD so all of the book is after that at the lest.

When Jesus comes He will have the sword of the Lord in his mouth (The word of God), not a sword in his hand.

And none of this can happen till the church is taken!!!!!!!

I agree, Darrel! It seems to me that God allowed for Israel to accept Him as their Messiah, for a few weeks or months after His resurrection, and if they did, the physical kingdom would have come way back then. But they continued to reject Him, so He raised up Paul to go to the Gentiles.

Coop

 

[MrVersatile48]

Ben

Just time to say that China's population is now over 1.25 billion &, thanks to long policy of killing baby girls, an amazingly high % are males of military age

Again, a first century vision of a vast, fast-moving invasion force would be clouded by dust in that region, so as said above, tanks would look like hoses, just as helicopters are often locust-shaped

OT prophets & NT apostles had no words for things not invented yet

As Daniel 12 said, many prophecies were deep mysteries 'till the time of the end, when both travel & knowledge increase greatly'

God knew about cars, trains, planes, computers, biometrics & WMD etc - as He said in Isaiah, 'Who else has shown you the end from the beginning?'

Must go

Ian

 

[Jay T]

I agree, Darrel! It seems to me that God allowed for Israel to accept Him as their Messiah, for a few weeks or months after His resurrection, and if they did, the physical kingdom would have come way back then. But they continued to reject Him, so He raised up Paul to go to the Gentiles.

Coop

After Christ went back to heaven, the Gospel was preached to the Jews for 3 1/2 years...to fullfill the Bible prophecy of the 70 weeks found in (Daniel 9:24-27), then after, the Gospel mesage went to the Jews.

 

[Vic C.]

After Christ went back to heaven, the Gospel was preached to the Jews for 3 1/2 years...to fullfill the Bible prophecy of the 70 weeks found in (Daniel 9:24-27), then after, the Gospel mesage went to the Jews.

Correction Jay, I don't think you mean to say that.