The rapture of the Church

[MrVersatile48]

I just read page 11 - maybe I have @ 8 pages to catch up - but today's Billy Graham: My Answers seems apt here:-

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My Answer: Is the Scientific End of the World the Same as the Biblical?
Billy Graham

Q: I know scientists say the world might come to an end in a few billion years when the sun finally burns out or something, but is this what the Bible means when it talks about the end of the world? - T.McL.

A: No, this is not what the Bible means when it talks about the end of the world. Instead, the Bible paints a much different picture of the world's end - and one that could happen at any moment.

The reason is because someday Christ will come again - and when He does, the present world system will come to an end and He will usher in a new era of peace and justice.

And unlike His first coming (which we celebrated just a few days ago), His second coming will be dramatic and decisive. Jesus warned that when He comes again "All the nations of the earth will mourn. They will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of the sky, with power and great glory" (Matthew 24:30).

But the Bible also says that someday the whole universe will be re-created and restored to what God intended it to be! Sin, like a deadly cancer, has touched everything, bringing decay and death in its wake. But someday God will bring an end to all that. The Bible says, "In keeping with his promise we are looking forward to a new heaven and a new earth, the home of righteousness" (2 Peter 3:13).

Are you ready for that day? And even if it doesn't come in your lifetime, are you ready to meet God when you die? You can be, by trusting Christ alone for your salvation and committing your life to Him. Invite Him into your life today.

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Send your queries to "My Answer," c/o Billy Graham, Billy Graham Evangelistic Association, 1 Billy Graham Parkway, Charlotte, N.C., 28201; call 1-(877) 2-GRAHAM, or visit the Web site for the Billy Graham Evangelistic Association: http://www.billygraham.org.

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As many folk may well be in here for the first time in over a week, & like me, may have only read page 11, a quick refresher @ the OP question may serve to focus on the essentials

In Revelation 1-3, the church is on Earth

Revelation 4:1 is a great picture of the instant airlift Rapture rescue of all who love Jesus before we see the wrath of God begin to be poured out in Revelation 6

Revelation 6:8 forecasts 25% of mankind to die in war, famine, pestilence & by the wild beasts

Revelation 9:13-18 predict 33% of mankind die in war begun at R Euphrates

Revelation 16 & Joel 3 & Zechariah 14 are Armageddon - all waters poisoned, all vegetation burnt, sun scorching folk, etc

Revelation 21 prophesies New Heavens & New Earth as the old has past away - 2 Peter 3 says Earth is destroyed by fire, just as Genesis 6 flood destroyed all mankind except Noah's family, who entered the Ark of salvation

2 Peter 3

The Day of the Lord

1Dear friends, this is now my second letter to you. I have written both of them as reminders to stimulate you to wholesome thinking. 2I want you to recall the words spoken in the past by the holy prophets and the command given by our Lord and Savior through your apostles.

3First of all, you must understand that in the last days scoffers will come, scoffing and following their own evil desires. 4They will say, "Where is this 'coming' he promised? Ever since our fathers died, everything goes on as it has since the beginning of creation."

5But they deliberately forget that long ago by God's word the heavens existed and the earth was formed out of water and by water. 6By these waters also the world of that time was deluged and destroyed. 7By the same word the present heavens and earth are reserved for fire, being kept for the day of judgment and destruction of ungodly men.


Jesus said His return will be 'as in the days of Noah & Lot'

Both times, clear warnings were given about destruction to come & the one way of salvation was offered - Noah preached 40 years about the coming flood & invited everyone to come to safety before it's too late, & after Noah's family were safe, God closed the doors before the flood came

Both times, believers were removed to safety before destruction came

Can Ben & others now see why Jesus said, in Matt 24, that this climax generation of all history will be 'cut short, for the sake of the elect, otherwise no flesh would be left alive'?

Only the Rapture - described a few verses later - can be the how & why - as in 1 Corinthians 15:51-58 & 1 Thessalonians 4:13-5:11

Get real

& tell all you love, OK?

Must go

Ian

 

[lecoop]

In Revelation 1-3, the church is on Earth

No argument there: it was about 95 AD

Revelation 4:1 is a great picture of the instant airlift Rapture rescue of all who love Jesus before we see the wrath of God begin to be poured out in Revelation 6

It is a great picture of God calling John to heaven. To read a rapture into this verse is poor exegesis. It is "grasping at straws."

Revelation 6:8 forecasts 25% of mankind to die in war, famine, pestilence & by the wild beasts

Let's read this and see what it really says:

"...And power was given unto them over the fourth part of the earth..."

It is another misconception. What it truly says is that the second, third and fourth horse are limited to one fourth of the earth's surface area (or one fourth of the land area). It says nothing at all about how many people they might kill.

Revelation 16 & Joel 3 & Zechariah 14 are Armageddon - all waters poisoned, all vegetation burnt, sun scorching folk, etc

Sorry, but these events, like "vegetation burnt" are a part of the day of the Lord, not a part of "Armageddon."

Can Ben & others now see why Jesus said, in Matt 24, that this climax generation of all history will be 'cut short, for the sake of the elect, otherwise no flesh would be left alive'?

Only the Rapture - described a few verses later - can be the how & why - as in 1 Corinthians 15:51-58 & 1 Thessalonians 4:13-5:11

Get real

The rapture is not what "cuts short" the time of tribulation. This is totally against John's chronology. Why must you rearrange the book of Revelation to fit your beliefs. Why not, rather, rearrange your beliefs to fit John's chronology? His came straight from the Father.

Coop

 

[BenJasher]

Can Ben & others now see why Jesus said, in Matt 24, that this climax generation of all history will be 'cut short, for the sake of the elect, otherwise no flesh would be left alive'?

Only the Rapture - described a few verses later - can be the how & why - as in 1 Corinthians 15:51-58 & 1 Thessalonians 4:13-5:11

I suspect that this is supposed to be an example of someone who thinks they have it all comprehended because they pay attention and take lots of notes when someone like Tim LaHaye or Hal Lindsey spoon feeds them the crap that spews out of their mouth on a regular basis.

I suppose that this remark was meant to make me sit up straight and realize the error of my ways. Oh bother...

In answer to the question asked, I can only say that if I am expected to see a Rapture in order to see the truth, the answer is emphatically NO!!!

If by "cut short" you mean that the Rapture is going to occur, you my friend are insidiously deceived. You don't know how badly or how dangerously deceived you are. If you think that "cut short" is the equivalent of a Rapture, or a code word referring to it then you, my friend, need to do some basic linguistic research to discover the meaning of the phrase.

The "climax generation of all history' you mentioned in relation to Matthew 24 was the people living at the time He spoke those words. Everything He said would happen, happened to that generation. It doesn't take much research to see that with vivid clarity.

I strongly suspect that you didn't even take the time to read my post in the middle of page 10 of this thread on the 13 instances of the Greek word "Haprazo in the New Testament. If you did, you refused to even consider what was written there because it may mean you have to give up your pet doctrine.

I think you said it best when you said...

Get real...

I couldn't have said it better myself.

 

[BenJasher]

I wonder...

Does my unflinching stance against the Rapture Theory make people think that I am denying that the Lord is even returning?

Are people afraid that if they agreed with me that they would be cast into the same lot as the lazy steward in the last few verses of Matthew 24?


I can most emphatically assure anyone who wants to know that I do not deny the Lord's coming. Ask the members of my congregation about that. But the Rapture ain't it. The Second coming has already taken place. What we look for now is what is stated in the Greek as the Huiothesia.

As far as being a lazy steward of what I have been given, again, ask my congregation. We have a very lively hope that is based on scripture, not on a delusional hoax. That hoax originally started in the form of vulgar literature, and eventually gained popularity when our brother Darby took the ecstatic fantasies of a 12 year old girl and fashioned it into what is known today as the "hope of Christianity." The Rapture Theory has never had a rightful place in scripture. It is a false hope, and one that will be dashed to pieces with the brightness of His appearing.

 

[Vic C.]

I can most emphatically assure anyone who wants to know that I do not deny the Lord's coming. Ask the members of my congregation about that. But the Rapture ain't it. The Second coming has already taken place. What we look for now is what is stated in the Greek as the Huiothesia.

I do not believe The Second Coming has already taken place. C'mon Mr. Ben, we've touched on this already.

Acts 1:9 And when he had spoken these things, while they beheld, he was taken up; and a cloud received him out of their sight.

... and He shall return in the same manner:

Acts 1:11 Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven.

What does this have to do with Sonship anyway? Please explain. Thanks.

 

[lecoop]

I wonder...

Does my unflinching stance against the Rapture Theory make people think that I am denying that the Lord is even returning?

Are people afraid that if they agreed with me that they would be cast into the same lot as the lazy steward in the last few verses of Matthew 24?


....

If you want the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, I almost ignore your posts, because they are so far from how I read the bible. I think you have missed it big time! However, it is just your opinions, not you as a person, that I ignore. I believe you are a brother in the Lord. And we each have a right to our own opinion!

Coop

 

[Jay T]

The duration of Tribulation is worth exploring from scripture and worthy of discussion one day. You are correct; it could be any of the durations of time you posted. It could be about 2,000 years or so as we speak. It could also be that the 70th. week has past and an upcoming (or occurring) Trib period, apostasy, wrath, etc. is an unspecified period of time of it's own.

Yes, I'm very interested in how some people even get a 7 year Trib. out of the Bible.

 

[lecoop]

Yes, I'm very interested in how some people even get a 7 year Trib. out of the Bible.

It is really very simple: Daniel said it would be one peroid of 7. Then twice Daniel gave us the length of time of the last half of the week, the time of authority of the antichrist, as "time, times, and half of time." This would be hard to decifer, except that John gives us this same timeframe, five more times! John gives us the time of the last half of the week, as 1260 days, as 42 months, and again as time, times, and half of time.

Therefore, we have seven scriptures that show us the last half of the period of sevens is 3 1/2 years. Two times this gives us seven years.

The abomination event splits this into two halves.

Coop

 

[Vic C.]

Yes, I'm very interested in how some people even get a 7 year Trib. out of the Bible.

It is really very simple: Daniel said it would be one peroid of 7. Then twice Daniel gave us the length of time of the last half of the week, the time of authority of the antichrist, as "time, times, and half of time." This would be hard to decifer, except that John gives us this same timeframe, five more times! John gives us the time of the last half of the week, as 1260 days, as 42 months, and again as time, times, and half of time.

Therefore, we have seven scriptures that show us the last half of the period of sevens is 3 1/2 years. Two times this gives us seven years.

The abomination event splits this into two halves.

Coop

Please show us in scripture where Daniel, or God for that matter, appointed the entire 7 years as a period of Tribulation.

 

[BenJasher]

If you want the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, I almost ignore your posts, because they are so far from how I read the bible. I think you have missed it big time! However, it is just your opinions, not you as a person, that I ignore. I believe you are a brother in the Lord. And we each have a right to our own opinion!

Thank you Coop for your candor. Very Caveman-like of you. At least now I can understand your mentality. It is very easy to summarize a mind and spirit like yours. Unteachable. You already know all the answers. You have no need to learn anything from anyone. So you therefore see no need to even consider that they could teach you something.

Bury your head in the sand and ignore what you don't understand. You fit right in with those who would kill the prophets because they didn't like what they were told. You will be guilty like the rest of them.

 

[lecoop]

Please show us in scripture where Daniel, or God for that matter, appointed the entire 7 years as a period of Tribulation.

Sorry, Vic, but I never call this "the tribulation." I call it " the 70th week of Daniel." Will there be "tribulation" in the first half of the week? I will let you decide:

1. the third part of trees was burnt up, and all green grass was burnt up.
this means no feed for the cattle, so soon, no beef to eat, and no milk to drink!

Joel 1:18
How do the beasts groan! the herds of cattle are perplexed, because they have no pasture; yea, the flocks of sheep are made desolate.

2. the third part of the sea became blood; And the third part of the creatures which were in the sea, and had life, died; and the third part of the ships were destroyed.

This was surely "tribulation" to those on the ships that were destroyed! Now, some of the fish we eat will be gone. Worse yet, perhaps the shipping lanes for our much needed oil will disappear. No oil means no trucking industry. No trucking industry mean empty shelves in the stores. This means hunger. Is this tribulation?

3. the third part of the waters became wormwood; and many men died of the waters, because they were made bitter.

This means little or nothing good to drink. for sure, this is "tribulation" for those that died.

4. and the day shone not for a third part of it, and the night likewise.

What will happen to crops with a third less light? I suspect very little harvest! Will this cause tribulation?

5. they should be tormented five months: and their torment was as the torment of a scorpion, when he striketh a man.

Will this be "tribulation?" Not to the extent that these will fear for thier life; indeed, they will want to die, but can't! It will be great pressure to put up with the intense pain.

6. By these three was the third part of men killed, by the fire,

Will this be "tribulation?" It surely will be for the 2 billion that die!

So will there be "tribulation" in the first half of the week? I will let the readers decide.

Coop

 

[Vic C.]

They are all of God. That is Wrath, not tribulation.

Plaus, you did suggest a 7 year tribulation, just by the way you answered Jay.

Jay T wrote:
Yes, I'm very interested in how some people even get a 7 year Trib. out of the Bible.

lecoop wrote:
It is really very simple: Daniel said it would be one peroid of 7....

 

[lecoop]

They are all of God. That is Wrath, not tribulation.


Vic, you are saying that if it is from God, then we should call it "wrath" rather than tribulation?

Then how do you explain this?

Rev 2:22 Behold, I will cast her into a bed, and them that commit adultery with her into great tribulation, except they repent of their deeds.

Here is the same word, with the same meaning, and God will be doing it! I think we could say then, that God's wrath causes tribulation!

How does the KJV translate this word?

AV
tribulation 21
affliction 17
trouble 3
anguish 1
persecution 1
burdened 1

All of the events of the first half of the week, causes these things. Yes, it it God's wrath; in that we agree. But His wrath causes affliction, trouble, anguish, and burdens. I guess this is why people have called this whole week "the tribulation."

Some say that Satan's wrath, bringing great tribualtion, and God's wrath, cannot be together, or happen at the same time. They are mistaken. Both Satan's wrath and God's wrath are poured out during the last half of the week.

Coop

 

[Solo]

Judgement, chastisement vs Wrath.

Two different subject.

 

[Vic C.]

Some say that Satan's wrath, bringing great tribualtion, and God's wrath, cannot be together, or happen at the same time. They are mistaken. Both Satan's wrath and God's wrath are poured out during the last half of the week.

No, they are not.

Joel 1:18
How do the beasts groan! the herds of cattle are perplexed, because they have no pasture; yea, the flocks of sheep are made desolate.

2. the third part of the sea became blood; And the third part of the creatures which were in the sea, and had life, died; and the third part of the ships were destroyed.

3. the third part of the waters became wormwood; and many men died of the waters, because they were made bitter.

4. and the day shone not for a third part of it, and the night likewise.

5. they should be tormented five months: and their torment was as the torment of a scorpion, when he striketh a man

6. By these three was the third part of men killed, by the fire,

All part of God's Wrath. All above are brought upon the wicked. This is God's vengance against those who caused persecution and Tribulation against HIS people. Retribution comes after the offense.

I see Solo is able to discern. 8-)

 

[lecoop]

All part of God's Wrath. All above are brought upon the wicked. This is God's vengance against those who caused persecution and Tribulation against HIS people. Retribution comes after the offense.

I see Solo is able to discern. 8-)

We have already decided (I hope) that God's wrath starts with the 6th seal, and is ongoing from this time on -> straight through the 70th week of Daniel and through the battle of Armegeddon. We see this in:

Rev 6:
17 For the great day of his wrath is come...
This is a referrence, not to one 24 hour period, but to the "day of the Lord." John is telling us that it is time for the "day of the Lord" to start. Joel confirms this with His prophecy of the cosmic signs. Then:

Rev 15:
1 And I saw another sign in heaven, great and marvellous, seven angels having the seven last plagues; for in them is filled up the wrath of God.

So we see scripture that the wrath of God is in the earthquake at the sixth seal, that the "day of His wrath" is about to start, and that His wrath is continuing on through the 70th week and Day of the Lord.

Now, where do we find the abomination event that causes the fleeing into the wilderness? We find two referrences to this in chapter 12, showing us that the last half of the 70th week will be from chapter 12 onward. Where will the intense persecution begin? Of course it begins with the abomination event, which happens on earth, when the 7th trumpet sounds in heaven. So when is This time of great tribulation? It is from Rev 11 on to Rev 16. When is the time of Satan's great wrath, causing this great tribulation? Of course it is the same time: from Chapter 11 on to chapter 16, which covers the second half of the 70th week.

Whoa! Isn't that the same time that God's wrath is felt in the vials? Yup! You got it! They are concurrent! Both God's wrath and Satan's wrath happen at the same time: the second half of the 70th week of Daniel, and from Rev. 11 to Rev. 16.

We find then, that God's wrath was started in the first half of the week, not because of the "tribulation" brought on by the beast, but simply becuase men refuse to repent and give God the Glory. When it is time during the last half of the week for God to start pouring out the vials if His wrath, this will be after the intense persecution has started, and therefore, it is reasonable to assume that part of God's wrath here is directed straight at the beast and His kingdom, in part, because of the tribulation against the saints.

 

[lecoop]

Judgement, chastisement vs Wrath.

Two different subject.

Oh, really?

The devil will have great wrath.

"Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time. And when the dragon saw that he was cast unto the earth, he persecuted the woman which brought forth the man child. "

So "tribulation" or "affliction," or "trouble," or "pressure," comes when the devil has wrath. This pressure is mostly felt for the constant treat of death. This pressure is directed towards anyone who refuses the mark of the beast. Jesus called this pressure, "great tribulation."

God has wrath also.

"For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?"

What does God's wrath cause? God's wrath causes "tribulation," "affliction," or "trouble," or "pressure," also, but God's wrath is directed against those with the mark of the beast. Solo calls this wrath, "Judgement or chastisement."

Therefore, what God does during this time in Revelation, is wrath, and what the devil does through the beast during his time, is also wrath. Satan's wrath is directed towards the saints, while God's wrath is directed towards the beast and his kingdom.

Each of the above "wrath" causes death: on the one hand, death of the saints, and on the other hand, death of those that take the mark of the beast.

Personally, I will take the "escape clause," (1 Thes 4:17) and not be here to feel either wrath! :smt043 :smt043 :smt043

Coop

 

[BenJasher]

What does God's wrath cause? God's wrath causes "tribulation," "affliction," or "trouble," or "pressure," also, but God's wrath is directed against those with the mark of the beast. Solo calls this wrath, "Judgement or chastisement."

One quick question, for anyone to answer for me, especially Lyle Cooper from Oklahoma:

What is the definition of God's wrath?

 

[BenJasher]

In regards to my afore asked question, I will make it easy for you.

Is God's wrath:
1) Anger and retribution
2) An intense arousal of His unquenchable desire and unstoppable love?

Be very careful. It's a trick question.

 

[BenJasher]

Personally, I will take the "escape clause," (1 Thes 4:17) and not be here to feel either wrath!

There is no "escape clause."

1Thess 4:17 is a mirror image of Hebrews 11:40. The subject matter is the same, the promise is the same. Anyone who sees an "escape clause" in these verses has no understanding of the Parousia.