The rapture of the Church

[lecoop]

Coop

Guess we shall continue,

I guess so.... : -))

Mark 13:4 "Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign when all these things shall be fulfilled?"

This marks the subject for the entire chapter. Now Jesus is going to tell us the seven seals what will take place before His second advent.

I will agree that there are parallels between the first few seals, and the Olivet Discourse. However, most people want to start the 70th week of Daniel, or "tribulation" with the white horse. They are mistaken.

Revelation 6:2 "And I saw, and behold, a white horse: and he that sat on him had a bow; and a crown was given unto him: and he went forth conquering, and to conquer."

Deception
This is not a white ass like Jesus rode into Jerusalem, but is exactly like the white steed that Jesus would ride when He comes at the seventh trumpet, in Revelation 19:11-17. This white horse, and the one that is sitting on it is a copy, a counterfeit of the what will come later. This word for "bow" in the Greek is "toxon", which is not the same "bow" described in Revelation 4:3, God's bow was the rainbow that was "round about the throne of God". This bow that Satan will have when he comes will be a cheep imitation. Satan will come appearing to be what he is not. Satan will be coming as the "instead of Christ", in the role of the Antichrist, for he is the "son of perdition".

Many people want to associate the white horse and rider with the antichrist, or with deception. I disagree. When the timing of this horse and rider is understood (the first seal is broken moments after Jesus ascended into heaven) we see that it is impossible for this rider to be the antichrist. In fact, there is nothing at all in his discription that would even suggest deception. God has used the color white from Genesis on through Revelation, to represent righteousness. I can promise all the readers that God did not change for this one verse. John used the color white in Revelation, 16 other times, again, each time to represent righteousness. Again, I can promise the readers that John (and the Holy Spirit behind him) did not mean for the "white" in this verse to mean something different.

Therefore, the white color of this first horse represents righteousness. The horse itself represents battle, warfare, or conquering. When we put these thoughts with the timing of this white horse and rider, that is within minutes of the time Jesus ascended into heaven, having just told Mary Magdalene not to touch Him for He had not yet ascended, we see that it is about the time that Jesus told His disciples to go and make disciples of all nations. The white horse and rider then, are to represent the church of the Lord Jesus Christ, going out to conquer, for the purpose of making disciples. The conquering is done in the spiritual realm. The weapons are spiritual weapons. Satan was not just going to step aside and allow the gospel to enter his kingdom without a fight! Therefore, there would be and must be conquering involved with spreading the gospel.

Mark 13:7 "And when ye shall hear of wars and rumors of wars, be ye not troubled: for shuch things must needs be; but the end shall not be yet."

This is getting into the second seal of the book of Revelation.

Revelation 6:4 "And there went out another horse that was red: and power was given to him that sat thereon to take peace from the earth, and that they should kill one another: and there was given unto him a great sword."

The "red horse" is a war horse. The "sword" that causes this peace to be take from the earth, and given to war, is the sword of lies, remember, "Take hee that no man deceive you". The sword of Christ that proceeds from Christ is given in Revelation 1:16, and it cuts both ways. However, Satan also has a sword, and his sword [words] causes nothing but death and destruction to those that listen to it. First come the lies, then the deception, and then the war. Before any nation goes to war, its people have to be prepared for the war, and many things that are spoken to prepare the people for that conflict are pure lies. This final war appears to be one thing, when in actuality it is just the opposite. It is a spiritual war that appears to be a thing of peace, when in fact it is complete destruction of the souls of men. the battle field will be in the minds of men and women, and it will be fought with words, ideas and precepts, that are twisted from the Word of God by Satan.

This is not speaking of spiritual warfare alone, but real wars, fought with real weapons. This is speaking of wars that kill millions. It is pointing directly at WWI, WWII, the Korean War, Vietnam - in fact, all the wars since Jesus rose from the dead. It is written that Satan comes to kill, steal, and destroy. He has been behind all these wars. Undoubtedly these have had another purpose behind them: to stop the advance of the gospel.

Mark 13:8 "For nations shall rise against nation, and kingdom aganst kingdom: and there shall be earthquakes in divers places, and there shall be famines and troubles: these are the beginnings of sorrows."

This is the third seal that Jesus is given to us.

Revelation 6:5 "And when He had opened the third seal, I heard the third beast say, "come and see." And I beheld, and, lo, a black horse; and he that sat on him had a pair of balances in his hand."

This third angel of God is telling you and I to look and pay attention with understanding. These "balances" are the balances of commerce

Revelation 6:6 "And I heard a voice in the midst of the four beasts say, "A measure of wheat for a penny, and three measures of barley for a penny; and see thou hurt not the oil and the wine."

Remember that the "oil" is symbolic for "olive oil", the "oil of our people". It is symbolic for the blood of Christ. The point that is made here is that you do not hurt even one of God's elect. A penny was the scale for one days labor, and that is what you would work all day long for to get a loaf of bread. the famine is not for the bread that you eat, but the famine is for the hearing the truth from the Word of God with understanding.

This famine is what Jesus is talking about here in Mark 13:8. When you shall hear of these "famines and troubles: these are the beginnings of sorrows."

This word "sorrows" as used in the Greek are "birth pangs". These are the labor pains that come to a woman before the birth actually comes. As the birth draws closer to delivery, these pangs get closer and closer until they are virtually one on top of the other until the child finally comes. This is in reference though to the birth of a new age. That new age is the Millennium age, that starts with the return of Christ. Remember that these "birth pangs" [seals or prophecies] are the subject of this chapter, "What are the sign that we shall see before Christ's return?" So the signs of Christ's return are when the birth pangs start, when the famine or the lack of knowledge for hearing God's Word becomes common, and the masses of the people will turn to listen to false teachers and false prophets and turn to their traditions.

Mark 13:9 "But take heed to yourselves: for they shall deliver you up to councils; and in the synagogues ye shall be beaten: and ye shall be brought before rulers and kings for My sake,, for a testimony against them."

Again, I disagree. This is real famine, where people starve to death. It is satan, taking people to hell, before the gospel can reach them. Where have we seen famines in the last 100 years, where millions have starved to death? Of course, I am speaking of Africa.

So now we go into the forth seal of the end times.

Revelation 6:8 "And I looked, and behold, a pale horse: and his name that sat on him was Death, and Hell followed with him. And power was given unto them over the fourth part of the earth, to kill with sword, and with hunger, and with death, and with the beasts of the earth."

Pale horse" represents "death", and after the famine comes death. We are talking about Satan here, for that is another name of Satan, "death".

It took me a while to see it, but John makes it clear when we read his words. Satan comes to kill. Death comes to take people to hell, before they can be saved. However, we read that "them" are limited to one fourth of the earth. But who are the "them?" John tells us: the rider on the red horse with the sword, bringing war, the rider on the black horse bringing hunger and famine, and the rider named death, on the pale horse. We see then, that the Holy Spirit and John, purposely left the white horse and rider out of this list! Why? Because he represents rightousness. He represents the church taking the gospel to the nations. The other horses are trying to stop the spread of the gospel. However, God has limited them to one fourth of the earth. Of course it will be the one fourth that includes the Holy Land.

Therefore, we see that the timing of these four horses and riders, is the church age - from the gospel being preached in Jerusalem, to around the world. Did it take conquering? Oh yes! But from a hand full of people in Jerusalem, to perhaps 1/3 of the population of the planet, we see that the church has been successful! The gospel has gone around the world.

Revelation 6:9 "And when He had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:"

Revelation 6:10 "And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost Thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?"

These souls of the slain are asking the same question as the disciples had here in Mark 13. "How long to the end of this earth age?" These souls had been human beings with flesh and blood bodies, and their blood had flowed for the sake of the Word of God. They ask, "How long will it be before you destroy our enemies?"

James and Stephen were the first two to be included in this seal. Now millions have been martyred for the name of Jesus.

As you should see there are no old testament saints in the ground(grave) somewhere waiting to be raptured,they are already in Heaven,these are those that Christ brings with Him.

Sorry, I don't see it. When the graves were opened at Jesus death, I believe only "firstfruits" received their resurrection bodies. I believe the vast majority of the old testament saints are still to waithing for their supernatural bodies. If you have a verse that shows differently, please show us.

Mark 13:24 "But in those days, after that tribulation, the sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light,"

This is the sixth seal that is about to be opened

Revelation 6:12 "And I behold when He had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood."

"But in those days", the days immediately following "that tribulation", the tribulation of Satan. This is exactly what is said in both passages.

Jesus never covered the first half of the 70th week in His discourse. He jumped from the church age, straight to the midpoint of the week, to the abomination. But then, He was just giving us an outline: John fills in the details. And John (with Joel 2) shows us that the sixth seal will be before the 70th week starts.

Mark 13:26 "And then shall they see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory."

The "Son of man" is Jesus Christ the Anointed one. This is telling us that we should not expect the return of the True Christ until after the coming of the false christ, and the tribulation that Satan will bring with him.

John shows us that this event (shown in Revelation 19) will occur after the 70th week has ended. Indeed, Jesus Himself said it will be after those days of great tribulation, which will occur during the last 3 1/2 years of the 70th week. John covers the time of great triblation in the last part of chapter 12, and chapters 13 - 16.

Mark 13:27 "And then shall He send His angels, and shall gather together His elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the heaven."

Lets tie this verse in with Revelation 6:14.

Revelation 6:14 "And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places."

Sorry, but you are about 7 years off. These verses cannot be speaking of the same thing. Joel and John shows us clearly that the sixth seal comes before the 70th week. Read it:

31The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and terrible day of the LORD come.

Where in Revelation does this happen? Of course, at the sixth seal:

12And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;

Therefore, this sixth seal event must come before the "day of the Lord." Indeed it does, for the 70th week and "day of the Lord," begin with the 7th seal. The gathering together of the elect will take place as Jesus descends, in chapter 19.

It is telling us that this sixth seal is the time that the false messiah returns. Notices that it is the sixth trumpet that is also the sixth seal. When the "four winds" are mentioned, it always has to do with the consummating the end of this earth age. The four winds are the four spirits that are talked about in Revelation 7, and they close in from all directions to center on one point, and that is the end of this period of time. In Revelation 7 the four angels that control these four winds held back their coming until the sealing of all of the 144,000 was seal, and now at the sixth seal, it is time for the false messiah to come.

At the 7th seal, the antichrist does indeed come, by signing the 7 year treaty. I suspect that this treaty is what gives Israel permission to build their temple, and start the daily sacrifices again. In 3.5 years after this, the antichrist will be manifested as the antichrist, when he walks into the temple and declares that he is God. This cannot possibly be the 7th trumpet, for that is the marker for the time of the abomination, marking the exact midpoint of the week.

Coop

 

[n2thelight]

coop

I will agree that there are parallels between the first few seals, and the Olivet Discourse. However, most people want to start the 70th week of Daniel, or "tribulation" with the white horse. They are mistaken.

It's pretty clear to me that the first white horse rider is satan,he comes pretending to be Christ,how else would you expect him to appear?

II Corinthians 11:14 "And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light."

Revelation 6:2 "And I saw, and behold a white horse: and he that sat on him had a bow; and a crown was given unto him: and he went forth conquering, and to conquer."

This one who rode on the white horse had a bow, but without arrows. He had the authority, but not the strength to back up his authority. What strength that he did have, was through deception. The rider of the white horse is Satan, in the role of the Antichrist. Satan will come first as the fake Christ, the Antichrist; and he will ride and conquer the people of the entire earth.

The rider of this white horse is not the rider of the white horse who comes with a rainbow around his head, and a rainbow around the throne he leaves. This "bow" in the Greek is a cheap fabric, or imitation, In the Greek it's called "toxon".

bow" - 5115 toxon (tox'-on); from the base of 5088; a bow (apparently as the simplest fabric): KJV-- bow.

This is not speaking of spiritual warfare alone, but real wars, fought with real weapons. This is speaking of wars that kill millions. It is pointing directly at WWI, WWII, the Korean War, Vietnam - in fact, all the wars since Jesus rose from the dead. It is written that Satan comes to kill, steal, and destroy. He has been behind all these wars. Undoubtedly these have had another purpose behind them: to stop the advance of the gospel.

As long as there are wars going on Christ will not return,His return will be when the world is at peace allbeit a false peace this is why this is more so spiritul warfare

I Thessalonians 5:3 "For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape."

Christ said He would return at a time when you thought not,to me that would be a time when you thought He was already here

Luke 12:40 "Be ye therefore ready also: for the Son of man cometh at an hour when ye think not."

Again, I disagree. This is real famine, where people starve to death. It is satan, taking people to hell, before the gospel can reach them. Where have we seen famines in the last 100 years, where millions have starved to death? Of course, I am speaking of Africa.

There are famines going on now, and it is for food but the famine in the end time will not be,and is going on now

Amos 8:11 "Behold, the days come, saith the Lord God, that I will send a famine in the land, not a famine of bread, nor a thirst for water, but of hearing the words of the Lord:"

Sorry, I don't see it. When the graves were opened at Jesus death, I believe only "firstfruits" received their resurrection bodies. I believe the vast majority of the old testament saints are still to waithing for their supernatural bodies. If you have a verse that shows differently, please show us.

Not only is there no old testament saints in the grave,but nobody is in the grave,because once a person dies they return to the Father

II Corinthians 5:8 "We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord."

Paul is saying here that we are not afraid to face death, because when we pass from this flesh body we then will be, or are instantly present with the Lord.

Ecclesiastes 12:6 "Or ever the silver cord be loosed, or the golden bowl be broken, or the pitcher be broken at the fountain, or the wheel broken at the cistern."

The "cistern" is the clay flesh body that our soul lives in. The cistern is built to hold the water or life that is within the flesh body, but once that bowl is broken the water or life leaks out of it, just as water leaks out of this flesh body. The "silver cord" is what holds your soul and the spirit together with the flesh body. We can call it the process of thought, which is the intellect of the mind, or soul.
When that silver cord parts, and the heavenly Father allows it to happen, and this flesh body becomes biologically dead, the very inner man departs for this physical body, and returns to the Father. This decaying body will never be used again, ever. For the soul has entered into its new incorruptible body.

Ecclesiastes 12:7 "Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God Who gave it."

Can't get any simplier than that

The spirit is the intellect of the soul, that gives the soul its identity. This is not complicated. When the body dies, and goes to the grave, the physical body will never have a use again, for the soul has returned to the Father, to God who created it in the first place. Because this is a promise of God, it should be what all Christians look forward to all the days of their lives. That is the day that we will be with the Father and Jesus Christ is heaven, not at some distant time in the future

God creates the flesh body for your soul to occupy, and He places your spirit within your soul. That is what gives your soul its identity. Then just as God gave it for a brief time, He will take your soul back to Himself, when the flesh body stops having life.

John shows us that this event (shown in Revelation 19) will occur after the 70th week has ended. Indeed, Jesus Himself said it will be after those days of great tribulation, which will occur during the last 3 1/2 years of the 70th week. John covers the time of great triblation in the last part of chapter 12, and chapters 13 - 16.

Why are you contradicting youself?You just stated that Christ will not return until after the trib(which is true)so my question how do you think you all will be gone and not go through this?(tribulation)

The anti christ is satan himself not somebody possessed

Let me show you when satan arrives on his white horse

Revelation 12:7 "And there was war in heaven: Mi'-cha-el and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,,"

Revelation 12:8 "And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven."

Revelation 12:9 "And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Sa'-tan, which deceived the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him."

Revelation 12:12 "Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time."

This even takes us to thessolonians where many think that it is the Church that is taken out when its not.

II Thessalonians 2:7 "For the mystery of iniquity [lawlessness] doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way."

The "mystery of lawlessness" is the mystery of iniquity. "He who now letteth will let"; in the Greek should be translated; "He who holds fast [ketcho] will stand." The ellipsis, or "omission from an expression of a word clearly implied"; "There is one who hold's fast", instead of by repeating the verb, "will let". However, "katecho" is a transitive verb, and an object must be supplied also. So if the subject in verse six is Satan, then the object must be his position in the heavenlies [see Ephesians 6:12], from which he will be ejected from heaven by Michael [Revelation 12:7-9].

"Out of the way", in the Greek is "out of ek", or "the midst". It is the same expression used in Acts 17:33, and I Corinthians 5:2.

Many "rapture theorists" claim this one who "letteth" is the Holy Spirit, and they claim that when He is "taken away", then the Antichrist will come. By reversing the role of the characters in the verses here, and attributing what is Satan's to the Holy Spirit, you have a whole new doctrine called the "Any moment doctrine". This false doctrine is better known as the "rapture theory". It is dangerous to play around with a foreign language; and when the flock relies upon their shepherd for the truth, and the shepherd is assumed to be correct; in ignorance it is accepted just because he said it.

It is Michael who "holds fast" on to Lucifer [the Antichrist], and Michael will continue to keep Lucifer held until the appointed time, spoken of above. That time is appointed by God. Then at the appointed time God will give Satan the keys [authority] to release his fallen angels and they will be cast to the earth

There is only one last trump and that is the 7th it can't be more than one,last

 

[Vic C.]

Sidebar:

II Corinthians 5:8 "We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord."

Paul is saying here that we are not afraid to face death, because when we pass from this flesh body we then will be, or are instantly present with the Lord.

I know what mainstream teachers teach on this, but a simple and proper reading of this passage does not tell us it is "instantly ". That's conjecture. Sorry. :-? It also negates the resurrection(s).

There is only one last trump and that is the 7th it can't be more than one,last

Yes there is! They are probably not the same trumps. One is angelic; the other is blown by God Himself.

There is one God blown trumpet after the "last Trump"; last is a misnomer or at least not defined as we modern day, English speakers understand it. It's the last trump before He blows the Great Trump, which was at Yom Kippur. The Last Trump was blown at Rosh HaShanah. some 10 days earlier.

You are reading modern day understandings into things that were written to a Hebrew, 1st. century audience.

 

[lecoop]

Onelove said,

Not only is there no old testament saints in the grave,but nobody is in the grave,because once a person dies they return to the Father

II Corinthians 5:8 "We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord."

Paul is saying here that we are not afraid to face death, because when we pass from this flesh body we then will be, or are instantly present with the Lord.

Ecclesiastes 12:6 "Or ever the silver cord be loosed, or the golden bowl be broken, or the pitcher be broken at the fountain, or the wheel broken at the cistern."

The "cistern" is the clay flesh body that our soul lives in. The cistern is built to hold the water or life that is within the flesh body, but once that bowl is broken the water or life leaks out of it, just as water leaks out of this flesh body. The "silver cord" is what holds your soul and the spirit together with the flesh body. We can call it the process of thought, which is the intellect of the mind, or soul.
When that silver cord parts, and the heavenly Father allows it to happen, and this flesh body becomes biologically dead, the very inner man departs for this physical body, and returns to the Father. This decaying body will never be used again, ever. For the soul has entered into its new incorruptible body.

I will agree that neither the spirit nor the soul of anyone dead is in the grave where the body is buried. Neither are they in "soul sleep," as some teach. However, the dead body is in the grave, until it turns to dust. But even as dust, the same molecules are there. Will this decaying or decayed body never be used again? What does the scriptures say?

1 Cor. 15
52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.

Since neither the spirit nor the soul is "corruptable," this is speaking of the body. Notice, it says, " the dead shall be raised..." Why use the word, "raised?" Because when put in the ground, they are put "down." Does the spirit or soul of a man every "die?" No, only the flesh body dies. But Paul says, "the DEAD shall be raised." Therefore, again, Paul is speaking of the flesh body, whether or not it has turned to dust. Next, Paul says that "this corruptible must put on incorruption." AGain, Paul is speaking of the flesh body that corrupts in the grave. That same body must put on incorruption. That is why Paul says they "raise." They Paul uses the word "mortal." only our flesh body is mortal, and must be changed.

1 Thes 4
16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

If those dead in Christ are returning with Jesus, and they certainly will be, and if they already possess their resurrection body, why does Paul bother to say that the dead in Christ shall "rise?" Of course it is because God will change their decayed body into a new resurrection body, and they (their inner man) will once again be joined with their now spiritual flesh and bone body.

John 5:28
Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,

Matthew 27
52 And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose,
53 And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.

If the dead bodies were not longer to be used, why did the come out of their graves?

Paul teaches us that our bodies are "sown" as we sow a grain of wheat, and will rise to become a new kind of body. The "graves" will once again be opened. Those dead in Christ (those that have separated from their now decaying body) will rise, meaning that it is their BODY that will rise, while the inner man will descend from heaven with Jesus.

Romans 6:5
For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:

1 Corinthians 15:42
So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption:


"Planted" and "sown" means put in the ground, as in a grave. Just like Jesus, our same body we have now, will "rise" from the grave. It will be changed into a celestial body.

Next, we read that When Thomas felt of Jesus body, the one that died and was put in the grave, he felt the holes of the nails - because it was the same body, just changed. Remember, neither Mary nor Peter and John saw Jesus' body. Why? Because it was "raised!"

Coop

 

[lecoop]

Onelove wrote,

It's pretty clear to me that the first white horse rider is satan,he comes pretending to be Christ,how else would you expect him to appear?

II Corinthians 11:14 "And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light."

Revelation 6:2 "And I saw, and behold a white horse: and he that sat on him had a bow; and a crown was given unto him: and he went forth conquering, and to conquer."

This one who rode on the white horse had a bow, but without arrows. He had the authority, but not the strength to back up his authority. What strength that he did have, was through deception. The rider of the white horse is Satan, in the role of the Antichrist. Satan will come first as the fake Christ, the Antichrist; and he will ride and conquer the people of the entire earth.

The rider of this white horse is not the rider of the white horse who comes with a rainbow around his head, and a rainbow around the throne he leaves. This "bow" in the Greek is a cheap fabric, or imitation, In the Greek it's called "toxon".

bow" - 5115 toxon (tox'-on); from the base of 5088; a bow (apparently as the simplest fabric): KJV-- bow.

There is little doubt that Mr Strong misses it here as "fabric." He wrote: "5115. toxon (tox'-on). 5116. From the base of tikto; a bow (apparently as the simplest fabric) bow."

Yet when we research the word "toxon" we find something much different.

Toxiphobia is obviously a fear of being poisoned (from Greek toxon, a bow, which has given us toxophily for the sport of archery
http://www.worldwidewords.org/articles/phobias.htm

Toxin comes from the Greek toxon, meaning bow because arrows were often poisoned with what the Greeks called toxicon pharmakon or poison of the bow.
http://www.tribuneindia.com/2001/200101 ... /roots.htm

Pliny (xvi. 20) tells us this word is derived from taxa, a species of bay-tree used for poisoning arrows. Hence the Greek toxon (a bow and arrows), and toxicon (rank poison).
Cobham Brewer 1810–1897. Dictionary of Phrase and Fable. 1898.

There are hundreds more such entries. Therefore, I conclude that Strong simply missed it on this definition. It is the only place in scripture that this word is used.

Therefore, it seems MUCH more likely that the intent of the author was that this rider held a bow, as a bow to shoot arrows. However, since no arrows were mentioned, the bow could represent spiritual warfare, fought with spiritual weapons.

ONelove says that It's pretty clear to him that the first white horse rider is satan. Yet when God revealed satan to John, God revealed him as a fiery red dragon! It is pretty clear to me, that this white horse and rider are mean to represent the church.

First, what does the white represent? John used with 16 other times. What did he mean to represent there?

Rev 1:14 "His head and his hairs were white like wool, as white as snow"
Rev 2:17 "To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the hidden manna, and will give him a white stone, and in the stone a new name written, which no man knoweth saving he that receiveth it."

Revelation 3:4 Thou hast a few names even in Sardis which have not defiled their garments; and they shall walk with me in white: for they are worthy.

Revelation 3:5 "He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment..."

Revelation 3:18 "I counsel thee to buy of me gold tried in the fire, that thou mayest be rich; and white raiment, that thou mayest be clothed..."

Revelation 4:4
And round about the throne were four and twenty seats: and upon the seats I saw four and twenty elders sitting, clothed in white raiment; and they had on their heads crowns of gold.

Sixteen verses, just in Revelation, all using "white" to represent righteousness. Neither John nor the Holy Spirit would change this for one verse.

What about the horse? God has used horses to represent warfare.

Psalm 20:7
Some trust in chariots, and some in horses: but we will remember the name of the LORD our God.

Isaiah 31:1
Woe to them that go down to Egypt for help; and stay on horses, and trust in chariots, because they are many; and in horsemen, because they are very strong;

Jeremiah 4:13
Behold, he shall come up as clouds, and his chariots shall be as a whirlwind: his horses are swifter than eagles. Woe unto us! for we are spoiled.

Jeremiah 6:23
They shall lay hold on bow and spear; they are cruel, and have no mercy; their voice roareth like the sea; and they ride upon horses, set in array as men for war against thee, O daughter of Zion.

Jeremiah 12:5
If thou hast run with the footmen, and they have wearied thee, then how canst thou contend with horses?

Hosea 1:7
But I will have mercy upon the house of Judah, and will save them by the LORD their God, and will not save them by bow, nor by sword, nor by battle, by horses, nor by horsemen.

Joel 2:4
The appearance of them is as the appearance of horses; and as horsemen, so shall they run.

Amos 2:15
Neither shall he stand that handleth the bow; and he that is swift of foot shall not deliver himself: neither shall he that rideth the horse deliver himself.

Therefore, we can conclude that the intent of the author was to show us a battle, as in conquering, and a righteous battle, represented by white. John goes on to say that he goes out conquering. Does this sound like a failure? Not at all. It sounds more like victory!

Next, we must take the context and see what the context tells us about when this seal was broken. A careful reading of the context shows us that the first seals were broken very soon, like within minutes of Jesus arriving in heaven after ascending. This is about 2000 years too soon to be the "antichrist." But it is just in time for the church. Jesus commanded them to go and make disciples of all nations. However, "the nations" were owned by Satan. The church would have to conquer to make disciples. Indeed, the church has, and the gospel has gone around the world.

In truth, there is not one word in the discription of the first seal, that would give us ANY idea of the antichrist.

Coop

 

[lecoop]

Onelove wrote,

Why are you contradicting youself?You just stated that Christ will not return until after the trib(which is true)so my question how do you think you all will be gone and not go through this?(tribulation)

The anti christ is satan himself not somebody possessed

I have not contridicted myself. Jesus does indeed come on the white horse, shown to us in chapter 19, "Immediately after the tribulation of those days." This is not a contridiction. However, Jesus also comes to meet us in the air, about 7 years before this event shown to us in Rev. 19. The 70th week will be a 7 year period, or two periods of 1260 days. It will start with the 7th seal. Yet John saw the church in heaven, before the 7th seal. How did they get there? Of course, by way of the rapture: "the dead in Christ shall rise first...then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up....in the air.

Coop

 

[n2thelight]

Vic

I know what mainstream teachers teach on this, but a simple and proper reading of this passage does not tell us it is "instantly ". That's conjecture. Sorry. It also negates the resurrection(s).

Ok,granted it dos'nt say instantly,but taken with these passages from Ecclesiasted,you can see that it is indeed instantly

Ecclesiastes 12:6 "Or ever the silver cord be loosed, or the golden bowl be broken, or the pitcher be broken at the fountain, or the wheel broken at the cistern."

Ecclesiastes 12:7 "Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God Who gave it."

Then when? After the silver cord breaks, the mind is brain dead, and the body loses its life. Then shall the body "dust" return to the earth as it was, before it was formed into food, and entered your mouth as food to make your flesh body healthy.

The spirit is the intellect of the soul, that gives the soul its identity. This is not complicated. When the body dies, and goes to the grave, the physical body will never have a use again, for the soul has returned to the Father, to God who created it in the first place.

As far as the trump, last still means last to me,and the fact remains the 7th is the last

You are reading modern day understandings into things that were written to a Hebrew, 1st. century audience

.

You speak as though the Old Testament has no barring on us today,that could'nt be further from the truth as Christ Himself quoted the Old Testament on many occassions.

 

[n2thelight]

coop

 

[n2thelight]

coop

...........But even as dust, the same molecules are there. Will this decaying or decayed body never be used again? What does the scriptures say?

No!this body(flesh)will never be used again,why will we need it,and futher more we did'nt need it when we were first created nor will we need it when we return back to how we were.And another thing flesh and blood cannot inherit that kingdom

I Corinthians 15:53 "For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality."

"Mortal must put on immortality" applies only to the soul, for all flesh will be gone at death, or at the sounding of the seventh trumpet. So immortality applies only to the soul body, and even in the incorruptible body the sting of death of that soul is still on it if that soul has not received eternal life. Immortality for the soul in the Millennium age is only for those souls that have eternal life, and did not worship Satan, and take on his name, and the number of the beast.

Let me ask you a question,that might help me understand your position

Where were you before you being placed in your mothers womb,what Im trying to say is do you believe you came into exsistance at that moment?

What kind of body do you think Christ had(while in Heaven) before He was born of woman?

 

[n2thelight]

coop

Two bodies

I Corinthians 15:44 "It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body."

There is a natural body, which is your flesh body, and there is also a spiritual or soul body. The two are different and when the natural body, or flesh body dies the spiritual body is "raised", or in the Greek text "egiro, awakened, become active from its death". You have two bodies, one natural body contains your spiritual body, and that spiritual body is awakened to a new life, when the flesh or natural body dies and releases your soul. Your spirit and your soul are together, for the spirit is your "self", "the intellect of your soul" which houses your spirit within you.

Your spirit never leaves your soul, even at the death of your flesh body. Satan does not have any power over your spiritual body, but only your flesh body. Man and Satan can tare this flesh body to peaces and cause you to do all sorts of things, but no-one can damage your soul, not man, not Satan nor the angels. God is the only one that can destroy the soul and that comes at the end of the Millennium age, following judgment. However through deception Satan can cause you to sin against God, and thus be in trouble before the Almighty God. But that is why we have repentance in the name of Jesus to become right-standing before the Father again.

It just can't be made any clearer than Paul has made it here. You have two bodies, the flesh and the spiritual bodies. When the flesh body dies, then the spiritual body is awakened and come alive within itself. It starts to live a life without the baggage of the flesh body confining it to the limits of the flesh.

 

[n2thelight]

Coop

As we both stated in earlier post,you and I will not see eye to eye on this subject,with that said here is my conclusion on the matter

The Second Advent of our Messiah Jesus Christ is in fact Biblically sound Doctrine, it will happen! However, the Rapture theory fabricates a pre-Second Advent advent, which is not in the Bible. In essence, what they have done is that they have made three advents out of the true two Advents of Jesus Christ as found in among other places, {Zech 9:9+10}. It is a falsehood created by man and added to God's Word.

The Rapture 'doctors' (those who create, fabricate, and perpetuate the many different Rapture theories) have searched the Bible over and have found a finite number of Scriptures that they were able to pull violently out of context, twist and mould, reshape and join unnaturally one to the other until they have formed a new product, a new doctrine, seemingly supported by Biblical Scripture, but in reality nothing more than satan's 'house of cards,' built on a foundation of sand, a perversion of God's true end-time plan.

There are many variations of the Rapture theory. There is a Pre-millennial, an a-millennial, and a post-millennial Rapture theory. And then within the pre-millennial theory you have four further divisions: pre-tribulation, mid-tribulation, post-tribulation, and the two-stage Rapture. The very fact that they all can't even agree on when their Rapture will happen should raise a warning beacon to all intelligent Christians; As it is written: "For God is not the author of confusion, but of peace, as in all churches of the saints." {1 Cor 14:33}.

1Thes 5:1-4
1 But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you.
2 For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.
3 For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.
4 But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief. (KJV)

It says that that day won't overtake us as a thief in the night (unexpectedly), it does NOT say that that day will not overtake us at all! Why would God warn us, whom "are not in darkness" and whom "For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night" to be careful of Christ's return if we "brethren" are to already have been Raptured out before it happened? And if we are gone prior to the Second Advent then how could it be possible "that that day should overtake you as a thief"??? This Scripture is not written to un-saved sinners or to satan worshippers, or to Muslims, or to Hindus..., it is written to God's servants, brethren of Apostle Paul in Christianity. Why would God warn us if we weren't going to be here for the event?

Who will do God's work on the earth in the end times if all the believers are gone ?

Eph 6:10-18
10 Finally, my brethren, be strong in the Lord, and in the power of his might.
11 Put on the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to stand against the wiles of the devil.

The devil is satan. Satan's end-time role is that of the antichrist. Paul is giving us God's warning that we will face the antichrist (devil, satan) in these end-times. God supplies armor for His Election in the final days, we are to put it on, the WHOLE armor of God, all of it. Why would God's Elect need armor if He was going to extract them (Rapture) before the battle with the adversary begins?

12 For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places.
13 Wherefore take unto you the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to withstand in the evil day, and having done all, to stand.

Once again, we see that those with the Gospel armor of God will be on the earth on that "evil day" when satan as the antichrist comes to earth. Those with the armor (God's Election) are told to "stand." Stand against what if they were to be Raptured out before the Great Tribulation of the antichrist on earth claiming to be the Messiah?

A chronology of events leading up to end of the age:

Satan, as antichrist, will be given power from God to deceive most of the world*1. But it is written that some will stand against satan and not bow a knee to the antichrist*2. These are known as the Election Of Grace, spoken of as the 7000*3. Satan, by means identified in scripture, will locate and seize God's Election, who are men and women who reject satan as the false christ and refuse to bow to him*4. Satan will deliver some of these Elect up to 'Sanhedrins' (synagogues and councils) to attempt to "convert" them and make them worship the antichrist as True Messiah*5. But they will not. In fact it is through the Elect's testimony at these councils (that will no doubt be carried live on satellite, to the whole world), that the 144,000, known as the "Sealed Of Israel", written of Scripture*6, will become aware of the true identity of the antichrist and resist, refusing to worship him as True Messiah.

Scriptural documentation for above points:

1 {Lk 21:12-15}, {Rev 9:1-11}, {Mk 24:4-15}.
2 {Mk 13:9-11}, {Mt 24:9-13}, {Lk 21:12-15}, {Dan 11:44}.
3 {1st King 19:18}, {Rom 11:1-5}.
4 {Lk 21:16}, {Mk 13:12}, {Mt 24:10}.
5 {LK 12:11}, {Mk 13:9}, {Mt 24:9}.
6 {Rev 7:1-10}.

At this point, the end is very near. The "Two Witnesses", who have been sent earlier from God to lead His Elect in resisting the antichrist, and whom are spoken of in {Rev 11:3-19; are murdered by antichrist and his misguided followers. Their dead bodies are left to rot in the street in public view.

God's Elect shall be on the earth during the Great Tribulation, there will be no "Rapture of the righteous!" What did Jesus mean when He said: "Behold, I have told you before."? {Mat 24:25}. He was telling us about the false messiah, the spurious messiah, the antichrist whom is satan that shall come to this earth claiming to be the true Messiah. Many on the earth who are waiting for a 'Rapture of the Saints' before the Second Advent will believe that the antichrist truly is the Messiah Jesus Christ. That is the danger in the Rapture theories (among the other false church systems, dogmas, and doctrines of men), they don't warn the people that there are two saviors coming, first, the false savior antichrist, then after him, the True Savior Messiah Jesus Christ comes at His Second Advent. Hence Jesus mused: "...Nevertheless when the Son of man cometh, shall he find faith on the earth?" {Luke 18:8}. Will He?!? Will he find you being faithful or worshipping satan the antichrist, waiting in line to be Raptured somewhere?

 

[lecoop]

Vic

I know what mainstream teachers teach on this, but a simple and proper reading of this passage does not tell us it is "instantly ". That's conjecture. Sorry. It also negates the resurrection(s).

Ok,granted it dos'nt say instantly,but taken with these passages from Ecclesiasted,you can see that it is indeed instantly

Ecclesiastes 12:6 "Or ever the silver cord be loosed, or the golden bowl be broken, or the pitcher be broken at the fountain, or the wheel broken at the cistern."

Ecclesiastes 12:7 "Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God Who gave it."

Then when? After the silver cord breaks, the mind is brain dead, and the body loses its life. Then shall the body "dust" return to the earth as it was, before it was formed into food, and entered your mouth as food to make your flesh body healthy.

The spirit is the intellect of the soul, that gives the soul its identity. This is not complicated. When the body dies, and goes to the grave, the physical body will never have a use again, for the soul has returned to the Father, to God who created it in the first place.

As far as the trump, last still means last to me,and the fact remains the 7th is the last


[quote:87cc7]You are reading modern day understandings into things that were written to a Hebrew, 1st. century audience

.

You speak as though the Old Testament has no barring on us today,that could'nt be further from the truth as Christ Himself quoted the Old Testament on many occassions.[/quote:87cc7]

This answer will be for the readers, as it seems onelove has his mind made up on this subject.

What is the spirit of a human being, versus the soul? Let's let the word of God tell us.

James 2:26
For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

James tells us that it is not some "silver cord" that determines life or death: it is the human spirit. I have a good friend that died on the table in the hospital, and left her body. She could see her relatives, grieving, and the doctors working hard to bring her back, and she was screaming at them (loudly: trying to get them to respond to her) "I'm ok!" "listen to me; listen to me!" But they could not hear her. Then she started to ascend, but someone prayed, and she went back into her body, still screaming, "listen to me!" As soon as she entered her body again, they heard her scream "listen to me," and they said, "we are listening. What?" And she said, I'm OK." The point is, she was cognizant both in and out of her body. She could both think and speak, outside her body. That was her spirit person, the real her.

Matthew 14:26
And when the disciples saw him walking on the sea, they were troubled, saying, It is a spirit; and they cried out for fear

Mark 6:49
But when they saw him walking upon the sea, they supposed it had been a spirit, and cried out:

Notice that they thought is was a spirit, not a "soul." Evil spirits are spirit beings also, apparently from some being that existed a long time ago:

Luke 4:33
And in the synagogue there was a man, which had a spirit of an unclean devil, and cried out with a loud voice,

It seems then, that the enduring part of a being is the spirit.

Mark 1:26
And when the unclean spirit had torn him, and cried with a loud voice, he came out of him.

Mark 9:26
And the spirit cried, and rent him sore, and came out of him: and he was as one dead; insomuch that many said, He is dead.


Demons are spirit beings.

Mark 2:8
And immediately when Jesus perceived in his spirit that they so reasoned within themselves, he said unto them, Why reason ye these things in your hearts?

When Jesus was on the earth, he had a physical body, but inside that body was a spirit being. Here, Jesus preceived in His spirit. Therefore, the human spirit has the capacity to preceive or understand things.

Mark 14:38
Watch ye and pray, lest ye enter into temptation. The spirit truly is ready, but the flesh is weak.

Here, the human spirit is opposed to the flesh. Our flesh is weak, and able to be temped at all times. But our spirit man, where the Holy Spirit dwells, is ready to follow God.

Acts 7:59
And they stoned Stephen, calling upon God, and saying, Lord Jesus, receive my spirit.

What part of Stephen went to heaven? Of course, it was his spirit man - the real him. His body was buried - but he, the real person, a spirit being, went to heaven.

Acts 19:15
And the evil spirit answered and said, Jesus I know, and Paul I know; but who are ye?

Spirit beings can speak: here it is a demon spirit speaking.

Romans 2:29
But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.

When the New Testament speaks of the inward man, it is speaking of the spirit man living inside the physical body. Many times this sprit man is called the "heart."

Romans 8:10
And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.
Romans 8:16
The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:

God comes to live in our spirit man. It is in our spirit man where the life of God dwells.

1 Corinthians 2:11
For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God.

Here again, God tells us that our spirit lives inside our physical body.

1 Corinthians 5:5
To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.

What part of a man is "saved?" Of course, it is the inward man, or the spirit man.

1 Corinthians 6:20
For ye are bought with a price: therefore glorify God in your body, and in your spirit, which are God's.

Our spirit man can glorify God.

Corinthians 14:14
For if I pray in an unknown tongue, my spirit prayeth, but my understanding is unfruitful.

Our spirit man can pray. In fact, what Paul is telling us, is that when we pray in tongues, it is our spirit man praying.

2 Corinthians 2:13
I had no rest in my spirit, because I found not Titus my brother: but taking my leave of them, I went from thence into Macedonia.

The spirit of a man, or the inward man, can be troubled.

2 Corinthians 3:17
Now the Lord is that Spirit: and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty.

God is a spirit being - so it only makes sense, if we are created in His image, that we also are created as a spirit being. We just live in a physical body for a while.


Galatians 5:17
For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would.

Our physical body is in a continual war against the inward man, or our spirit man. Why? Because God dwells in our spirit, but our physical body is still very much unsaved.

1 Thessalonians 5:23
And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.

Here Paul differentiates between the body, spirit and soul. Now we see that we not only are created as a spiritual being, but we have a soul.


Hebrews 4:12
For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.

Here Paul tells us that it is VERY difficult to divide the soul and the spirit: only the word of God can do that. Notice that Paul mentions the "thoughts and intents of the heart..." We have seen that our spirit man is the "heart" of man. Therefore, the spirit of a man has thoughts and desires or intents.

1 Peter 3:4
But let it be the hidden man of the heart, in that which is not corruptible, even the ornament of a meek and quiet spirit, which is in the sight of God of great price.

Peter tells us that our spirit man can be meek and quiet. Therefore, it seems that the human spirit could also be just the opposite.

1 John 4:2
Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God:

John tells us that it is our spirit man that must confess Jesus. However, our inward man uses the flesh to do the confessing. But this is telling us that a man could confess with the mouth, but not have the spirit inside agreeing with the mouth. Paul tells us that we must believe with the heart (the spirit man inside) and confess with the mouth. Therefore, Paul and John are in agreement.

1Pe 3:19 By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison

Notice that Jesus did not go and preach to the souls - no - He preached to the spirits. Therefore, the inward man is the spirit man. The spirit man posseses a soul. The soul of the spirit man is tied very tightly to the spirit, so that only the word of God can divide the two. The soul then, is the mind, will, emotions and affections of the human spirit. When our spirit man leaves our body, we can think, reason, and remember, just as we did inside the fleshly body.

Luke 16:25
But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented.

Notice that after death, Abraham could reason and think, and the rich man also could reason and remember. Both Abraham's fleshly body, as well as the rich man's, was in the grave, but they could still reason, speak and remember.

Therefore, the human being was and is created as a spirit being, possessing a soul (mind, will, emotions, etc). However, on the earth, we dwell temporarily in a flesh and blood body. When the body dies, the spirit with the soul slips out, and keeps right on living, thinking and being.

Cooper.

 

[lecoop]

This answer will be for the readers, since onelove has already stated that this is his "conclusion."

Coop

As we both stated in earlier post,you and I will not see eye to eye on this subject,with that said here is my conclusion on the matter

The Second Advent of our Messiah Jesus Christ is in fact Biblically sound Doctrine, it will happen! However, the Rapture theory fabricates a pre-Second Advent advent, which is not in the Bible. In essence, what they have done is that they have made three advents out of the true two Advents of Jesus Christ as found in among other places, {Zech 9:9+10}. It is a falsehood created by man and added to God's Word.

The rapture (1 Thes 4:17) is in the word, just as much as His second coming Rev 19:11) is in the word.

The Rapture 'doctors' (those who create, fabricate, and perpetuate the many different Rapture theories) have searched the Bible over and have found a finite number of Scriptures that they were able to pull violently out of context, twist and mould, reshape and join unnaturally one to the other until they have formed a new product, a new doctrine, seemingly supported by Biblical Scripture, but in reality nothing more than satan's 'house of cards,' built on a foundation of sand, a perversion of God's true end-time plan.

It is interesting: those that believe in a pretrib rapture, say the same thing about those that believe in a post-trib rapture, or no rapture at all. Do pretrib believers pull scriptures out of context? Only in the mind of mid, post, or prewrath believers. In other words, it works both ways. For the readers, everyone must make up their own mind: what did Paul mean when he wrote that we are to be "saved from wrath," and "delivered us from the wrath to come." What did John see when he wrote of the great crowd, too large to number, already in heaven before the 70th week even started? (Rev 7) I believe He saw the raptured church. I believe Paul tells us that we are delivered from the wrath, because we won't be here; we will have been caught up into the air, and taken to heaven (John 14). What does the mail man do with the mail? He "delivers" it: he takes it from one location and "delivers" it to another. Those caught up in the rapture will be delivered from this earth, to the heavenly planet, and will be "delivered" from His wrath.

There are many variations of the Rapture theory. There is a Pre-millennial, an a-millennial, and a post-millennial Rapture theory. And then within the pre-millennial theory you have four further divisions: pre-tribulation, mid-tribulation, post-tribulation, and the two-stage Rapture. The very fact that they all can't even agree on when their Rapture will happen should raise a warning beacon to all intelligent Christians; As it is written: "For God is not the author of confusion, but of peace, as in all churches of the saints." {1 Cor 14:33}.

And yet the church cannot agree on water baptism - yet we find it in the word of God. The church cannot agree on the mighty "baptism with the Holy Spirit" - yet we find it in the word of God. When the rapture of the church takes place - then all will agree on the "when."

1Thes 5:1-4
1 But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you.
2 For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.
3 For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.
4 But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief. (KJV)

It says that that day won't overtake us as a thief in the night (unexpectedly), it does NOT say that that day will not overtake us at all! Why would God warn us, whom "are not in darkness" and whom "For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night" to be careful of Christ's return if we "brethren" are to already have been Raptured out before it happened? And if we are gone prior to the Second Advent then how could it be possible "that that day should overtake you as a thief"??? This Scripture is not written to un-saved sinners or to satan worshippers, or to Muslims, or to Hindus..., it is written to God's servants, brethren of Apostle Paul in Christianity. Why would God warn us if we weren't going to be here for the event?

Paul is careful to differentiate between "ye" and "they." There is no doubt that the day of the Lord will come suddenly. However, what will be the beginning or the first event of the day of the Lord? Notice what John wrote:

Rev 6
12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;
13 And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.
14 And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.
15 And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;
16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:
17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?

Please notice what happens first, at the sixth seal: it is the great earthquake. Therefore, from Paul's writing, there is "Peace and safety" until a "suddenly" happens: this tremendous earthquake, that shakes the entire planet. Now notice what the bible has mentioned with earthquakes:

Matt. 27
51 And, behold, the veil of the temple was rent in twain from the top to the bottom; and the earth did quake, and the rocks rent;
52 And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose,

Notice that at the moment that "many bodies of the saints which slept" (had died) arose from the dead, it caused an earthquake for God to put the dead bodies back together again. Undoubtedly, many of these saints had been dead for thousands of years.

Therefore, it is extremely likely that the rapture of the church will take place at this mighty earthquake at the 6th seal. (John sees the raptured church in heaven, very soon after this.)Notice "sudden destruction cometh upon them," because they will be facing the day of the Lord. But what of the saints? That day will not surprise us as a sudden event, like a thief in the night, because we will be "looking for that blessed hope," the rapture. Will the rapture surprise us? No, we will hear the trumpet, and know immediately what is happening. This is what Paul is saying.
"That day should overtake you as a thief," because "that day" starts with the rapture of the church! And we are looking for and expecting that day to come.

Who will do God's work on the earth in the end times if all the believers are gone ?

Why does someone expect that God has work that must be done? Why must we expect something outside of what is written? That is purely man's reasoning. The 144,000 will be on earth during the first 3 1/2 years, and the two witnesses will be testifying during the second 3 1/2 years. Outside of this, what more do we need to know? This is what God has told us.

The devil is satan. Satan's end-time role is that of the antichrist. Paul is giving us God's warning that we will face the antichrist (devil, satan) in these end-times. God supplies armor for His Election in the final days, we are to put it on, the WHOLE armor of God, all of it. Why would God's Elect need armor if He was going to extract them (Rapture) before the battle with the adversary begins?

For the readers, please read these verses carefully:

Revelation 19:20
And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.

Revelation 20
1 And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand.
2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,

Revelation 20:10
And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

Anyone that reads these verses without preconceived glasses on, can readily see that the antichrist beast is a separate being from Satan or the devil. They are cast into the lake of fire at two different times.

Once again, we see that those with the Gospel armor of God will be on the earth on that "evil day" when satan as the antichrist comes to earth. Those with the armor (God's Election) are told to "stand." Stand against what if they were to be Raptured out before the Great Tribulation of the antichrist on earth claiming to be the Messiah?

Paul was writing to Christians in his day. They had to stand against the devil then, as we do now.

A chronology of events leading up to end of the age:

Satan, as antichrist, will be given power from God to deceive most of the world*1. But it is written that some will stand against satan and not bow a knee to the antichrist*2. These are known as the Election Of Grace, spoken of as the 7000*3. Satan, by means identified in scripture, will locate and seize God's Election, who are men and women who reject satan as the false christ and refuse to bow to him*4. Satan will deliver some of these Elect up to 'Sanhedrins' (synagogues and councils) to attempt to "convert" them and make them worship the antichrist as True Messiah*5. But they will not. In fact it is through the Elect's testimony at these councils (that will no doubt be carried live on satellite, to the whole world), that the 144,000, known as the "Sealed Of Israel", written of Scripture*6, will become aware of the true identity of the antichrist and resist, refusing to worship him as True Messiah.

Both Paul and John show us that the rapture will come as the thief in the night, suddenly and without warning, taking the saints to heaven and delivering us from His wrath. Then, and only then, as Paul said, can the man of sin be revealed. He cannot be revealed until the one restraining him is "taken out of the way." And the church will indeed be "taken out of the way," as we are taken to heaven for the 7 years. This agrees perfectly with John, for he shows the church in heaven for the marriage and marriage supper, before Jesus returns to earth. Therefore, the number 1 as given by onelove will come after the rapture of the church. Of course there will be some that stand against the antichrist. There will be many church goers that will miss the rapture. They will realize their error, and will then turn to God will all their heart. Next, there will be many Jews (or Israel from the other 10 tribes) that will resist the antichrist. Most of these that resist will be beheaded. However, the Jews that flee into the wilderness will be protected. Oneloves points 2-4, are taken out of context. Jesus did not get to the 70th week until He mentions the abomination. In these scriptures, He is referring to the church age. Indeed, even in Paul's day, Jews that professed Jesus were taken. For the readers, please look up these scriptures given by onelove below.

Scriptural documentation for above points:

1 {Lk 21:12-15}, {Rev 9:1-11}, {Mk 24:4-15}.
2 {Mk 13:9-11}, {Mt 24:9-13}, {Lk 21:12-15}, {Dan 11:44}.
3 {1st King 19:18}, {Rom 11:1-5}.
4 {Lk 21:16}, {Mk 13:12}, {Mt 24:10}.
5 {LK 12:11}, {Mk 13:9}, {Mt 24:9}.
6 {Rev 7:1-10}.

At this point, the end is very near. The "Two Witnesses", who have been sent earlier from God to lead His Elect in resisting the antichrist, and whom are spoken of in {Rev 11:3-19; are murdered by antichrist and his misguided followers. Their dead bodies are left to rot in the street in public view.

The two witnesses will show up just before the midpoint of the week, and just before the abomination, just as John shows us. They will testify during the last 3 1/2 years, during the time that the antichrist will be executing all those that refuse the mark. They will be killed 3 1/2 days before the end of the 70th week.

God's Elect shall be on the earth during the Great Tribulation, there will be no "Rapture of the righteous!" What did Jesus mean when He said: "Behold, I have told you before."? {Mat 24:25}. He was telling us about the false messiah, the spurious messiah, the antichrist whom is satan that shall come to this earth claiming to be the true Messiah. Many on the earth who are waiting for a 'Rapture of the Saints' before the Second Advent will believe that the antichrist truly is the Messiah Jesus Christ. That is the danger in the Rapture theories (among the other false church systems, dogmas, and doctrines of men), they don't warn the people that there are two saviors coming, first, the false savior antichrist, then after him, the True Savior Messiah Jesus Christ comes at His Second Advent. Hence Jesus mused: "...Nevertheless when the Son of man cometh, shall he find faith on the earth?" {Luke 18:8}. Will He?!? Will he find you being faithful or worshipping satan the antichrist, waiting in line to be Raptured somewhere?

The true church will never believe that the antichrist is the true Christ, because we will be in heaven. Go again and read in Rev 19, that the marriage and marriage supper take place in heaven, before Jesus comes to earth on the white horse. The "elect" that are on the earth, are all those that turn to God during the 70th week, or the Jews that flee into the wilderness at the midpoint of the week. Therefore, the real danger is not to believe in the rapture, and so get left behind. Jesus is coming for those that are "looking for" His coming. (Titus 2:13) The great danger is to be led astray in your thinking so that you will be looking for something else first. We must be looking for and expecting the rapture of the church.

Therefore, I challenge the readers to meditate on those scriptures that tell us we will be delivered from His wrath, and that we should be looking for that blessed hope, the rapture of the church.

Coop

 

[golfjack]

Coop, How are you? Haven't seen you post for awhile. I sure am looking forward to the rapture. What a day. To be with my Jesus is really something to look forward to.

Can you explain your position in Rev. 6 about the rider on the white horse. I have always thought it was the anti-christ.


May God bless, Golfjack

 

[lecoop]

Coop, How are you? Haven't seen you post for awhile. I sure am looking forward to the rapture. What a day. To be with my Jesus is really something to look forward to.

Can you explain your position in Rev. 6 about the rider on the white horse. I have always thought it was the anti-christ.


May God bless, Golfjack

Golfjack,

I guess it is traditional teaching that the 70th week starts with the first white horse, and traditions are VERY hard to die. But they can die, only by revelation knowledge. When I was reading Daniel 9:27 the Holy Spirit came to me saying that I could find that exact midpoint (mentioned in that 27th verse) in Revelation, "clearly marked." And then He told me how to find it. Before He left off speaking with me, He ended with "in fact, you could find the entire 70th week, 'clearly marked.' "

This started me on a search to find what He sent me to find. I did indeed, find the midpoint of the week "clearly marked," by the 7th trumpet. Then I found the entire week, "clearly marked" by the other sevens: the beginnnig with the 7th seal, and the end with the 7th vial.

Then I started bugging God about the early chapters of the book. Since tradition has the white horse as the antichrist (even when not one word about him gives us even one hint of this) I knew there must be some clues in chapter 5 and 7 that would show that the first seal could not possibly start the 70th week, and the white horse could not possibly be the antichrist. The Holy Spirit again came through for me, and pointed me to many proofs.

I did what I have learned to do for revelation knowledge: I read over chapters 4 through 6 many times, praying in the spirit (tongues) as I read. As I have learned, a prayer in tongues is to be answered just as any other prayer is to be answered. But in doing this, I am "pointing" the prayer in tongues toward revelation about the word of God. Eventually, I got "stuck" on John "weeping much" because no man was found. I could not get away from it, so I kept bugging God about it. Why did God even include it in the book? Why was it important that John wept? Why was it important that he wept "much?" Finally, after a couple of weeks, God answer me. He said, "it shows timing."

Again I searched these chapters, to find timing. It took many weeks of meditating on these verses, but finally, I understood the intent of the author. However, before I get into that, let me go to another verse first. As we read the first five verses of chapter 12, one thing begins to imerge: John is writing about events of the past: events of when Jesus was born. In other words, John starts that chapter with a small "history lesson." His intent (and God's intent as He shows John) is to introduce us to the dragon, and what the dragon will do during the 70th week. However, before He gets to the 70th week, by way of introduction, John shows us that the dragon was very busy, back when Jesus was born on earth as a man.

With that thought in mind, go and read chapters 4-5. John does the same thing - only it is harder to spot here. John starts out with a "history lesson." His intent (and God's intent as He shows John the vision) is to introduce John to the scroll, or book. However, by way of introduction, He must take John back to a time before Jesus gets the scroll into His hands. There are several clues of this.

First, read chapter 4: Jesus is NOT there in the throne room. Yet, there are many verses that show us that Jesus went to be at the Father's right hand. Why did not John see him there, in 95 AD? Next, John shows us that the Holy Spirit is there in the throne room - yet we read that Jesus said, as soon as He arrives in heaven, He would send the Holy Spirit down. John also tells us this in 5:6: "which are the seven Spirits of God sent forth into all the earth." So we see that Jesus is NOT there, but the Holy Spirit is. Next, John tells us that a search was in progress to find a man worthy to break the seals. In fact, the search ended in failure, which is why John was weeping. So we have to ask ourselves why or how this search could have ended in failure.

Putting these things together, we see that God was giving John a small "history lesson," and was showing John a vision of the throne room of the past. John was seeing into the throne room during the time that Jesus was on the earth. That explains why Jesus was not in the throne room, and why the Holy Spirit was. Why was the search for one worthy not successful? Very simply because no one had at that moment become the redeemer of mankind. However, John was able to see the very moment that Jesus ascended to heaven, and was immediately found worthy to break the seals. Therefore, John was seeing into a time of his past, to about 33 AD. Notice that the first thing that Jesus did when He ascended to heaven, was take the scroll out of the hand of the Father, just as if it was the most important thing He could do. In fact, it was. Jesus then immediately started breaking the seals. The first seal then, was broken approximately 33 AD.

Now, if we study the first seal, we see the color white: the white horse. God used white in the bible from Genesis to the end, to represent righteousness. He would not change for this one instance. John used the color white 16 other times in Revelation, each time to represent righteousness. He also would not change for this one instance. It is for certain then, that the color white was to represent righteousness. What about the horse itself? God has used horses to represent warfare, and it is certain that warfare is meant here. So we have a rider riding out to conquer, riding a white horse. And this was about 33 AD. We might ask ourselves, what entity on earth was righteous in God's eyes, in 33 AD, just after Jesus rose from the dead? The answer is, the church of Jesus Christ. yes, those 120 hiding in the upper room, were declared righteous by God.

What did Jesus command them? To go and make disciples of every nation. Who owned or controlled these nations? Of course, Satan did. Therefore, there was going to be warfare! Satan would not just step aside and allow the church full access to every nation. We see this warfare going on continually in the life of Paul. Satan opposed him continuously. This is the conquering that John had in mind. The church had to overcome or conquer the principalities and powers of each area of the earth, before the church could make disciples there. This is the meaning of the white horse.

Next, we find the red horse, the black horse, and the pale horse. Satan is behind them, trying to stop the church. If we read closely, they are limited to one fourth of the surface of the earth. We can be sure that that one fourth would include the holy land. We can also see that John ties these three together with the word "them," (Revv 6:8) leaving out the white horse and rider. Even in my short lifetime, famines and wars have gone on continually in Africa. We can be sure that Africa was included in that one fourth also.

Also note, when John is introduced to the antichrist, or beast, he is definitely not colored white! Yes, certainly Satan or the antichrist, would like to paint themselves white, but this vision is coming from Father God, not either of them!

Coop

 

[golfjack]

Coop, Thanks for your input. I still believe the rider to be the ant-christ. Matt. 24 and the six seals are compared to what Jesus said and what John saw. Matt. 24:4, 5. 4. And Jesus annswered and said unto them, take heed that no man deceive you. 5. For many shall come in my nname, saying, I am the Christ; and shall deceive many.

It is evident that one of those who will claim to be the Christ will be the man of sin ( the anti-christ).

Then we see in Rev. 6:1, 2 that reveals the first seal opened by the Lamb is the anti-christ riding a white horse. He had a bow, but no arrows and someone had to give him a crown.

For sure there is a gap in timing, but if we study the Jewish calendar, that should settle the problems some have.


May God bless, Golfjack

 

[lecoop]

Coop, Thanks for your input. I still believe the rider to be the ant-christ. Matt. 24 and the six seals are compared to what Jesus said and what John saw. Matt. 24:4, 5. 4. And Jesus annswered and said unto them, take heed that no man deceive you. 5. For many shall come in my nname, saying, I am the Christ; and shall deceive many.

It is evident that one of those who will claim to be the Christ will be the man of sin ( the anti-christ).

Then we see in Rev. 6:1, 2 that reveals the first seal opened by the Lamb is the anti-christ riding a white horse. He had a bow, but no arrows and someone had to give him a crown.

For sure there is a gap in timing, but if we study the Jewish calendar, that should settle the problems some have.


May God bless, Golfjack

Golfjack, you missed some important words.

5 For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many.
6 And ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars: see that ye be not troubled: for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet.


Remember, this discourse was given before the church age even began. Does it make sense to you that Jesus would skip over 2000 years of history? Especially when the whole conversation started over when the temple would be destroyed, which happened soon after this conversation?

No, Jesus started where they were, in 33 AD, and covered the entire church age. Granted, it was just a brief outline, such as "ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars." We have seen two world wars, and many, many smaller ones. Jesus was speaking of these. Jesus spoke of "there shall be famines, and pestilences, and earthquakes, in divers places." We have seen these things also. However, notice what Jesus says at the end of verse 6: "the end is not yet." Jesus is saying that these events, i.e. wars, rumors of wars, earthquakes, famines, etc, are NOT signs to look for for the end, or for the 70th week of Daniel. Jesus has not yet got to that part of His discourse yet.
In fact, He says that these things are "these are the beginning of sorrows." He has not yet gotton to the 70th week.

Now notice:

9 Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake.
10 And then shall many be offended, and shall betray one another, and shall hate one another.
11 And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many.


Then "when?" When will these things happen? Back up to verses 8, 7, and 6. He is still speaking of the church age. He still has not gotton to the time of the end, or to the 70th week.

Follow:

13 But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.
14 And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.
15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand

Notice that finally, Jesus speaks of the end, first time in verse 13. Now he will start to speak of the 70th week. But before that 70th week can come, verse 14 must take place: the gospel must be spread to every nation. We are there now. Finally, in verse 15, Jesus covers the first verse speaking directly to the 70th week of Daniel. All the verses before this, must go with "the end is not yet."

Certainly there is a parallel between the first verses of Matt 24 and the first seals. But both of these speak of the church age, not of the end. Therefore, it is poor bible exegesis to take verse 5, "many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many," and try to make it fit the first white horse of Revelation. If you will note, it says, "many!" This is of course referring to the 2000 years of the church age, not to the 70th week. Yes, the man of sin will surely come, and will surely claim to be God, but not before the church has been raptured.

Go back and read about the first seal again, only think of the year 33 AD. Don't read with preconceived glasses. Please note that when God does reveal evil to John, such as the dragon or the scarlet beast, they are colored bright red. God did not intend to confuse us at all: white has always represented righteousness, and always will. Since the Holy Spirit caused John to write,then John would NEVER use white to represent evil, either. Next, find even ONE word that would give even ONE hint that there is anything evil about this first horse and rider. It is simply NOT there. Why? Because there IS nothing evil about him. God is not trying to deceive here. 33 AD is far too early for the antichrist. Paul said that He cannot be revealed until the restrainer has been removed. Sorry, but that restraining force has not been removed in Rev. 6:1. By the way, John does not even get to the 70th week until the 7th seal, and he is not introduced to the beast until the 13th chapter. The timing is all wrong to introduce the antichrist in chapter 6.

I know that tradition is hard to break. Yes, the rider has a bow. The Greek word is "toxon," and is used nowhere else in the bible. However, in classical Greek, it is used exclusively for the bow that shoots an arrow, and NEVER for a ribbon. The very word, "toxon" came from the toxic poison that was used to poison the arrows.

Strongs does, however, give us a root word: "tikto." If we look up the meaning of that root word, we get:

1) to bring forth, bear, produce (fruit from the seed)
a) of a woman giving birth
b) of the earth bringing forth its fruits
c) metaph. to bear, bring forth

It is possible that the bow with no arrows is to represent the spiritual warfare the church carries out. We don't use guns or arrows to defeat the principalities and powers - we use spiritual weapons. Or it is possible that God meant for the bow to mean what the root word means.

The rider is given a crown. Why wouldn't the church of Jesus Christ be given a crown?

Next, if you want to make the first rider the antichrist, then it must be that the other 3 riders follow him, and he is behind it all. If this is so, and it would have to be, then the antichrist MUST then be limited to one fourth of the earth. This goes directly against chapter 13.

To come to your conclusion, you MUST overlook the context of Rev. 6:1, meaning the entire fifth chapter.

Therefore, the first horse being the antichrist is only a myth. Meditate on these things for a while.

This is, of course, my opinion, but it is backed up by the word of God. It all fits into the context of these verses.

Please explain your "gap in timing."

Coop

 

[golfjack]

Coop, Will have to give my discourse later, as it is very long. My end-times thelogy is based much about God will handle the state of Israel. Many say their end came in 70AD, which is a preterist view. I believe right before the rapture, there will be a big move against Israel by Russia and arab states. I believe we must remember that Jesus in Matt. 24 gave them Jewish answers.



May God bless, Golfjack

 

[lecoop]

Coop, Will have to give my discourse later, as it is very long. My end-times thelogy is based much about God will handle the state of Israel. Many say their end came in 70AD, which is a preterist view. I believe right before the rapture, there will be a big move against Israel by Russia and arab states. I believe we must remember that Jesus in Matt. 24 gave them Jewish answers.



May God bless, Golfjack

I certainly agree with that, except I am not sure of the timing of the Arab states. Some think the Eze. 38 war will be just before the 70th week.

I will be waiting... Thanks

Coop

 

[n2thelight]

Coop

Simple question

In Matthew 24 Christ warned us about everthing that would happen before His return,and in that chapter He stated that He would not return until after the tribulation.So my question is this ,how can you say you all will not go thru the trib if He's not coming till after and why did He warn us if we were not going to be here?

And looking at the book of Revelation why do we even need to read it if we are not going to be here?