The rapture of the Church

[Solo]

Tribulation and persecution of the world is not the wrath of God.

 

[Vic C.]

Re: reply

What about 1 Thess. 5:9 God did not appoint us to wrath. The Martyrs of old went through trials and tribulations, but nothiing compared to the wrath of God on earth during the great tribulation. Matt. 24: 21 says for there will be great tribulation, such as has not been since the beginning of the world until this time, no, nor ever shall be. God said this, not me.



May God bless, Golfjack

Yes, I agree. I posted this on the previous page and have posted it many times in the past.

Sister, you quoted me, but the quote is blank. Are you responding to Onelove's statement?

Going through God's wrath is not for us. 1 Thess 5:9 says "For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,"

The Wrath is not for us! The question here shouldn't be whether we re going through God's Wrath, but whether we will be subjected through the persecution (wrath) caused by Satan.

Satan's persecution and God's Wrath are two separate events, no matter what the seven-years tribbers say....

 

[n2thelight]

Let me take the time to show what will be happening to Christains who know the truth during the tribulation,and trust me they won't be trying to fly away,they will be doing the work of the Lord,like I said,until the end.

Mark 13:9 "But take heed to yourselves: for they shall deliver you up to councils; and in the synagogues ye shall be beaten: and ye shall be brought before rulers and kings for My sake,, for a testimony against them."

Mark 13:11 "But when they shall lead you, and deliver you up, take no thought beforehand what ye shall speak, neither do ye premeditate: but whatsoever shall be given you in that hour, that speak ye: for it is not ye that speak, but the Holy Ghost [Spirit]."

Can you understand whats happening here,this is during the time of the anti christ,the tribulation of satan,if you are one of the Elect,you will be broght before satan,it will be at this time that the true speaking of tongues shall happen again,because the Holy Spirit will be speaking through you.

During his reign satan cannot touch God's elect

Revelation 9:4 "And it was commanded them [Satan and his fallen angels] that they should not hurt the grass of the earth, neither any green thing, neither any tree; but only those men which have not the seal of God in their foreheads."

(you all will be gone,but those that know the truth will still be here)
Give me a break

Luke 21:18 "But there shall not an hair of your head perish."

Again satan can't touch you,but people will be killed,but it will be at the hands of those who think they are working for God

John 16:2 "They shall put you out of the synagogues: yea, the time cometh, that whosoever killeth you will think that he doeth God service."

satan however will kill the two witneses,against God 's orders,it is at this time that you can know when Christ will return,because it will be within the hour after the two witneses rise

Revelation 11:12 "And they heard a great voice from heaven saying unto them, Come up hither. And they ascended up to heaven in a cloud; and their enemies beheld them."

Revelation 11:13 "And the same hour was there a great earthquake, and the tenth part of the city fell, and in the earthquake were slain of men seven thousand: and the remnant were affrighted, and gave glory to the God of heaven."

Do you all even know who these seven thousand are?

Let me say this,those of you who are waiting on the rapture,will be deceived,because you no not the truth,and God will allow you to believe that lie,do you no what lie?well let me tell you,that satan is Christ.

These verses from thes are written to you(rapturist)and all others who no not the truth

II Thessalonians 2:10 "And with all deceivableness [deceit] of unrighteousness in [for] them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth,"

II Thessalonians 2:11 "And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion [send them a working of error], that they should a lie;"

Now if you go back to verse 3,Paul told you when we will gather back to Christ,and that is only after the anti christ is revealed

II Thessalonians 2:3 "Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come [it will not be], except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;"

The falling away is from the truth,and this rapture that you all are waiting for is not the truth

The tribulation of satan is nothing but deception,that's why Christ's number 1 warning was for you not to be,but sadly most of you already are.

Matthew 24:3 "And as He sat upon the mount of Olives the disciples came unto Him privately, saying, "Tell us, when shall these things be and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?"

Matthew 24:4 "And Jesus answered and said unto them, "Take heed that no man deceive you."

The rapture is not found anywhere in God's word,period.

 

[Vic C.]

Hi onelove,

You said:

Again satan can't touch you,but people will be killed,but it will be at the hands of those who think they are working for God

Good point. There is a passage in Revelation:

Rev 13:14 And deceiveth them that dwell on the earth by the means of those miracles which he had power to do in the sight of the beast; saying to them that dwell on the earth, that they should make an image to the beast, which had the wound by a sword, and did live.
Rev 13:15 And he had power to give life unto the image of the beast, that the image of the beast should both speak, and cause that as many as would not worship the image of the beast should be killed.

In Robert Van Kampen's book, The Sign, he suggests that possibly the followers are commanded to make an image of their own. These images would be given power to talk and possibly command the followers to kill believers.

SO, each follower would have their own personal image of the beast. ;-)

 

[sisterchristian]

Sister, you quoted me, but the quote is blank. Are you responding to Onelove's statement?

Going through God's wrath is not for us. 1 Thess 5:9 says "For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,"

The Wrath is not for us! The question here shouldn't be whether we re going through God's Wrath, but whether we will be subjected through the persecution (wrath) caused by Satan.

Satan's persecution and God's Wrath are two separate events, no matter what the sever-years tribbers say.

So Onelove's question is valid; why would anyone want an easy escape from Persecution if 1) this is the very time we as witnesses to Christ, will be needed the most and 2) there is NO promise whatsoever that we are to escape any form of Tribulation. Can't find it... anywhere in my Bible. I find just the opposite.

Until people understand that there IS no seven year period of Tribulation stated in the Bible... nowhere, they will always misunderstand the difference between Satan's wrath and God's WRATH!

I will give anyone $50.00 if they can find a verse that says there will be a seven year period of Tribulation. Let it be known that people much more "educated" in this than us have taken the challenge and so far failed.

See here for proof -->http://www.americanvision.org/articlearchive/06-05-06.asp

Hey, read my signature.

Sorry, I meant to quote Onelove, but in Rev.3:10 it says; "Because you have kept my command to persevere, I also will keep you from the hour of trial which shall come upon the whole world, To test those who dwell on the earth. That sounds to me like the ones who will be tested will be the ones left behind (still dwelling on the earth). Also in the book of revelations from the first chapter through the third chapter of Rev. there are several references to the church, however, from the fourth chapter until the nineteenth chapter, as the tribulation is discussed, the church is not mentioned. from this argument of silence, I would assume the church is not on earth during this time.

 

[Vic C.]

Also in the book of revelations from the first chapter through the third chapter of Rev. there are several references to the church, however, from the fourth chapter until the nineteenth chapter, as the tribulation is discussed, the church is not mentioned. from this argument of silence, I would assume the church is not on earth during this time.

I assume from what you just posted, that you aren't Pre Wrath but Pre Tribulation. I just don't see anything in Revelation 4:1-2 that indicates anything more than John being called up. The first five seals are not Wrath. If anything, many of them would indivate some form of earthly tribulation. From a Pre Wrath position, the Great Tribulation would begin somewhere around Revelation 6:8-9.

Biblical silence doesn't always mean omission, however. The Bible is silent about the Godhead being Triune, but we derive this doctrine as we take on the whole word of God. Same thing here; we see a great multitude in Rev 7:9 and we see this as well:

Rev 12:17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

We know this cant be the Jews or unbelieving gentiles, for they do not have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

As for Revelation 3:10, I posted this on page 24:

Revelation 3:10 is an intereresting verse. There is argument as to what the word "keep" means in Rev 3:10

3:10 Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.

Some see this as a "rapture" verse, saying that keep really means "remove". :o I see it as a promise of protection for the true Church as they go through tribulation. I also see the Great Trib as a two event period. One event being the persecution of God's people by antichrist and his followers.

The word "keep" in that verse comes from the Greek word "tereo"; which means tp protect or guard.

from teros (a watch); to guard (from loss or injury, properly, by keeping the eye upon; by implication, to detain

This verse promises the Church of Philadelphia, which is known as the true church, the unblemished church, the virgin Church (virgin, as in virgin Christian doctrine) protection from the satanic persecition portion of the GT, (the hour of temptation) while others will be "tempted" by antichrist to join him and take his mark.

There is no real promise of removal in Rev 3:10, just "protection".

 

[sisterchristian]

So vic, did you say you DON'T believe in th 7 year tribulation period?

 

[golfjack]

reply

Vic, That was a pretty good spin job to prove that there is no rapture. Come on now, You will listen to a man about pre-wrath, but disregard what has been written by many about end-times, which I would say that most Evengelicals agree.



May God bless, Golfjack

 

[Vic C.]

So vic, did you say you DON'T believe in th 7 year tribulation period?

Correct, when I am discussing futurism, I do not see the 70th week as as all Tribulation. Most futuristic views believe the first 3 1/2 years will be a time of false peace.

1 Thess 5:3 For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.

Now, when I am discussing my Historicism beliefs, I don't even take a sever year period into consideration, because in the Historical view, that period has passed and had nothing to do with Tribulation as we know it.

Come to think of it, the Bible doesn't even claim a seven year period of Tribulation. It certainly isn't found in Revelation. ;-)

Is this confusing to you? I know I often jump from one position to another.

 

[Solo]

Correct, when I am discussing futurism, I do not see the 70th week as as all Tribulation. Most futuristic views believe the first 3 1/2 years will be a time of false peace.

1 Thess 5:3 For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.

Now, when I am discussing my Historicism beliefs, I don't even take a sever year period into consideration, because in the Historical view, that period has passed and had nothing to do with Tribulation as we know it.

Come to think of it, the Bible doesn't even claim a seven year period of Tribulation. It certainly isn't found in Revelation. ;-)

Is this confusing to you? I know I often jump from one position to another.

I agree.

 

[Vic C.]

I agree.

You agree with my stuttering too? LOL

Correct, when I am discussing futurism, I do not see the 70th week as as all Tribulation. Most futuristic views believe the first 3 1/2 years will be a time of false peace.

:

 

[Vic C.]

Re: reply

Vic, That was a pretty good spin job to prove that there is no rapture. Come on now, You will listen to a man about pre-wrath, but disregard what has been written by many about end-times, which I would say that most Evengelicals agree.



May God bless, Golfjack

I wan't trying to prove no rapture; I was trying to show no Pre Tribulation Rapture. 8-)

 

[Solo]

I agree.

You agree with my stuttering too? LOL

Correct, when I am discussing futurism, I do not see the 70th week as as all Tribulation. Most futuristic views believe the first 3 1/2 years will be a time of false peace.

:

Yes Yes

 

[lecoop]

Coop, I really didn't see much pride in onelove's last post.

I would like to see some of you address this statement:

Onelove wrote:

I really can't believe that as a Christain at a time when your unsaved friends and loved ones will need you the most,when the state of their very soul will be at stake, you would wish to fly away and leave them alone.

Can you grasp where you would be right now had Christ chose not to go through what He did for you,and I can assure you,He went through more trails and tribulations than you ever will.

Aside from the fact that we are not going anywhere,Im ready for this fight,in fact Im very much looking forward to it.

You all sound like a bunch of whimps, and at the risk of sounding harsh I don't think my Father could use you all during that time(tribulation)anyway

This really has nothing at all to do with what I wish, but what is written, and what is the will of the Father. Can you imagine one of Noah's sons telling Noah, "No, I won't get on the boat. At this time, I want to be ministering to my friends..."

Or Lot's daughter: "Dad, I cannot go, for I must remain at this critical time to witness to my friends."

We should have already turned over unsaved loved ones to the Lord, and should be trusting in Him to bring them in. Therefore, it makes no difference whether or not we are here or in heaven: our faith is in our FAther to bring them in.

Coop

 

[lecoop]

sisterchristian



Let me ask you a question,why are you afraid of the wrath of God,if you belong to Him?My Father can and will protect His own.

Another question,do you even know what the wrath of God is?

Do you even know what the tribulation is?

My Father told me to endure till the end not seek to run away for he who seeks to save his life will lose it

Luke 9:24 "For whosoever will save his life shall lose it: but whosoever will lose his life for My sake, the same shall save it."

I have no reason to be affraid of His wrath at all, for He has already said that I would be delivered out of it. Why then should I fear it?

Yes, I do know what His wrath is. Anyone that believes what is written will also know. We see reference to "the day of His wrath" at the 6th seal. That "day of His wrath" starts at the 7th seal, and goes at least to the battle of Armageddon.

"The tribulation" has different biblical definitions. Many use this word to define or title the 70th week of Daniel. Yet John said that he was in "the tribulation" way back in 95 AD. It is a fact: "tribulation" follows the church.

Coop

 

[Vic C.]

... Can you imagine one of Noah's sons telling Noah, "No, I won't get on the boat. At this time, I want to be ministering to my friends..."

Or Lot's daughter: "Dad, I cannot go, for I must remain at this critical time to witness to my friends."

We should have already turned over unsaved loved ones to the Lord, and should be trusting in Him to bring them in. Therefore, it makes no difference whether or not we are here or in heaven: our faith is in our FAther to bring them in.

Coop

The part I set in bold is a good point.

As for Noah and his family; while we have no clue how long it took to build the ark, we could imagine them "witnessing" and preaching of the calamity that was to come.

Another observation we should make is that Noah and his family were not taken away (removed); they were protected. Something to think about 8-)

 

[lecoop]

So Onelove's question is valid; why would anyone want an easy escape from Persecution if 1) this is the very time we as witnesses to Christ, will be needed the most and 2) there is NO promise whatsoever that we are to escape any form of Tribulation. Can't find it... anywhere in my Bible. I find just the opposite.

Vic, again we get into trouble with not having a solid definition and title of the 70th week of Daniel. Many still want to call this 7 year period of time "the tribulation." If you are referring to the 70th week, I must disagree with you, as John shows the great crowd without number in heaven, before the 70th week starts.

Until people understand that there IS no seven year period of Tribulation stated in the Bible... nowhere, they will always misunderstand the difference between Satan's wrath and God's WRATH!

There is most certainly a 7 year period, but I choose to call it the 70th week of Daniel. Really, all it takes is an understanding of John's chronology, and simple math. The two witnesses will testify for 1260 days during the second half of the 70th week. The temple will be trampled for 42 months during the second half of the 70th week. The woman will be protected and fed for 1260 days or "time, times and half of time," during the second half of the 70th week. Finally, the beast will have his authority during the second half of the 70th week. We therefore have five witnesses that the second half of the week will be 1260 days long. If this is half, then the whole is 1260 times two, or 2520 days, or 42 months times two or 84 months. Seven years times 12 is 84. Finally, two times 3 1/2 is 7. How then can anyone argue that there is not a 7 year period of time? Don't get hung up on what we call it. It is going to happen, and soon. That is what is important.

What will this 7 years consist of? It will be part of the "day of God's wrath." In other words, God's wrath will be felt on earth, during the trumpet judgements, and during the vial judgements, and even at the battle of Armageddon.

I will give anyone $50.00 if they can find a verse that says there will be a seven year period of Tribulation. Let it be known that people much more "educated" in this than us have taken the challenge and so far failed.

Keep your fifty dollars, but there will be 7 years. Will there be "pressure" during all 7 years? Of course there will be! But not all from Satan. It will be pressure from God to repent! When 1/3 of the trees and grass are gone, and 1/3 of the seas and fresh water are blood, it will be pressure to live! It will be a time of total lawlessness. However, in this one aspect, you are correct: the pressure not to lose your head if you refuse the mark, will only last a portion of the last 42 months. Therefore, we could say that Jesus' "Great tribulation" will indeed last less than 3 1/2 years.
[/quote]

Coop

 

[lecoop]

Re: reply

Paul speaks of the believers gathering in the air when Jesus Christ returns. He writes that two things must occur prior to Jesus' return. First, the falling away from sound doctrine must occur, and then the man of sin will be revealed. Jesus will not return until after these two things occur, just as Jesus described in Matthew 24.

Which "return" are you referring to? Does Jesus "return" when we meet Him in the air? I would surely say so. He does not call from heaven, but comes to meet us in the air. What must happen before this return to meet Him in the air? Nothing.

However, before His return on the white horse, the beast indeed shall be revealed, and the day of the Lord will be started. The 70th week will be finished. As hard as people try to make the gathering together of the elect in Matt. 24 as the rapture, there is simple no way of proving it. In fact, if one understand John's chornology, it is clear that it is not the rapture.

Coop

 

[n2thelight]

In all of Christ's teachings,can anyone show me where He taught the rapture?

 

[lecoop]

Let me take the time to show what will be happening to Christains who know the truth during the tribulation,and trust me they won't be trying to fly away,they will be doing the work of the Lord,like I said,until the end.

Mark 13:9 "But take heed to yourselves: for they shall deliver you up to councils; and in the synagogues ye shall be beaten: and ye shall be brought before rulers and kings for My sake,, for a testimony against them."

This verse has nothing to do with the "day of the Lord," or the 70th week of Daniel.

Mark 13:11 "But when they shall lead you, and deliver you up, take no thought beforehand what ye shall speak, neither do ye premeditate: but whatsoever shall be given you in that hour, that speak ye: for it is not ye that speak, but the Holy Ghost [Spirit]."

This verse has nothing to do with the "day of the Lord," or the 70th week of Daniel.

Can you understand whats happening here,this is during the time of the anti christ,the tribulation of satan,if you are one of the Elect,you will be broght before satan,it will be at this time that the true speaking of tongues shall happen again,because the Holy Spirit will be speaking through you.

Sorry, but these verses are not referring to the time the antichrist will be here. Did you not read what Jesus said? "The end is not yet..."

During his reign satan cannot touch God's elect

Again, you are not reading.

Dan. 7
21 “I was watching; and the same horn was making war against the saints, and prevailing against them,

Rev 7
7 It was granted to him to make war with the saints and to overcome them.

Revelation 9:4 "And it was commanded them [Satan and his fallen angels] that they should not hurt the grass of the earth, neither any green thing, neither any tree; but only those men which have not the seal of God in their foreheads."

Please don't put your erroneous thoughts into scripture. This is as bogus as anything you have ever written. Who has the power to hurt the earth?

They are angels, and not fallen angels. The trumpets, where the "hurt" begins, are blown in heaven, and it is God's angels that bring these judgements.

Again satan can't touch you,but people will be killed,but it will be at the hands of those who think they are working for God

Go back and read the two verses above once again.

satan however will kill the two witneses,against God 's orders,it is at this time that you can know when Christ will return,because it will be within the hour after the two witneses rise

Scripture and verse please?

Revelation 11:13 "And the same hour was there a great earthquake, and the tenth part of the city fell, and in the earthquake were slain of men seven thousand: and the remnant were affrighted, and gave glory to the God of heaven."

Do you all even know who these seven thousand are?

I suppose you do?

Let me say this,those of you who are waiting on the rapture,will be deceived,because you no not the truth,and God will allow you to believe that lie,do you no what lie?well let me tell you,that satan is Christ.

Let me say this: Jesus is coming for those that are looking for His coming. Are you looking? It seems not.

Now if you go back to verse 3,Paul told you when we will gather back to Christ,and that is only after the anti christ is revealed

Paul did not say this at all.

II Thessalonians 2:3 "Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come [it will not be], except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;"

What "day?" Of course, the day He just mentioned: the day of the Lord. NOT the day of the rapture. We will be gone before the day of the Lord. Plain and simple. Read Rev. 7.

The falling away is from the truth,and this rapture that you all are waiting for is not the truth

How do you know what the departure is from? Paul did not tell us.

The tribulation of satan is nothing but deception,that's why Christ's number 1 warning was for you not to be,but sadly most of you already are.

The tribulation of Satan, is PRESSURE! Either take the mark, or lose your head!

The rapture is not found anywhere in God's word,period.

If you don't see it, it will be certain that you will not be looking for His coming.

Coop