The rapture of the Church

[Jay T]

Correction Jay, I don't think you mean to say that.

Hi Vic,
What exactly do you mean by that ?

What do you feel needs correction ?

 

[MrVersatile48]

3 mins to say that the Bible is more up to date than tomorrow's news..

or next week's..next month's..next year's

Part of my vision, in the 5 years I've been online, is Christian forums being at the very cutting edge

See profile & 'find all posts by..' for daily current events/general talk etc threads, as more folk with that vision are needed to cover all the news, etc, that God can use to draw folk closer to Him, yes?

Must go

Ian

 

[Vic C.]

Hi Vic,
What exactly do you mean by that ?

What do you feel needs correction ?

Maybe I am misunderstanding you and your position, but most historicists would agree that after the 70th. week concluded, the Gospel went out to the Gentiles, not the Jews. 8-)

 

[Jay T]

Maybe I am misunderstanding you and your position, but most historicists would agree that after the 70th. week concluded, the Gospel went out to the Gentiles, not the Jews. 8-)

You are absolutely correct !

Sorry, I must have said something to give the wrong impression, my mistake !

You are correct....the 70th week finished, and then...the Gospel went to the Gentiles, of whom Paul was the Apostle to the Gentiles.

 

[BenJasher]

I am sorry, Ian, But I don't care how much dust is in the air, a tank will not be mistaken for a horse. A horse is a horse is a horse of course, and not a tank. They don't look the same, they don't sound the same.

There is no way you are going to tell me that John saw tanks in a state of vision and mistook them for horses. That dog don't hunt. That is an example of straining at gnats and swallowing a camel.

Furthermore, the point I made in my previous post has either been swept away as being too insignificant to consider, or because it didn't sink in. So let me bring it back into focus.

John could have said cavalry if that is what he meant. But he did not. He said horsemen. There is a world of difference. And for us to try to interpret John's use of the word horsemen into tanks and helicopters is a futile and misleading exercise in eisigesis.

Back to another point I made; Mao said 200 million soldiers. The cavalry would only be a small portion of that total number. Maybe 20%. That would make 80 million cavalry. But regardless of the percentage, John said horsemen, not cavalry. And 200 million soldiers would not be a fulfillment of John's vision, regardless of the other eisigetical folderal you can come up with.

And if you took the time to analytically consider the other so-called "evidence" in support of Mao's army being the interpretation of John's vision, you would begin to see that those dogs don't hunt either.

 

[BenJasher]

After re-reading my last post, I want to ask that you not take offense at my tone. I wasn't aware of a "tone" when I wrote those words, and I meant no offense or disrespect to anyone.

 

[lecoop]

"Those dogs don't hunt!" :smt043 :smt043 :smt043

 

[Gabbylittleangel]

There is no way you are going to tell me that John saw tanks in a state of vision and mistook them for horses. .

Ben,
What was the Hebrew word for "tanks", 2000 years ago?

 

[BenJasher]

Gabby;

Your question is pointless. So why ask it?

I made several valid points that someone in here needs to intelligently address. These points have to do with the Fururist interpretation of eschatology.

In an attempt to give an intelligent answer to your question Gabby, I will ask this question of you: What difference does it make what the Greek word for tank was? If there is a word for tank, John didn't use it. He said horsemen, indicating troops mounted on horseback. There is a Greek word for cavalry, which would have left a wide open loophole to my argument. But John didn't use it either. He said horsemen.

 

[MrVersatile48]

Hi all!

Ben, I've not caught up on page 15: 2-3 have recently spoken @ 'the prophets not understanding what was being revealed to them', as Peter put it, & @ many prophecies being 'sealed till the time of the end, when knowledge & travel shall multiply'

Obviously, those living 2000, 2500 & 2800 years ago had no words for the many things only invented within living memory

You've said, several times, that futurists simply parrot what others have told them, but it's preterists who are much more likely to do that

Many Christians, on seeing 9/11 & Baghdad 'shock & awe' bombing - Hiroshima/Nagasaki A bombs too - have said that they were instantly reminded of Joel 2 'wonders in the heavens & signs on Earth: blood, fire & clouds of smoke'

Even secular journalists & broadcasters, confronted with live TV coverage of major famines, earthquakes, wars, etc frequently describe them as apocalyptic & of Biblical proportions - as in Revelation 6, 8, 9 & 16 etc

I came in asking God where to post this news @ a new coalition of evangelicals & scientists campaigning together about global warming & pollution, etc:-

http://www.crosswalk.com/news/religiont ... 64252.html

Worth printing from Revelation 16 & Isaiah 24 here:-

Revelation 16

The Seven Bowls of God's Wrath

1Then I heard a loud voice from the temple saying to the seven angels, "Go, pour out the seven bowls of God's wrath on the earth." 2The first angel went and poured out his bowl on the land, and ugly and painful sores broke out on the people who had the mark of the beast and worshiped his image.

3The second angel poured out his bowl on the sea, and it turned into blood like that of a dead man, and every living thing in the sea died.

4The third angel poured out his bowl on the rivers and springs of water, and they became blood. 5Then I heard the angel in charge of the waters say:
"You are just in these judgments,
you who are and who were, the Holy One,
because you have so judged;
6for they have shed the blood of your saints and prophets,
and you have given them blood to drink as they deserve."

7And I heard the altar respond:
"Yes, Lord God Almighty,
true and just are your judgments."

8The fourth angel poured out his bowl on the sun, and the sun was given power to scorch people with fire. 9They were seared by the intense heat and they cursed the name of God, who had control over these plagues, but they refused to repent and glorify him.

10The fifth angel poured out his bowl on the throne of the beast, and his kingdom was plunged into darkness. Men gnawed their tongues in agony 11and cursed the God of heaven because of their pains and their sores, but they refused to repent of what they had done.

12The sixth angel poured out his bowl on the great river Euphrates, and its water was dried up to prepare the way for the kings from the East. 13Then I saw three evil[a] spirits that looked like frogs; they came out of the mouth of the dragon, out of the mouth of the beast and out of the mouth of the false prophet. 14They are spirits of demons performing miraculous signs, and they go out to the kings of the whole world, to gather them for the battle on the great day of God Almighty.

15"Behold, I come like a thief! Blessed is he who stays awake and keeps his clothes with him, so that he may not go naked and be shamefully exposed."

16Then they gathered the kings together to the place that in Hebrew is called Armageddon.

17The seventh angel poured out his bowl into the air, and out of the temple came a loud voice from the throne, saying, "It is done!" 18Then there came flashes of lightning, rumblings, peals of thunder and a severe earthquake. No earthquake like it has ever occurred since man has been on earth, so tremendous was the quake. 19The great city split into three parts, and the cities of the nations collapsed. God remembered Babylon the Great and gave her the cup filled with the wine of the fury of his wrath.

20Every island fled away and the mountains could not be found. 21From the sky huge hailstones of about a hundred pounds each fell upon men. And they cursed God on account of the plague of hail, because the plague was so terrible.


Isaiah 24

The LORD's Devastation of the Earth

1 See, the LORD is going to lay waste the earth
and devastate it;
he will ruin its face
and scatter its inhabitants-
2 it will be the same
for priest as for people,
for master as for servant,
for mistress as for maid,
for seller as for buyer,
for borrower as for lender,
for debtor as for creditor.

3 The earth will be completely laid waste
and totally plundered.
The LORD has spoken this word.

4 The earth dries up and withers,
the world languishes and withers,
the exalted of the earth languish.

5 The earth is defiled by its people;
they have disobeyed the laws,
violated the statutes
and broken the everlasting covenant.

6 Therefore a curse consumes the earth;
its people must bear their guilt.
Therefore earth's inhabitants are burned up,
and very few are left.

7 The new wine dries up and the vine withers;
all the merrymakers groan.

8 The gaiety of the tambourines is stilled,
the noise of the revelers has stopped,
the joyful harp is silent.

9 No longer do they drink wine with a song;
the beer is bitter to its drinkers.

10 The ruined city lies desolate;
the entrance to every house is barred.

11 In the streets they cry out for wine;
all joy turns to gloom,
all gaiety is banished from the earth.

12 The city is left in ruins,
its gate is battered to pieces.

13 So will it be on the earth
and among the nations,
as when an olive tree is beaten,
or as when gleanings are left after the grape harvest.

14 They raise their voices, they shout for joy;
from the west they acclaim the LORD's majesty.

15 Therefore in the east give glory to the LORD;
exalt the name of the LORD, the God of Israel,
in the islands of the sea.

16 From the ends of the earth we hear singing:
"Glory to the Righteous One."
But I said, "I waste away, I waste away!
Woe to me!
The treacherous betray!
With treachery the treacherous betray!"

17 Terror and pit and snare await you,
O people of the earth.

18 Whoever flees at the sound of terror
will fall into a pit;
whoever climbs out of the pit
will be caught in a snare.
The floodgates of the heavens are opened,
the foundations of the earth shake.

19 The earth is broken up,
the earth is split asunder,
the earth is thoroughly shaken.

20 The earth reels like a drunkard,
it sways like a hut in the wind;
so heavy upon it is the guilt of its rebellion
that it fallsâ€â€never to rise again.

21 In that day the LORD will punish
the powers in the heavens above
and the kings on the earth below.

22 They will be herded together
like prisoners bound in a dungeon;
they will be shut up in prison
and be punished [a] after many days.

23 The moon will be abashed, the sun ashamed;
for the LORD Almighty will reign
on Mount Zion and in Jerusalem,
and before its elders, gloriously.



Nothing on such scale has happened yet - let alone 2000 years ago - but today's techno can do all of it

Many times in the OT, God said, "I will destroy..." - but used the armies of Assyria, Babylon, etc to do it - man is so often the instrument of his own doom

& surely that's the thrust of Romans 1:18-32 & 1 Corinthians 1:18-27 etc


Interestingly, on your point @ horses in Rev 9 etc, some commentators have said that, even in this age of tanks, horses would still be the fastest way to get the '200 million kings of the east' over the dried up R Euphrates of Rev 16:12, through the Iraqi mountain ranges to 'cover the land (of Israel) like a swarm of locusts'

7The locusts looked like horses prepared for battle. On their heads they wore something like crowns of gold, and their faces resembled human faces. 8Their hair was like women's hair, and their teeth were like lions' teeth. 9They had breastplates like breastplates of iron, and the sound of their wings was like the thundering of many horses and chariots rushing into battle. 10They had tails and stings like scorpions, and in their tails they had power to torment people for five months. 11They had as king over them the angel of the Abyss, whose name in Hebrew is Abaddon, and in Greek, Apollyon.[a]

'70s classic, Revelation Visualised, was by Arab Christian Salem Kirban & Messianic Jew Gary Cohen - who were both very familiar with the whole area

Cossacks & Mongols still train on horseback for large-scale manoevres thru just such mountainous terrain

Must go

Ian

 

[lecoop]

Just something to think about:

What countries are "East" of the Euphrates River?"

That would be the following:

Iran
Turkmenistan
Uzbekistan
Kazakhstan
Afghanstan
Pakistan
Tajikistan
Kyrgyzstan

If you will note, all these are Muslim countries, as is Babylon - I mean - Iraq. It is possible that China will not even be involved.

Coop

 

[BenJasher]

Ok. Stop. Take a deep breath. Relax for a second. You are running headlong into delusion at a rapid pace here.

Ian keeps coming around with this passage from Revelations 9. He is hung up on these "locusts" and horsemen that are described there. According to him, they have to be some terrible destructive force of the Anti-Christ. Something to be afeared of. Hmm...

What if they weren't? What if in fact God said that they were part of "His great Army"? These locust make another appearance in the Old Testament, along with the palmer worm and the canker worm and the caterpillar in Joel 1.

Joel chapter 2 describes the same destruction of Revelation 9, by a people using the same metaphors and in more detail. Then in verse 25 we are told this:

And I will restore to you the years that the locust hath eaten, the canker-worm, and the caterpillar, and the palmer-worm, my great army which I sent among you.

The appearance of this vast army, the destruction it leaves in it's path, and the restoration of the things taken by this army is tied to the outpouring of the Holy Spirit. That begins to put a different flavor on things doesn't it? We know also from the words of this same prophet that the outpouring of the Spirit of God comes in two waves, known as the Former Rain and the Latter Rain.

We also know that the Former Rain was recorded in the 2nd Chapter of Acts; and that we still await the Latter Rain outpouring.

It is never wrong to allow the scriptures to comment on themselves or interpret themselves. It is wrong however to take one passage of scripture and build a whole idea out of it as though it was the only scripture that spoke on that subject. It fosters incorrect theologies. It creates people who are blind to the truth. And it creates a mindset that will only allow you to hear the words of others who have come to the same conclusions you have the same way you have. Everyone else is wrong. And that is the exact, scriptural definition of heresy.

 

[Vic C.]

What if they weren't? What if in fact God said that they were part of "His great Army"? These locust make another appearance in the Old Testament, along with the palmer worm and the canker worm and the caterpillar in Joel 1

There's no doubt that the power thay are given is given by permission of God.

Rev 9:4 And it was commanded them that they should not hurt the grass of the earth, neither any green thing, neither any tree; but only those men which have not the seal of God in their foreheads.

No one but God would issue such a commandment.

Rev 9:5 And to them it was given that they should not kill them, but that they should be tormented five months: and their torment was as the torment of a scorpion, when he striketh a man.
Rev 9:6 And in those days shall men seek death, and shall not find it; and shall desire to die, and death shall flee from them.

Again, from God.

But these demons have a ruler:

Rev 9:11 And they had a king over them, which is the angel of the bottomless pit, whose name in the Hebrew tongue is Abaddon, but in the Greek tongue hath his name Apollyon.

Who is this ruler? Ben, would God grant leadership of HIS army to Apollyon?

 

[lecoop]

Who is this ruler? Ben, would God grant leadership of HIS army to Apollyon?
:smt043 :smt043 :smt043

Wow! That good point, Vic!

Coop

 

[Gabbylittleangel]

Gabby;

Your question is pointless. So why ask it?

I made several valid points that someone in here needs to intelligently address. These points have to do with the Fururist interpretation of eschatology.

In an attempt to give an intelligent answer to your question Gabby, I will ask this question of you: What difference does it make what the Greek word for tank was? If there is a word for tank, John didn't use it. He said horsemen, indicating troops mounted on horseback. There is a Greek word for cavalry, which would have left a wide open loophole to my argument. But John didn't use it either. He said horsemen.

Ben,

Somehow you missed the point and made it at the same time! The point is there was no Hebrew word for "Tanks" 2000 years ago. There is no way that John could have looked into the future, seen today and said that he saw cars and airplanes and tanks. There was no such thing then, so there was no such word to describe what he saw. He was limited to using the vocabulary that was available at the time.

In the same way, if God took you 2000 years into the future and you tried to describe what you saw. Imagine someone even as recently as 50 years ago trying to describe a world where every home had a computer, what the Internet was, or explain how you can walk around with a cell phone and make phone calls.

I made a point of this several pages ago, but I was unable to find it now. God took John at least 2000 years into the future, showed him the world, then said "Write it down". John was completely limited by the words available to him, or he would have had to say that he saw cars, planes, and tanks then tried to explain what they were, how they ran on oil that was pumped out of the ground, they were made in factories, etc.

 

[BenJasher]

Gabby,

Your words show me that you have misunderstood my point. There is a word for cavalry in the Greek. If John had seen a cavalry, he would have used that particular Greek word. Your point of John not understanding something from the future when he saw it is a subtle attempt to sidestep the issue. Maybe not intentional, but that is what it amounts to.

John clearly said horsemen when he could have just as easily said cavalry.

Cavalry in John's day consisted of soldiers mounted on horseback. But the idea of cavalry was already in existence then. He could have easily indicated cavalry if that was his intent. But, John clearly saw and recorded horsemen and not cavalry.

Do you still not get my point? Do I need to break down and cry?

 

[BenJasher]

Vic,
Regardless of who their leader is, God refers to them as His Great Army.

There is more to this, but at 3:00 a.m., it is time for me to cut things short and get some sleep.

I will finish this another time.

 

[Gabbylittleangel]

Gabby,

Your words show me that you have misunderstood my point. There is a word for cavalry in the Greek. If John had seen a cavalry, he would have used that particular Greek word. Your point of John not understanding something from the future when he saw it is a subtle attempt to sidestep the issue. Maybe not intentional, but that is what it amounts to.

John clearly said horsemen when he could have just as easily said cavalry.

Cavalry in John's day consisted of soldiers mounted on horseback. But the idea of cavalry was already in existence then. He could have easily indicated cavalry if that was his intent. But, John clearly saw and recorded horsemen and not cavalry.

Do you still not get my point? Do I need to break down and cry?

Break out the tissue.

My point is that if John saw a car, a tank, and an airplane, as I believe he did, he would not have been able to say "I saw a car, a tank, and an airplane." The reason that he could not say that, is because the words did not exist.

Keeping in mind the point of what he was writing was to document the times as it relates to God and his people, not to document the technology,
how should John write down that he saw a horseless carriage, a big thing flying in the air, and a bigger horseless carriage that was spitting out big metal things that made loud noises and set things on fire? (John had never seen gun powder either)

 

[BenJasher]

:smt089

:smt022(sniff, sniff) Never mind. You don't get it. I don't have the heart or the vocabulary to say it any other way.(sniff, sniff) :smt022

 

[BenJasher]

You have a point Gabby. If John had seen a car or plane or tank, he would not have had words to describe them.

But if he has seen a cavalry unit, there is no reason to believe that he would not have recognized it as such, and there is a Greek word for cavalry. There is no reason to believe from his choice of words that he did not recognize what he saw. He saw horsemen, and that is the word he used. For us to try to make that into something other than soldiers mounted on horseback is to veer off into an area where we have no solid footing. We could easily slip and fall. We don't want to do that.

Do I need to keep my Kleenex's handy?