the rapture???

[Dorothy Mae]

Okay let's keep playing ,did Christ have a flesh body before being born of woman ?

No, I have stopped. You have very strange view of these matters.

 

[n2thelight]

Where is his body (bones included) that was in the grave? You need to answer this and not drop chaff.

Dorothy He was transfigured

 

[n2thelight]

No, I have stopped. You have very strange view of these matters.

Not strange , scripture

 

[Dorothy Mae]

Dorothy He was transfigured

The transfiguration happened before he died. The Resurrection happened afterwards.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

Not strange , scripture

Not at all. But let's move on.

 

[n2thelight]

The transfiguration happened before he died. The Resurrection happened afterwards.

Okay so what body did Moses have ?

 

[n2thelight]

Not at all. But let's move on.

Okay I'll just leave this , and I'll letitgo , had satan not rebelled we would had never been made flesh

 

[Blade]

And he will send out his angels with the mighty blast of a trumpet, and they will gather his chosen ones from all over the world—from the farthest ends of the earth and heaven.
Matthew 24:31 NLT

Well if we compare both 1st Thess and Matt 24 we find they kinda match yet don't. What they really mean does not come for God but man. Not going to dive in.. Its hard to discuss when one is being told what that verse is really saying when God never told us. There is a word in the bible that means "To seize, snatch, obtain by robbery.

Heres just one translation for the word harpagesometha "shall be caught away". This sudden snatching away to meet the lord is often referred to as the "rapture". Some try to belittle this word and say we should not use it because its not in the bible. In-depth study shows, however, there is justification for using it. The Greek word used here meant "to seize". Then, it came to mean "to snatch up forcibly". It was used of robbers snatching up whatever they wanted to steal, or of an eagle snatching up its prey. Paul used it of being caught up to the third heaven 2 Cor 12:2

The Greek word was translated into the Latin by raptus. From this comes our English words rapt and rapture. Today those words usually speak of being carried away emotionally or spiritually,. But one meaning of rapt in current dictionaries is "lifted up and carried away." Thus it is perfectly good English to translate this verse, "Then we which are alive and remain shall be rapt (or raptured) together with them in the clouds". A force far beyond gravity, a supernatural power far greater then the rockets that lift astronauts in to space, will suddenly snatch us into the air for a meeting with Jesus. Meeting is a word often used in connection with the coming parousia of a king, emperor, or governor to visit a city.

What Christ said in Matt 24 will happen. What the holy Spirit said through our brother Paul will happen. Yeah go for it.. tell God He can't do that. Well only if its one or two people like in the OT. But many? No.. I just can't believe that. If your not promised tomorrow is it not wise to be ready to be watching now? We forget when they asked Christ if He will now rule He said It is not for you to know the times or the seasons, which the Father hath put in his own power. Yet here we are talking about what? As if we know.. will since I don't and I will not tell anyone pre mid post are true since I can't find a verse for any of those. I watch ready now. What no believer can for fact tell you is if your not watching you don't believe and Christ came now you would go anyway. They can only tell you what they personally believe. We know this....

 

[ezrider]

Okay I'll just leave this , and I'll letitgo , had satan not rebelled we would had never been made flesh

Where is it written in the scripture that Satan actually rebelled?

 

[n2thelight]

Well if we compare both 1st Thess and Matt 24 we find they kinda match yet don't. What they really mean does not come for God but man. Not going to dive in.. Its hard to discuss when one is being told what that verse is really saying when God never told us. There is a word in the bible that means "To seize, snatch, obtain by robbery.

Heres just one translation for the word harpagesometha "shall be caught away". This sudden snatching away to meet the lord is often referred to as the "rapture". Some try to belittle this word and say we should not use it because its not in the bible. In-depth study shows, however, there is justification for using it. The Greek word used here meant "to seize". Then, it came to mean "to snatch up forcibly". It was used of robbers snatching up whatever they wanted to steal, or of an eagle snatching up its prey. Paul used it of being caught up to the third heaven 2 Cor 12:2

The Greek word was translated into the Latin by raptus. From this comes our English words rapt and rapture. Today those words usually speak of being carried away emotionally or spiritually,. But one meaning of rapt in current dictionaries is "lifted up and carried away." Thus it is perfectly good English to translate this verse, "Then we which are alive and remain shall be rapt (or raptured) together with them in the clouds". A force far beyond gravity, a supernatural power far greater then the rockets that lift astronauts in to space, will suddenly snatch us into the air for a meeting with Jesus. Meeting is a word often used in connection with the coming parousia of a king, emperor, or governor to visit a city.

What Christ said in Matt 24 will happen. What the holy Spirit said through our brother Paul will happen. Yeah go for it.. tell God He can't do that. Well only if its one or two people like in the OT. But many? No.. I just can't believe that. If your not promised tomorrow is it not wise to be ready to be watching now? We forget when they asked Christ if He will now rule He said It is not for you to know the times or the seasons, which the Father hath put in his own power. Yet here we are talking about what? As if we know.. will since I don't and I will not tell anyone pre mid post are true since I can't find a verse for any of those. I watch ready now. What no believer can for fact tell you is if your not watching you don't believe and Christ came now you would go anyway. They can only tell you what they personally believe. We know this....

No, not kind of they match , as a matter of fact ,the 2nd witness to Matt 24 being Mark 13 ,gives you the seals of Revelations.

Mark 13:4 "Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign when all these things shall be fulfilled?"​ This marks the subject for the entire chapter. Now Jesus is going to tell us the seven seals what will take place before His second advent. These seven seals are the equivalent of the seven trumpets, and the seven plagues. The seals are not in order, however the seven trumpet of Revelation mark the order that the events will come to pass. The "sound of the trumpet" is the sound that executes the order of the event that shall take place. It is God's order of the happenings at the end of this earth age of the flesh. The seals are not in order, but are given in such a way that the deceiver himself is put in the foreground, to where we can understand completely through the seals. It is the deceiver himself that causes the confusion that take place. Jesus is now going to tell us the events that take place when the end will come. Compare the seals of Revelation to Mark 13​

 

[n2thelight]

Where is it written in the scripture that Satan actually rebelled?

Research it

 

[ezrider]

Research it

I did, I can't find it. That's why I asked you.

 

[n2thelight]

I did, I can't find it. That's why I asked you.

I'm sorry for that , do forgive me. Let's start in the beginning ,it's one word in there that was mistranslated

Genesis 1:1 "In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth."

There are two bodies mentioned in this verse; the heaven and the earth. It simply stated a fact and left the time factor out. The verse not only did not say when, but left it totally to our imagination, as to the eternal span of time, and how the creation took place.

Now here's the mistranslation

Genesis 1:2 "And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep."

Who is that Spirit of God? He is the Holy Spirit, and it is God's Spirit that moved upon the face of the waters.

In the Hebrew translation of the word, "was", as used in this verse "...the earth was without form,..."; in the original text it reads "became without form...". This same mistranslation of the word "became", and turning it into the word "was" is also present in Genesis 2:7. It should read there; "..and man became a living soul."

was
1961 hayah
hayah (haw-yaw); a primitive root [compare OT:1933]; to exist, i.e. be or become, come to pass (always emphatic, and not a mere copula or auxiliary):KJV - beacon, altogether, be (-come), accomplished, committed, like), break, cause, come (to pass), do, faint, fall, follow, happen, have, last, pertain, quit (oneself-), require, use.

void
922
bohuw (bo'-hoo); from an unused root (meaning to be empty); a vacuity, i.e. (superficially) an undistinguishable ruin:
KJV - emptiness, void.
The correct Hebrew translation from the Massoretic Hebrew text for the words, "without form" is "tohu-va bohu" in the Hebrew Strong's dictionary. So we see that the earth was not "created without form", but it "became [tohu] without form and void". Lets go to Strong's Hebrew dictionary, reference number 1961 to verify the word "was", that we read in this verse. "Yahah, haw-yaw; a prime root, to exit; to become, or come to pass." [#1961]


Excerpt from The Companion Bible Appendix 8:

The word "without form" (Hebrew tohu) is used of a subsequent event which, we know not how long after the Creation, befell the primitive creation of Genesis 1:1. It occurs in Genesis 1:2. Deuteronomy 32:10. 1Samuel 12:21 (twice). Job 6:18; 12:24; 26:7. Psalm 107:40. Isaiah 24:10; 29:21; 34:11; 40:17, 23; 41:29; 44:9; 45:18, 19; 49:4; 59:4. Jeremiah 4:23.

The Hebrew bohu, rendered "void", means desolate, and occurs in Genesis 1:2. Isaiah 34:11. Jeremiah 4:23. The two words together occur in Genesis 1:2. Isaiah 34:11. Jeremiah 4:23.

end Companion Bible excerpt
"Tohu" of the earth, then means that total destruction had come to pass upon the earth. The second "was" in the verse is in italics type because there is no verb "to be" in the Hebrew language. One of the problems in translating the Hebrew into English is that the verb, "to be" is not distinguished from the verb, "to become".

At the end of Genesis 1:1 the first earth age ceased to exist in its previous form. God created the earth to be inhabited, and then He destroyed it. There was an entire earth age that existed between verses one and two of Genesis. This first earth age is spoken of in II Peter, Jeremiah, Proverbs, and Jude.

If you can grasp the above ,you must ask yourself ,why did the earth ,(not was) but became void and without form .

Therein lies the rebellion of satan ,will explain next post

 

[ezrider]

I'm sorry for that , do forgive me. Let's start in the beginning ,it's one word in there that was mistranslated

Genesis 1:1 "In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth."

There are two bodies mentioned in this verse; the heaven and the earth. It simply stated a fact and left the time factor out. The verse not only did not say when, but left it totally to our imagination, as to the eternal span of time, and how the creation took place.

Now here's the mistranslation

Genesis 1:2 "And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep."

Who is that Spirit of God? He is the Holy Spirit, and it is God's Spirit that moved upon the face of the waters.

In the Hebrew translation of the word, "was", as used in this verse "...the earth was without form,..."; in the original text it reads "became without form...". This same mistranslation of the word "became", and turning it into the word "was" is also present in Genesis 2:7. It should read there; "..and man became a living soul."

was
1961 hayah
hayah (haw-yaw); a primitive root [compare OT:1933]; to exist, i.e. be or become, come to pass (always emphatic, and not a mere copula or auxiliary):KJV - beacon, altogether, be (-come), accomplished, committed, like), break, cause, come (to pass), do, faint, fall, follow, happen, have, last, pertain, quit (oneself-), require, use.

void
922
bohuw (bo'-hoo); from an unused root (meaning to be empty); a vacuity, i.e. (superficially) an undistinguishable ruin:
KJV - emptiness, void.
The correct Hebrew translation from the Massoretic Hebrew text for the words, "without form" is "tohu-va bohu" in the Hebrew Strong's dictionary. So we see that the earth was not "created without form", but it "became [tohu] without form and void". Lets go to Strong's Hebrew dictionary, reference number 1961 to verify the word "was", that we read in this verse. "Yahah, haw-yaw; a prime root, to exit; to become, or come to pass." [#1961]


Excerpt from The Companion Bible Appendix 8:

The word "without form" (Hebrew tohu) is used of a subsequent event which, we know not how long after the Creation, befell the primitive creation of Genesis 1:1. It occurs in Genesis 1:2. Deuteronomy 32:10. 1Samuel 12:21 (twice). Job 6:18; 12:24; 26:7. Psalm 107:40. Isaiah 24:10; 29:21; 34:11; 40:17, 23; 41:29; 44:9; 45:18, 19; 49:4; 59:4. Jeremiah 4:23.

The Hebrew bohu, rendered "void", means desolate, and occurs in Genesis 1:2. Isaiah 34:11. Jeremiah 4:23. The two words together occur in Genesis 1:2. Isaiah 34:11. Jeremiah 4:23.

end Companion Bible excerpt
"Tohu" of the earth, then means that total destruction had come to pass upon the earth. The second "was" in the verse is in italics type because there is no verb "to be" in the Hebrew language. One of the problems in translating the Hebrew into English is that the verb, "to be" is not distinguished from the verb, "to become".

At the end of Genesis 1:1 the first earth age ceased to exist in its previous form. God created the earth to be inhabited, and then He destroyed it. There was an entire earth age that existed between verses one and two of Genesis. This first earth age is spoken of in II Peter, Jeremiah, Proverbs, and Jude.

If you can grasp the above ,you must ask yourself ,why did the earth ,(not was) but became void and without form .

Therein lies the rebellion of satan ,will explain next post

I'm sorry, I have no intention in wasting any more of your time trying to explain. I am well aware of the teachings of Arnold Murray and the Shepherd's Chapel. It's that beyond all the different doctrines that exist, I can't seem to find any specific scripture that specifically states that Satan rebelled against God. The only scripture that I am aware of that addresses Satan in some manner is in the book of Jude where we learn we ought take care about bring railing against the devil.

Jude 1:9
Yet Michael the archangel, when contending with the devil he disputed about the body of Moses, durst not bring against him a railing accusation, but said, The Lord rebuke thee.


If we are accusing Satan of rebellion when there is no scripture that is evident to support it, then what does that make us? In Revelation 12 Satan is called the accuser of the brethren. In John 5 Jesus tells us we have one accuser, even Moses who we trust, which represented the Law.

So when it comes to rebellion, as it is relative to the accuser: Is the Law in rebellion with God?

Romans 7
But now we are delivered from the law, that being dead wherein we were held; that we should serve in newness of spirit, and not in the oldness of the letter.
What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet. But sin, taking occasion by the commandment, wrought in me all manner of concupiscence. For without the law sin was dead. For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died. And the commandment, which was ordained to life, I found to be unto death. For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me, and by it slew me. Wherefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good.


I tend to see a correlation between Satan and Moses, both referred to as the accuser of the brethren. Moses lifted up a Serpent. But it is from the Law that sin and accusation come. If I could not say to myself that the Law has rebelled against God, then how should I bring accusation against Satan of rebelling, except unless I find it explicitly stated as such in the scripture? I hope you understand. Sorry if I wasted your time.

 

[ezrider]

JLB, for_his_glory,

Starting at post #329, I asked n2thelight a question that is not really related to the topic of the OP, but it is a question I am genuinely interested in. Could you please move our subsequent posts to a new thread called "Satan's Rebellion?" Thanks.

 

[n2thelight]

I'm sorry, I have no intention in wasting any more of your time trying to explain. I am well aware of the teachings of Arnold Murray and the Shepherd's Chapel. It's that beyond all the different doctrines that exist, I can't seem to find any specific scripture that specifically states that Satan rebelled against God. The only scripture that I am aware of that addresses Satan in some manner is in the book of Jude where we learn we ought take care about bring railing against the devil.

Jude 1:9
Yet Michael the archangel, when contending with the devil he disputed about the body of Moses, durst not bring against him a railing accusation, but said, The Lord rebuke thee.


If we are accusing Satan of rebellion when there is no scripture that is evident to support it, then what does that make us? In Revelation 12 Satan is called the accuser of the brethren. In John 5 Jesus tells us we have one accuser, even Moses who we trust, which represented the Law.

So when it comes to rebellion, as it is relative to the accuser: Is the Law in rebellion with God?

Romans 7
But now we are delivered from the law, that being dead wherein we were held; that we should serve in newness of spirit, and not in the oldness of the letter.
What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet. But sin, taking occasion by the commandment, wrought in me all manner of concupiscence. For without the law sin was dead. For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died. And the commandment, which was ordained to life, I found to be unto death. For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me, and by it slew me. Wherefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good.


I tend to see a correlation between Satan and Moses, both referred to as the accuser of the brethren. Moses lifted up a Serpent. But it is from the Law that sin and accusation come. If I could not say to myself that the Law has rebelled against God, then how should I bring accusation against Satan of rebelling, except unless I find it explicitly stated as such in the scripture? I hope you understand. Sorry if I wasted your time.

Although I do study with the Shepherds Chapel , this is not his teaching ,however they are related ,meaning I see what he taught that's in scripture .

Again I will address the overthrow . I will start that topic

 

[for_his_glory]

JLB, for_his_glory,

Starting at post #329, I asked n2thelight a question that is not really related to the topic of the OP, but it is a question I am genuinely interested in. Could you please move our subsequent posts to a new thread called "Satan's Rebellion?" Thanks.

It looks like n2thelight is going to start that new thread.

 

[for_his_glory]

Although I do study with the Shepherds Chapel , this is not his teaching ,however they are related ,meaning I see what he taught that's in scripture .

Again I will address the overthrow . I will start that topic

Make sure you tag ezrider into the new thread so the two of you can continue your discussion. Thank you.

 

[for_his_glory]

Although I do study with the Shepherds Chapel ,

At least now I now where you are coming from as you follow a false doctrine of man.

Shepherding Movement known today as University Bible Fellowship is a false religion.

Founders of the Shepherding Movement were Don Basham, Bob Mumford, Derick Prince, Charles Simpson and Erin Baxter

These five “anointed” men began to teach on authority, submission, and discipleship. The doctrine that reshaped the charismatic community was that every individual must be submitted to another person and that all major life decisions should be submitted to a “shepherd or pastor”. It became a system in which elders or “shepherds” acted as spiritual leaders responsible for the entire church. Individual church members were assigned to specific elders and were “submitted” to them. Over time, a religious system developed in which a blind obedience to “man” was promoted.

Another doctrine that these leaders emphasized was “Covenant” relationships or “Spiritual Family”. When one entered into a discipleship relationship, it was permanent, as was one’s association with a group of believers. Members were in a “Covenant” with one another. If someone left the relationship or the fellowship group, they were breaking a covenant. These kinds of religious systems often place more emphasis on one’s “spiritual family” than one’s natural family. If a misguided shepherd is in charge of such a system, cult-like behavior is the logical result.


The end result of shepherding is that it puts the submissive person in a position of having two masters – Jesus Christ and a personal shepherd. Over time the shepherd gains more power and control over the one being shepherded, and Jesus Christ is terribly overshadowed. In other words, shepherding becomes nothing more than an idolatrous religious system. Unfortunately, all kinds of abuse resulted from the shepherding movement. Extensive documentation exists describing the abuses that took place. In hindsight, what started out as a method of accountability morphed into a system of enslaved people.


As time went by, the fruit of these doctrines became obvious to charismatic leaders outside the movement. Some of these leaders confronted the “Five” in what has been called the “Shootout at the Curtis Hotel.” The Fort Lauderdale Five eventually parted company, and Derek Prince and Bob Mumford distanced themselves from the teaching. Derek Prince, who withdrew in 1983, explained publicly that “we were guilty of the Galatian error: having begun in the Spirit, we quickly regenerated into the flesh.” Bob Mumford issued a “Formal Repentance Statement to the Body of Christ” in 1990 and was quoted as saying: “Discipleship was wrong. I repent. I ask forgiveness.”

DEREK PRINCE FALSE TEACHER WOLF IN SHEEP’S CLOTHING!!!

THE SHEPHERDING MOVEMENT HERESY Derek Prince (1915-2003), was a well-known Bible teacher and author and founder of Derek Prince Ministries...

bewareofthewolves.blogspot.com

 

[n2thelight]

At least now I now where you are coming from as you follow a false doctrine of man.

Shepherding Movement known today as University Bible Fellowship is a false religion.

Founders of the Shepherding Movement were Don Basham, Bob Mumford, Derick Prince, Charles Simpson and Erin Baxter

These five “anointed” men began to teach on authority, submission, and discipleship. The doctrine that reshaped the charismatic community was that every individual must be submitted to another person and that all major life decisions should be submitted to a “shepherd or pastor”. It became a system in which elders or “shepherds” acted as spiritual leaders responsible for the entire church. Individual church members were assigned to specific elders and were “submitted” to them. Over time, a religious system developed in which a blind obedience to “man” was promoted.

Another doctrine that these leaders emphasized was “Covenant” relationships or “Spiritual Family”. When one entered into a discipleship relationship, it was permanent, as was one’s association with a group of believers. Members were in a “Covenant” with one another. If someone left the relationship or the fellowship group, they were breaking a covenant. These kinds of religious systems often place more emphasis on one’s “spiritual family” than one’s natural family. If a misguided shepherd is in charge of such a system, cult-like behavior is the logical result.


The end result of shepherding is that it puts the submissive person in a position of having two masters – Jesus Christ and a personal shepherd. Over time the shepherd gains more power and control over the one being shepherded, and Jesus Christ is terribly overshadowed. In other words, shepherding becomes nothing more than an idolatrous religious system. Unfortunately, all kinds of abuse resulted from the shepherding movement. Extensive documentation exists describing the abuses that took place. In hindsight, what started out as a method of accountability morphed into a system of enslaved people.


As time went by, the fruit of these doctrines became obvious to charismatic leaders outside the movement. Some of these leaders confronted the “Five” in what has been called the “Shootout at the Curtis Hotel.” The Fort Lauderdale Five eventually parted company, and Derek Prince and Bob Mumford distanced themselves from the teaching. Derek Prince, who withdrew in 1983, explained publicly that “we were guilty of the Galatian error: having begun in the Spirit, we quickly regenerated into the flesh.” Bob Mumford issued a “Formal Repentance Statement to the Body of Christ” in 1990 and was quoted as saying: “Discipleship was wrong. I repent. I ask forgiveness.”

DEREK PRINCE FALSE TEACHER WOLF IN SHEEP’S CLOTHING!!!

THE SHEPHERDING MOVEMENT HERESY Derek Prince (1915-2003), was a well-known Bible teacher and author and founder of Derek Prince Ministries...

bewareofthewolves.blogspot.com

You say I follow a false doctrine of man ,yet giving me opinions of men

Pastor Murray and the Shepherds Chapel are the first I've EVER heard that taught scripture line by line and verse by verse ,that was more than 30 years ago

Don't know anything about no sheepherding movement ,but if it's anything you find wrong with his (Pastor Murray}teaching I would gladly engage you.

I follow no man , only thus says the scripture .

Just looked at the link , who the heck is Derrick Pence ,dang sure ain't who I study with, try again .(edited}