The rapture

[TRUTH over TRADITION]

When did Paul say this would take place(our gathering)?The exact same as Christ taught in Matthew 24,yet nowhere did Christ mention a rapture .....

You err in assuming the gathering spoken of by necessity was to be inclusive of a group to which you could refer to as 'our'. The timing of the gathering was indeed supposed to have been in conjunction with the timetable found in Matthew 24 where Jesus is clearly quoted as saying that it was to be an event that would occur within that very generation.

The "Son of perdition" is Satan

There is no scriptural support for this conclusion. This idea is based on the pervasive error that has been widely accepted that the Satan is one and the same with the king of Babylon mentioned in Isaiah 14 and identified as the shining one (aka Lucifer). The biblical texts never depict the Satan as a being that sought to usurp the position of God from God. Satan is in fact NOT even a proper name for the evil one. What it is is a descriptive term much like the word 'god' that describes the one who possesses the qualifity of being an adversary or opposer.

After all these events or signs take place then Christ returns,so again,how can you all(rapturist)claim that Christ can return at anytime?????

I am not a 'rapturist' in the typical premillenial sense, but I am honest enough to admit that the concept of a rapture, that is being 'caught up' to be with the Christ is taught in scripture in at least one place (1 Thessalonians 4:17). From the sound of your posts it would appear that you're more than knee deep in someone's dogma. Get your facts straight then come back to me with an analysis that doesn't wreak of dogmatic error please.


The big deception is the prevailing idea that the stuff mentioned in Matthew 24, 1 John, 1 Thessalonians 4, Daniel 9, or Revelation has something to do with modern or post modern times. These 'prophetic' events were about the generation of the last days as explained by the texts themselves. Peter says it himself in his Acts discourse and Paul echoed it in 1 Corinthians 10, that they were living in the last days and it was their generation upon whom the "end of the ages had come." Hear ye them!

 

[JLB]

We in this verse refers to those who have by faith chosen to believe and obey the Gospel.

Believing a false gospel of works precludes a correct understanding of end-time events.

Adding "your" words to God's word to come up with "your" doctrine, is pretty much the text book definition of "another" Gospel.

That would be the Gospel of Election.

The Gospel of the Kingdom says that whosoever believes shall have everlasting life.

The gospel of election says that God so loved the elect, that the predestined ones who believe shall have everlasting life.

The Gospel of election is a "different" Gospel that the biblical Gospel of the kingdom.


Different Gospel.

Different spirit.

Different jesus.


JLB

 

[JLB]

The big deception is the prevailing idea that the stuff mentioned in Matthew 24, 1 John, 1 Thessalonians 4, Daniel 9, or Revelation has something to do with modern or post modern times. These 'prophetic' events were about the generation of the last days as explained by the texts themselves. Peter says it himself in his Acts discourse and Paul echoed it in 1 Corinthians 10, that they were living in the last days and it was their generation upon whom the "end of the ages had come." Hear ye them!

Yes the last days began with Christ, and the last Day will end with Christ.

The last Day is a thousand years.

Peter associates the last days with the day of the Lord.

1 Beloved, I now write to you this second epistle (in both of which I stir up your pure minds by way of reminder), 2 that you may be mindful of the words which were spoken before by the holy prophets, and of the commandment of us, the apostles of the Lord and Savior, 3 knowing this first: that scoffers will come in the last days, walking according to their own lusts, 4 and saying, "Where is the promise of His coming? For since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of creation." 5 For this they willfully forget: that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of water and in the water, 6 by which the world that then existed perished, being flooded with water. 7 But the heavens and the earth which are now preserved by the same word, are reserved for fire until the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men. 2 Peter 3:1-7

Jesus described that Day of judgement in Matthew 25 -

31 "When the Son of Man comes in His glory, and all the holy angels with Him, then He will sit on the throne of His glory. 32 All the nations will be gathered before Him, and He will separate them one from another, as a shepherd divides his sheep from the goats. 33 And He will set the sheep on His right hand, but the goats on the left. 34 Then the King will say to those on His right hand, 'Come, you blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:

41 Then He will also say to those on the left hand, 'Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels:


This event is at the end of the age.

He will raise us up on the last Day.


JLB

 

[n2thelight]

Originally Posted by n2thelight
When did Paul say this would take place(our gathering)?The exact same as Christ taught in Matthew 24,yet nowhere did Christ mention a rapture .....

TruthoverTradition

You err in assuming the gathering spoken of by necessity was to be inclusive of a group to which you could refer to as 'our'. The timing of the gathering was indeed supposed to have been in conjunction with the timetable found in Matthew 24 where Jesus is clearly quoted as saying that it was to be an event that would occur within that very generation.

Not assuming anything,the subject was when shall we gather to Christ,period...You err in not knowing what generation Christ was refering,let me give you a hint,it wasn't the one in AD 70......


Originally Posted by n2thelight The "Son of perdition" is Satan

Truth

There is no scriptural support for this conclusion. This idea is based on the pervasive error that has been widely accepted that the Satan is one and the same with the king of Babylon mentioned in Isaiah 14 and identified as the shining one (aka Lucifer). The biblical texts never depict the Satan as a being that sought to usurp the position of God from God. Satan is in fact NOT even a proper name for the evil one. What it is is a descriptive term much like the word 'god' that describes the one who possesses the qualifity of being an adversary or opposer.

In the greek,anti can,and in this case,does mean instead of,satan as the anti christ shall come pretending to be Christ,ie anti.......The king of Babylon in Isaiah is non other than satan.....I suggest you read Ezekiel,for the dipiction of satan trying to usurp God....Do you understand or should I say,know the many names that satan goes by?

Originally Posted by n2thelight
After all these events or signs take place then Christ returns,so again,how can you all(rapturist)claim that Christ can return at anytime?????

Truth

I am not a 'rapturist' in the typical premillenial sense, but I am honest enough to admit that the concept of a rapture, that is being 'caught up' to be with the Christ is taught in scripture in at least one place (1 Thessalonians 4:17). From the sound of your posts it would appear that you're more than knee deep in someone's dogma. Get your facts straight then come back to me with an analysis that doesn't wreak of dogmatic error please.


The big deception is the prevailing idea that the stuff mentioned in Matthew 24, 1 John, 1 Thessalonians 4, Daniel 9, or Revelation has something to do with modern or post modern times. These 'prophetic' events were about the generation of the last days as explained by the texts themselves. Peter says it himself in his Acts discourse and Paul echoed it in 1 Corinthians 10, that they were living in the last days and it was their generation upon whom the "end of the ages had come." Hear ye them!

Yea Im knee deep in someone's dogma,the Word.....As for the rest of that Ad70 stuff,won't get into it,as it's just as false as a 3 dollar bill.....

Fact is I never said that we would not be caught up, it's called our gathering,and like I posted Paul as well as Christ told us everything that must happen before that time,meaning it CANNOT,happen at anytime,period.....

 

[josefnospam]

The gospel of election

There isn't a gospel of election..........Jesus Christ forgiving sins is the gospel. It happens that he does have a choosen people, he choose before the world was formed and he sanctified them and paid the price of there sins in blood. I for one am glad he did so.

Concerning the rapture, all things are in his hands and he will come when the time is right.

The Gospel of the Kingdom says that whosoever believes shall have everlasting life.

Who is the whosoever? Maybe a random group that chooses to accept him? My God is in complete control of ALL things. He is a mighty and great God whose name is Jesus Christ the Lord and savior of his people. " For he shall save HIS people from their sins............" Matt. 2:21

 

[josefnospam]

it CANNOT,happen at anytime,period.....

not sure what you mean by this statement.................Clarify please.

Christ is coming back in judgement and to get his people, at the last day. This is often refered to as the rapture, when we are change. Could be your physical death, or the end of all things as we know them. Either way we get to see him as he is and worship him forever and ever.

 

[iLOVE]

Damascus, Syria, and Isaiah 17

Prophecies in the end times has to do with Isaiah 17. The prophecies in Isaiah 17 point to the end times destruction of Damascus, Syria. The Bible states that the destruction of Damascus will be so great that the city will be nothing but a "ruinous heap" after the fulfillment of the ancient prophecy.

Euphrates River:The river plays a pivotal role in end time Bible prophecy. Sometime during the Great Tribulation, when the Beast and False Prophet rule the world, the release of four angels from their watery prison occurs.

"Then the sixth angel sounded: And I heard a voice from the four horns of the golden altar which is before God, saying to the sixth angel who had the trumpet, 'Release the four angels who are bound at the . . . Euphrates.' So the four angels, who had been prepared for the hour and day and month and year, were released to kill a third of mankind." (Revelation 9:13-15)
​

 

[TRUTH over TRADITION]

Not assuming anything,the subject was when shall we gather to Christ,period...You err in not knowing what generation Christ was refering,let me give you a hint,it wasn't the one in AD 70......

You are making an assumption N2. You did it earlie and you repeat it here. The assumption you make is that WE were spoken of as being a part of the number that was to be gathered by the Christ. We obviously disagree on what the generation spoken of is scripture was, so let's try and fix that. What does the collectivity of texts that deal with this issue have to say on the subject?

anti can,and in this case,does mean instead of,satan as the anti christ shall come pretending to be Christ

Anti can mean against, in place of, etc., but so what? It's meaning is irrelavant to your points in our discussion as neither of us has mentioned the antichrist until now. The term anti-christ is only used in John and is not found anywhere else in scripture. The idea that Daniel, Thessalonians, and Revelation speak of this made up end time antichrist figure is foriegn to the scriptures. The scriptures say that the were MANY antichrists and never allude to there being a singular endtime incarnation that would be known as THE ANTICHRIST. The very concept is purely the ficticious surmizing of those that ad to the scriptural texts to create a dogma foreign to the apostle's doctrine expressed in the NT.

I suggest you read Ezekiel,for the dipiction of satan trying to usurp God

I suppose you are referring to Ezekiel 28 as the place the satan is described. If so, we again disagree. The context of the Ezekiel passage states that the depiction is directed at a moral human being that ruled ancient Tyre. Satan is nowhere mentioned or even implied in the context of Ezekiel 26-30.

 

[n2thelight]

it CANNOT,happen at anytime,period.....

not sure what you mean by this statement.................Clarify please.

Christ is coming back in judgement and to get his people, at the last day. This is often refered to as the rapture, when we are change. Could be your physical death, or the end of all things as we know them. Either way we get to see him as he is and worship him forever and ever.

Rapturist teach that Christ can return at anytime,the point of my post,was to show that He can't,as there are certain things that must happen first......There are only two advents of Christ,in all of scripture,in order for the rapture to be sound doctrine,He must return twice,and that's not the case.....

Nobody goes to heaven when Christ returns,He comes here,to this earth,where we sall be gathered together,with those whom He brings with Him......

All will be changed at His return,(7th trump)or at death,whichever comes first,the saved as well as the unsaved..... Christians are not going to get wisked off of this planet in some sudden mass disappearence,while all hell breaks out here on earth....

 

[turnorburn]

iLOVE said

Damascus, Syria, and Isaiah 17

Prophecies in the end times has to do with Isaiah 17. The prophecies in Isaiah 17 point to the end times destruction of Damascus, Syria. The Bible states that the destruction of Damascus will be so great that the city will be nothing but a "ruinous heap" after the fulfillment of the ancient prophecy.

Euphrates River:The river plays a pivotal role in end time Bible prophecy. Sometime during the Great Tribulation, when the Beast and False Prophet rule the world, the release of four angels from their watery prison occurs.
"Then the sixth angel sounded: And I heard a voice from the four horns of the golden altar which is before God, saying to the sixth angel who had the trumpet, 'Release the four angels who are bound at the . . . Euphrates.' So the four angels, who had been prepared for the hour and day and month and year, were released to kill a third of mankind." (Revelation 9:13-15)

By the looks of things in that region we may be approaching that time, we have the tools to destroy 1/3 of humanity like never before, read any newspaper, we can see hatred between the nations is at an all time high, and growing, the antichrist has been invited to talk peace in Jerusalem, am i missing anything?

tob

 

[JLB]

it CANNOT,happen at anytime,period.....

not sure what you mean by this statement.................Clarify please.

Christ is coming back in judgement and to get his people, at the last day. This is often refered to as the rapture, when we are change. Could be your physical death, or the end of all things as we know them. Either way we get to see him as he is and worship him forever and ever.

Rapturist teach that Christ can return at anytime,the point of my post,was to show that He can't,as there are certain things that must happen first......There are only two advents of Christ,in all of scripture,in order for the rapture to be sound doctrine,He must return twice,and that's not the case.....

Nobody goes to heaven when Christ returns,He comes here,to this earth,where we sall be gathered together,with those whom He brings with Him......

All will be changed at His return,(7th trump)or at death,whichever comes first,the saved as well as the unsaved..... Christians are not going to get wisked off of this planet in some sudden mass disappearence,while all hell breaks out here on earth....

I endorse this message!

The resurrection come before the Rapture.

The resurrection is all the people who have ever died, from Adam to the end of the age.

20 But now Christ is risen from the dead, and has become the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep. 21 For since by man came death, by Man also came the resurrection of the dead. 22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ all shall be made alive. 23 But each one in his own order: Christ the firstfruits, afterward those who are Christ's at His coming. 24 Then comes the end, when He delivers the kingdom to God the Father, when He puts an end to all rule and all authority and power. 1 Corinthians 15:20-24


JLB

 

[n2thelight]

Not assuming anything,the subject was when shall we gather to Christ,period...You err in not knowing what generation Christ was refering,let me give you a hint,it wasn't the one in AD 70......

You are making an assumption N2. You did it earlie and you repeat it here. The assumption you make is that WE were spoken of as being a part of the number that was to be gathered by the Christ. We obviously disagree on what the generation spoken of is scripture was, so let's try and fix that. What does the collectivity of texts that deal with this issue have to say on the subject?

anti can,and in this case,does mean instead of,satan as the anti christ shall come pretending to be Christ

Anti can mean against, in place of, etc., but so what? It's meaning is irrelavant to your points in our discussion as neither of us has mentioned the antichrist until now. The term anti-christ is only used in John and is not found anywhere else in scripture. The idea that Daniel, Thessalonians, and Revelation speak of this made up end time antichrist figure is foriegn to the scriptures. The scriptures say that the were MANY antichrists and never allude to there being a singular endtime incarnation that would be known as THE ANTICHRIST. The very concept is purely the ficticious surmizing of those that ad to the scriptural texts to create a dogma foreign to the apostle's doctrine expressed in the NT.

I suggest you read Ezekiel,for the dipiction of satan trying to usurp God

I suppose you are referring to Ezekiel 28 as the place the satan is described. If so, we again disagree. The context of the Ezekiel passage states that the depiction is directed at a moral human being that ruled ancient Tyre. Satan is nowhere mentioned or even implied in the context of Ezekiel 26-30.

Im just going to address Ezekiel,as we will never agree on the generation or satan as the antichrist........

Ezekiel 28:13 "Thou hast been in Eden the Garden of God; every precious stone was thy covering, the Sardis, topaz, and the diamond, the beryl, the onyx, and the jasper, the sapphire, the emerald, and the carbuncle, and gold: the workmanship of thy tabrets and thy pipes was prepared in thee in the day that thou wast created."

Do you remember the serpent in the Garden of Eden; and the "tree of good and evil"? Those were two of the names given to Satan, and they are also recorded in Revelation 12:9.

Ezekiel 28:14 "Thou art the anointed cherub that covereth; and I have set thee so: thou wast upon the holy mountain of God; thou hast walked up and down in the midst of the stones of fire."

Now we know this one in Eden has to be Satan, and not Adam, for a cherub has never lived in the body of a man. Back in the thirteenth verse there are ten precious stones mentioned , and each of these stones are on the breastplate of the of the high priest. Before Satan's fall, he sat in an extremely high position, of responsibility.

Satan was anointed by God to fill that high position. It was not an accident of God that Satan sat in that position, for Satan was created and anointed for that position; and he failed.

Now my question to you,when was this mortal human king ever in the Garden?

 

[Rollo Tamasi]

Jesus, Paul, and Peter all taught to be ready, for the coming of the Lord will be like a thief in the night.
If you think things have to happen first, then you are not watching and no doubt will be caught off guard at his coming.

 

[TRUTH over TRADITION]

Im just going to address Ezekiel

Good starting point N2. If we are going to address it properly, I suggest we start in chapter 26 so we can let the entire story about Tyre unfound that we the context will give us an understanding of how to best interpret the message about Tyre and its king(s).

the serpent in the Garden of Eden; and the "tree of good and evil"? Those were two of the names given to Satan, and they are also recorded in Revelation 12:9.

I'm familiar with the serpent (snake or dragon) as being a reference to the Satan but I do not recall the Tree of Knowledge ever being referred to as the Satan.

Now my question to you,when was this mortal human king ever in the Garden?

The answer is never. But that doesn't change the message of Ezekial nor does it mean that the Satan must be read into it. Could it be that the language used from verse 12 to verse 19 was symbolic of the lofty position that Tyre's ruler had been given and not at all intended to be literal depictions of his actual history? This would appear to be the case when reading verses like Ezekiel 28:2 and Ezekiel 28:7-9 which clearly and emphatically refer to this king as a mortal man that would be attacked and defeated by other mortal men.

 

[JLB]

Jesus, Paul, and Peter all taught to be ready, for the coming of the Lord will be like a thief in the night.
If you think things have to happen first, then you are not watching and no doubt will be caught off guard at his coming.

The Lord will not come as a thief in the night for you brethren, but for the world.

The belief that Jesus will come as a thief in the night for us is a myth, a cunningly devised fable to entice people with itching ears.

Sorry, its just not scriptural.

The idea of Jesus return is imminent, is a false doctrine.

Many prophecies must be fulfilled.


JLB

 

[JLB]

It's peppered throughout the NT. How do you miss all of those scriptures?

Could you share some of these scriptures, that teach us of an imminent return?


JLB

 

[FireEyes of christ]

Okay so I am clearly about to get into a Fiery debate but I think it is important to let others know. Now I personally have been spoken to by God telling me how he is coming for me, he has shown me many dreams and visions of the rapture- more than I can count and recently after a very long time of him being silent told me to get ready and be prepared because something big is coming, don't really know what I am to prepare for but I will be ready regardless. Not only has he proven many times to me how the rapture is not just imminent but at the door as we speak, but scripture even points it to us. Almost every single thing in mathew 24 and mark 13 have already and are now coming to pass, and with all these signs God is basically screaming at us to wake up and prepare our hearts for his collecting his bride.

However who will listen? The funny thing about reading scripture to prove our points is we tend to only see what we want to see, so even if I were to say give scripture that says how we will be taken before the tribulation anyone who does not believe in it will likely not even try to see. So if that is not enough then we must look at the patterns in the bible. All through out the old testament God has warned people of sudden destruction and wrath and has always at the last second saved his beloveds from it. We have noah, we have lot and his family and we have david who many many times was rescued from destruction because he trusted God and had faith.

God love his children( Us) and is not going to let us go through great suffering before we can go home like the tribulation. Does a loving and caring parents send their children to get whipped and beaten or do they give their very lives to save and protect them? This is how Jesus and the father are, they love us far too much to allow this.

 

[Rollo Tamasi]

The idea of Jesus return is imminent, is a false doctrine.

Then you have no hope of his returning soon?
Without hope, what do you have?

 

[Rollo Tamasi]

Many prophecies must be fulfilled

Please name one prophecy that still needs to be fulfilled.
Just one.
Give me the one you believe to be the most convincing.

 

[JLB]

6 But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only.

By using this well know Hebrew expression, Jesus just told you that He is returning on the feast of Trumpets. Because the start of this feast could only be determined when the new Moon was sighted, whether on the 29th day or the 30th day, hence the phrase "no man knows the day or hour.

In addition, this phrase carried the meaning of a wedding feast, because the father was the one in charge of the preperations and it was up to him to signal the start of the wedding, it would be said -

No one knows the day or hour, only My Father.

35“Therefore keep watch because you do not know when the owner of the house will come back—whether in the evening, or at midnight, or when the rooster crows, or at dawn. 36 If he comes suddenly, do not let him find you sleeping. 37 What I say to you, I say to everyone: ‘Watch!’ “

The disciples asked Jesus, what will be the sign of your coming and the end of the age.

Jesus answered with and extensive list that would make us aware, especially the AOD and the signs in the sun, moon and stars.

As a person studies Daniel, they begin to see the implications of what will take place in the 70 th week.

Paul says it this way -

1 Now, brethren, concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him, we ask you, 2 not to be soon shaken in mind or troubled, either by spirit or by word or by letter, as if from us, as though the day of Christ had come. 3 Let no one deceive you by any means; for that Day will not come unless the falling away comes first, and the man of sin is revealed, the son of perdition, 4 who opposes and exalts himself above all that is called God or that is worshiped, so that he sits as God in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God. 2 Thessalonians 2:1-4


When I see the Children of Israel return to the promised land.

When I see that they are ready to build the last temple.

When I see that a major New Age organization puts out a world wide news paper ad stating THE CHRIST IS NOW HERE.

When I see that there are wars and rumors of wars occurring and escalating world wide.

When I see these things, I have great hope, for I know that His Coming is near.


When I see the signs in the Sun, and Moon and stars occur that Jesus spoke of, THEM AT THAT MOMENT I will lift up my head, for I know my redemption draws near.

Because I am a child of the Day, and I'm NOT IN THE DARKNESS, this Day won't overtake me as a thief.


Now if you believe that Jesus will come secretly, and His Coming will be invisible, the I can see where you would think that there are two different times He would return.


28 so Christ was offered once to bear the sins of many. To those who eagerly wait for Him He will appear a second time, apart from sin, for salvation. Hebrews 9:28


JLB