The rapture of the Church

[MrVersatile48]

Hi all!

Ben, I'm sure you & I would have some great laughs, face to face

I'll say first what has come to mind when praying for you several times in the past few days

Do you not take God @ His Word?

"Who else has shown you the end from the beginning?" - see Isaiah 42:9 & Isaiah 43:12 & Isaiah 41:21-27

Do you really not think God didn't know, when He inspired the Bible prophecies, that this climax generation of all history would have nukes, biochem weapons, 'copters, planes, satellite TV, the 'Net, etc?

The message, 'Fear not', 366 times in the Bible, is for those who trust in Christ

& we are to warn the unsaved to 'seek the Lord while He may be found'

'Birthpains' is a one-word summary of Christ's reply, in Matt 24, to 'When will these things happen & what signs will show that they are near'

Since the oft-prophesied 1948 rebirth of Israel began this climax generation, there have been more prophecies fulfilled than at any time in history, because it's 'the consummation of all things' that God is most concerned about

Even Jesus, 'for the joy set before Him, endured the cross & despised the shame'

Ever since '48, the birthpains of wars, revolutions, famines, earthquakes, epidemic pestilence, persecution of the godly, false christs/messiahs/ prophets/teachers have indeed accelerated & intensified, just as all birthpains always do

But Jesus could say, "when you see all these things, don't be afraid, don't be alarmed, trust in God & trust in Me"

Why?

Because, these birthpains only serve to bring on the Great Delivery - the instant airlift Rapture rescue of all who love Jesus, before the worst time ever comes

'Otherwise no flesh would be left alive'

Sadly, folk who either fear the persecution that comes from declaring Gospel truth, or don't have the faith to believe that, 'whatever God has promised, that will He also do' - or both - invent all manner of ridiculous theologies to avoid preaching God's Word faithfully

'Men will no longer endure sound teaching, but choose to reject the truth & believe the lie'

You say I only use 1 Scripture?

How many times, in this thread, have I cited Matt 24:30-42, 1 Corinthians 15:51-58, 1 Thessalonians 4:13-5:11, Joel 3, Zechariah 12-14, Revelation 16, Isaiah 24, etc?

Just time to add another: how will all the world see the bodies of the 2 witnesses of Revelation 11 lie dead in the street for days, then be raised up to preach again?

Have you never seen how satellite TV brings the news of the whole world to the whole world?

Do you not see God's wise, loving provision of satellite TV to take His Word into Muslim etc lands where Christians are being massacred?

Anyone see http://www.God.TV on Sat am say that every day sees @ 100,000 folk come to faith in Christ?

& testimonies from every land @ hearing & learning God's Word thru Christian TV?

http://www.christianforums.net/viewtopic.php?t=24248

Must go

Ian

How major events draw huge crowds to giant public screens in cities?

 

[BenJasher]

Ian,

Thank you for praying for me! Please see the humor in what I am about to say, but; I could use the prayer, and you could use the practice.

Believe me when I say that I take God at His word. But His word is worthy of analysis and careful, prayerful thought. But I don't see the need to add to or take away from His word for the sake of making sense of my theology.

What I see nearly every time I turn around is some Futurist/Rapturian adding to the scripture, or taking away from it to explain their theology. Just like Coop did when we were talking about mansions. And just like Coop did when trying to tell everyone here that the Tribulation Period is a seven year period of time.

His statements about mansions showed a lack of careful analytical thought on the scriptures he presented. He had to overlook some details or remove them to get his point across. When I called him on that point, he came back ridiculing me for what I said, coupled with adding a bunch of other people's dreams and visions to back up what he had to say.

Even with all of the other "documentation" which was suspect at best, it still didn't agree with a basic consideration of the details of what was given to us in the first place. But he doesn't care about any of that. I don't know what it is that he does care about, but it isn't clarity of understanding.

On the subject of a seven year Tribulation Period, he had to add his own thoughts and fantasies, claiming to have had the Holy Spirit tell him that the Tribulation Period is only seven years long and that the Rapture was to happen prior to that. Every time I read something like that, my nostrils are assaulted with the strong odor of a rancid cattle pen.

I don't care what spirit peeps and mutters to you; if what they say doesn't agree with the scriptures it is a lying spirit.

Adding to, and/or taking away from the scriptures is not how we are to interpret the scriptures. It leads to error. It leads to confusion. I catch myself doing it on occasion. But I try not to do that when I present my views on the scriptures in this format. It is something that is natural for us to do when we are comfortable with something as being truth. So I can't fault a guy for doing it. It just isn't how we are to interpret scriptures.

We need to be rooted and grounded in truth to begin with first and foremost. And anyone who thinks that they are going to be Raptured didn't just miss the boat, they showed up at the wrong pier. They are confused before they get a chance to gain any understanding of the scriptures. Pre-, Mid-, or Post-, it doesn't matter, the outcome is the same: "Woops!"

I take the message of "Fear not" very literally. It is something I live by and teach to my congregation. Vic uses my favorite scripture on this subject in his sig file. I could launch off into a lengthy dissertation on "Fear Not" right now, but I will abstain.

What you must bear in mind about Matthew 24 is that the words of Jesus there are given in the context of the question asked Him by His Disciples. The question had to do with the signs of His coming and the end of the age. We are already living in a completely different age than what they were in at the time this question was asked. But He also said that the generation of people He was then talking to would not pass til all these things be fulfilled. That word "generation" has to do with a passage of time, and not a race of people. In other words; the age group of people He spoke those words to would not pass till all His prophecies about the end of the age and of His Coming had been fulfilled.

Now, what I just said about Matthew 24 had nothing added to nor anything taken away. It was purely an analysis of what was said. There is no fairy tales added to it; no visions of heaven, and noone was raised from the dead while I said all of it. Neither were there any earthquakes. Just a simple explanation of what was said. And if that doesn't agree with your theology, and this goes for anybody, then it is your theology that needs to be brought into agreement with the scriptures.

Please continue to pray for me. I could use the prayer, and you can use the practice. :-D

 

[lecoop]

BenJasher said,

What you must bear in mind about Matthew 24 is that the words of Jesus there are given in the context of the question asked Him by His Disciples. The question had to do with the signs of His coming and the end of the age. We are already living in a completely different age than what they were in at the time this question was asked. But He also said that the generation of people He was then talking to would not pass til all these things be fulfilled. That word "generation" has to do with a passage of time, and not a race of people. In other words; the age group of people He spoke those words to would not pass till all His prophecies about the end of the age and of His Coming had been fulfilled.

The question had to do with the signs of His coming and the end of the age. We are already living in a completely different age...

We are in agreement that the church age had not started, because Jesus had not yet risen from the dead. They were at that time, in the end of the age of Law - or were they? And for what "age" was Jesus going to give them the signs?

Daniel said, "Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city,..."

There can be no doubt that "thy people" is referring to the descendants of Jacob: the 12 tribes of Israel. There can be no doubt that the "holy city" is in reference to Jerusalem.

Daniel went on to say: "Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks..." (69 weeks).

Hmm, 69 is one short of 70. Where is the last week?

Daniel continues: "And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate,..."

Jesus spoke of this in His discourse:

15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand

Jesus was, therefore, speaking of the "70th week of Daniel." Again, there can be no doubt that by this "seven" or last week, Daniel was speaking of a 7 year period of time. We have seven verses, all speaking of a 3 1/2 year period of time for the last half of this week, that proves this. Daniel said, "in the midst of the week," or in the middle of the week. "Middle" divides a 7 year period of time into two each, 3 1/2 year periods of time. And 7 times, God have us proof of this.

There can be no doubt then, that Jesus was, indeed, speaking of the end of that age, the same age that the disciples were living in. what BenJasher has failed to realize is that that age was not finished, but the church age was "inserted" temporarily into that age. At the rapture of the church, "time" or God's clock, will go right back to the age of the Law, right where God left it, when the church age started. God will then finish the 70th week of Daniel.

Coop

 

[BenJasher]

There's no doubt that the power thay are given is given by permission of God.

Rev 9:4 And it was commanded them that they should not hurt the grass of the earth, neither any green thing, neither any tree; but only those men which have not the seal of God in their foreheads.

No one but God would issue such a commandment.

Rev 9:5 And to them it was given that they should not kill them, but that they should be tormented five months: and their torment was as the torment of a scorpion, when he striketh a man.
Rev 9:6 And in those days shall men seek death, and shall not find it; and shall desire to die, and death shall flee from them.

Again, from God.

But these demons have a ruler:

Rev 9:11 And they had a king over them, which is the angel of the bottomless pit, whose name in the Hebrew tongue is Abaddon, but in the Greek tongue hath his name Apollyon.

Who is this ruler? Ben, would God grant leadership of HIS army to Apollyon?

I believe not only that He would, but that the scriptures here state that He did. The king in charge of this army is the "angel of the Bottomless Pit." This is purported to be Satan. But that notion doesn't hold up.

The Angel of The Bottomless Pit would have immediate supervisory control over the bottomless pit. That is what the title indicates. At a different place in this same book we see Satan bound and cast into the Bottomless Pit. That would indicate that Satan was given into the custody of the Angel of The Bottomless Pit. Satan and Abaddon and/or Apollyon aren't the same entity.

We know that God has Angels that do some gruesome things. He had the Angel of Death. The Grim Reaper is one of His servants. Every firstborn male of the Land of Egypt was killed by the Angel of Death.

We also know that God had four angels who had been held in abeyance until a certain day of a certain week of a certain month, at which time they were loosed. Their job was to kill one third of mankind.

We also know that Satan appeared before the Throne of God with the Sons of God as though he were one of them. We also know that God's treatment of him at that time give us no reason to think that Satan is not one of His sons.

The fact that his name (The Angel of The Bottomless Pit) means destroyer in one tongue and destruction in another would seem to indicate his involvement with the 4 locusts of Joel.

All things considered, I see no reason to not believe this about Apollyon:

1)That he is an Angel of God who up til now has not been introduced to us.
2) That he is in charge of the armies of both Joel and Revelations.
3) That it should not be considered strange to us that God would give control of His army over to one of His angels.

In Joel where the appearance of this vast army, the destruction it leaves in it's path, and the restoration of the things taken by this army is tied to the outpouring of the Holy Spirit.

So also in Revelations 9. The army of locusts is tied to the torment of mankind, the passing of a woe, and the coming of the horsemen who are to kill a third of mankind. All of this is tied with what comes in Chapter 10 with the opening of the seventh seal, which will bring a speedy fulfillment of all that the prophets had spoken of.

Both armies bring great blessing upon mankind through destruction. Only God can see the wisdom in that and/or accomplish that.

These two groups, in my analysis, are one and the same. They are the army of God, commanded by an Angel of God.

I hope to have answered your questions.

If you want anymore you can sing it yourself, groundhog...

 

[BenJasher]

Wrong again Coop.

Go back and think it through one more time and tell me what you found.

 

[Gabbylittleangel]

There's no doubt that the power thay are given is given by permission of God.

Rev 9:4 And it was commanded them that they should not hurt the grass of the earth, neither any green thing, neither any tree; but only those men which have not the seal of God in their foreheads.

No one but God would issue such a commandment.

Rev 9:5 And to them it was given that they should not kill them, but that they should be tormented five months: and their torment was as the torment of a scorpion, when he striketh a man.
Rev 9:6 And in those days shall men seek death, and shall not find it; and shall desire to die, and death shall flee from them.

Again, from God.

But these demons have a ruler:

Rev 9:11 And they had a king over them, which is the angel of the bottomless pit, whose name in the Hebrew tongue is Abaddon, but in the Greek tongue hath his name Apollyon.

Who is this ruler? Ben, would God grant leadership of HIS army to Apollyon?

Vic,

The power of the gospel does not stop working when the antichrist and the beast show up. I don't believe that God directly gives power to this wickedness.

I believe that the power of the blood of Jesus, the power of prayer, the power of the name of Jesus are in full force. The Lord delegated power to His people. It is the church that gives power to the beast, simply by not stopping it. Either due to complacency, or lack of knowledge.

God gave us the command to 'occupy'. A military term, such as a soldier stands guard. ( not simply taking up space) God has given to us all that we need to what we have been commanded to do. Granted, the existence of the beast, is not all the fault of the final generation of the church. I believe that if we go back a hundred years or so, we can see that the church began giving up ground to the beast, and sowing to the wind. It is this generation has inherited the whirlwind.

 

[BenJasher]

Oh well. Here goes:

We are in agreement that the church age had not started, because Jesus had not yet risen from the dead. They were at that time, in the end of the age of Law - or were they? And for what "age" was Jesus going to give them the signs?

Daniel said, "Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city,..."

There can be no doubt that "thy people" is referring to the descendants of Jacob: the 12 tribes of Israel. There can be no doubt that the "holy city" is in reference to Jerusalem.

{ok...}

Daniel went on to say: "Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks..." (69 weeks).

Hmm, 69 is one short of 70. Where is the last week?

{How about immediately following the 69th? Otherwise it would have some other number. This has already been discussed.}

Daniel continues: "And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate,..."

Jesus spoke of this in His discourse:

15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand

Jesus was, therefore, speaking of the "70th week of Daniel." Again, there can be no doubt that by this "seven" or last week, Daniel was speaking of a 7 year period of time.

{Yada, Yada...}

We have seven verses, all speaking of a 3 1/2 year period of time for the last half of this week, that proves this. Daniel said, "in the midst of the week," or in the middle of the week. "Middle" divides a 7 year period of time into two each, 3 1/2 year periods of time. And 7 times, God have us proof of this.

These verse do not speak of 3 1/2 years. It actually says "time, times and half a time" I won't go into it here, but "time" refers to a 360 year period of time. So what you are calling 3 1/2 years is very likely to be 1260 years. But I don't want to confuse you more than you already are...}

There can be no doubt then, that Jesus was, indeed, speaking of the end of that age, the same age that the disciples were living in. what BenJasher has failed to realize is that that age was not finished, but the church age was "inserted" temporarily into that age. At the rapture of the church, "time" or God's clock, will go right back to the age of the Law, right where God left it, when the church age started. God will then finish the 70th week of Daniel.

{ I have been patient with you til now. Now it is time for you to listen to reason for once.

What you just did was completely wrong. You added things to that scripture passage that don't belong there. Not to mention that what you added was nowhere near correct to begin with. There is no scriptural basis for an "interruption" of an age, or the "insertion" of one into another as you seem to think there is. There is no mention of it anywhere. There is no promise of it. It was never done before at any time. That isn't how the precession of the Ages takes place.

I can see why you would add to the scripture this way. It is the only way your theology makes sense. In the end, speculative reasoning does not amount to nor equate to truth. It isn't your strong point anyway.}

 

[Vic C.]

Vic,

The power of the gospel does not stop working when the antichrist and the beast show up. I don't believe that God directly gives power to this wickedness.

Honestly, I am perfectly ok with the explaination Ben gave above concerning my question.

I believe that the power of the blood of Jesus, the power of prayer, the power of the name of Jesus are in full force. The Lord delegated power to His people. It is the church that gives power to the beast, simply by not stopping it. Either due to complacency, or lack of knowledge.

God gave us the command to 'occupy'. A military term, such as a soldier stands guard. ( not simply taking up space) God has given to us all that we need to what we have been commanded to do. Granted, the existence of the beast, is not all the fault of the final generation of the church. I believe that if we go back a hundred years or so, we can see that the church began giving up ground to the beast, and sowing to the wind. It is this generation has inherited the whirlwind.

The Beast was defeated 2,000 years ago, by the death of and death defeated by Jesus Himself. We give this beast no ground at all over and above God's permissiveness.

1 Cor 15:54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.

1 Cor 15:57 But thanks be to God, which giveth us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.

 

[MrVersatile48]

Hi all!

Having read all page 17, I must say first what really leapt out strongest

Ben, I try as much as possible to harmonise Scriptures & to let the Bible speak for itself as much as possible

What you miss, in Matt 24, is that Jesus speaks of the generation that sees the fig tree of Israel put forth her leaves - the Luke 21 account adds '& all the trees'

The fig tree is a recurring Bible picture of Israel, just as the cedars of Lebanon - 'all the trees' is a remarkable prophecy of the UN - was that not formalised in 1948 too?

Several prophecies, in Isaiah alone, say, 'then all nations will know that the Lord alone is God'

Israel's rebirth, after long global exile, is prophesied for this climax generation of history - as in Daniel 7, Ezekiel 36, Jeremiah 31, etc

Daniel 7 forecasts the revived Roman Empire as bringing forth the worst tyrant ever - the beast more terrible than any other

EU - as the EEC - was also founded in '48 & heralded by 'founding father' Monet as a 'revived Roman Empire'

Dan 7 forecasts it, 3 times, to crush, devour & trample victims till the Ancient of Days crushes it

Just time now to point to the Rev 9:6 prophecy @ men seeking death but not finding it

National Enquirer, 5/10/76, reported lab tests of an 'instant mass brainwashing sound' ready to broadcast, ensuring hearers believe everything that is then said

Volunteers even repeated 'black is white'

Jesus encouraged us to be watchful & to know how to interpret the signs of the times - in line with His Word, that is

We need more 'men of Issachar who understand the times'

No modern invention has surprised God

Daniel 12 forecast knowledge & travel to multiply @ the endtime

We see the political alliances involved in Ezekiel 38-39 rapidly forming & strengthening

'NOW is the day of salvation'

& how amazing that this generation has the techno to evangelise the whole world @ this time - again as per Matt 24

Must go

Ian

 

[BenJasher]

Ian,

I don't disagree with anything you just said. We should be watchful. We should be aware of the signs of the times.

But I have a problem with Matthew 24 and Luke 21 being of Futurist interpretation. Because Jesus that "This generation shall not pass away till all these things be fulfilled." Check out that word "generation". It has to do with a passage of time as opposed to a race of people. When Jesus said this generation shall not pass away... He was talking about the people who were alive at the time He said those things. Those people who heard Him say those things saw those things come to pass in their lifetimes. There is no way, exegetically, that those words and prophecies are to be assigned to any other generation. And a good look at the history of those people after Jesus ascended shows that these things did come to pass without question.

I know it is something you have a hard time wrapping your brain around. That is because of what you have been taught all these years.

About the Fig Tree:
Now, I too have questions. But I know that the Rapture/Tribulation Period idea is not the answer. Foolishness is never the answer to a serious question. It is OK to not have all the answers. But like I said, the Rapture is not an answer.

But concerning the Fig Tree, I am not so certain Jesus intended to refer to Israel when He gave that parable. He simply said "Learn the parable of the Fig Tree..." And I went into this in my commentary on Matthew 24 on page 2 of this thread. That brings up more questions, but it answers quite a few at the same time. For me, the jury is still out on the fig tree.

I have to be honest about it. The Fig Tree is the only place where His words don't fit snugly into history. Any other part of Matthew 24 or Luke 21, or even Mark 13, I am very confident is historical by now.

 

[MrVersatile48]

Ben, I only have 2 minutes to say that your position is like saying the world ended 2000 years ago

I'll just print those Israel prophecies, as it's 'THIS generation'

Ezekiel 36

A Prophecy to the Mountains of Israel

1 "Son of man, prophesy to the mountains of Israel and say, 'O mountains of Israel, hear the word of the LORD. 2 This is what the Sovereign LORD says: The enemy said of you, "Aha! The ancient heights have become our possession." '

3 Therefore prophesy and say, 'This is what the Sovereign LORD says: Because they ravaged and hounded you from every side so that you became the possession of the rest of the nations and the object of people's malicious talk and slander,

4 therefore, O mountains of Israel, hear the word of the Sovereign LORD : This is what the Sovereign LORD says to the mountains and hills, to the ravines and valleys, to the desolate ruins and the deserted towns that have been plundered and ridiculed by the rest of the nations around you-

5 this is what the Sovereign LORD says: In my burning zeal I have spoken against the rest of the nations, and against all Edom, for with glee and with malice in their hearts they made my land their own possession so that they might plunder its pastureland.'

6 Therefore prophesy concerning the land of Israel and say to the mountains and hills, to the ravines and valleys: 'This is what the Sovereign LORD says: I speak in my jealous wrath because you have suffered the scorn of the nations.

7 Therefore this is what the Sovereign LORD says: I swear with uplifted hand that the nations around you will also suffer scorn.

8 " 'But you, O mountains of Israel, will produce branches and fruit for my people Israel, for they will soon come home. 9 I am concerned for you and will look on you with favor; you will be plowed and sown, 10 and I will multiply the number of people upon you, even the whole house of Israel.

The towns will be inhabited and the ruins rebuilt. 11 I will increase the number of men and animals upon you, and they will be fruitful and become numerous. I will settle people on you as in the past and will make you prosper more than before. Then you will know that I am the LORD.

12 I will cause people, my people Israel, to walk upon you. They will possess you, and you will be their inheritance; you will never again deprive them of their children.

13 " 'This is what the Sovereign LORD says: Because people say to you, "You devour men and deprive your nation of its children," 14 therefore you will no longer devour men or make your nation childless, declares the Sovereign LORD.

15 No longer will I make you hear the taunts of the nations, and no longer will you suffer the scorn of the peoples or cause your nation to fall, declares the Sovereign LORD.' "

16 Again the word of the LORD came to me: 17 "Son of man, when the people of Israel were living in their own land, they defiled it by their conduct and their actions. Their conduct was like a woman's monthly uncleanness in my sight. 18 So I poured out my wrath on them because they had shed blood in the land and because they had defiled it with their idols.

19 I dispersed them among the nations, and they were scattered through the countries; I judged them according to their conduct and their actions. 20 And wherever they went among the nations they profaned my holy name, for it was said of them, 'These are the LORD's people, and yet they had to leave his land.' 21 I had concern for my holy name, which the house of Israel profaned among the nations where they had gone.

22 "Therefore say to the house of Israel, 'This is what the Sovereign LORD says: It is not for your sake, O house of Israel, that I am going to do these things, but for the sake of my holy name, which you have profaned among the nations where you have gone.

23 I will show the holiness of my great name, which has been profaned among the nations, the name you have profaned among them. Then the nations will know that I am the LORD, declares the Sovereign LORD, when I show myself holy through you before their eyes.

24 " 'For I will take you out of the nations; I will gather you from all the countries and bring you back into your own land. 25 I will sprinkle clean water on you, and you will be clean; I will cleanse you from all your impurities and from all your idols. 26 I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit in you; I will remove from you your heart of stone and give you a heart of flesh. 27 And I will put my Spirit in you and move you to follow my decrees and be careful to keep my laws.

28 You will live in the land I gave your forefathers; you will be my people, and I will be your God.

29 I will save you from all your uncleanness. I will call for the grain and make it plentiful and will not bring famine upon you.

30 I will increase the fruit of the trees and the crops of the field, so that you will no longer suffer disgrace among the nations because of famine. 31 Then you will remember your evil ways and wicked deeds, and you will loathe yourselves for your sins and detestable practices. 32 I want you to know that I am not doing this for your sake, declares the Sovereign LORD. Be ashamed and disgraced for your conduct, O house of Israel!

33 " 'This is what the Sovereign LORD says: On the day I cleanse you from all your sins, I will resettle your towns, and the ruins will be rebuilt. 34 The desolate land will be cultivated instead of lying desolate in the sight of all who pass through it. 35 They will say, "This land that was laid waste has become like the garden of Eden; the cities that were lying in ruins, desolate and destroyed, are now fortified and inhabited."

36 Then the nations around you that remain will know that I the LORD have rebuilt what was destroyed and have replanted what was desolate. I the LORD have spoken, and I will do it.'

37 "This is what the Sovereign LORD says: Once again I will yield to the plea of the house of Israel and do this for them: I will make their people as numerous as sheep, 38 as numerous as the flocks for offerings at Jerusalem during her appointed feasts. So will the ruined cities be filled with flocks of people. Then they will know that I am the LORD."


4 more mins, as I missed a bus - don't anyone 'miss the bus' when the Rapture hits, for the Bible promises it, whatever Ben says

Jeremiah 31

1 "At that time," declares the LORD, "I will be the God of all the clans of Israel, and they will be my people."

2 This is what the LORD says:
"The people who survive the sword
will find favor in the desert;
I will come to give rest to Israel."

3 The LORD appeared to us in the past, [a] saying:
"I have loved you with an everlasting love;
I have drawn you with loving-kindness.

4 I will build you up again
and you will be rebuilt, O Virgin Israel.
Again you will take up your tambourines
and go out to dance with the joyful.

5 Again you will plant vineyards
on the hills of Samaria;
the farmers will plant them
and enjoy their fruit.

6 There will be a day when watchmen cry out
on the hills of Ephraim,
'Come, let us go up to Zion,
to the LORD our God.' "

7 This is what the LORD says:
"Sing with joy for Jacob;
shout for the foremost of the nations.
Make your praises heard, and say,
'O LORD, save your people,
the remnant of Israel.'

8 See, I will bring them from the land of the north
and gather them from the ends of the earth.
Among them will be the blind and the lame,
expectant mothers and women in labor;
a great throng will return.

9 They will come with weeping;
they will pray as I bring them back.
I will lead them beside streams of water
on a level path where they will not stumble,
because I am Israel's father,
and Ephraim is my firstborn son.

10 "Hear the word of the LORD, O nations;
proclaim it in distant coastlands:
'He who scattered Israel will gather them
and will watch over his flock like a shepherd.'

11 For the LORD will ransom Jacob
and redeem them from the hand of those stronger than they.

12 They will come and shout for joy on the heights of Zion;
they will rejoice in the bounty of the LORDâ€â€
the grain, the new wine and the oil,
the young of the flocks and herds.
They will be like a well-watered garden,
and they will sorrow no more.

13 Then maidens will dance and be glad,
young men and old as well.
I will turn their mourning into gladness;
I will give them comfort and joy instead of sorrow.

14 I will satisfy the priests with abundance,
and my people will be filled with my bounty,"
declares the LORD.

15 This is what the LORD says:
"A voice is heard in Ramah,
mourning and great weeping,
Rachel weeping for her children
and refusing to be comforted,
because her children are no more."

16 This is what the LORD says:
"Restrain your voice from weeping
and your eyes from tears,
for your work will be rewarded,"
declares the LORD.
"They will return from the land of the enemy.

17 So there is hope for your future,"
declares the LORD.
"Your children will return to their own land.

18 "I have surely heard Ephraim's moaning:
'You disciplined me like an unruly calf,
and I have been disciplined.
Restore me, and I will return,
because you are the LORD my God.

19 After I strayed,
I repented;
after I came to understand,
I beat my breast.
I was ashamed and humiliated
because I bore the disgrace of my youth.'

20 Is not Ephraim my dear son,
the child in whom I delight?
Though I often speak against him,
I still remember him.
Therefore my heart yearns for him;
I have great compassion for him,"
declares the LORD.

21 "Set up road signs;
put up guideposts.
Take note of the highway,
the road that you take.
Return, O Virgin Israel,
return to your towns.

22 How long will you wander,
O unfaithful daughter?
The LORD will create a new thing on earthâ€â€
a woman will surround a man."

23 This is what the LORD Almighty, the God of Israel, says: "When I bring them back from captivity, [c] the people in the land of Judah and in its towns will once again use these words: 'The LORD bless you, O righteous dwelling, O sacred mountain.' 24 People will live together in Judah and all its townsâ€â€farmers and those who move about with their flocks. 25 I will refresh the weary and satisfy the faint."

26 At this I awoke and looked around. My sleep had been pleasant to me.

27 "The days are coming," declares the LORD, "when I will plant the house of Israel and the house of Judah with the offspring of men and of animals. 28 Just as I watched over them to uproot and tear down, and to overthrow, destroy and bring disaster, so I will watch over them to build and to plant," declares the LORD. 29 "In those days people will no longer say,
'The fathers have eaten sour grapes,
and the children's teeth are set on edge.'

30 Instead, everyone will die for his own sin; whoever eats sour grapesâ€â€his own teeth will be set on edge.

31 "The time is coming," declares the LORD,
"when I will make a new covenant
with the house of Israel
and with the house of Judah.

32 It will not be like the covenant
I made with their forefathers
when I took them by the hand
to lead them out of Egypt,
because they broke my covenant,
though I was a husband to [d] them, [e] "
declares the LORD.

33 "This is the covenant I will make with the house of Israel
after that time," declares the LORD.
"I will put my law in their minds
and write it on their hearts.
I will be their God,
and they will be my people.

34 No longer will a man teach his neighbor,
or a man his brother, saying, 'Know the LORD,'
because they will all know me,
from the least of them to the greatest,"
declares the LORD.
"For I will forgive their wickedness
and will remember their sins no more."

35 This is what the LORD says,
he who appoints the sun
to shine by day,
who decrees the moon and stars
to shine by night,
who stirs up the sea
so that its waves roarâ€â€
the LORD Almighty is his name:

36 "Only if these decrees vanish from my sight,"
declares the LORD,
"will the descendants of Israel ever cease
to be a nation before me."

37 This is what the LORD says:
"Only if the heavens above can be measured
and the foundations of the earth below be searched out
will I reject all the descendants of Israel
because of all they have done,"
declares the LORD.

38 "The days are coming," declares the LORD, "when this city will be rebuilt for me from the Tower of Hananel to the Corner Gate. 39 The measuring line will stretch from there straight to the hill of Gareb and then turn to Goah. 40 The whole valley where dead bodies and ashes are thrown, and all the terraces out to the Kidron Valley on the east as far as the corner of the Horse Gate, will be holy to the LORD. The city will never again be uprooted or demolished."



Ian[/i]

 

[BenJasher]

Ian;

I am familiar with Ezekiel 36. Did you honestly think I would not be? Or that I wouldn't have a reasonable explanation for it that is different to yours?

Think for just a second. {We should be quick to stop and think at times, and slow to charge headlong into something before we have considered all the facts. } Who is the subject of Ezekiel 36? Who was this prophecy written to, for and about? Who is the only people capable of being the ones to and for whom this prophecy is fulfilled? It is Israel. Israel alone and noone else. And unless you are of one of the 12 Tribes of Israel, that prophecy has no bearing on you. It makes for interesting reading, but it doesn't pertain to you.

4 more mins, as I missed a bus - don't anyone miss the bus when the Rapture hits, for the Bible promises it, whatever Ben says

What is your typing speed? It has to be somewhere about 250 wpm. Your accuracy level has to be in the high 90's. I bet you are a secretary somewhere, a Law office maybe? I used to be. My responsibilities nowadays are a bit different. But I couldn't do what I do without a good secretary.

Ben, I only have 2 minutes to say that your position is like saying the world ended 2000 years ago

If the signs in the Sun, Moon and Stars, the distress of nations, the destruction of Jerusalem, the coming of the Son of Man are what dictates the end of the world, as many suppose it will; I can only say YES, that would be right.

But we know the world didn't end 2000 years ago. The mistranslation of that particular Greek word has had a bunch of folks thinking that this planet was going to cease to be, in fulfillment of these prophecies. It is for them a thing to feared, and not something to look forward to. However we do know that the age that existed then did come to an end. We are no longer under the authority of the Aaronic or Levitical Priesthood. We are under the Melchisidek Priesthood. We are not under Law, we are under Grace, We no longer need the blood of bulls and goats to cleanse us of sin every year. We have the shed blood of Jesus to cleanse us of sin once and for all.

Yes, that world/age did end 2000 years ago.

Furthermore, there is coming soon another move of the Holy Spirit that will bring about the end of this world again as we know it. Otherwise Joel lied to us when he prophesied the outpouring of the Holy Spirit in two separate waves.

The most basic of scriptures, and the most important of promises given to us are swept away as though they were less than nothing in order to continue your delusion of error known as Futurist theology.

If you guys want to hold onto your petty pet doctrines based on falsehood and witchcraft, (and not scripture), fine. You can talk about the Rapture till your tongue rots out of your head. It won't make the Rapture any more scriptural.

Another 42 generations will pass and the Futurists will still be looking for the Rapture and they will still be arguing with each other over non-issues such as Pre-, Mid-, or Post. They will still be looking for the Anti-Christ to appear, and still be looking for Jesus to appear in the sky at the sound of Gabriel's trumpet. And they still won't know that the Rapture isn't scriptural.

We have had the Former Rain of the Holy Spirit. That came to us in the Second Chapter of Acts. We now await the Latter Rain outpouring of the Holy Spirit. And for things to be completely in agreement with scripture, the Restitution of all things has to come to pass before Jesus comes again. Those words came from the mouths of two angels that appeared amongst the disciples the day Jesus ascended into heaven. The heavens must retain Him till the Restitution of all things.

We must wait till all things that are wrong have been made right, every sin atoned for and repented of, and all things are as they should be before we will ever see His person again. That is scriptural.

Like I have said so many times in this discussion, the Rapture Theory, and/or Futurist Theology needs to be given a serious deeper look. If Rapturians/Futurists just stopped and THOUGHT for a moment about what they think they believe, they would begin to see how asinine and just plain wrong their beliefs are.

It has been my earnest desire in these discussion to get, at the very least, one person to do just that: to stop and think for a second and allow it to come into their consciousness just how wrong the Rapture Theory really is. It isn't hard to see. You just need to be able to open your eyes.

 

[Vic C.]

Ben, I am going to call you on these couple of things and ask that you clarify:

We have had the Former Rain of the Holy Spirit. That came to us in the Second Chapter of Acts. We now await the Latter Rain outpouring of the Holy Spirit.

I am aware of Joel's former and latter rain, but can you show us in Joel 2:28-32 where there is a second outpouring of the Spirit? Maybe my glasses are dirty. 8-)

And for things to be completely in agreement with scripture, the Restitution of all things has to come to pass before Jesus comes again. Those words came from the mouths of two angels that appeared amongst the disciples the day Jesus ascended into heaven. The heavens must retain Him till the Restitution of all things.

Oh we understand scripture differently on this issue. 1 Corinthians 15:23-26 seems to indicate Jesus has already returned before He delivers up the Kingdom to God.

1 Cor 15:25 For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.

The last thing done by Jesus before God resumes Kingship over the Kingdom
and death is destroyed.

Those words came from the mouths of two angels that appeared amongst the disciples the day Jesus ascended into heaven

Na ah! :-D This all they said:

Acts 1:11 Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven.

Anyway, not looking to debate... loking for clarification on how you are interpreting these verses.

 

[lecoop]

Ian,

I don't disagree with anything you just said. We should be watchful. We should be aware of the signs of the times.

But I have a problem with Matthew 24 and Luke 21 being of Futurist interpretation. Because Jesus that "This generation shall not pass away till all these things be fulfilled." Check out that word "generation". It has to do with a passage of time as opposed to a race of people. When Jesus said this generation shall not pass away... He was talking about the people who were alive at the time He said those things. Those people who heard Him say those things saw those things come to pass in their lifetimes. There is no way, exegetically, that those words and prophecies are to be assigned to any other generation. And a good look at the history of those people after Jesus ascended shows that these things did come to pass without question.

I know it is something you have a hard time wrapping your brain around. That is because of what you have been taught all these years.

About the Fig Tree:
Now, I too have questions. But I know that the Rapture/Tribulation Period idea is not the answer. Foolishness is never the answer to a serious question. It is OK to not have all the answers. But like I said, the Rapture is not an answer.

But concerning the Fig Tree, I am not so certain Jesus intended to refer to Israel when He gave that parable. He simply said "Learn the parable of the Fig Tree..." And I went into this in my commentary on Matthew 24 on page 2 of this thread. That brings up more questions, but it answers quite a few at the same time. For me, the jury is still out on the fig tree.

I have to be honest about it. The Fig Tree is the only place where His words don't fit snugly into history. Any other part of Matthew 24 or Luke 21, or even Mark 13, I am very confident is historical by now.

A passage of time????????????????????

What could Jesus have meant by "generation?" (Of course He did not use the English word.) Here are possible meanings:

From Thayer's
genea {ghen-eh-ah'}
1) fathered, birth, nativity

2) that which has been begotten, men of the same stock, a family

a) the several ranks of natural descent, the successive members of a genealogy

b) metaph. a group of men very like each other in endowments, pursuits, character

1) esp. in a bad sense, a perverse nation

3) the whole multitude of men living at the same time

4) an age (i.e. the time ordinarily occupied be each successive generation), a space of 30 - 33 years


Note what Jesus said, using meaning #3 above.

29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
32 Now learn a parable of the fig tree; When his branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer is nigh:
33 So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors.
34Verily I say unto you, This generation [the whole multitude of men living at the time of the signs] shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.

Who is "ye" in verse 33?
Who is "you" in verse 34?

It is which ever generation sees the tribulation [70th week of Daniel] come and go, then sees the signs in the sun, moon, stars and heavens. If this generation [the one that sees the signs] can look at the buds on trees and see that spring has sprung, then they should be able to discern these signs and know that Jesus is about to return.

I know, some people like to take verse 34 to mean the generation of the disciples, and then twist every other end time scripture in the bible to make that idea fit. That is like forcing a round peg into a square whole: it just doesn't fit! How much better to take the entire book of Revelation, and see the chronology there.

I know, some people try to prove that the 70th week of Daniel, i.e., the "tribulation," has come and gone. That is just one more man made doctrine, caused by a lack of understanding of Revelation.

Therefore, Jesus was not necessarily talking about the people who were alive at the time He said those things. He was speaking to the generation that would see the 70th week come and go, and then see the signs of His coming.

Coop

 

[BenJasher]

Ben, I am going to call you on these couple of things and ask that you clarify:


Na ah! :-D This all they said:

Acts 1:11 Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven.

Anyway, not looking to debate... loking for clarification on how you are interpreting these verses.

Actually Vic, it wasn't at the Ascension where these words were spoken. I got all caught up in a moment when I said that. I was wrong. But it was spoken by Peter in his second sermon. Acts 3:21. "Whom the heavens must retain til the times of the Restitution of all things."

I am aware of Joel's former and latter rain, but can you show us in Joel 2:28-32 where there is a second outpouring of the Spirit? Maybe my glasses are dirty.

Coming right up! Look in verse 23. Your glasses weren't dirty, you just weren't looking in the right place.

Oh we understand scripture differently on this issue. 1 Corinthians 15:23-26 seems to indicate Jesus has already returned before He delivers up the Kingdom to God.

1 Cor 15:25 For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.

The last thing done by Jesus before God resumes Kingship over the Kingdom and death is destroyed.

You impress me deeply Vic. Am I to take it that you understand what you just said? :-D

But I am not sure I get the point of your question. Just because the heavens retain Him doesn't mean that He doesn't reign Supreme over all creation during that time.

There isn't any reason to believe that His coming, in this passage, would be anything other than what Peter prophesied in his second sermon.

 

[MrVersatile48]

I'll reply in bold here, OK?

Ian;

Hi Ben - the bold is working, y'all! 8-)

I am familiar with Ezekiel 36. Did you honestly think I would not be? Or that I wouldn't have a reasonable explanation for it that is different to yours?



Ben, if you ever clicked my profile, you'd know I'm the interdenominational evangelical Bible College grad son of an interdenominational evangelical Bible College grad & have sung/played/acted etc in churches of many labels, as well as been on forums like this for years & been President of a college CU, so I'm used to 'the ministry of reconciliation' :wink:

Think for just a second. {We should be quick to stop and think at times, and slow to charge headlong into something before we have considered all the facts. } Who is the subject of Ezekiel 36? Who was this prophecy written to, for and about? Who is the only people capable of being the ones to and for whom this prophecy is fulfilled? It is Israel. Israel alone and noone else. And unless you are of one of the 12 Tribes of Israel, that prophecy has no bearing on you. It makes for interesting reading, but it doesn't pertain to you.

'All the promises of God are yes & amen in Christ'

But yes, much is @ the literal, physical Israel

I only have 7 mins, so I'll say what was laid on my heart in prayer last night

Right to the last minute before the 1948 declaration, some wanted the name Judah & some wanted Zion

But God had prophesied the name Israel - when Ezekiel wrote, the land hadn't been called Israel for @ 1250 years, & 1948 was @ 2520 years future

Both Ezekiel 36 & Jeremiah 31 say, several times, that God would both scatter Jews worldwide & regather them from worldwide

Jerusalem was destroyed in AD 70 & that's when the global dispersion happened

It's like many say that Isaiah couldn't possibly have been written before the Persian Empire, as it named Cyrus - centuries before he was born

But on your non-futurist reasoning, Isaiah can't be written even yet, as it ends - Isaiah 65-66, speaking of the new Heavens & New Earth (& the destruction of this present Earth, as does Revelation 21)

"Who else has shown you the end from the beginning?" - see Isaiah 42:9 & Isaiah 43:12 & Isaiah 41:21-27

Try going round with your eyes open, Ben :o

.

Isaiah 41:21-27 (New International Version)


21 "Present your case," says the LORD.
"Set forth your arguments," says Jacob's King.

22 "Bring in your idols to tell us
what is going to happen.
Tell us what the former things were,
so that we may consider them
and know their final outcome.
Or declare to us the things to come,

23 tell us what the future holds,
so we may know that you are gods.
Do something, whether good or bad,
so that we will be dismayed and filled with fear.

24 But you are less than nothing
and your works are utterly worthless;
he who chooses you is detestable.

25 "I have stirred up one from the north, and he comesâ€â€
one from the rising sun who calls on my name.
He treads on rulers as if they were mortar,
as if he were a potter treading the clay.

26 Who told of this from the beginning, so we could know,
or beforehand, so we could say, 'He was right'?
No one told of this,
no one foretold it,
no one heard any words from you.

27 I was the first to tell Zion, 'Look, here they are!'
I gave to Jerusalem a messenger of good tidings.



Isaiah 42:9 (New International Version)


9 See, the former things have taken place,
and new things I declare;
before they spring into being
I announce them to you."


Isaiah 43:12 (New International Version)


12 I have revealed and saved and proclaimedâ€â€
I, and not some foreign god among you.
You are my witnesses," declares the LORD, "that I am God.



This'll cheer ya up, Ben:- :roll:

http://www.christianforums.net/viewtopi ... 8096#31809

When my Bible College theology professor said that the Rapture was invented by Larry Norman, I said, "Excuse me: the Bible didn't do a bad job" :angel:


Must go


Ian :-D

 

[BenJasher]

Ben, if you ever clicked my profile, you'd know I'm the interdenominational evangelical Bible College grad son of an interdenominational evangelical Bible College grad & have sung/played/acted etc in churches of many labels, as well as been on forums like this for years & been President of a college CU, so I'm used to 'the ministry of reconciliation'

Did I say something to anger you? Why are you screaming at me?

I looked at your profile. I didn't find any reference to any of what you said here. And what would that have to do with this discussion? And what is a college CU (Christian Universalism?) If you are a Futurist/Rapturian Universalist, there just ain't many of you around. Very few Universalists are Futurist or Rapturian. But then again, there are very few Universalists.

Most of what you said didn't make much sense to me. You were probably writing in a hurry and unable to clarify your thoughts. But you said one thing that needs to be clarified:

Both Ezekiel 36 & Jeremiah 31 say, several times, that God would both scatter Jews worldwide & regather them from worldwide.

By way of clarification, "the Jews" were never mentioned. It was Israel that was spoken of. "Jews" is actually a bad word if you took a look at it. And it isn't anti-semitic hatred that causes me to say that either. So if you were going to bark up that tree, don't.

And if 1948 is the "year of the fig tree", then why is it that there are more Jews in the city of New York than in the whole land of Israel? Why have they not flocked back to their ancient homeland and forced the infidels and intruders out? (They don't want it. That's why.) What you think is a fulfillment of prophecy, isn't.

But on your non-futurist reasoning, Isaiah can't be weritten even yet, as it ends - Isaiah 65-66, speaking of the new Heavens & New Earth (& the destruction of this present Earth, as does Revelation 21)

I don't see how you could get that. You lost me on that one. Being an Historicist (the actual term for my beliefs) doesn't bring anyone to any such reasoning. Are you just being foolish to make a point?

Here is something you probably aren't aware of: The definition of a Futurist is one who interprets Matthew 24 ( and therefore Mark 13 and Luke 21) as having to do with the Second Coming of Christ and forecasts it into the future, to be fulfilled at a later date. (For the sake of clarification; The Second Coming here is His literal physical return to rule the earth from an earthly throne.)

The Historicist interpretation is that Matthew 24 (et al) does not predict the Second Coming, but rather the destruction of Jerusalem. An Historicist does not deny that there will be some series of terrible events to close out the age we now live in. But you have to look elsewhere to find reference to them.

A Full or Radical Preterist, on the other hand, will tell you that everything prophesied in the Bible came to pass by 70 A.D. There are Partial Preterists that take a view toward eschatology that more closely resembles the Historicist.

But those passages of scripture don't mention the earth being destroyed. It talks about an old order of things being done away with and the earth being renewed. It calls them the New Heavens and the New Earth. But this planet isn't going to be done away with for a long time to come.

YOU try going around with both your eyes open Ian. I have to use only one eye at a time to keep from being distracted and walking into oncoming traffic :crazyeyes: One eye at a time works just fine for me. I had to wear an eye patch as a kid. Ya wanna make fun of that too? :

 

[Vic C.]

Ben said:

You impress me deeply Vic. Am I to take it that you understand what you just said?

Of course! Premil thinking. Those verses tell me Jesus has already returned before the restoration. 8-) Not important at this time.

Former and latter day rains... not a big fan of this doctrine as it is understood today. It lacks any historical perspective and places too much emphesis on the ekklesia. Both Peter and Joel were speaking to a specific "group" of people. Former and later day rains meant something to the Hebrews of Joel's time. Anyone care to take a stab at this?

 

[BenJasher]

Former and latter day rains... not a big fan of this doctrine as it is understood today. It lacks any historical perspective and places too much emphesis on the ekklesia. Both Peter and Joel were speaking to a specific "group" of people. Former and later day rains meant something to the Hebrews of Joel's time. Anyone care to take a stab at this?

Yeah well Peter and Joel weren't the only ones to speak of the former and latter rains. Hoseah did as well, and his words was where I actually got the inference that the outpouring would take place in two waves. Joel actually supports the idea. What do you think all that agricultural symbolism was leading up to his prophecy in 2:28-32?

What did it mean to the Hebrews? It meant everything if they wanted a harvest. The former rain (or Fall rain) got the crops started and allowed them to survive through the summer. The latter rain (or the spring rain) came toward the end of the growing season and allowed the crops continue ripening til harvest time.

There are three Hebrew words used for the different rainy seasons of Palestine. The Yoreh for the former or early rain, the Melqosh as the latter rain and the Geshem or the winter rain. The times of early rain are for growth and the latter rain for maturation of the harvest. The seasons of planting and harvest in Israel are the reverse of ours here in America. The early rains should fall in late October or November, and the latter rains about late March and Early April. April to November is the dry season.

So, what this all meant to the Hebrews was that if they missed one or both of these rains (or rainy seasons) they had a crop failure. There was famine in the land, and people would die of starvation. It was vital to their economy to get these rains in their seasons.

Just the same it is vital in the economy of God that these rains come in their due season.

I don't see how you would get the idea that it places any undue emphasis on the "called out ones." And in this instance, we can show that just because Peter was speaking to a specific group of people didn't make his words exclusive to that group of people.

I am going to do some looking around on what is being taught about this these days. I know there was a move of the Holy Spirit in the late 40's that was known as the Latter Rain Outpouring. It started a whole movement called Latter Rain. I know some Latter Rain people. Good folks.
I have never paid much attention to what others have said about it. I heard a reference to it once, did my own research, and drew my own conclusions. I am curious to see what is being said about it.

 

[Vic C.]

So, what this all meant to the Hebrews was that if they missed one or both of these rains (or rainy seasons) they had a crop failure. There was famine in the land, and people would die of starvation. It was vital to their economy to get these rains in their seasons.

Just the same it is vital in the economy of God that these rains come in their due season.

Absolutely! But it meant much more that failed crops, especially when looked at prophetically.

Former rain, in the springtime, helped produced the grain (wheat) crops. Later rain, in the fall, helped the production of fruit crops.

Prophetically, the former rain, Jesus' ministry and up to Acts 2, was about the first Jews brought to salvation. The latter rain will be when the remnant of Israel will be brought to salvation. Spiritual harvest periods for Jews, so to speak. Zechariah writes about this latter rain:

Zech 12:9-11
9 ¶ And it shall be in that day, I will seek to destroy all the nations that come against Jerusalem.
10 And I will pour on the house of David, and on those living in Jerusalem, the Spirit of grace and of prayers. And they shall look on Me whom they have pierced; and they shall mourn for Him, as one mourns for an only son, and they shall be bitter over Him, like the bitterness over the first-born.
11 In that day the mourning in Jerusalem shall be great, like the mourning of Hadad-rimmon in the valley of Megiddo. (litv)

Paul adds a little to this:

Romans 11:23-27
23 And those also, if they do not continue in unbelief, will be grafted in. For God is able to graft them in again.
24 For if you were cut out of the natural wild olive tree, and against nature were grafted into a good olive tree, how much more these being according to nature will be grafted into their own olive tree?
25 For I do not want you to be ignorant of this mystery, brothers, so that you may not be wise within yourselves, that hardness in part has happened to Israel until the fullness of the nations comes in;
26 and so all Israel will be saved, even as it has been written, "The Deliverer will come out of Zion, and He will turn away ungodliness from Jacob.
27 And this is My covenant with them, when I take away their sins." Isaiah 59:20-21 (litv)

I don't see how you would get the idea that it places any undue emphasis on the "called out ones." And in this instance, we can show that just because Peter was speaking to a specific group of people didn't make his words exclusive to that group of people.

Simply because latter day rain is not for us, it's for them.

I am going to do some looking around on what is being taught about this these days. I know there was a move of the Holy Spirit in the late 40's that was known as the Latter Rain Outpouring. It started a whole movement called Latter Rain. I know some Latter Rain people. Good folks.
I have never paid much attention to what others have said about it. I heard a reference to it once, did my own research, and drew my own conclusions. I am curious to see what is being said about it.

LOL, you already quoted from one of the sites that promote this movement. I shouldn't have to tell you that all is needed is to study any former and later day rain scripture and come to whatever conclusion you are led to, Ben. I simply do not believe it is for the ekklesia.

Let Us Reason does a reasonable job at explaining it better that I.
http://www.letusreason.org/Latrain2.htm

They have a whole page of links; I am about to check some out.
http://www.letusreason.org/Latradir.htm