The rapture of the Church

[Vic C.]

If we are to believe what Jesus told Choo Thomas, and is backed up by scripture, many believers that love this world, will not even hear the trumpet, and will not be taken out. It is the pure in heart that will see God. In this case, it is the pure in heart that will hear the trumpet, and will rise to see and meet Him in the clouds.

Many, many nonbelievers will become believers immediately after the rapture, for they will suddenly become believers, when their loved ones have disappeared!

Coop

Honestly, I didn't read the link on this Thomas person, never heard of them, nor do I care about their "vision". Sorry to sound so crass. I'm just responding to other things being posted, based on my studies on eschatology and Scripture. 8-)

 

[lecoop]

Honestly, I didn't read the link on this Thomas person, never heard of them, nor do I care about their "vision". Sorry to sound so crass. I'm just responding to other things being posted, based on my studies on eschatology and Scripture. 8-)

What if all in the scriptures had the same response to God's prophets? Isn't there a scripture that fits this?

2 Chronicles 20:20
... Believe in the LORD your God, so shall ye be established; believe his prophets, so shall ye prosper.

Coop

 

[Vic C.]

I do believe HIS prophets. I just don't believe in modern day "prophets". 8-)

 

[Gabbylittleangel]

It is a myth that the Holy Spirit will leave when the church is taken out.
Coop

Lecoop,

We are the vessel of the Holy Spirit. When the container goes, the contents go too.

 

[Vic C.]

Lecoop,

We are the vessel of the Holy Spirit. When the container goes, the contents go too.

The HS can and does exist outside of our bodies. Like the Father, it is independent of us; it does need us to exist. It existed way before we were put here.

Remember, no box is big enough for God to fit in. ;-)

Genesis 1:2 And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.

Verse two... it doesn't get much more fundamental than that.

 

[lecoop]

I do believe HIS prophets. I just don't believe in modern day "prophets". 8-)

1 Corinthians 12:28
And God hath set some in the church, first apostles, secondarily prophets, thirdly teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, governments, diversities of tongues.

Coop

 

[lecoop]

Lecoop,

We are the vessel of the Holy Spirit. When the container goes, the contents go too.

Ha ha ha! I guess after the first person was "filled" with the Holy Spirit, He could then fill no other? How funny! The Holy Spirit is omnipresent! However, I was not speaking of the Holy Spirit within, but the Holy Spirit upon, and in being anointed:

Acts 1
8 But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you....

There is enough Holy Spirit to anoint every human on earth. And when the church leaves, He will still be here, baptizing more people into the body of Christ.

 

[Gabbylittleangel]

According to Scripture there is a harvest time. The wheat will be seperated from the tares. The sheep will be seperated from the goats. And at the end of the world, the wicked will be severed from among the just.



Mat 13:30 Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.

Mat 25:32-33 And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth [his] sheep from the goats: And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.

Mat 13:47-50 Again, the kingdom of heaven is like unto a net, that was cast into the sea, and gathered of every kind: Which, when it was full, they drew to shore, and sat down, and gathered the good into vessels, but cast the bad away. So shall it be at the end of the world: the angels shall come forth, and sever the wicked from among the just, And shall cast them into the furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.

 

[Vic C.]

I believe, in the context of the PreWrath position, that the Rapture and the sheep and goats judgement are two different events, with the rapture coming before the S & G judgement.

 

[Fnerb]

I believe, in the context of the PreWrath position, that the Rapture and the sheep and goats judgement are two different events, with the rapture coming before the S & G judgement.

And considering I am Amillennialist, and haven't done all that much study on escatology, I am going to sit back and read read read.

 

[Vic C.]

same here, I don't think that's correct what onelove posted, I think when it happens than those who didn't believe before will believe at this time, but they will have to endure til the end without getting the mark of the beast on them, than they will be saved.

Wow sister, you have an understanding of Pre Wrath? Have you read any of Van Kampen or Rosenthal? Are you familar with Rev. Charles Cooper, Gary Vaterlaus and this site? http://www.solagroup.org/ The position does haver a few kinks but before Van Kampen died, he encouraged his "students" to work thjings out for themselves, according to Scripture.

You are aware that the Pre Wrath position sees Michael as the Restrainer and not the HS. It is a very interesting concept based on a Bible interpretation by a well known and revered Jewish scholar from the 10th. or 11th. century. His name is Rashi.

 

[Vic C.]

And considering I am Amillennialist, and haven't done all that much study on escatology, I am going to sit back and read read read.

To back up what I said, try this:

http://www.solagroup.org/articles/faqs/faq_0015.html

 

[lecoop]

What is written about the sheep and goat judgement?

Matt 25:32 And before him shall be gathered all nations: [Ethnos: Ethnic groups]

Does this fit, "one taken and one left?" No, because at the judgement of the nations, every last human being will be "taken." Therefore, these two events cannot be the same thing.

What about the tares?

Mat 13
39 The enemy that sowed them is the devil; the harvest is the end of the world; and the reapers are the angels.
40 As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world.
41 The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity;
42 And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.

It is clear here that only some are "taken" and the rest are left. This is undoubtedly the "one taken and one left." Where does this take place?
In the context of Mat. 24, it is the day that Jesus returns on the white horse.

Neither of these describes the rapture of the church, which will be a harvest taken before God's wrath. These two harvests, the judgement of the nations and the wheat and tares, are during His wrath.

Coop

 

[n2thelight]

Richard Perry: “If that is so, I am struggling with the Pre Tribulation position. Acts 3:21 says that Jesus must remain in heaven until it is time for Him to restore everything. Which I see happening at the end of the Daniel’s Seventy Weeks. So, how does He get out of heaven before the tribulation period to Rapture the Church?â€Â


So!How does He get out

 

[n2thelight]

So should I believe that Matthew 24 is not written to the rapturist,but to those who will be left behind,and all of a sudden they will start to read their Bibles with understanding?And they will read the part that says endure till the end and you will be saved,come on now,really,you got to be kidding me.

And while Im on it,just what parts of the Bible is written to you all,since you all won't be here during the end time prophecies?

Dosent the mere fact that you all can't even agree on what is what as far as pre mid or post sound some kind of an alarm?

 

[n2thelight]

Can anyone list for me all scriptures pretaining to the rapture?

 

[lecoop]

So should I believe that Matthew 24 is not written to the rapturist,but to those who will be left behind,and all of a sudden they will start to read their Bibles with understanding?And they will read the part that says endure till the end and you will be saved,come on now,really,you got to be kidding me.

And while Im on it,just what parts of the Bible is written to you all,since you all won't be here during the end time prophecies?

Dosent the mere fact that you all can't even agree on what is what as far as pre mid or post sound some kind of an alarm?

I have had two pen pals from Israel, two young ladies since they were 15 years old. They are now both in the military. They told me something one day that shocked me. In school, they had courses on the NEW TESTAMENT!!!! (All Except Revelation.) I asked them again and again to make sure I understood correctly.

Yes, they know what is in the New Testament!

Of course, it is the epistiles, especially Paul's, that are written to the Gentile church. Therefore, no, we are not kidding you. The Olivet Discourse covers the entire church age, but is directed, for the most part, to Israel, (Descendants of Jacob). Then it covers the second half of the 70th week of Daniel, and finally, Jesus' second coming. This part is directed straight to those living in Israel at that time. They will see the abomination and they will flee.

Coop

 

[lecoop]

Can anyone list for me all scriptures pretaining to the rapture?

1 Thessalonians 4:15-18

1 Thess 1:10 And to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead, even Jesus, which delivered us from the wrath to come.

1 Thess 2:19 For what is our hope, or joy, or crown of rejoicing? Are not even ye in the presence of our Lord Jesus Christ at his coming?


1 Thess 5:9 For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,

1 Thess 5:23 And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.
(This coming to get the church)

1Cor 15:51-52

2 Thes 2:3 Apostasia meaning departure

Luke 21:36 Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.

Rev 3:10 Because you have kept my word of patient endurance, I will keep you from the hour of trial which is coming on the whole world, to try those who dwell upon the earth.

John 14

Rev 7: the great crowd without number.

This may not be an inclusive list.

Coop

 

[Vic C.]

2 Thes 2:3 Apostasia meaning departure

Heh? *big crowd noises with thumbs down* Boooooo, hisssssss, : :

 

[n2thelight]

lecoop


Lets look at your rapture verses

1 thess 4:15-18

First of all the subject for these verses starts at verse 13

I Thessalonians 4:13 "But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope."

The subject is simply,where are the dead

This concern is over "them which are asleep". The concern is over the loved ones that have died and left them, and their decaying bodies are out there in their grave. Paul is saying for us not to be sorry about those Christians who are dead and gone, for that is the concern of the heathen. The heathen's fear comes from their ignorance of God's word, and His promises. The heathen have no hope, for they believe it's over at the burial.

I Thessalonians 4:14 "For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him."

If we believe, as a Christian, that Christ set the example for us; so that we will follow as He did, in dying, and rising again, then "to sleep" is to be dead from the flesh body. The Greek is a simple language, for it's structure allows one to be more precise. The subject in the frame of this verse is; "that ye not be ignorant as to where the dead are." If you're a Christian, you know and believe that Jesus Christ died, was buried, and on the third day arose and came out of the tomb. If you do not believe this, Paul classifies you as ignorant, and heathen [non-believer].

I Thessalonians 4:15 "For we say unto you, by the word of our Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent in no wise [precede] them which are asleep."

"We which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord," this is our gathering back to Jesus Christ. "Shall not prevent them", would be better translated, "We are not going to precede [go before] them." We can not precede them for a very simple reason; the dead are already there with God. It is the only logical fact that can come from this. If you do not, or will not believe this, then you believe in soul sleep as the heathen do, and the hope and glory Paul is speaking of, for the Christian, and you are ignorant of God's glory. Whether victorious, or sentenced to hell, all the dead are now with the Father, and not in the ground.

Paul, in another writing, told us exactly; as far as the return of Jesus Christ, when we would be gathered back to Him. That goes also for when we would see those who are asleep [dead], and that exact moment is at the sounding of the seventh [last] trumpet. It will happen very quickly, in the wink [twinkling] of an eye. I Corinthians 15:50-54 tells us we will not go away to any place, but stay right here on earth. We are going to be changed into our new Spiritual bodies, and put off these flesh bodies.

Paul says, "Behold I show you a mystery". In other words, Paul is going to reveal something so we will not be ignorant about it. "We shall not all sleep [die] but we shall all be changed." I Corinthians 15:51 Changed to what? The same thing the dead are, and that is the subject. All those still in the flesh body, at a certain moment [the sounding of the seventh trumpet] will shed this flesh body [corruptible and perishable body] and take on the new "incorruptible" body. Friend, That is the hope and salvation of the Christian.

To document this, in I Corinthians 15:50 we are told that "flesh and blood cannot inherit", or face Jesus Christ in His kingdom. Christ's kingdom will cover the entire earth, and that is why the flesh body must perish. The time of this change comes at the seventh trumpet, which is the last trump, and stated in verse 52, "for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed".

Those who are even dead spiritually will be raised in an incorruptible body. That is a body that doesn't get sick, or grow old; in other words, it is your spiritual body.

Why?

Because the Kingdom of God is where ever Christ is; and at the seventh trump Christ will be on earth with the saints, and setting up his 1000 year millennium kingdom. No flesh and blood body can exist in that kingdom. This is your "gathering back to Christ", and that is what the rapture meaning is all about. It is the time when Christ comes back to earth and the saints that are alive are changed and drawn to Him.

I Corinthians 15:53, "For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality."

"Mortal" means "liable to die" in the Greek. At the last trump the Christians who stand against Satan, and his system, will have their immortality, however, those who fall for Antichrist and his system, will have to wait until after the 1000 years. "Corruptible into incorruption" is refering to the flesh body changing into the body such as the angels have, a spiritual body. Whereas the eternal condition of the soul is only extended to those who have not yielded to the Antichrist, For they only are the victors at the seventh trump. You put on immortality through Christ who set the way.

I Corinthians 15:54, "So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory."

Going back to I Thessalonians 4:15, we know when this will come to pass. It will be "at the last trump", when the alive in Christ are "changed", not flying away.

I Thessalonians 4:16 "For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with a voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first;"

The Lord is going to descend, at the seventh trump [the last trump]. Why will the dead in Christ rise first? Because they are already there, and with Him. All we have to do now is go to the book of Revelation, and find out in detail when this will be. We find out what events will occur just prior to this seventh trump sounding, and then when we see these certain events taking place before our eyes, we will know our Lord will return to earth next. Then the trump will sound, and the gathering will take place, and we will be changed from our flesh bodies to our spiritual bodies. And not one day before.

I Thessalonians 4:17 "Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord."

There is no FLY AWAY, no dodging of the tribulation of the Antichrist and his system's deceptions, but Christ will come and establish His kingdom on earth, and you will see it in your spiritual body. Got it?

Now what about the clouds, and the air? The "clouds" are in reference to a large gathering of people, as Paul used else where also. While the "air" spoken of here, in the Greek is "breath of life"; we will meet Jesus Christ in our "breath of life bodies, or spiritual bodies". That is the mystery Paul spoke of in I Corinthians 15:50-54.

There is no rapture in those verses

I Thessalonians 1:10 "And to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead, even Je'-sus, which delivered us from the wrath to come

Who is God's wrath directed against? His enemies. If you have accepted God [Jesus Christ], and have faith in Him, you are no longer an enemy of God, but one of His children. God is going to turn His real wrath on His enemies. However, God's protection will also extend to His children, as He gave in Daniel 3:21-25 to Shadrach, Meshach, and Abed-nego in the fiery furnace. This will be like the type of God's protection for His own children when the Babylon of the end times comes.

God is in total control at all times, and in all places, for He keeps His Word. Your reliance on His ability to keep His Word, and fulfill His promises are what is called "faith". Don't get carried away with the doomsayers of today, they are the ones making plans and laws that go opposite to God's Word. God is in control.

Jesus Himself, while on this earth said in Luke 21:12-17, that you will be delivered up to give answer in the "synagogues of Satan" [the churches of today], and that even your family and friends will betray you. "Ye shall be hated of all men for My Name sake". You know it will happen to us, because we are living in the "times and season" of the last generation, and He is talking to "His elect" in this generation. He is not talking to a pack of birds about to fly away.

Then Jesus said; "But their shall not an hair of your head perish." [Luke 21:18] Jesus then tells us where and how it comes about. "In your patience possess ye your souls." [Luke 21:19] We will win through our patience on waiting for the True Christ. Not jumping on the band wagon of the Antichrist, who will come first. If you think you will fly out first, you do not have that patience and you will take Satan [Antichrist] as your savior, Jesus said!

I Thessalonians 5:23 "And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ."

This is at the second coming.no rapturwe

1Cor 15:51-52

Explained above

2 Thes 2:3 Apostasia meaning departure

Apostasia,does not mean departure,it means falling away,and the falling away at that time will be falling from the truth

Definition from strongs concordance

Lexicon Results for apostasia (Strong's G646) Greek for G646 ἀποστασία Transliteration
apostasia
Pronunciation

ä-po-stä-sē'-ä (Key)

Part of Speech
feminine noun

Root Word (Etymology)

feminine of the same as G647

TDNT Reference
1:513,88
Vines
View Entry


Outline of Biblical Usage 1) a falling away, defection, apostasy


Authorized Version (KJV) Translation Count  Total: 2 AV  to forsake + 575 1, falling away 1 Thayer's Lexicon (Help)

A falling away deception from true religion


II Thessalonians 2:3 "Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come [it will not be], except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;"

Jesus Christ is not gathering anyone to Him, nor is He coming here to earth, except there be a falling away first. The word for "falling away", in the Greek is "apostasy". Jesus told us in His revelation to John, in Revelation 9:11, that "Apollyon" is one of Satan's names, and this name is derived from the word apostasy.

The word "perdition" means "one that perishes". Satan and only Satan has already been condemned to die [to perish] by God. Satan's judgment day has come already back in the first earth age, and he will have no part in the Great White Throne judgment, or any other judgment yet to come. He has already been judged, and sentence by God to death "perdition" [Ezekiel 28 covers this judgment]

.