The rapture of the Church

[Gabbylittleangel]

Thank you Solo. 8-)

 

[Solo]

Thank you Solo. 8-)

You are welcome. :wink:

 

[BenJasher]

.... This parable is given in reference to the Nation of Israel. The Bride of Christ is always the Nation of Israel.
....

What are Christians?

Ok, Gabby;
Vic and Solo have tried to clarify the answer to that question for you, and me. Thanks Guys! But let me add to what has already been said. Hopefully, I won't get banned for what I am about to say, or confuse you.

Marriage is the first covenant given by God to man. The purpose of this covenant was to create, or re-create life. (Did you know that there is an underlying purpose to every covenant?) We could therefore surmise that marriage is a holy and important thing in the eyes of God.

His earliest dealings with man begin with a marriage. His final dealings will close with a marriage. In the passage that Solo presented to you, we see a marriage taking place. The Bride of Christ is being united to the Body of Christ on a cosmological scale, and the purpose of this union will also be to produce life. It is my absolute conviction that God intends to populate the Universe with Himself.

 

[lecoop]

You are correct... we can say the Church is the Bride. We have that prerogative. However, the Bible does not indicate the church is the bride, so it is not true teaching. The Bible teaches us that Israel is the bride.

Sorry... :-?

Who are these?

Rev 19:
6 And I heard as it were the voice of a great multitude, and as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of mighty thunderings, saying, Alleluia: for the Lord God omnipotent reigneth.
7 Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to him: for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife hath made herself ready.
8 And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints.
9 And he saith unto me, Write, Blessed are they which are called unto the marriage supper of the Lamb. And he saith unto me, These are the true sayings of God.
10 And I fell at his feet to worship him. And he said unto me, See thou do it not: I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren that have the testimony of Jesus: worship God: for the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy.
11 And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse;

The old covenant Israel used to be His bride, but the groom died, releasing both sides from this wedding.

Romans 7
2 For the woman which hath an husband is bound by the law to her husband so long as he liveth; but if the husband be dead, she is loosed from the law of her husband.
3 So then if, while her husband liveth, she be married to another man, she shall be called an adulteress: but if her husband be dead, she is free from that law; so that she is no adulteress, though she be married to another man.
4 Wherefore, my brethren, ye also are become dead to the law by the body of Christ; that ye should be married to another, even to him who is raised from the dead,

However, God divorced Israel even before He died:

Jeremiah 3:8
And I saw, when for all the causes whereby backsliding Israel committed adultery I had put her away, and given her a bill of divorce; yet her treacherous sister Judah feared not, but went and played the harlot also.

Therefore, I still believe that the church is to be His bride. However, correct me if I am wrong.

Coop

 

[BenJasher]

Coop,
Wake up! You are asleep at the wheel again. It doesn't matter what you believe if it doesn't line up with scripture.

It is commonly and traditionally taught that the Church is the Bride of Christ. But no. The scripture overwhelmingly affirms that the Nation of Israel is the Bride, and the Church is the Body of Christ. There are spurious scriptures such as the one Gabby brought up a while back. But if examined in the proper context, it is clear that Paul was referring to the Corinthian Church specifically, and not the Church as a whole on an eschatological level.

The unfortunate side effect of believing that we are the Bride of Christ is that we have no way of coming to the understanding of who we really are in the Plan of God.

Jesus was the physical embodiment of the Godhead. But yet, "as He is, so are we in this world." The direct implication of that statement is that we also are the embodiment of the Godhead. If we are His Bride, that would not pertain to us. The understanding that we are His Bride therefore is causing you to live beneath your allotment.

If we are His Bride, we cannot be joint-heirs with Him. Women weren't reckoned into any inheritance.

If we are His Bride, it is necessary for us to give birth to the Man-Child. We can't. We are the Man-Child.

Do you still want to be the Bride?

 

[lecoop]

Coop,
Wake up! You are asleep at the wheel again. It doesn't matter what you believe if it doesn't line up with scripture.

It is commonly and traditionally taught that the Church is the Bride of Christ. But no. The scripture overwhelmingly affirms that the Nation of Israel is the Bride, and the Church is the Body of Christ. There are spurious scriptures such as the one Gabby brought up a while back. But if examined in the proper context, it is clear that Paul was referring to the Corinthian Church specifically, and not the Church as a whole on an eschatological level.

The unfortunate side effect of believing that we are the Bride of Christ is that we have no way of coming to the understanding of who we really are in the Plan of God.

Jesus was the physical embodiment of the Godhead. But yet, "as He is, so are we in this world." The direct implication of that statement is that we also are the embodiment of the Godhead. If we are His Bride, that would not pertain to us. The understanding that we are His Bride therefore is causing you to live beneath your allotment.

If we are His Bride, we cannot be joint-heirs with Him. Women weren't reckoned into any inheritance.

If we are His Bride, it is necessary for us to give birth to the Man-Child. We can't. We are the Man-Child.

Do you still want to be the Bride?

Then:
Who are these?

Rev 19:
6 And I heard as it were the voice of a great multitude, and as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of mighty thunderings, saying, Alleluia: for the Lord God omnipotent reigneth.
7 Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to him: for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife hath made herself ready.

Are you going to tell me that this great multitude is make up of Jews? I don't think so! I suspect that they are the same group as seen in the great crowd without number in chapter 7. However, if you see something here I don't see, by all means enlighten me.

Coop

 

[BenJasher]

Coop,

Then:
Who are these?

Rev 19:
6 And I heard as it were the voice of a great multitude, and as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of mighty thunderings, saying, Alleluia: for the Lord God omnipotent reigneth.
7 Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to him: for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife hath made herself ready.

Are you going to tell me that this great multitude is make up of Jews? I don't think so! I suspect that they are the same group as seen in the great crowd without number in chapter 7. However, if you see something here I don't see, by all means enlighten me.

My first question would be "What is it about that scripture that you think disagrees with what I have said?"

My second question would be "What is it about that scripture that makes you think that this multitude would be made up of Israelites?"

BTW: Israelites is the proper moniker. To say that they are Jews would be to confine them to only one of the twelve tribes. To call them Israeli's would be incorrect as well. Our God never made any covenants with an Israeli.

This passage of scripture is only relating to us that there is a great multitude worshipping the Lord and that there is an announcement in Heaven that the Marriage of the Lamb is now ready to begin.

What makes you think this scripture is at odds with what has been said here?

 

[Jay T]

Jay, I doubt they will ever get that if they continue to mistranslate and use verse 2:3 as proof text, ignoring the message and meaning of the entire passage. :-?

You may be right, Vic.

2 Thess. 2:1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and [by] our gathering together unto him,
2:2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.
2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for [that day shall not come], except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
2:4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God.
2:5 Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things?
2:6 And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time.
2:7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth [will let], until he be taken out of the way.
2:8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:

 

[lecoop]

Ben Jasher said

My first question would be "What is it about that scripture that you think disagrees with what I have said?"

Who is this great crowd? Whoever it is, is just about to become the "wife" pf the groom. Therefore, according to your idea, this great crowd must then be Israelites, since it is they that are about to be married.

Rev 19
6 And I heard as it were the voice of a great multitude, and as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of mighty thunderings, saying, Alleluia: for the Lord God omnipotent reigneth.
7 Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to him: for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife hath made herself ready.
8 And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints.
9 And he saith unto me, Write, Blessed are they which are called unto the marriage supper of the Lamb. And he saith unto me, These are the true sayings of God.
10 And I fell at his feet to worship him. And he said unto me, See thou do it not: I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren that have the testimony of Jesus: worship God: for the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy.

First, we read that the marriage of the Lamb has come. His wife has made herself ready. It goes without saying, that the "wife" is who is about to be married to the Lamb. So who is the wife? I say she is the church, and you disagree. Why would you believe this group is any other than the church? Where does the Word show God calling together all the Israelites before this moment in time?

My second question would be "What is it about that scripture that makes you think that this multitude would be made up of Israelites?"

I believe this great multitude is the church, and the church is about to be married to the Lamb. It seems it is you that must believe this group is not the church.

BTW: Israelites is the proper moniker. To say that they are Jews would be to confine them to only one of the twelve tribes. To call them Israeli's would be incorrect as well. Our God never made any covenants with an Israeli.

Of course in one sense you are correct. But common usages has widened: here is one definition from Dictionary.com:

noun
a person belonging to the worldwide group claiming descent from Jacob (or converted to it) and connected by cultural or religious ties

This passage of scripture is only relating to us that there is a great multitude worshipping the Lord and that there is an announcement in Heaven that the Marriage of the Lamb is now ready to begin.

I am beginning to see what you are saying. There is no real link that shows this great multitude to be the ones in white linen. There is a reason to believe it is the church about to be married. John has shown that the rapture has taken place, and the church is in heaven. John has not shown us that the resurrection of the Israelites has taken place. Of course, it is possible that He will marry the 144,000 firstfruits, for they also have been raptured! However, there is no hint of this. Of course, it is also possible that the time for the marriage has come, but not the location! Perhaps the Lamb, and the saints on white horses are the wedding procession! John does not tell us that the wedding actually took place in heaven. However, I doubt this scenario. Therefore, if you can enlighten me, please do. I am not settled on this issue.

What makes you think this scripture is at odds with what has been said here?

Answered in the previous answers.

Coop

 

[BenJasher]

Ok, Coop, let's go:

Who is this great crowd? Whoever it is, is just about to become the "wife" pf the groom. Therefore, according to your idea, this great crowd must then be Israelites, since it is they that are about to be married.

What gives you the idea that they are about to be wed to the Bridegroom? Notice that in the declaration by this vast throng of folks, they speak of the Bride making herself ready in the third person? That might work as an odd quirk gimmick like what BenJasher does at times, but beyond that it would be grammatically incorrect.

Where does the Word show God calling together all the Israelites before this moment in time?

You aren't very familiar with scripture, are you? (I mean that respectfully of course...)

All Israel shall be saved as it is written...

And who is to say that at the point in time referred to in Rev 19, that all Israel hasn't been brought in? By virtue of the necessity of all the factors involved, all Israel will have to have been brought in at this time, if the marriage supper is about to take place. A wedding cannot take place if either of the two parties aren't present.

I believe this great multitude is the church, and the church is about to be married to the Lamb. It seems it is you that must believe this group is not the church.

I have given your last statement a lot of thought. I have tried very hard to find some point of agreement. But I can't find one. When it comes right down to it, I can't honestly say that I know for certain that this group is or is not the Church. The Church will be married to the Bride, not the Bridegroom. The Church is the Bridegroom.

This passage of scripture is the wrong place to begin to disprove what I am saying to you here. It neither proves nor disproves my or your point of view.

 

[BenJasher]

One more thing, Coop:

Of course in one sense you are correct. But common usages has widened: here is one definition from Dictionary.com:

noun
a person belonging to the worldwide group claiming descent from Jacob (or converted to it) and connected by cultural or religious ties

Common usage. Dictionary definitions. Those are fine and good if you are talking in modern speech. But you can't discern the meaning of almost 500 year old terminology with modern day common usage and modern day definitions.

We talk like that on a daily basis. We even discuss scripture with these terms. And all is well with that. But in a serious pursuit of the truth, we need to be more attentive to the meaning of the words we use.

 

[lecoop]

Ok, Coop, let's go:

What gives you the idea that they are about to be wed to the Bridegroom? Notice that in the declaration by this vast throng of folks, they speak of the Bride making herself ready in the third person? That might work as an odd quirk gimmick like what BenJasher does at times, but beyond that it would be grammatically incorrect.

Agreed.

You aren't very familiar with scripture, are you? (I mean that respectfully of course...)

Romans 11:26 wrote:
All Israel shall be saved as it is written...

This is a statement of fact, but not a statement of timing. But, since you are in Romans, did you notice this one?

Romans 7:4
Wherefore, my brethren, ye also are become dead to the law by the body of Christ; that ye should be married to another, even to him who is raised from the dead, that we should bring forth fruit unto God.

And who is to say that at the point in time referred to in Rev 19, that all Israel hasn't been brought in? By virtue of the necessity of all the factors involved, all Israel will have to have been brought in at this time, if the marriage supper is about to take place. A wedding cannot take place if either of the two parties aren't present.

Exactly! Now you are catching on! I believe all Israel is brought in here:

Matt 24
31And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

And when does this event take place? About the moment that Jesus hits the atmosphere of earth, even before He touches down, the angels are sent out.

I have given your last statement a lot of thought. I have tried very hard to find some point of agreement. But I can't find one. When it comes right down to it, I can't honestly say that I know for certain that this group is or is not the Church. The Church will be married to the Bride, not the Bridegroom. The Church is the Bridegroom.

Hmmm. Paul said that we, the church, would be "married to another, even to him who is raised from the dead." Rev 21 shows that the great city, and by general reasoning, those that inhabit her, will be the bride. Who will be in the city? I suspect the church and the OT saints!

This passage of scripture is the wrong place to begin to disprove what I am saying to you here. It neither proves nor disproves my or your point of view.

There are others, as this one from Paul:

2 Cor 11:2 For I am jealous over you with godly jealousy: for I have espoused you to one husband, that I may present you as a chaste virgin to Christ.

Paul is saying that the church will be presented to Christ as a chaste virgin, and that he, Paul, has "espoused" the church to one husband. This sure sounds like the church will be the bride.

Then we have the scripture in John, just like the Jewish wedding, where the groom goes and prepares a place, then comes and gets the bride and takes her to that place. Jesus said that He was going to prepare a place. Over the last few years, He has taken many on a visit to see the city, and the places He has prepared. This sound very much like we are to be His bride.

The seven years, a year for a day, also fits the Jewish wedding week.

So it appears we are still learning.

Coop

 

[Vic C.]

I have a question, isn't Romans 7 speaking to Jews? I had thought it was. :-?

Rom 7:1 Know ye not, brethren, (for I speak to them that know the law,) how that the law hath dominion over a man as long as he liveth?

Clarke's commentary even seemd to agree. So does the conrext of the passage.

NOTES ON CHAP. VII.

The apostle having, in the preceding chapter, shown the converted Gentiles the obligations they were under to live a holy life, addresses himself here to the Jews who might hesitate to embrace the Gospel; lest, by this means, they should renounce the law, which might appear to them as a renunciation of their allegiance to God. As they rested in the law, as sufficient for justification and sanctification, it was necessary to convince them of their mistake. That the law was insufficient for their justification the apostle had proved, in chapters iii., iv., and v.; that it is insufficient for their sanctification he shows in this chapter; and introduces his discourse by showing that a believing Jew is discharged from his obligations to the law, and is at liberty to come under another and much happier constitution, ...

http://www.godrules.net/library/clarke/clarkerom7.htm

The seven years, a year for a day, also fits the Jewish wedding week.

Yes it does Coop. ;-)

 

[Solo]

I have a question, isn't Romans 7 speaking to Jews? I had thought it was. :-?

Rom 7:1 Know ye not, brethren, (for I speak to them that know the law,) how that the law hath dominion over a man as long as he liveth?

Clarke's commentary even seemd to agree. So does the conrext of the passage.


Yes it does Coop. ;-)

Paul wrote the letter to the Romans (The Book of Romans) "to all that be in Rome, beloved of God, called to be saints". Romans 7 explains the difference between the flesh under the law which is spiritual and the born again spirit under the law. Paul states truths in Romans 7 that are useful in understanding our condition as believers with the inward man delighting in the law of God, and the flesh being carnal warring against the inward man.

1 Paul, a servant of Jesus Christ, called to be an apostle, separated unto the gospel of God, 2 (Which he had promised afore by his prophets in the holy scriptures,) 3 Concerning his Son Jesus Christ our Lord, which was made of the seed of David according to the flesh; 4 And declared F1 to be the Son of God with power, according to the spirit of holiness, by the resurrection from the dead: 5 By whom we have received grace and apostleship, for obedience to the faith among all nations, for his name: 6 Among whom are ye also the called of Jesus Christ: 7 To all that be in Rome, beloved of God, called to be saints: Grace to you and peace from God our Father, and the Lord Jesus Christ. Romans 1:1-7

 

[Vic C.]

Thanks for your comments Michael.

I'd like to hear your beliefs on the Bride and the Body of Christ. Thanks in advance.

Anyone else believe like I do about Romans 7? Why? How about those who disagree. Why? 8-)

 

[Jay T]

Thanks for your comments Michael.

I'd like to hear your beliefs on the Bride and the Body of Christ. Thanks in advance.

Anyone else believe like I do about Romans 7? Why? How about those who disagree. Why? 8-)

You may be right, Vic.
I do know that the man in Romans 7 is an UNconverted man, who wants to be saved.

The whole context of Romans 7 says that....as compared to Romans 8, which is the converted man.

 

[Solo]

You may be right, Vic.
I do know that the man in Romans 7 is an UNconverted man, who wants to be saved.

The whole context of Romans 7 says that....as compared to Romans 8, which is the converted man.

Paul is the man in Romans 7 and he is converted. Paul is the man in Romans 8 and he is still converted.

If the SDAs would properly read Romans 7 and 8 they would understand salvation, justification, sanctification, and glorification. Until they do they will make up things like you just have.

 

[Vic C.]

Ok, ok, lets not turn this into a denominational issue please.

Solo, I asked if you had any thoughts you can bring to the discussion concerning the Bride and Body. Gracias.

 

[Solo]

Ok, ok, lets not turn this into a denominational issue please.

Solo, I asked if you had any thoughts you can bring to the discussion concerning the Bride and Body. Gracias.

The Bride is the New Jerusalem with the names of the Apostles on the 12 foundations, and the names of the 12 tribes of Israel on the 12 gates. Revelation 21

All whose names are written in the Book of Life are the bride of Christ.

The Body of Christ are those who are believers from the day of Pentecost until the return of Jesus Christ.

PS The previous post was not a denominational issue, it was a false teaching issue, and an attempt to warn those that are mixed up in such a state of affairs.

 

[BenJasher]

Well, I am pleasantly surprized and disappointed in a good kind of way.

I would have guessed that I was the only one that believed that The Bride of Christ wasn't the same as the Body of Christ. So in that I am pleasantly surprized. But I am also disappointed by the same facts. It kind of takes the fun out of being the only one who understood such a wonderful secret.