The rapture

[Sinthesis]

For many believers the following, the work, the preaching must in some way end with a final judgment. There is a rushed feeling in John and Paul's Writings that believers must prepare and get things right. "The Antichrist" is very clear by Johns writings a spirit that had pervaded the area and was effect people as we don't wrestle against flesh and blood. To say that it was just "A" man would mean mean making connections that are simple not there as John is the only one to flag these types of spirits and their operations.

So, while there was a imminence in the tone of the writers, certainly a "Stay Ready, Serve the Lord and all is well." There are other passages of scriptures I personally would have issue with in comparison to write off a end of the World, God judges.............. Happy ever after ending.

The scriptures that would cause me to shy from a "Already done, already occurred" position have been discussed by JLB and a few others, myself included in many other threads. While we are told these things must come to pass shortly, I hear the echo of the Lord and what the Lord considers his timing of things. Short to the Lord does not mean in our lifetime or even several lifetimes thereafter. It denotes a start of things which all things wrap up.

In the last days God has sent his son to speak to us.........

Well, that was about 2K years ago, so I can't take the position that more is not to come. Peter said things do not continue as they always have, and since the Lord Jesus they have.



Yes we are, but you did not understand a thing when I explained the scripture to you. One more time......... Jesus said to His father, that his 12 are not of this world, the World hated me and will hate them, because they are not of this World (Not belonging here on earth) I am not asking you to take them out of the World but keep the from evil.

Our hope in Christ is not that we avoid a physical death, but that we may as believers serve His purposes in the world as strangers to it, but protected from it's evil through His gift of spiritual life.

Your making stuff up here.............. Keep them in the World!!! that is physical protection like the Word Salvation and saved mean. If something evil kills you here then you are removed from the world. There is nothing else for you under the sun.

Also one scripture where any apostle died in a gruesome way. Just one.

I already told you by the scripture you brought up that it best you address other folks. Same old stuff and worse you twist it around to some spiritual protection saying that most of the apostles died a gruesome death.

I have a scripture for you.

Heb_11:35 Women received their dead raised to life again: and others were tortured, not accepting deliverance; that they might obtain a better resurrection:

Our hope in Christ is not that we avoid a physical death...................

Luk_10:19 Behold, I give unto you power to tread on serpents and scorpions, and over all the power of the enemy: and nothing shall by any means hurt you.

What does nothing mean to you?

Isa_54:17 No weapon that is formed against thee shall prosper; and every tongue that shall rise against thee in judgment thou shalt condemn. This is the heritage of the servants of the LORD, and their righteousness is of me, saith the LORD.

What does no weapon shall prosper mean to you?

All that must just spiritual........... In the land of clouds right?

Where is your faith?

2Ti_4:6 For I am now ready to be offered, and the time of my departure is at hand.

Who has to be ready to go?

Enough..........

Your scripture where just one apostle's death is recorded and how gruesome it was. We will go from there when you produce that. You will get my attention when that is produced as I sure can't find it myself.

Mike.

Jhn 21:18 - Verily, verily, I say unto thee, When thou wast young, thou girdedst thyself, and walkedst whither thou wouldest: but when thou shalt be old, thou shalt stretch forth thy hands, and another shall gird thee, and carry thee whither thou wouldest not.

Jhn 21:19 - This spake he, signifying by what death he should glorify God. And when he had spoken this, he saith unto him, Follow me.
​

The martyrdoms of the apostles glorified God. Their service to Christ even unto their deaths furthered the spread of the Gospel. Their deaths were a witness to others as to the certainty the apostles had in Jesus' promise of resurrection after the death of their physical bodies.

Mat 10:28 - And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.
​

It is a mistake to think our reward is merely physical safety.

The martyrdoms of the apostles glorified God. Their service to Christ even unto their deaths furthered the spread of the Gospel. Their deaths were a witness to others as to the certainty the apostles had in Jesus' promise of resurrection after the death of their physical bodies.

I said one scripture to back your statement about a recorded "Gruesome" death of an apostle. You said most of the apostles and you give me the scripture about Peter which I expected but how did Peter die? Was it Gruesome? Just one that did die, yet you said most.

Then you give a scripture about hell, which apostle went to hell? Or was Hell just something we are glad to avoid?

Stick to the Word, stop making things up. If you want my attention, then speak the Word only otherwise you have no credibility. You can talk to the rest of the folks here, don't address me until you snap out of it.

One scripture about Peter, No scripture about any gruesome death to back up your statement, No scripture describing how Peter died, all made up and just not good enough.

One reason I like Truth Over Tradition. His Doctrine is things I don't agree with, but He never says anything outside of what the scripture actually says, that is someone that takes the Word seriously, agree with him or not.

Mike.

I supplied scripture in which Jesus prophesied the circumstances of Peter's death. Gruesome! Historical sources confirm the gruesome nature of Peter's crucifixion and therefore confirm Jesus' prophecy. Surely you don't believe Christ a false prophet. The gruesome deaths of other apostles are also recorded in historical sources. Listen to [MENTION=47381]reba[/MENTION].

The scripture of Matt 10:28 does not suggest any apostle went to hell, rather it is Christ teaching that one should not fear a death at the hands of evil doer's if that physical death comes in the service of our God, who alone has the power to resurrect and either glorify or damn for eternity.

The reason I point out the fallacy in presuming that God wouldn't allow His children to die in tribulation (beyond the reality of two thousand years of Christian martyrs) is that it is based on a false idea of what is important to God. This exact same fallacy leads Muslims to deny the gruesome crucifixion of Jesus Christ in favor of a conspiracy in which He isn't really sown in dishonour and weakness, because that offends their preconceived sensibilities. However, in falling on this stumblingblock they never reach the understanding that this was done so that Jesus could then be resurrected in glory and power, nullifying the work of evil men, and thereby demonstrating to the world the true power of God.

Paul looked forward to being with Jesus, yet knew he was given a task on this earth. How did Paul die?

 

[Brother Mike]

Historical sources confirm the gruesome nature of Peter's crucifixion and therefore confirm Jesus' prophecy

Historical what???

Wow, I could have signed up to the History forum If I wanted history. I wanted a scripture and you did not give me one. Not good enough!!!

he scripture of Matt 10:28 does not suggest any apostle went to hell, rather it is Christ teaching that one should not fear a death at the hands of evil doer's if that physical death comes in the service of our God, who alone has the power to resurrect and either glorify or damn for eternity.

I don't remember talking about any Apostle going to hell, what brings this about?

The reason I point out the fallacy in presuming that God wouldn't allow His children to die in tribulation (beyond the reality of two thousand years of Christian martyrs) is that it is based on a false idea of what is important to God.

I also don't remember saying God does not allow his people to die..............

you sure your on the right forum?

Mike.

 

[Messenger]

2 Tim. 2:24 And the servant of the Lord must not strive; but be gentle unto all men, apt to teach, patient

 

[Brother Mike]

2 Tim. 2:24 And the servant of the Lord must not strive; but be gentle unto all men, apt to teach, patient

1Ti_2:4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.

 

[reba]

Historical what??? Wow, I could have signed up to the History forum If I wanted history. I wanted a scripture and you did not give me one. Not good enough!!!

Show me a Scripture that says their deaths were of 'natural' causes or that they didn't die or their death were peaceful ....

 

[Brother Mike]

Show me a Scripture that says their deaths were of 'natural' causes or that they didn't die or their death were peaceful ....

If I had said they died natural deaths, or causes and if I said they died peacefully, I would have provided scripture. Mike backs everything with scripture, I don't make stuff up on a Christan forum. We should have more respect than that, don't you think?

You may look at the scripture different, but to make something up and not have scripture is just not good enough.

That was my point to the poster, and I never mentioned how any Apostle died, I asked this poster for scripture and they failed.

Mike.

 

[reba]

so..... just show me the scripture...you cant .... there are not there ..... history is not a bad thing.... We know John was boiled in oil, We know Pete was crucified upside down , or wanted to be... John the Baptist was beheaded.... Stephen was stoned ... Having Biblical knowledge of some of these guys lends credence to the historical accounts of the others.... I believe it was John ( revelation John) who died a 'natural death'. I believe Paul was beheaded.... James was stabbed

Some times when i think of those guys and what they endured for the cause of Christ and we bicker here like children my stomach rolls

 

[n2thelight]

Matthew 24:3 "And as He sat upon the mount of Olives the disciples came unto Him privately, saying, "Tell us, when shall these things be and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?"

Question about the above verse.....

Would it be correct for me to say,the answers Christ gives concerning that verse,is intended for the tribulation saints?

I ask because,why would the answers concern those in Christ,if they were not going to be here?

 

[Messenger]

2 Tim. 2:24 And the servant of the Lord must not strive; but be gentle unto all men, apt to teach, patient

1Ti_2:4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.

I was not referring to your lack of understanding the Scriptures with regard to salvation,
but your crass demeanor displayed with those whose posts you respond to when discussing Biblical matters.

Are you causing strife, or are you proving that you can interact with all gently, patiently?

 

[Brother Mike]

I was not referring to your lack of understanding the Scriptures with regard to salvation,
but your crass demeanor displayed with those whose posts you respond to when discussing Biblical matters.

Are you causing strife, or are you proving that you can interact with all gently, patiently?

Let's get something straight here. Not many here to be taught patiently, that would normally come in the form of a question. If I am unclear, I ask. So we are dealing with those that already know everything and deal with them on their level.

so..... just so me the scripture...you cant .... there are not there ..... history is not a bad thing.... We know John was boiled in oil, We know Pete was crucified upside down , or wanted to be... John the Baptist was beheaded.... Stephen was stoned ... Having Biblical knowledge of some of these guys lends credence to the historical accounts of the others.... I believe it was John ( revelation John) who died a 'natural death'. I believe Paul was beheaded.... James was stabbed

If you like history then fine, it's all speculation anyway. I heard that they tried to kill John and could not touch him so they sent him off to a remote Island. Makes great stories but we are discussing the Word here, not stories or secular History. If someone post or quote someone else about some history you don't hear from me, but if someone gets my attention then I would appreciate scripture to back it since Mike only focuses on the Word, nothing else.

There are all kinds of forums out there, Gardening, Motorcycles, even History forums. I picked this one because I love the Word of God.

Matthew 24:3 "And as He sat upon the mount of Olives the disciples came unto Him privately, saying, "Tell us, when shall these things be and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?"

Question about the above verse.....

Would it be correct for me to say,the answers Christ gives concerning that verse,is intended for the tribulation saints?

I ask because,why would the answers concern those in Christ,if they were not going to be here?

JLB had brought this up already and you can find my response to it somewhere in the forums. Jesus was speaking to the 12 Privately and they asked him what the end of the World (Aion) age would be.

Anything in the Word should be our interest, Left behind to fight the forces of Evil or removed to avoid the mess God makes of this planet. Jesus said he prayed for the 12 and those that believe on their Word, so If Matthew wrote something by the Holy Spirit, then it's for everyone that will believe.

Peter had a great ministry to the Jewish People and Paul had a great ministry to the gentiles. Both groups need the same information. Saved is saved, Jew or Gentile.

Jesus also spoke often to his disciples privately and that would apply to us and anyone else that will believe it.

We still have the matter though of you finding Michael to be the one to throw Satan out of Heaven which there is no scripture. You say that boldly and it does say Satan was cast out but by whom is speculation.

You say Michael is the restrainer according to Rev 12. If that is true that makes it a future event and Salvation, anointing, Strength, The Kingdom of God, authority over spirits have also yet to come.

Or

Jesus has to remove those things from us, leave and forsake us then come back and bring them once again.

Paul told you who the Restrainer was, it's what the whole article is about and it's about the Lord Jesus and us being gathered together by Him. Paul did not switch to mean Michael, never mentioned Michael, and Michael is not holding sin back and letting the Mystery of iniquity work.

Michael is just a Angel............

It's the body of Christ, the Light and salt of the earth, The Lords anointed body that is holding darkness back. The body Jesus said the gates of Hell can't prevail. It's that body that must be removed and Michael is not holding a thing back, the scripture says He must be taken out of the way. Not He must let go of the devil or He must whatever your thought line was on this.

N2thelight, every single scripture must line up with no contradictions. We don't make things up either or add to the Word.

We don't take one scripture and make a Doctrine out of it, so If Holy Spirit really used some action Verb like parapiptō (Apostatize) We still don't have from what, we still don't have any other scripture saying the Church as a whole will Apostatize, we don't have the number it will take.

If you understand simple English even then the Greek Female noun Apostasia should have at least raised some question for you. It just means to depart from a previous standing, it's how it was used in Ancient Greek literature. It's Verb that made the Word just means to depart used 15 times in the NT..

You should question these things, don't let something you want to believe cloud what is actually there. I don't really care, Pre or Post trib, but whatever one it is, the Word has to line up and I have enough sense to know that a Female Greek Noun can not also define the object it interacts with.

Like Faith............ It's a Female Greek noun. It can not tell you faith in what. Shipwreck faith, great faith, Faith in other Gods, Faith it will rain today.

Jesus presents a Glorious church without spot or wrinkle...... Paul Nor Jesus said the Church would fail in any way.

Lets not make things up and consider the other scriptures.

Mike.

 

[JLB]

Brother Mike said -

We don't take one scripture and make a Doctrine out of it, so If Holy Spirit really used some action Verb like parapiptō (Apostatize) We still don't have from what, we still don't have any other scripture saying the Church as a whole will Apostatize, we don't have the number it will take.

If you understand simple English even then the Greek Female noun Apostasia should have at least raised some question for you. It just means to depart from a previous standing, it's how it was used in Ancient Greek literature. It's Verb that made the Word just means to depart used 15 times in the NT..

I love you Brother Mike,

But this statement to me is like using a secular history lesson to teach God's word.

You know as well as anyone an Apostate person is someone who departs from a religious belief.

An apostate commits apostasy. Plain and simple.

The context says Apostate people will depart from the True faith and follow after a false Messiah.

We don't need a secular grammar lesson to try and " explain " otherwise.

Scripture.

Or.

Nothing.

Brother Mike.


JLB

 

[reba]

If you like history then fine, it's all speculation anyway. I heard that they tried to kill John and could not touch him so they sent him off to a remote Island. Makes great stories but we are discussing the Word here, not stories or secular History. If someone post or quote someone else about some history you don't hear from me, but if someone gets my attention then I would appreciate scripture to back it since Mike only focuses on the Word, nothing else.

The Word tells us John was on an island...

Rev 1:9 I John, who also am your brother, and companion in tribulation, and in the kingdom and patience of Jesus Christ, was in the isle that is called Patmos, for the word of God, and for the testimony of Jesus Christ.

 

[reba]

If your post is missing DONT LOOK AT ME ! This page went nuts 'rolled ' etc and i think maybe a post or spun out.....Sorry

 

[Brother Mike]

Rev 1:9 I John, who also am your brother, and companion in tribulation, and in the kingdom and patience of Jesus Christ, was in the isle that is called Patmos, for the word of God, and for the testimony of Jesus Christ.

Yes, and There is some history somewhere that they tried to boil him in oil. It may be interesting but we Know John was on a Island off the West coast of Turkey. That is what we know.

Tertullian Wrote
John was brought to Rome before Emperor Domitian and thrown in a vat of boiling oil and came out unharmed.

He was also thought to be the first guy to use the Greek Word for 3 or concept of Trinity this before the Nicene council.
His version was rejected by Rome.

As interesting as that is

Rev 1:9 I John, who also am your brother, and companion in tribulation, and in the kingdom and patience of Jesus Christ, was in the isle that is called Patmos, for the word of God, and for the testimony of Jesus Christ.

John tells us he went to the Island for the Word of God and Testimony of Jesus. This does not denote being banished there as told by Tertullian.

Mike.

 

[reba]

a good part of your post is not Scripture but history how do you justify using history to prove or disprove anything?

Makes great stories but we are discussing the Word here, not stories or secular History.

The Word tells us John was on an island...

Rev 1:9 I John, who also am your brother, and companion in tribulation, and in the kingdom and patience of Jesus Christ, was in the isle that is called Patmos, for the word of God, and for the testimony of Jesus Christ.

This is my post

 

[Brother Mike]

a good part of your post is not Scripture but history how do you justify using history to prove or disprove anything?

What???

I gave the History and who gave it. I did not use history to prove a thing. I quoted your scripture because in that Scripture John said he was on the Island for the Word of God not banned there like the history says. I did that so I would not have to look up the scripture again.

So I gave the History, where it came from and told you that Scripture does not coincide with the History of John Being boiled and banished to the Island.

Are you even reading everything?

Mike.

 

[reba]

a good part of your post is not Scripture but history how do you justify using history to prove or disprove anything?

What???

I gave the History and who gave it. I did not use history to prove a thing. I quoted your scripture because in that Scripture John said he was on the Island for the Word of God not banned there like the history says. I did that so I would not have to look up the scripture again.

So I gave the History, where it came from and told you that Scripture does not coincide with the History of John Being boiled and banished to the Island.

Are you even reading everything?

Mike.

Yes Mike i read it i read it a few times . I will not do that again i believe you are smart and get the point. You will if you choose to... If you say scripture only your testimony which is powerful and full of Grace, is not Scripture.

 

[Brother Mike]

Yes Mike i read it i read it a few times . I will not do that again i believe you are smart and get the point. You will if you choose to... If you say scripture only your testimony which is powerful and full of Grace, is not Scripture.

I will have to admit, you lost me on this one. I just believe John went to the Island for the Word of God. All the rest is just conjecture. That is scripture, but I don't understand what your getting at.

Mike.

 

[turnorburn]

I didn't know reba smoked cigars i know Charles Spurgeon did..totopic

tob

 

[n2thelight]

n2thelight;851297]Matthew 24:3 "And as He sat upon the mount of Olives the disciples came unto Him privately, saying, "Tell us, when shall these things be and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?

Question about the above verse.....

Would it be correct for me to say,the answers Christ gives concerning that verse,is intended for the tribulation saints?

I ask because,why would the answers concern those in Christ,if they were not going to be here?

JLB had brought this up already and you can find my response to it somewhere in the forums. Jesus was speaking to the 12 Privately and they asked him what the end of the World (Aion) age would be.

Anything in the Word should be our interest, Left behind to fight the forces of Evil or removed to avoid the mess God makes of this planet. Jesus said he prayed for the 12 and those that believe on their Word, so If Matthew wrote something by the Holy Spirit, then it's for everyone that will believe.

Peter had a great ministry to the Jewish People and Paul had a great ministry to the gentiles. Both groups need the same information. Saved is saved, Jew or Gentile.

Jesus also spoke often to his disciples privately and that would apply to us and anyone else that will believe it.

We still have the matter though of you finding Michael to be the one to throw Satan out of Heaven which there is no scripture. You say that boldly and it does say Satan was cast out but by whom is speculation.

You say Michael is the restrainer according to Rev 12. If that is true that makes it a future event and Salvation, anointing, Strength, The Kingdom of God, authority over spirits have also yet to come.

Or

Jesus has to remove those things from us, leave and forsake us then come back and bring them once again.

Paul told you who the Restrainer was, it's what the whole article is about and it's about the Lord Jesus and us being gathered together by Him. Paul did not switch to mean Michael, never mentioned Michael, and Michael is not holding sin back and letting the Mystery of iniquity work.

Michael is just a Angel............

It's the body of Christ, the Light and salt of the earth, The Lords anointed body that is holding darkness back. The body Jesus said the gates of Hell can't prevail. It's that body that must be removed and Michael is not holding a thing back, the scripture says He must be taken out of the way. Not He must let go of the devil or He must whatever your thought line was on this.

N2thelight, every single scripture must line up with no contradictions. We don't make things up either or add to the Word.

We don't take one scripture and make a Doctrine out of it, so If Holy Spirit really used some action Verb like parapiptō (Apostatize) We still don't have from what, we still don't have any other scripture saying the Church as a whole will Apostatize, we don't have the number it will take.

If you understand simple English even then the Greek Female noun Apostasia should have at least raised some question for you. It just means to depart from a previous standing, it's how it was used in Ancient Greek literature. It's Verb that made the Word just means to depart used 15 times in the NT..

You should question these things, don't let something you want to believe cloud what is actually there. I don't really care, Pre or Post trib, but whatever one it is, the Word has to line up and I have enough sense to know that a Female Greek Noun can not also define the object it interacts with.

Like Faith............ It's a Female Greek noun. It can not tell you faith in what. Shipwreck faith, great faith, Faith in other Gods, Faith it will rain today.

Jesus presents a Glorious church without spot or wrinkle...... Paul Nor Jesus said the Church would fail in any way.

Lets not make things up and consider the other scriptures.

Mike

Matthew 24:3 "And as He sat upon the mount of Olives the disciples came unto Him privately, saying, "Tell us, when shall these things be and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?"

So what would you have us do with the sign of His coming?Or are you like the preterist who claim He came already, don't think you are,so you can't have it both ways.....Meaning the signs were for us,those living to see His return........

As for who the restrainer,the below may help you out a little more,if not,nothing more I can do....

Michael The “Restrainer”
MICHAEL—-the mysterious “restrainer” of

II Thessalonians 2

2 Thess 2:7-8

7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.

• who is this “restrainer” of II Thess. 2:7?

8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:

• NT:2722—–”letteth will let” = “he who restrains”katecho (kat-ekh’-o); from NT:2596 and
• NT:2192; to hold down (fast), in various applications (literally or figuratively):

Rev 12:6-12
6 And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she hath a place prepared of God, that they should feed her there a thousand two hundred and threescore days.
7 And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,

8 And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven.
9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.
10 And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.
11 And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.
12 Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them.
Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time.
OT:5975 ——cease

`amad (aw-mad’); a primitive root; to stand, in various relations (literal and figurative, intransitive and transitive):

KJV – abide (behind), appoint, arise, cease, confirm, continue, dwell, be employed, endure, establish, leave, make, ordain, be [over], place, (be) present (self), raise up, remain, repair, + serve, set (forth, over, -tle, up), (make to, make to be at a, with-) stand (by, fast, firm, still, up), (be at a) stay (up), tarry.

Dan 12:1-2

12:1 And at that time shall Michael stand up ["AMAD" cease], the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.

• Michael has cast Satan to the Earth
• When Michael “ceases [amad]“, the Great Tribulation begins.

2 Thess 2:5-12
5 Don’t you remember that when I was with you I used to tell you these things?
6 “And now you know what is holding him back, so that he may be revealed at the proper time.”

7 For the secret power of lawlessness is already at work;
“but the one who now holds it back will continue to do so till he is taken out of the way.”

8 And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord Jesus will overthrow with the breath of his mouth and destroy by the splendor of his coming. 9 The coming of the lawless one will be in accordance with the work of Satan displayed in all kinds of counterfeit miracles, signs and wonders, 10 and in every sort of evil that deceives those who are perishing. They perish because they refused to love the truth and so be saved. 11 For this reason God sends them a powerful delusion so that they will believe the lie 12 and so that all will be condemned who have not believed the truth but have delighted in wickedness.

• It is MICHAEL, the guardian angel of Israel, who constrains the dragon/ Satan in the realm of angels till the command is given of God to “AMAD” [stand down----cease] as the Devil is cast into the earth and it is proclaimed—–”woe to the inhabitants of the earth for the Devil is thrown down to be among you”——and the Great Tribulation begins.Rev 12:7-10— 7. And there was war in heaven.
• Michael and his angels fought against the dragon, and the dragon and his angels fought back. 8 But he was not strong enough, and they lost their place in heaven. 9 The great dragon was hurled down-that ancient serpent called the devil, or Satan, who leads the whole world astray. He was hurled to the earth, and his angels with him.

http://www.againstallheresy.com/bible-prophecy/michael-the-restrainer/

This is future,no question about it...............