The rapture of the Church

[MrVersatile48]

Hi Lyle!

I'll reply in bold to each point on this here cyber chat show, y'all.. :fadein:

Yea, I clicked one link,

How many other readers have tried the links on pages 19-20? 8-)

and read about one sentence that led to yet another link.

In 20 pages of this megathread, related topics came up that deserve their own threads for folk who wanna go deeper into them :

That is why I said, "do you ever write?"

The ex-salesman in me can't resist again linking my lyrics (p.19)

http://www.christianforums.net/viewtopi ... &start=270

Maybe you just hate to type?

Having had 20+ years self-employed, I've done a lot of time & motion studies - yahoo it

http://www.christianforums.net/viewtopi ... 410#320410

Coop

Ponder the Parables - yahoo it

http://www.christianforums.net/viewtopi ... 259#320259

Jesus was quite happy to let folk choose to go deeper, dip their toe in the shallows or even scratch their heads for hours, days, weeks, months, years, decades or a whole lifetime

Which are you, readers? :angel: :multi:

Before I forget, try this BBC poll:-

What's your experience of spying?

How have you been affected by the world of espionage? :o

http://www.christianforums.net/viewtopi ... 257#320257

Ian :-D

 

[MrVersatile48]

Another great Rapture picture is... 8-)

how fast a link click transports ya..

to another world.. :multi:

We have only 2 choices of eternal destiny..


Here are 2 choices of the same title - which way will YOU go, readers?

Links to best of...& why??

http://www.christianforums.net/viewtopi ... highlight=


Links to best of...& why??

http://www.christianforums.net/viewtopi ... highlight=


Ian :-D

 

[MrVersatile48]

As many folk may well be in here for the first time in over a week, a quick refresher @ the OP question may serve to focus on the essentials

In Revelation 1-3, the church is on Earth

Revelation 4:1 is a great picture of the instant airlift Rapture rescue of all who love Jesus before we see the wrath of God begin to be poured out in Revelation 6

Revelation 6:8 forecasts 25% of mankind to die in war, famine, pestilence & by the wild beasts

Revelation 9:13-18 predict 33% of mankind die in war begun at R Euphrates

Revelation 16 & Joel 3 & Zechariah 14 are Armageddon - all waters poisoned, all vegetation burnt, sun scorching folk, etc

Revelation 21 prophesies New Heavens & New Earth as the old has past away - 2 Peter 3 says Earth is destroyed by fire, just as Genesis 6 flood destroyed all mankind except Noah's family, who entered the Ark of salvation

2 Peter 3

The Day of the Lord

1Dear friends, this is now my second letter to you. I have written both of them as reminders to stimulate you to wholesome thinking. 2I want you to recall the words spoken in the past by the holy prophets and the command given by our Lord and Savior through your apostles.

3First of all, you must understand that in the last days scoffers will come, scoffing and following their own evil desires. 4They will say, "Where is this 'coming' he promised? Ever since our fathers died, everything goes on as it has since the beginning of creation."

5But they deliberately forget that long ago by God's word the heavens existed and the earth was formed out of water and by water. 6By these waters also the world of that time was deluged and destroyed. 7By the same word the present heavens and earth are reserved for fire, being kept for the day of judgment and destruction of ungodly men.


Jesus said His return will be 'as in the days of Noah & Lot'

Both times, clear warnings were given about destruction to come & the one way of salvation was offered - Noah preached 40 years about the coming flood & invited everyone to come to safety before it's too late, & after Noah's family were safe, God closed the doors before the flood came

Both times, believers were removed to safety before destruction came

Can Ben & others now see why Jesus said, in Matt 24, that this climax generation of all history will be 'cut short, for the sake of the elect, otherwise no flesh would be left alive'?

Only the Rapture - described a few verses later - can be the how & why - as in 1 Corinthians 15:51-58 & 1 Thessalonians 4:13-5:11

Get real

& tell all you love, OK?

Must go

Ian

 

[lecoop]

Coop's comments inside quote for simplicity, in dark red.)

As many folk may well be in here for the first time in over a week, a quick refresher @ the OP question may serve to focus on the essentials

In Revelation 1-3, the church is on Earth

Agreed. We still are!

Revelation 4:1 is a great picture of the instant airlift Rapture rescue of all who love Jesus before we see the wrath of God begin to be poured out in Revelation 6

Wrong! Rev 4:1 is John being called up to heaven, to see "things which must be hereafter." If this is a picture of the church, then we will be called up to see "things which must be hereafter." To attempt to find the rapture in 4:1 is poor bible exegesis, and lots of imagination. John sees the raptured church in heaven, in chapter 7:

9 After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;

John saw them just after the 6th seal, giving us the impression that the rapture will take place at the 6th seal. Does this make sense? Of course it does, for when Jesus died, it is written, "the earth did shake, and the graves were open..." This shows us a precident for resurections and earthquakes to happen together.

Next, chapter 6 starts out the first seals, which were broken about 33 AD. They can in no way be in our future. Third, the wrath of God starts at the 7th seal, which starts the day of the Lord, and the 70th week of Daniel.


Revelation 6:8 forecasts 25% of mankind to die in war, famine, pestilence & by the wild beasts

Wrong! What this really says is that the red horse and rider, black horse and rider, and pale horse and rider, are limited in their travels to 1/4 of the earth's surface, or 1/4 of the land area of the earth: think the 1/4 that takes in the Mid East and Africa!

Revelation 9:13-18 predict 33% of mankind die in war begun at R Euphrates

Revelation 16 & Joel 3 & Zechariah 14 are Armageddon - all waters poisoned, all vegetation burnt, sun scorching folk, etc

Wrong! "Armageddon" cannot begin until Jesus returns. He does not return until Rev. chapter 19.

Revelation 21 prophesies New Heavens & New Earth as the old has past away - 2 Peter 3 says Earth is destroyed by fire, just as Genesis 6 flood destroyed all mankind except Noah's family, who entered the Ark of salvation

2 Peter 3

The Day of the Lord

1Dear friends, this is now my second letter to you. I have written both of them as reminders to stimulate you to wholesome thinking. 2I want you to recall the words spoken in the past by the holy prophets and the command given by our Lord and Savior through your apostles.

3First of all, you must understand that in the last days scoffers will come, scoffing and following their own evil desires. 4They will say, "Where is this 'coming' he promised? Ever since our fathers died, everything goes on as it has since the beginning of creation."

5But they deliberately forget that long ago by God's word the heavens existed and the earth was formed out of water and by water. 6By these waters also the world of that time was deluged and destroyed. 7By the same word the present heavens and earth are reserved for fire, being kept for the day of judgment and destruction of ungodly men.


Jesus said His return will be 'as in the days of Noah & Lot'

Both times, clear warnings were given about destruction to come & the one way of salvation was offered - Noah preached 40 years about the coming flood & invited everyone to come to safety before it's too late, & after Noah's family were safe, God closed the doors before the flood came

Both times, believers were removed to safety before destruction came

Can Ben & others now see why Jesus said, in Matt 24, that this climax generation of all history will be 'cut short, for the sake of the elect, otherwise no flesh would be left alive'?

Sorry, but it is not the "climax generation" that is cut short. Jesus clearly told us that it was the time of "great tribulation" that was shortened. The "beast" has been given 42 months of authority, but God will not allow the time of intense persecution to last the full 42 months.

Only the Rapture - described a few verses later - can be the how & why - as in 1 Corinthians 15:51-58 & 1 Thessalonians 4:13-5:11

Get real

& tell all you love, OK?

Must go

Ian

Back to "Prophecy 101!"

Coop

 

[bkhoward2001]

The Rapture

For those of you who hold out for the notion of pre-tribulation rapture, I am afraid you need to read scripture again. The children of God will not be raptured until the end of the final seven years. So get ready for a rocky ride. And prepare!

 

[lecoop]

Re: The Rapture

For those of you who hold out for the notion of pre-tribulation rapture, I am afraid you need to read scripture again.

...and again! John clearly shows us the raptured church, in heaven, before the 70th week even starts! (Rev. 7). I am "Looking for that blessed hope..." (Titus 2:13)

Coop

 

[MrVersatile48]

When I was last in here, there were several posts on page 20 :-?

As there is now only Lyle's 1...

have several...

where I linked to threads @ various related topics... :roll:

that have come up in this mega-thread been...

er...

RAPTURED?? :o

Is a demonically deceiving spirit..

an enemy of the gospel...

trying to stop unsaved folk being saved..

& then..

RAPTURED?? :robot: :bday: :fadein:

Here, again then, is...

'birthpains' & 'signs of the times'

http://www.christianforums.net/viewtopic.php?t=27480


Israel reborn: Psalms 17 & 48 etc etc

http://www.christianforums.net/viewtopic.php?t=27370


Holocaust: Psalms 39-45

http://www.christianforums.net/viewtopi ... 437#318437


Daniel's 70th Week & The Time of Jacob's Trouble: tHE gREAT tRIBULATION

http://www.christianforums.net/viewtopic.php?t=27458


Nanotechno & Revelation 13:15-18

http://www.christianforums.net/viewtopic.php?t=27379


Chips push thru the nano-barrier:-

http://www.news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/technology/6299147.stm

Nano circuit offers big promise:-

http://www.news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/sci/tech/4839088.stm


Brave New World/New World Order

http://www.christianforums.net/viewtopi ... 549#318549


covert surveillance & mass brainwashing

http://www.christianforums.net/viewtopi ... 174#322174


The Transhuman Future??

http://www.christianforums.net/viewtopi ... highlight=


BEFORE OUR EYES..

http://www.christianforums.net/viewtopi ... highlight=


Ian :-D

 

[RobertMazar]

As a Catholic I believe in the Rapture because the Bible states that Christ will return invisibly to snatch away all those who have received Him as their Savior. 8-)

 

[Vic C.]

As a Catholic I believe in the Rapture because the Bible states that Christ will return invisibly to snatch away all those who have received Him as their Savior. 8-)

You must be a rare breed of RC, because their basic position is Amillennialism. I honestly don't know many RCs who take a purely futuristic view on eschatology.

 

[n2thelight]

Quick questions

Why are you all(rapturist)so scared of the tribulation?

Why do you feel you will not be here when Christ clearly states that He was not returning until after the trib.?

Why do you not think God can pour out His wrath and not touch those who belong to Him?

Did He not keep His children safe during the plagues in Egypt?

Did He not protect Daniel from the lion?

Did He not keep the three Hebrew boys safe in the furnance?

No one was raptured,they were kept safe?

satan gains nothing by killing your flesh,thats not what he wants,he wants your soul with his in the lake of fire,and the only way he gets that is if you worship him willingly not by force,and it is with deception that he will accomplish this,not through terror.

As a matter of fact he won't be killing avybody during the trib,those doing the killing will be those who will be thinking they are doing God a service.

Believing in the rapture sets you up for the deception of satan claiming to be Christ.

Christ said he that endures till the end will be saved,not he that is raptured

 

[lecoop]

Coop's answers in dark red

Quick questions

Why are you all(rapturist)so scared of the tribulation?

I am not scared. Why are you seeking to be in it, when the bible tells us we won't be here?

Why do you feel you will not be here when Christ clearly states that He was not returning until after the trib.?

You see only His coming on the white horse. I see a coming where we meet Him in the clouds and in the air, about 7 years before the coming on the white horse.This revelation was given only to Paul. We will find nothing about it in the gospels, or anywhere else in the bible.

Why do you not think God can pour out His wrath and not touch those who belong to Him?

Of course God could, for "all things are possible," but that is not what He has chosen to do. He has chosen to save us out of His wrath.

Did He not keep His children safe during the plagues in Egypt?

This has nothing to do with the question. Is it called "Jacob's trouble" or is it called "Gentile's trouble?" It is "Daniel's" 70th week, or is it "Paul's" 70th week? (Paul was the apostle to the Gentiles.) One of the main purposes of the 70th week of Daniel is to bring the remnant of Israel to their knees - to the place where they know the ONLY way they will live is with devine intervention.

Dan 12:7b ...When the power of the holy people has been finally broken, all these things will be completed.

Did He not protect Daniel from the lion?

Non sequitur. See above.

Did He not keep the three Hebrew boys safe in the furnance?

Non sequitur. See above.

No one was raptured,they were kept safe?

Non sequitur. See above.

satan gains nothing by killing your flesh,thats not what he wants,he wants your soul with his in the lake of fire,and the only way he gets that is if you worship him willingly not by force,and it is with deception that he will accomplish this,not through terror.

May I refer you to the image that Nebuchadnezzar built, and forced people to worship, with the threat of death. Then may I refer you to the image that the beast will create, with the same threat: worship the image of die. Many will worship the image for fear, hunger, and tired of running and hiding, even though they KNOW they are sealing their own doom. Each will have heard the message of the first angel, Rev. 14.

As a matter of fact he won't be killing avybody during the trib,those doing the killing will be those who will be thinking they are doing God a service.

He, the beast, and the false prophet, will be behind all the killing, but Satan will be behind them.

Believing in the rapture sets you up for the deception of satan claiming to be Christ.

That is your fairyland view of Revelation. I won't be here, and neither will any of God's kids that are looking for His coming.What are you looking for?

Christ said he that endures till the end will be saved,not he that is raptured

Who was He speaking to?

May I suggest that you study Revelation until you understand John's chronology, without having to "rearrange" it? Most of John's book is about Daniel's (Jacob's) 70th week. Sorry, but this is not about the Gentile church. Therefore, John was not shown much about the Gentile church, since that was not God's subject matter. However, almost as a passing thought, God did show John the church, before the 70th week even starts.

You should be able to show the midpoint of the 70th week, the beginning of the week, and the end of the week, all "clearly marked" in John's book. Until you have this down, how could you possibly be able to show others whether or not the rapture is before, during or after the 70th week?

Finally, from one of my hermeneutics professors: "since God is a self revealing God, and has revealed Himself more and more over time, it is wise to first establish doctrine, on the lastest and most complete scripture on a subject, then fill in missing pieces on lessor scriptures." What did he mean? For end times doctrine, don't start with obscure Old Testament verses: start first with the book of Revelation, which is our most complete treatise of end time scriptures, and the latest revelation.

Coop

 

[n2thelight]

Coop

I am not scared. Why are you seeking to be in it, when the bible tells us we won't be here?

Because unless I die first Christ said that I would be,because His return is not until after the tribulation,and Paul als said that we will not gather back to Christ until after satan is revealed.

Matthew 24:3 "And as He sat upon the mount of Olives the disciples came unto Him privately, saying, "Tell us, when shall these things be and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?"

This was a question,which is the subject for the chapter,show me where in this chapter is there a rapture

Matthew 24:29 "Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not have her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:"

Matthew 24:30 "And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory."

Again this is after the Trib,Christ does not return before this happens

II Thessalonians 2:1 "Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,"

Whats the subject here?Is it not our gathering back to Christ?Ok,so lets see when this happens

II Thessalonians 2:3 "Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come [it will not be], except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;"

Again I ask,where irs the rapture?

Many rapturist say that the one taken and the one left is speaking of the rapture,although this is not true,because the one taken is taken by antichrist,but just to make a point,lets say that this is true,so the next question would be,when will this happen?

Matthew 24:40 "Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken and the other left."

The subject has not changed,and this is still after the tribulation..

Why do you think we need to have on the whole armour of God?Its not to fly away its to take a stand

Ephesians 6:11 "Put on the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to stand against the wiles of the devil."

The "wiles of the devil" refers to the lies, tricks, and deceitfulness he will use to bring down Christians. The "whole armour" is all the protection necessary to stand against those lies and deception. Your entire body has to be protected against Satan, or he will out wit you, and you will not stand.

The point is, that you put on the "whole armour", all of it, to stand against Satan, the Antichrist.

Ephesians 6:12 "For we wrestle not against flesh ad blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places."

Daniel 8:23 will give us a view of what this ruler of darkness is like. "And in the latter time of their kingdom, when the transgressors are come to the full, a king of fierce countenance, and understanding dark sentences, shall stand up."

This king in the "latter time" is Satan, the Antichrist; he is the "king of fierce countenance, and understanding dark sentences". In the Hebrew text it means that Satan is "skilled in dissimulation" of the truth of God's word. Satan knows all of God's word, and as such, he is the father of lies and deception. He will twist and turn the truth a little here and a little there, to make it an outright lie. Satan is the Antichrist on earth, and we must never forget it.

Daniel 8:24 "And his power shall be mighty, but not by his own power; and he shall destroy wonderfully, and shall prosper, and practice, and shall destroy the mighty and the holy People."

He will take away so much of Christianity, and cause so much deception through false doctrines [such as the rapture doctrine] that all those without their full [whole] armor on, will be deceived. He comes "in" [to this earth] with the promise of peace and prosperity; with false hopes and a promise to fulfill your every wish, if you will but follow him.

Daniel 8:25 "And through his policy also he shall cause craft to prosper in his hand; and he shall magnify himself in his heart, and by peace shall destroy many: he shall also stand up against the Prince of princes; but he shall be broken without hand."

Satan's "policy" is the way he fights, which is his method of operation. The "craft to prosper in his hand", refers to his ability that God will give him to do many miracles and wonders. Revelation 13 tells us how he will use this deceit to trick the whole world, except for God's elect, those with the seal of God {knowledge} in their minds.

"He shall magnify himself in his heart", is covered in II Thessalonians 2:4; "Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the Temple of God, shewing [calling] himself that he is God." This is the "Abomination of desolation [by the desolator]" spoken of in Daniel 9:27, and by Jesus in Matthew 24:15.

"By peace" is Satan's secret weapon, for peace is the most powerful weapon used against God's people in this final generation. It is dismantling the mind of the Christian church and disarming our nation today. In the end Satan will be "broken without hand", because it will be by the tow edged sword which comes from the mouth of Jesus Christ. The same sword that spoke and worlds were formed, and the stars were put in their places. However, we must not underestimate Satan's power to deceive, and his miracles, and cries for peace, peace, peace.

You see only His coming on the white horse. I see a coming where we meet Him in the clouds and in the air, about 7 years before the coming on the white horse.This revelation was given only to Paul. We will find nothing about it in the gospels, or anywhere else in the bible.

Paul said that this is our gathering back to Christ,and as stated above,this will not happen until after satan is revealed.
Christ only returns once more not twice,as rapturist believe,and when He returns it will be no secret

This has nothing to do with the question. Is it called "Jacob's trouble" or is it called "Gentile's trouble?" It is "Daniel's" 70th week, or is it "Paul's" 70th week? (Paul was the apostle to the Gentiles.) One of the main purposes of the 70th week of Daniel is to bring the remnant of Israel to their knees - to the place where they know the ONLY way they will live is with devine intervention.

Why do you all insist on seperating the Jews like they are some special people,when they are not,heck they don't even believe that Christ was God's Son,until you understand true Irsael you won't get it,and it has nothing to do with the Jews,for God said He was not a respecter of persons

Acts 10:34 "Then Peter opened his mouth, and said, "Of a truth I perceive that God is no respector of persons:"

If you understand this chapter,you should see the point,if not you will keep on thinking that Jews are special

Daniel's 70th week has nothing to do with some so called remnant

Daniel 12:7" And I heard the man clothed in linen, which was upon the waters of the river, when he held up his right hand and his left hand unto heaven, that it shall be for a time, times, and an half; and when he shall have accomplished to scatter the power of the holy people, all these things shall be finished."

A supernatural, divine being is responding to Daniel's question as to the period of time God will allow Satan to deceive the world. The angel of God gave the time of three and one-half years to allow the Antichrist to scatter the church on earth.

Why will they be scatters? Because they are not mentally prepared. Most are Biblically illiterate and they have no desire to even try to understand. Figuratively speaking, they're like adults still sucking the bottle, and being diapered. Totally unnourished and untrained in the true meaning of God's word. God will allow this time to separate his elect from those just playing the game of church.

Also Christ said that those days would be shorted,do you know how long they have been shortened to?

Matthew 24:22 "And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened."

He, the beast, and the false prophet, will be behind all the killing, but Satan will be behind them.

Do you understand the two beasts?

That is your fairyland view of Revelation. I won't be here, and neither will any of God's kids that are looking for His coming.What are you looking for?

So if you won't be here why do you even need to read the book?

Who was He speaking to?

His followers

May I suggest that you study Revelation until you understand John's chronology, without having to "rearrange" it? Most of John's book is about Daniel's (Jacob's) 70th week. Sorry, but this is not about the Gentile church. Therefore, John was not shown much about the Gentile church, since that was not God's subject matter. However, almost as a passing thought, God did show John the church, before the 70th week even starts.

Until you stop seperating the Jews from the Gentiles you won't get it

You should be able to show the midpoint of the 70th week, the beginning of the week, and the end of the week, all "clearly marked" in John's book. Until you have this down, how could you possibly be able to show others whether or not the rapture is before, during or after the 70th week?

Daniel 12:11 "And from the time that the daily sacrifices shall be taken away, and the abomination that maketh desolate set up, There shall be a thousand two hundred and ninety days."

The three and one-half years in days are God's time of testing. This would total seven (7) years to complete Daniel's 70 weeks of years. We know this to be shortened.

Daniel 12:12 "Blessed is he that waiteth, and cometh to the thousand three hundred and five and thirty days."

"He that waiteth" are those persons that understand that our Lord Jesus Christ will not come prior to His appointed time, and His entire Word points to the fact that the Antichrist will have his time of deception first. For the fifth trumpet sounds the coming of the Antichrist, Satan, and all the fallen angels; and God Himself has given to Satan the authority to use his deception to deceive the entire world. Don't be taken out of season, and learn to wait, with patience, observing the signs of our times. Putting you hope in the demonic doctrine, such as the "rapture theory", will cause you to be taken by the wrong Christ.

Finally, from one of my hermeneutics professors: "since God is a self revealing God, and has revealed Himself more and more over time, it is wise to first establish doctrine, on the lastest and most complete scripture on a subject, then fill in missing pieces on lessor scriptures." What did he mean? For end times doctrine, don't start with obscure Old Testament verses: start first with the book of Revelation, which is our most complete treatise of end time scriptures, and the latest revelation.

I don't consider Old testament scripture to be obscure,for Christ quoted the old testament many times.

And if you don't understand the beginning,you won't understand the end

 

[lecoop]

Onelove said

Matthew 24:3 "And as He sat upon the mount of Olives the disciples came unto Him privately, saying, "Tell us, when shall these things be and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?"

This was a question,which is the subject for the chapter,show me where in this chapter is there a rapture

Sorry, but at this point in time, the Gentile church was pretty much of a mystery. Jesus was telling Jewish men about the end of the Jewish age - i.e. Daniel's 70th week, and His second coming, after that week. so no rapture shown here.

Coop

 

[lecoop]

Onelove said

II Thessalonians 2:1 "Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,"

Whats the subject here?Is it not our gathering back to Christ?Ok,so lets see when this happens

II Thessalonians 2:3 "Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come [it will not be], except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;"

Again I ask,where irs the rapture?

First, this is a poor verse to use for doctrine, for we do not even have agreement among the Greek texts this verse is translated from. But, that being said, what was Paul's intended meaning? Why did you skip the 2nd verse? Why is it that all that are against a pretrib belief skips this verse? Is this honest, and will this get you to the truth? Paul is NOT SAYING that the man of sin will be revealed before the gathering together. But that is what it looks like, when you skip a verse.

What was these people all upset about? If they believed that the day of the Lord would come first, and then their rapture, they were moving right alone as predicted, and so no reason to get upset. They seemed to be in the day of the Lord, due to servere persecution. However, if they had previously been taught by Paul that the rapture would come before the Day of the Lord, then indeed, they would be upset if they were told that they were already IN the day of the Lord! That would mean that they had missed the rapture, or that Paul was mistaken.

Paul settles them down by telling them that the day of the Lord cannot come, until the man of sin is first revealed. And of course we know that, because he will be the one to sign a 7 year peace treaty. Therefore, they could be settled and at ease, because they knew that event had not yet happened - therefore, the day of the Lord had not previously started, and they were not then, IN the day of the Lord.

Did you notice verse 6, "now you know who restrains...."

Why would they "now know?" Because Paul had just told them! Paul said that the one restraining would be "taken out" of the way. So back up and find something "taken out." It is right there, in verse 3, only you will have to dig.

Coop

 

[lecoop]

Onelove said

Many rapturist say that the one taken and the one left is speaking of the rapture,although this is not true,because the one taken is taken by antichrist,but just to make a point,lets say that this is true,so the next question would be,when will this happen?

Matthew 24:40 "Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken and the other left."

The subject has not changed,and this is still after the tribulation..

Anyone who belives these "one taken" verses apply to the rapture need to go back to "prophecy 101." Luke tells us where they are taken. Their spirit is taken, and their body is left as bird feed. This is NOT the rapture.

What is it? In context, it is after the 70th week is finished, and time for the second coming. Neither is it the antichrist that "takes" them, for he does not have the power to just take the spirits. These verses are describing the parable of the tares. It is the angels that do the taking, and those taken are thrown into the "oven." So again, no rapture here. And again, why should we expect Jesus to be speaking of the rapture? The context is the 70th week of Daniel, not the 70th week of the Gentile church.

Coop

 

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Onelove said,

Why do you think we need to have on the whole armour of God?Its not to fly away its to take a stand

Ephesians 6:11 "Put on the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to stand against the wiles of the devil."

The "wiles of the devil" refers to the lies, tricks, and deceitfulness he will use to bring down Christians. The "whole armour" is all the protection necessary to stand against those lies and deception. Your entire body has to be protected against Satan, or he will out wit you, and you will not stand.

The point is, that you put on the "whole armour", all of it, to stand against Satan, the Antichrist.

Sorry, but you are stretching here. We need the armor on TODAY! We won't be here to even see the antichrist.

Coop

 

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Onelove said,

Daniel 8:23 will give us a view of what this ruler of darkness is like. "And in the latter time of their kingdom, when the transgressors are come to the full, a king of fierce countenance, and understanding dark sentences, shall stand up."

This king in the "latter time" is Satan, the Antichrist; he is the "king of fierce countenance, and understanding dark sentences". In the Hebrew text it means that Satan is "skilled in dissimulation" of the truth of God's word. Satan knows all of God's word, and as such, he is the father of lies and deception. He will twist and turn the truth a little here and a little there, to make it an outright lie. Satan is the Antichrist on earth, and we must never forget it.

Daniel 8:24 "And his power shall be mighty, but not by his own power; and he shall destroy wonderfully, and shall prosper, and practice, and shall destroy the mighty and the holy People."

He will take away so much of Christianity, and cause so much deception through false doctrines [such as the rapture doctrine] that all those without their full [whole] armor on, will be deceived. He comes "in" [to this earth] with the promise of peace and prosperity; with false hopes and a promise to fulfill your every wish, if you will but follow him.

Daniel 8:25 "And through his policy also he shall cause craft to prosper in his hand; and he shall magnify himself in his heart, and by peace shall destroy many: he shall also stand up against the Prince of princes; but he shall be broken without hand."

Satan's "policy" is the way he fights, which is his method of operation. The "craft to prosper in his hand", refers to his ability that God will give him to do many miracles and wonders. Revelation 13 tells us how he will use this deceit to trick the whole world, except for God's elect, those with the seal of God {knowledge} in their minds.

My friend, you are totally missing the context!

20 The ram which thou sawest having two horns are the kings of Media and Persia.
21 And the rough goat is the king of Grecia: and the great horn that is between his eyes is the first king.
22 Now that being broken, whereas four stood up for it, four kingdoms shall stand up out of the nation, but not in his power.
23 And in the latter time of their kingdom, when the transgressors are come to the full, a king of fierce countenance, and understanding dark sentences, shall stand up.

Who is the king of Greecia? Of course, it is Alexander the Great. This is speaking of a king during the latter part of the Greecian Empire. Daniel is writing of Antiochus Epiphanes. These verses are all about him, not the antichrist beast of Rev. 13. However, Antiochus was a type of the beast.

Coop

 

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ONelove said,

Paul said that this is our gathering back to Christ,and as stated above,this will not happen until after satan is revealed.
Christ only returns once more not twice,as rapturist believe,and when He returns it will be no secret

You are mistaken about what Paul said, and mistaken about how many times Jesus will come. Do you read about horses in the "caught up together in the air" verses? No, for that event will be 7 years before the white horses.

Please, go back to Revelation, and first, find the midpoint of the week. Then find the beginning and the end. Only then will you be able to prove the timing of the rapture.

Coop

 

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Onelove said,

Why do you all insist on seperating the Jews like they are some special people,when they are not,heck they don't even believe that Christ was God's Son,until you understand true Irsael you won't get it,and it has nothing to do with the Jews,for God said He was not a respecter of persons

Acts 10:34 "Then Peter opened his mouth, and said, "Of a truth I perceive that God is no respector of persons:"

If you understand this chapter,you should see the point,if not you will keep on thinking that Jews are special

Daniel's 70th week has nothing to do with some so called remnant

Wow! You simply amaze me! Did you not read?

Zechariah 13
6And one shall say unto him, What are these wounds in thine hands? Then he shall answer, Those with which I was wounded in the house of my friends.
7Awake, O sword, against my shepherd, and against the man that is my fellow, saith the LORD of hosts: smite the shepherd, and the sheep shall be scattered: and I will turn mine hand upon the little ones.
8And it shall come to pass, that in all the land, saith the LORD, two parts therein shall be cut off and die; but the third shall be left therein.
9And I will bring the third part through the fire, and will refine them as silver is refined, and will try them as gold is tried: they shall call on my name, and I will hear them: I will say, It is my people: and they shall say, The LORD is my God.


Do you think this is speaking of the church? No, it is speaking of the remnant of the sons of Jacob: hense, "Jacob's 70th week." Open your eyes and read: God is not through with Israel! Again, why God call this time, "Jacob's trouble?" Why do we call it "Daniel's 70th week?" God did not give that revelation to Paul either: no - it was given to Daniel, a Hebrew! Much of the book of Revelation is about Israel, NOT about the church. Chapters 7 throught 16 are about the 70th week of Daniel.

Coop

 

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Onelove said

Daniel 12:7" And I heard the man clothed in linen, which was upon the waters of the river, when he held up his right hand and his left hand unto heaven, that it shall be for a time, times, and an half; and when he shall have accomplished to scatter the power of the holy people, all these things shall be finished."

A supernatural, divine being is responding to Daniel's question as to the period of time God will allow Satan to deceive the world. The angel of God gave the time of three and one-half years to allow the Antichrist to scatter the church on earth.

My amazement grows with each paragraph you write! Now let me get this straight - for I don't want to accuse you falsely: You are saying that a prophecy given in Daniel, written about 500 BC or so was written about the Gentile church, which would not appear for another 550 or so years?

What meaning then, did it have for the Jews to whom it was first written?

Again, you amaze me!

Coop