The rapture of the Church

[lecoop]

ONelove wrote

Quote: coop
[quote:0ac7b]That is your fairyland view of Revelation. I won't be here, and neither will any of God's kids that are looking for His coming.What are you looking for?

So if you won't be here why do you even need to read the book? [/quote:0ac7b]


Someone has to challenge these posts, so that readers can learn truth. At this time, I am fairly sure you are not interested - for it seems you have your mind pretty well made up. I hope I am wrong here.

Coop

 

[lecoop]

Onelove said,
Quote: coop

[quote:87a50]Finally, from one of my hermeneutics professors: "since God is a self revealing God, and has revealed Himself more and more over time, it is wise to first establish doctrine, on the lastest and most complete scripture on a subject, then fill in missing pieces on lessor scriptures." What did he mean? For end times doctrine, don't start with obscure Old Testament verses: start first with the book of Revelation, which is our most complete treatise of end time scriptures, and the latest revelation.

I don't consider Old testament scripture to be obscure,for Christ quoted the old testament many times.

And if you don't understand the beginning,you won't understand the end[/quote:87a50]

And this is why you will be confused the next time we meet. You did not understand or accept this wisdom. Revelation is the most complete revelation we have on the end times. Start learning doctrine there first, and you will be on the right track. Trying to establish doctrine first in Daniel, and you will undoubtedly be wrong.

For example, if God changed the 7 years, two each periods of 1260 days or 42 months each, then He would be a liar: hardly likely for God! But then, you don't know what Jesus meant by shortening the time. It is NOT the 1260 days that are shortened. It is not any given timeframe that is shortened. What is shortened is the time that the Beast can effectively hunt down and put to death, those that refuse his mark. This has little to do with the 42 months. He will get his 42 months of authority, just as God has written. Why? God has elevated His word even about His great name!" If it is written, and it is, then it shall come to pass. His 42 months of authority is written. It will be 42 months.

Why don't you study Revelation, and find out HOW God shortens these days of intense persecution.

Coop

 

[n2thelight]

Coop

Sorry, but at this point in time, the Gentile church was pretty much of a mystery. Jesus was telling Jewish men about the end of the Jewish age - i.e. Daniel's 70th week, and His second coming, after that week. so no rapture shown here

Why do you insist on seperating Jews and Gentiles,to let you tell it most of the Bible was only written to the Jews.
What on earth is a Jewish age anyway?
The 12 tribes of Israel were not all Jews.Only those of Judah, Benjamin and Levi were considered to be “Jewish.†The remaining tribes were known as Ephraimites. A Jew could be part of Israel and not be an Ephraimite; an Ephraimite could be part of Israel and not be a Judahite.

No rapture is shown there because there will not be one,Christ second coming is just that,His second coming,if there was such thing a rapture this would be Christ third coming,and simply put,that is just not scriptual.

Why is it that all that are against a pretrib belief skips this verse? Is this honest, and will this get you to the truth? Paul is NOT SAYING that the man of sin will be revealed before the gathering together. But that is what it looks like, when you skip a verse.

I have no problems with verse 2,so lets take a look

II Thessalonians 2:2 "That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand."

Paul is saying, don't let anyone trouble you [confuse you], and tell you that the "day of Christ" is at hand. The "day of Christ [the Lord]" is the day when Jesus Christ will return to earth, and gather His saints to Him. This gathering will happen at the sounding of the seventh trumpet.

Paul is NOT SAYING that the man of sin will be revealed before the gathering together. But that is what it looks like, when you skip a verse.

Thats exactly what Paul is saying,that Day is the Day of the Lord.

What is it? In context, it is after the 70th week is finished, and time for the second coming. Neither is it the antichrist that "takes" them, for he does not have the power to just take the spirits. These verses are describing the parable of the tares. It is the angels that do the taking, and those taken are thrown into the "oven." So again, no rapture here. And again, why should we expect Jesus to be speaking of the rapture? The context is the 70th week of Daniel, not the 70th week of the Gentile church.

Again until you stop seperting the Church and Israel you won't get it.

And should we expect Jesus to be speaking of a rapture?For the simple fact that He just told us everything that must happen before His return,and if there was some kind of rapture He would had told us.

Sorry, but you are stretching here. We need the armor on TODAY! We won't be here to even see the antichrist.

Yes we do need the armour on today,but we will need it even more when satan is here on earth,and we will be here.

Do you think this is speaking of the church? No, it is speaking of the remnant of the sons of Jacob: hense, "Jacob's 70th week." Open your eyes and read: God is not through with Israel! Again, why God call this time, "Jacob's trouble?" Why do we call it "Daniel's 70th week?" God did not give that revelation to Paul either: no - it was given to Daniel, a Hebrew! Much of the book of Revelation is about Israel, NOT about the church. Chapters 7 throught 16 are about the 70th week of Daniel.

Think I answered this above,But if you think Israel consists of only Jews ,you are very mistaken

Lets take another look at who Israel is

First of all, when studying Biblical history and prophecy, you mustn't confuse the House of Israel with the House of Judah. When you see the 'House of Israel' written of in the scriptures, it refers to the Ten Northern Tribes of Israel (now referred to as the Ten Lost Tribes of Israel). But when you see the 'House of Judah' spoken of, it refers to the Southern Kingdom consisting of peoples of the Tribes of Judah and Benjamin.

Originally, when the Houses were still joined together, there were twelve Tribes. These Twelve Tribes became split into two Houses, one called the Northern Kingdom with it's Capitol at Samaria, and the other called the Southern Kingdom with it's Capitol at Jerusalem. To this very day they are split, with the Ten Northern tribes having lost all knowledge of their identity, as was prophesied of to happen in Scripture:

The Old Testament Prophets told that God would change the name of His people. They would be named after Him. And by the name "Christians" they were named after God. Jesus, which in the Hebrew language is: Yehoshua, which means: Yehovah’s (God’s) Savior, Salvation of Yehovah (God). And with Christ, His followers are called Christ men, hence: Christians.

So then, in the New Testament prophecies in the book of Revelation, Christians are Israel, God’s chosen, called by a new name (Isa 62:2 below), called by His name - Jesus Christ - Christ men - Christians.

Isa 62:2
2 And the Gentiles shall see thy righteousness, and all kings thy glory: and thou shalt be called by a new name, which the mouth of the LORD shall name. (KJV)

Isa 62:12
12 And they shall call them, The holy people, The redeemed of the LORD: and thou shalt be called, Sought out, A city not forsaken. (KJV)

Isa 65:15
15 And ye shall leave your name for a curse unto my chosen: for the Lord GOD shall slay thee, and call his servants by another name (KJV)

Jer 33:16
16 In those days shall Judah be saved, and Jerusalem shall dwell safely: and this is the name wherewith she shall be called, The LORD our righteousness. (KJV)

Acts 11:26
26 And when he had found him, he brought him unto Antioch. And it came to pass, that a whole year they assembled themselves with the church, and taught much people. And the disciples were called Christians first in Antioch. (KJV)

This should clear up Revelation chapter seven where the 144,000 "sealed of Israel" are mentioned, they are Christians who, since the Assyrian captivity and deportations of 611 B.C. were stripped of their name Israel! As it is written, because of idolatry, God caused Israel to not know who they are, and the rest of the world is also ignorant as to who true Israel is today:

Deut 32:26 (God speaking)
26 I said, I would scatter them [Israel] into corners [all corners of the world], I would make the remembrance of them to cease from among men (KJV)

They (Israel) are mentioned in the New Testament though, for example, the book of James is written to them, written to us: "James, a servant of God and of the Lord Jesus Christ, to the twelve tribes which are scattered abroad, greeting." {James 1:1}. And again: "Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, to the strangers scattered throughout Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia, Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied." {1 Pet 1:1-2}.
Again until you stop this seperating you won't get it

 

[lecoop]

Onelove is correct: I surely won't "get it" the way he gets it.

When I write "Israel" in the same sentence as "Jacob's trouble," I am refering to all the sons of Jacob, and their descendants. Today, many use the term "Jew" to define any descendant of any of the sons of Jacob.

Jew(j)
n.
1. An adherent of Judaism as a religion or culture.
2. A member of the widely dispersed people originally descended from the ancient Hebrews and sharing an ethnic heritage based on Judaism.
3. A native or inhabitant of the ancient kingdom of Judah.

http://www.thefreedictionary.com/Jew

Question: do you think Hitler cared which tribe a "Jew" came from?

For the readers: I want to bring something to your attention. Onelove insists on destroying the idea of dispensations, and the idea that coming up soon, God will remove the church and turn His attention once more to "Israel" (all the descendants of Jacob). Notice what he wrote here:

This should clear up Revelation chapter seven where the 144,000 "sealed of Israel" are mentioned, they are Christians...

Let's read what John said:

Rev 7
4 And I heard the number of them which were sealed: and there were sealed an hundred and forty and four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel.
5 Of the tribe of Juda were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Reuben were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Gad were sealed twelve thousand.
6 Of the tribe of Aser were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Nephthalim were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Manasses were sealed twelve thousand.
7 Of the tribe of Simeon were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Levi were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Issachar were sealed twelve thousand.
8 Of the tribe of Zabulon were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Joseph were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Benjamin were sealed twelve thousand.

If onelove considers himself as one of these 12 tribes, DNA testing will soon (if not now) be able to prove this. But notice what John tells us: these 144,000 all have the DNA of Jacob: they are all descendants of Jacob. Yet onelove would have us believe that this is refering to Christians. I will leave it up to the readers to decide.

Has God abandoned Israel (Jacob) forever?

Ezek 37
19 Say unto them, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I will take the stick of Joseph, which is in the hand of Ephraim, and the tribes of Israel his fellows, and will put them with him, even with the stick of Judah, and make them one stick, and they shall be one in mine hand.

God says that the day will come when Jacob will be "one" again. This has nothing to do with "christians:" it is referring to descendants of Jacob. But again, I will let the readers decide.

Coop

 

[Vic C.]

Coop... you'll get no argument from me. You know how I feel about replacement theology. 8-)

 

[n2thelight]

In order to satisfy the view of a Pre-Tribulation rapture it is necessary to seperate Israel and the Church (and therefore Jews and Christians) regardless of a common belief in Christ.

Galatians 3:28
There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.


First of all, God made His covenant with Israel, not with so-called Jews. The
Jews didn't come into being until approx 500 b.c. during (and after) the Babylonian captivity. God made His covenant with Israel well over a 1000 years before there was any such thing as a "Jew." Those today who call themselves "Jews" are impostors and are not of Israel. For a "Jew" is a religion, not a race.
The word "Jew" did not appear in any Bible until the 18th century. The modern day word “Jew†is the 18th century contracted and corrupted English word for the 4th century Latin “Iudaeus†found in St. Jerome’s Vulgate Edition.

Two best known 18th century editions of the New Testament in English are the Rheims (Douai) and the King James Version Bible (the A.V. or Authorized Version). The Rheims (Douai) translation of the New Testament was first printed in 1582 but the word “Jew†did not appear in it. The King James Authorized translation of the New Testament into English was begun in 1604 and first published in 1611. The word “Jew†did not appear in it either. The word “Jew†appeared in both these well known editions in their 18th century revised versions for the first times.

Herein lies the confusion that is exploited by the impostors. What are commonly referred to as "Jews" today are not the people that the Holy Spirit was speaking of in the Bible. In the Bible, the word "Jew" means Judean. But today (from the 1700's on) a 'certain' people adopted the title "Jew" and have moved right into the place of chosen Israel. In the Bible, the word “Jew†means anyone of the region of Judea, or, any of the house of Judah. One must take each Scripture by itself to determine which meaning is to be affixed.

However, today, the word “Jew†means a follower of Judaism, which is the corrupted religion of the Old Testament era Hebrews founded during the Babylonian captivity of approx. 500 b.c. It is not the religion of the Hebrews in the Old Testament handed down from God to Moses on the Mount, but rather, it is a Babylonian corruption of that religion founded not on the Old Testament Scriptures but rather upon the Babylonian Talmud (added writings, the oral TRADITIONS of the ancient Rabbis) and the Kabbalah (Jewish mysticism). These facts are not disputed by the Rabbis themselves

In the Bible you see the term "Jew" used quite a bit. But it isn't in the same sense that we today use the term "Jew." The Word Jew in the Bible can mean two different things: either a descendant of the tribe of Judah OR a person from the land of Judaea (the region in which Jerusalem resides, a 'county' or 'province' so to speak) but not necessarily of the tribe of Judah. it's like you can be an Irishman and live in Germany and yet not be a German. Don't let the different languages and the names in them confuse you on this. Observe:


Jew: Greek word #2453 Ioudaios (ee-oo-dah'-yos); from #2448 (in the sense of #2455 as a country); Judaean, i.e. belonging to Jehudah ["Judah" in Hebrew language of Old Testament] : KJV-- Jew (-ess), of Judaea.

Greek word #2448 Iouda (ee-oo-dah'); of Hebrew origin [Hebrew word #3063 or perhaps #3194]; Judah (i.e. Jehudah or Juttah), a part of (or place in) Palestine: KJV-- Judah.

Greek word #2455 Ioudas (ee-oo-das'); of Hebrew origin [Hebrew #3063]; Judas (i.e. Jehudah), the name of ten Israelites; also of the posterity of one of them and its region: KJV-- Juda (-h, -s); Jude.

Judaea: 1). In a narrower sense, to the southern portion of Palestine lying on this side of the Jordan and the Dead Sea, to distinguish it from Samaria, Galilee, Peraea, and Idumaea. 2). In a broader sense, referring to all Palestine.

So in the Bible when you see someone referred to as a "Jew" it could mean a 'good' one like those Jews whom believed upon Jesus Christ, OR, it could mean a 'bad' one like the Jews that sought to kill Jesus Christ:

Acts 2:5 (good)
5 And there were dwelling at Jerusalem Jews, devout men, out of every nation under heaven. (KJV)

John 7:1(bad)
1 After these things Jesus walked in Galilee: for he would not walk in Jewry, because the Jews sought to kill him. (KJV)

Just because you see someone called a "Jew" in the Bible does not necessarily mean that they are a devote chosen man of God, nor, necessarily an evil person with corrupt religion. You have to take each one in context of the Scripture, the Scripture will let you know which kind of 'Jew' is being spoken about. That is what "Jew" means in the Bible, but that has absolutely nothing to do with the so-called "Jews" of today.


"Strictly speaking, it is incorrect to call an ancient Israelite a "Jew." Or to call a contemporary Jew [an] "Israelite," or a "Hebrew." The first Hebrews may not have been Jews at all, and contemporary Palestinians, by their own definition of the term "Palestinian," have to include Jews among their own people."

--The Jewish Almanac, Oct., 1980, page 3, Bantam Books, Inc. Under a headline entitled... 'IdentityCrisis'

 

[sisterchristian]

That "rapture" being a valid biblical doctrine, or a figment of some wannabe theologian's imagination?

Well you can ask that question when your left here with all the rest of the skeptics. :

 

[n2thelight]

It is made very clear in the book of Revelation that there will be believers still on the Earth throughout the Great Tribulation. These are believers in the redeeming work of Jesus Christ on the cross and His resurrection from the dead. These believers are referred to as servants of our God (Revelation 7:3), saints (Revelation 13:7, Revelation 13:10, Revelation 14:12), the remnant (Revelation 12:17), and overcomers (Revelation 2:7, Revelation 2:11, Revelation 2:17, Revelation 2:26, Revelation 17:14, Revelation 21:7), yet for some reason in the Pre-trib view these faithful have missed the rapture and were "left behind" to endure the worst time ever experienced on Earth. How could that be?

 

[Vic C.]

yet for some reason in the Pre-trib view these faithful have missed the rapture and were "left behind" to endure the worst time ever experienced on Earth. How could that be?

Don't ask me... :smt102 I'm Pre Wrath. :-D

 

[sisterchristian]

Don't ask me... :smt102 I'm Pre Wrath. :-D

same here, I don't think that's correct what onelove posted, I think when it happens than those who didn't believe before will believe at this time, but they will have to endure til the end without getting the mark of the beast on them, than they will be saved.

 

[n2thelight]

The word church has a interesting background. It is commonly understood to have pagan roots [1][2] but that's not the concern here. What we're interested in is how this word was used prior to the New Testament. In order to help us in our quest we have been given a unique resource, a Greek translation of the Old Testament. The Septuagint (aka The LXX) was started in the 3rd century B.C. by a group of 72 scholars (hence the Latin and Roman associations with the number 70) and has been the basis for the translation of the OT into many languages [3]. The Septuagint is important here because it provides a direct bridge between the Greek of the New Testament and the Hebrew of the Old Testament.

The word translated as "church" in the New Testament is the word ekklesia (which is where we get the English word ecclesiastical). This word is formed from ek, meaning "out of" or "away from", and kaleo meaning "to call"; so it means literally the called out assembly [4]. If you wonder who's doing the calling the answer is simple, God. It is no mistake then that ekklesia is not only translated as "church" in the New Testament, but also as "assembly" and "congregation". This is where it gets interesting, ekklesia is used many times throughout the LXX to translate the Hebrew word qahal (or kahal). Remember that the LXX is using Greek to translate the Old Testament; the same Greek as used for the New Testament. What we end up with is an entire Bible in Greek. Qahal is translated into English as multitude, company, congregation and assembly [5]. Notice that two of the four definitions of qahal are identical to those of ekklesia. Consider the following passages, paying special attention to how the words multitude, company, congregation and assembly are used:


Genesis 48:4
And said unto me, Behold, I will make thee fruitful, and multiply thee, and I will make of thee a multitude of people; and will give this land to thy seed after thee for an everlasting possession.



Exodus 16:3
And the children of Israel said unto them, Would to God we had died by the hand of the LORD in the land of Egypt, when we sat by the flesh pots, and when we did eat bread to the full; for ye have brought us forth into this wilderness, to kill this whole assembly with hunger.



Numbers 14:5
Then Moses and Aaron fell on their faces before all the assembly of the congregation of the children of Israel.



Deuteronomy 31:30
And Moses spake in the ears of all the congregation of Israel the words of this song, until they were ended.



1 Samuel 17:47
And all this assembly shall know that the LORD saveth not with sword and spear: for the battle is the Lord's, and he will give you into our hands.



Job 30:28
I went mourning without the sun: I stood up, and I cried in the congregation.



Psalms 22:22
I will declare thy name unto my brethren: in the midst of the congregation will I praise thee.



Psalms 149:1
Praise ye the LORD. Sing unto the LORD a new song, and his praise in the congregation of saints.



Jeremiah 50:9
For, lo, I will raise and cause to come up against Babylon an assembly of great nations from the north country: and they shall set themselves in array against her; from thence she shall be taken: their arrows shall be as of a mighty expert man; none shall return in vain.


Remember, ekklesia is the same word that is translated as "church" in the New Testament. It is this same word that is used to translate the Hebrew word qahal, whose English translations are bold in the verses just provided. What we see is the same title given to believers from Genesis to Revelation. Above is only a small selection of passages from the Greek Old Testament known as the Septuagint. The Greek word is used many times over and often in direct relation to Israel. From beginning to end there is only one called-out assembly, they are known commonly as the church and to God as Israel.


Galatians 6:14-16
But God forbid that I should glory, save in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom the world is crucified unto me, and I unto the world.
For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision, but a new creature.
And as many as walk according to this rule, peace be on them, and mercy, and upon the Israel of God.

So what does all this mean? It's simple, there is only one body of believers (Romans 12:4). There is a single redemption for Christians, for Jews, and for all on the face of this earth, and His name is Jesus Christ. There is no room for division and there is no distinction by God among His people. God is not partial with men.


Acts 10:34-36
Then Peter opened his mouth, and said, Of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons:
But in every nation he that feareth him, and worketh righteousness, is accepted with him.
The word which God sent unto the children of Israel, preaching peace by Jesus Christ: (he is Lord of all

http://ridingthebeast.com/articles/old- ... nt-church/

Here is the definition of Church taken from the strongs,and again I say you cannot seperate the Church from Israel,as I said in previous post,the only reason to do so,is to support this false rapture doctrine


Lexicon Results for ekklēsia (Strong's G1577) Greek for G1577 ἐκκλησία Transliteration
ekklēsia
Pronunciation

ek-klā-sē'-ä (Key)

Part of Speech
feminine noun

Root Word (Etymology)

from a compound of G1537 and a derivative of G2564

TDNT Reference
3:501,394
Vines
View Entry


Outline of Biblical Usage 1) a gathering of citizens called out from their homes into some public place, an assembly

a) an assembly of the people convened at the public place of the council for the purpose of deliberating

b) the assembly of the Israelites

c) any gathering or throng of men assembled by chance, tumultuously

d) in a Christian sense

1) an assembly of Christians gathered for worship in a religious meeting

2) a company of Christian, or of those who, hoping for eternal salvation through Jesus Christ, observe their own religious rites, hold their own religious meetings, and manage their own affairs, according to regulations prescribed for the body for order's sake

3) those who anywhere, in a city, village, constitute such a company and are united into one body

4) the whole body of Christians scattered throughout the earth

5) the assembly of faithful Christians already dead and received into heaven

 

[n2thelight]

Now I think we can get back to the rapture

I recently read a transcript debate between Dr Thomas Ice and Richard Perry in Dr Ice was asked a question he did'nt quite answer and I would like the answer myself so I thought I would present it here,along with part of the transcript.

Richard Perry: “A question about the Seventy Weeks, at the end of Daniel’s Seventy Weeks, is that when the Kingdom is established, when Christ is restoring everything?â€Â

Dr. Thomas Ice: “Yes! And it is very Jewish and those six things I mentioned in Daniel 9:24 will all be completed by the end of the Seventy Weeks.â€Â

Richard Perry: “If that is so, I am struggling with the Pre Tribulation position. Acts 3:21 says that Jesus must remain in heaven until it is time for Him to restore everything. Which I see happening at the end of the Daniel’s Seventy Weeks. So, how does He get out of heaven before the tribulation period to Rapture the Church?â€Â

Dr. Thomas Ice: “Because in Acts chapter three as in Acts chapter two He is talking to the Jewish people. And He is saying that the times of refreshing or the Kingdom is not going to come until you Jewish people repent. That is what the tribulation period is all about.â€Â

Richard Perry: “Whether He is talking about the Jewish people or not, the Word says, that He must remain in heaven until it is time to restore everything.â€Â

Dr. Thomas Ice: “Right!â€Â

Richard Perry: “Then how does He come out of heaven into the air, if He must remain in heaven until after the tribulation?â€Â

Dr. Thomas Ice: “The New Testament comes and gives us the new revelation about the Rapture. Where Christ doesn’t come to the earth but He meets us in the cloud in the heavens and we return back with Him to the Father’s house. There are only two comings, when He came 2,000 years ago and the Second Coming when He returns with His raptured Church called His Bride to Terra Firma and He reigns for a thousand years. The rapture is said to be a mystery in 1 Corinthians 15 meaning a new revelation. Something that was always part of God’s plan just never revealed, why because the Church Age is a mystery, Ephesians chapter two and three....â€Â

Richard Perry: “So, you are interpreting the heavens in Acts 3:21 as not heaven where the Father and the Son are residing at the moment, but as both heavens as in terms of the heaven that means the air, meaning that Jesus hasn’t really left heaven if He is still in the air?â€Â

Dr. Thomas Ice: “Uh, I don’t know that you have to resolve something that precise. All I know is that the contexts of Acts chapter two and three is in relationship to the Jewish nation. When are these things going to happen for Israel? That the times of refreshing are going to come…. It is not dealing with the Church.â€Â

Richard Perry: “So, if I understand, Christ will come for the Church which is the “blessed hope†at the Rapture before the seven year tribulation period and then at the end of the seven-year period He will come to earth with the Church to judge the nations and the unbelieving world.

Dr. Thomas Ice: “Yes!â€Â

Richard Perry: “Then I have a hard time understanding what Paul is talking about in 2 Thessalonians first chapter where he says, those of you that are troubled I will provide relief, and it says, when He comes He will judge the unbelieving world with His angles in blazing fire which is clearly a pictur of His coming at the end of the tribulation period.â€Â

http://www.preteristarchive.com/Critica ... perry.html

So!How does Christ get out of Heaven?

 

[n2thelight]

sisterchristain

same here, I don't think that's correct what onelove posted, I think when it happens than those who didn't believe before will believe at this time, but they will have to endure til the end without getting the mark of the beast on them, than they will be saved.

Most rapturist say that the Holy Spirit will taken out,so can you please tell me how will these people be saved without the Holy Spirit or the Church being here?

Are they going to all of a sudden start reading the Biblemand if so how will they understand?

It is understandable that Christians might expect to escape the worst time ever experienced on the face of the earth, but the reality is that Christians have always suffered for their faith. Look to Sudan, China, Egypt, India, and other countries to see violent oppression, murder and outright hatred for Christians to this day. Look at the thousands of Christians persecuted by Nero in 70AD, look at the tens of thousands who were murdered and tortured during the various Inquistions, look at the Apostles, look at our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ!

So are we to believe that in a culture and era so morally degraded and numb to truth - yet so arrogant - that we somehow deserve to be swept away in a rapture prior to any suffering, refinement, and testing of our faith?! Come on folks, if you are sleeping it is time to wake out of your slumber! There is plenty of Scriptual evidence that shows we will go through the Great Tribulation or die trying. But if God be for us then who can be against us? (Romans 8:31). Nothing can seperate us from the love of God which is in Christ Jesus, surely not death or tribulation.


Romans 8:35-39
Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword?
As it is written, For thy sake we are killed all the day long; we are accounted as sheep for the slaughter.
Nay, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him that loved us.
For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come,
Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

 

[sisterchristian]

sisterchristain



Most rapturist say that the Holy Spirit will taken out,so can you please tell me how will these people be saved without the Holy Spirit or the Church being here?

Are they going to all of a sudden start reading the Biblemand if so how will they understand?

Exactly, They will not have the aid of the Holy Spirit and that is why it will be very hard to endure, but they will see that their saved Loved ones and friends are gone, and probably remember what they were told about this time, but didn't believe. But the Bible does mention that there will be people who do endure through this time of tribulation, either by being killed for not recieving the mark or endure all the way till the end. But their will be people who will get another chance to be saved, it just won't be easy for them.

 

[n2thelight]

sisterchristain

Exactly, They will not have the aid of the Holy Spirit and that is why it will be very hard to endure,

One cannot be saved apart from the Holy Spirit

 

[Vic C.]

sisterchristain

One cannot be saved apart from the Holy Spirit

SO true! :angel:

 

[sisterchristian]

But yet there will be those that endure during this tribulation period and will get to go to heaven... hmmm!

 

[lecoop]

SO true! :angel:

It is a myth that the Holy Spirit will leave when the church is taken out. What is taken out, is the anointing on the church. It is the anointing that breaks the yoke, and it is the anointing that holds back the revealing of the man of sin.

Of course, since that anointing is on us, when we are gone, so is the anointing. Of course the Holy Spirit that anointed us, will still be here to baptise new believers into Christ. He will still be here to anoint the new belivers, just as He anointed us.

Coop

 

[lecoop]

But yet there will be those that endure during this tribulation period and will get to go to heaven... hmmm!

If we are to believe what Jesus told Choo Thomas, and is backed up by scripture, many believers that love this world, will not even hear the trumpet, and will not be taken out. It is the pure in heart that will see God. In this case, it is the pure in heart that will hear the trumpet, and will rise to see and meet Him in the clouds.

Many, many nonbelievers will become believers immediately after the rapture, for they will suddenly become believers, when their loved ones have disappeared!

Coop

 

[Vic C.]

It is a myth that the Holy Spirit will leave when the church is taken out. What is taken out, is the anointing on the church. It is the anointing that breaks the yoke, and it is the anointing that holds back the revealing of the man of sin....

Coop

Whether it be the Ekklesia, the Arch Angel Michael, Jesus or God HIMSELF, I'm pretty certain it is not the HS, for reasons stated in this thread.