The Rapture

[for_his_glory]

I can't agree with you on this. There are two events. One event, Jesus comes for His Bride to take her to the place that He has prepared for her. The 2nd event Jesus comes to put down evil and set up His millenial reign.

Revelation 16:15
15 “Look, I will come as unexpectedly as a thief! Blessed are all who are watching for me, who keep their clothing ready so they will not have to walk around naked and ashamed.”.../NLT

Revelation 1:7
7 Look! He comes with the clouds of heaven.
And everyone will see him—
even those who pierced him.
And all the nations of the world
will mourn for him.
Yes! Amen.../NLT

Consider both of those verses. How can He come like a thief in the night, and every eye see Him, at the same time? Which one is it?

Or could it be that these verses are talking about two events?

I got my notes now! I'm reaady...

How many more scriptures would you like, I thik I have them all. I remember that when I posted that two hour video about the rapture, that you said it was too long for you to watch. I found a different video where the man explains it in less than 1 hour. I could post that video for you if you like, or, I can simply discuss it and post you my scriptures. Is 1 hour too long?

None of those scriptures you gave says anything about a pretrib Rapture of the Church or that Christ returns twice.

I'm not trying to convince you of anything, but showing what scripture already says about the coming of the Lord. I could give many more scriptures, but I would think these ones would be enough to show that Christ does not return twice as those money making Left Behind movies and books portray in a quiet secret Rapture, but returns only once on the last day with a great noise of the sound of a trumpet as He sends His angels out to the four corners of the earth to catch all of us up that are His own to meet Him in the air and will ever more be with Him. If there were no other scriptures other then that of Matthew 24:29-31 then we would see the signs Jesus gave us to watch for in His return on the last day.

Mat 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
Mat 24:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
Mat 24:31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Mat 24:36 But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only.
Mat 24:37 But as the days of Noe were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
Mat 24:38 For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark,
Mat 24:39 And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

Mat 24:42 Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come.
Mat 24:43 But know this, that if the goodman of the house had known in what watch the thief would come, he would have watched, and would not have suffered his house to be broken up.
Mat 24:44 Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh.

1Th 5:1 But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you.
1Th 5:2 For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.
1Th 5:3 For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.
1Th 5:4 But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief.
1Th 5:5 Ye are all the children of light, and the children of the day: we are not of the night, nor of darkness.

 

[JLB]

We know this because we meet the Lord in the air, and we don't come right back down again with Him on the Mt of Olives!

Where does it say that we don’t continue with Him to the mount of Olives?

Here is 1 Thessalonians 4:13-5:4.

Lets let the scriptures themselves teach us.


But I do not want you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning those who have fallen asleep, lest you sorrow as others who have no hope. For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who sleep in Jesus.
For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep. For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord. Therefore comfort one another with these words. But concerning the times and the seasons, brethren, you have no need that I should write to you. For you yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so comes as a thief in the night. For when they say, “Peace and safety!” then sudden destruction comes upon them, as labor pains upon a pregnant woman. And they shall not escape. But you, brethren, are not in darkness, so that this Day should overtake you as a thief. 1 Thessalonians 4:13-5:4

• even so God will bring with Him those who sleep in Jesus.v.14

At the resurrection and rapture God will bring with Jesus those who are in heaven that have died. This is Jesus coming with the Church as well as, for the Church. He comes with the dead in Christ in heaven, in which they will receive their resurrected bodies, and He is coming for those who are alive and remain; the rapture.

• For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep. v.15

Plainly the resurrection and rapture takes place at the coming of the Lord. This is a no brainer when you study the passages about the coming (Parousia) of the Lord. We see the resurrection is associated with the coming of the Lord. By studying when the resurrection takes place we see that it takes place at the end of the age, on the last day.

Strong's G3952 - parousia​

1. presence
2. the coming, arrival, advent
   1. the future visible return from heaven of Jesus, to raise the dead, hold the last judgment, and set up formally and gloriously the kingdom of God

• For this we say to you by the word of the Lord

Verse 15 also teaches us this is a direct teaching from the Lord Himself and is exactly what He taught His disciples in Matthew 24.

• For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. v.16

Notice again how the resurrection comes before the rapture. This fact alone is enough to teach us that the resurrection and rapture occur on the last day.

No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up at the last day. John 6:44

Then they will see the Son of Man coming in the clouds with great power and glory. And then He will send His angels, and gather together His elect from the four winds, from the farthest part of earth to the farthest part of heaven. Mark 13:26-27

• from the farthest part of earth to the farthest part of heaven.

This is the coming of the Lord where He gathers together His Church; those in heaven and those on earth.

• Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. v.17

Notice the resurrection and rapture are one event that takes place at His coming. Those who are resurrected and those who are raptured are gathered together high above the earth in the clouds with the Lord.


Guess what happens next?

The wicked are destroyed from the earth, because this is the day of the Lord.

• But concerning the times and the seasons, brethren, you have no need that I should write to you. For you yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so comes as a thief in the night. For when they say,“Peace and safety!” then sudden destruction comes upon them, 1 Thessalonians 5:1-3

Last point (sorry for long post) —

• But you, brethren, are not in darkness, so that this Day should overtake you as a thief. v.4

The Day of the Lord will not come as a thief in the night for the Church, but it will come as a thief in the night for the wicked.




JLB

 

[JLB]

"Glorified bodies" is not in the Bible.
Only spirit being exist in Heaven.

Jesus is in heaven with a glorified body.

Our bodies will be raised from the dead, and changed to a glorious body that is immortal and shines like the sun.


Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; nor does corruption inherit incorruption. Behold, I tell you a mystery: We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed— in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. 1 Corinthians 15:50-53

 

[for_his_glory]

"Glorified bodies" is not in the Bible.
Only spirit being exist in Heaven.

John 3:13 And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.

John 3:13 makes it very clear in what Jesus said. (not going to get into Elijah or Enoch as that needs to be another thread)

We receive new glorified bodies before we are caught up to Christ on the last day as flesh and blood can not inherit the kingdom of God.

1Cor 15:42 So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption:
1Cor 15:43 It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power:
1Cor 15:44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.

Php 3:21 Who shall change our vile body, that it may be fashioned like unto his glorious body, according to the working whereby he is able even to subdue all things unto himself.

1John 3:2 Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.

 

[Edward]

Where does it say that we don’t continue with Him to the mount of Olives?

Here is 1 Thessalonians 4:13-5:4.

Lets let the scriptures themselves teach us.


But I do not want you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning those who have fallen asleep, lest you sorrow as others who have no hope. For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who sleep in Jesus.
For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep. For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord. Therefore comfort one another with these words. But concerning the times and the seasons, brethren, you have no need that I should write to you. For you yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so comes as a thief in the night. For when they say, “Peace and safety!” then sudden destruction comes upon them, as labor pains upon a pregnant woman. And they shall not escape. But you, brethren, are not in darkness, so that this Day should overtake you as a thief. 1 Thessalonians 4:13-5:4

• even so God will bring with Him those who sleep in Jesus.v.14

At the resurrection and rapture God will bring with Jesus those who are in heaven that have died. This is Jesus coming with the Church as well as, for the Church. He comes with the dead in Christ in heaven, in which they will receive their resurrected bodies, and He is coming for those who are alive and remain; the rapture.

• For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep. v.15

Plainly the resurrection and rapture takes place at the coming of the Lord. This is a no brainer when you study the passages about the coming (Parousia) of the Lord. We see the resurrection is associated with the coming of the Lord. By studying when the resurrection takes place we see that it takes place at the end of the age, on the last day.

Strong's G3952 - parousia​

1. presence
2. the coming, arrival, advent
   1. the future visible return from heaven of Jesus, to raise the dead, hold the last judgment, and set up formally and gloriously the kingdom of God

• For this we say to you by the word of the Lord

Verse 15 also teaches us this is a direct teaching from the Lord Himself and is exactly what He taught His disciples in Matthew 24.

• For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. v.16

Notice again how the resurrection comes before the rapture. This fact alone is enough to teach us that the resurrection and rapture occur on the last day.

No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up at the last day. John 6:44

Then they will see the Son of Man coming in the clouds with great power and glory. And then He will send His angels, and gather together His elect from the four winds, from the farthest part of earth to the farthest part of heaven. Mark 13:26-27

• from the farthest part of earth to the farthest part of heaven.

This is the coming of the Lord where He gathers together His Church; those in heaven and those on earth.

• Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. v.17

Notice the resurrection and rapture are one event that takes place at His coming. Those who are resurrected and those who are raptured are gathered together high above the earth in the clouds with the Lord.


Guess what happens next?

The wicked are destroyed from the earth, because this is the day of the Lord.

• But concerning the times and the seasons, brethren, you have no need that I should write to you. For you yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so comes as a thief in the night. For when they say,“Peace and safety!” then sudden destruction comes upon them, 1 Thessalonians 5:1-3

Last point (sorry for long post) —

• But you, brethren, are not in darkness, so that this Day should overtake you as a thief. v.4

The Day of the Lord will not come as a thief in the night for the Church, but it will come as a thief in the night for the wicked.




JLB

Where does it say that we don’t continue with Him to the mount of Olives?

Here is 1 Thessalonians 4:13-5:4.

Lets let the scriptures themselves teach us.

(Found it!) In the OT! The book of Isaiah gives a pretty good picture of the rapture and the tribulation.

Isaiah 16:19-21
19 Your dead shall live;
Together with [k]my dead body they shall arise.
Awake and sing, you who dwell in dust;
For your dew is like the dew of herbs,
And the earth shall cast out the dead.

Take Refuge from the Coming Judgment​

20 Come, my people, enter your chambers,
And shut your doors behind you;
Hide yourself, as it were, for a little moment,
Until the indignation is past.
21 For behold, the Lord comes out of His place
To punish the inhabitants of the earth for their iniquity;.../NKJV

Your dead shall live, they shall arise? This is a rapture scripture.

20 Come, my people (up in the air to meet me!), enter your chambers,
And shut your doors behind you;

Shut your doors behnd you? Whose doors? Oh we've just been raptured by the Lord so...so shall we ever be with the Lord! So tis would have to be in a place that He has prepared for us! Right?! And certainly this place is in heaven.

Hide yourself, as it were, for a little moment,
Until the indignation is past. (The indignation of the Great Tribulation)

21 For behold, the Lord comes out of His place
To punish the inhabitants of the earth for their iniquity.../ That is talking about the great tribulation. :wink

 

[Edward]

You see, the great tribulation is not intended for the church, His Bride. (1 Thessalonians 1:10 Revelation 3:10)

The wrath of God comes upon the earth during the tribulation. His people are not appointed unto wrath.
So even though everyone including the church will have tribulation on earth and suffering. That is such as is common for man. It doesn't the wrath of God upon them like He brings to the earth and pours 7 bowlfuls of His wrath out. But He wont splash any on the Bride! The Bride is not appointed unto wrath.

So while the earth is in the tribulation period, the church is in heaven having a party and a huge BBQ at the Marriage Supper of the lamb! Wow. Now That sounds like something Jesus would do. Jesus does not seem like the type to make a date but oh yeah honey, we have to stop off at a gang fight on the way to dinner...No! I'm sorry, but that seems ludicrous to me.

 

[Edward]

None of those scriptures you gave says anything about a pretrib Rapture of the Church or that Christ returns twice.

I'm not trying to convince you of anything, but showing what scripture already says about the coming of the Lord. I could give many more scriptures, but I would think these ones would be enough to show that Christ does not return twice as those money making Left Behind movies and books portray in a quiet secret Rapture, but returns only once on the last day with a great noise of the sound of a trumpet as He sends His angels out to the four corners of the earth to catch all of us up that are His own to meet Him in the air and will ever more be with Him. If there were no other scriptures other then that of Matthew 24:29-31 then we would see the signs Jesus gave us to watch for in His return on the last day.

Mat 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
Mat 24:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
Mat 24:31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Mat 24:36 But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only.
Mat 24:37 But as the days of Noe were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
Mat 24:38 For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark,
Mat 24:39 And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

Mat 24:42 Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come.
Mat 24:43 But know this, that if the goodman of the house had known in what watch the thief would come, he would have watched, and would not have suffered his house to be broken up.
Mat 24:44 Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh.

1Th 5:1 But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you.
1Th 5:2 For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.
1Th 5:3 For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.
1Th 5:4 But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief.
1Th 5:5 Ye are all the children of light, and the children of the day: we are not of the night, nor of darkness.

We see eye to eye on many things, but can't seem to come into agreement about the rapture. I think it's because there is a difference in our hermunetics (sp?), or how we each interpret the bible and prophecies. How do you interpret prophecy, symbolically or literally? It has to be symbolic for you I think because I tend to interpret it literally. And therin lies our disagreement about the rapture!

Am I right?

 

[Edward]

Do we all agree that when the antichrist signs a 7 year peace treaty with Isreal, that that event starts the tribulation?

there's 7 years of tribulation and Daniel tells us that halfway through it the antichrist does the abpmination of desolation to happen and he declares himself to be god. Then it gets so terrible on the earth for the last half of the tribulation.

So 7 years divided is 3.5 years or 1260 days.
So as soon as the seven year peace treaty is signed with Israel, the tribulation has begun. Then you can mark your calandar 1260 days later to when he will abomination of desolation.

And 1260 days after the abomination of desolation mark your calandar for the return of Jesus!!

There is a lot of prophecy which has to be fulfilled before the coming of Jesus., two witnesses, mark of the beast, wars & famines & pestilences, the abomination of desolation. So Jesus 2nd coming where He puts down His enemies and binds satan for 1000 years is no secret at all!

But, Brothers & Sisters, before that happens, He will secretly snatch away the church, His Bride. And I hope that means you all too!

 

[Dorothy Mae]

We are Spirit too, but our spirit is contained in a human body for the time being .

Edward said a glorified body and that seems to fit because of what we are told in this verse .

1 Corinthians 15​

52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

I see in this verse a suggestion of an "incorruptible body" because we already know a Spirit is not corruptible .

When the dead are raised that is the Resurrection. After that comes the great judgement for all.

 

[for_his_glory]

We see eye to eye on many things, but can't seem to come into agreement about the rapture. I think it's because there is a difference in our hermunetics (sp?), or how we each interpret the bible and prophecies. How do you interpret prophecy, symbolically or literally? It has to be symbolic for you I think because I tend to interpret it literally. And therin lies our disagreement about the rapture!

Am I right?

I see many things being symbolic, but also being literal. God's wrath, being very literal, will fall upon the earth in the last days during the sounding of the seven trumpets before the return of Christ who comes on the last day as God would that none would perish, but turn back to Him in this final warning to repent and turn back to Him, 2Peter 3:1-13. The seven bowl judgements are put upon those who take the mark of the beast being the son of perdition, but those who are still alive at that time and are Christ own He will protect them from the wrath of God affecting and Thessalonians 2:1-12, Rev 13.

We do not enter the Millennial Kingdom here on earth in our natural bodies, but in new glorified bodies, 1 Corinthians 15:51-54. When Christ returns in the air on the last day we are then caught up to meet Him in the air and so shall we ever be with the Lord as He has made us unto our God kings and priests and we shall reign on the earth as we rule with Him over the nations as His enemies have become His footstool in the end of days, John 5:28, 29; 6:40; 1 Thessalonians 4:16-18; Rev 5:10; Psalms 110:1-4; Hebrews 10:12, 13.

Matthew 24:29-31; Rev 19:11-21 Jesus descends down from heaven with His army of the host (angels) of heaven as while remaining in the air He sends His angels out to the four corners of the earth to gather His own to Him. He will destroy the beast and false prophet casting them alive into the lake of fire, Rev 19:15, 16. The remnant in Rev 19:21 are the world leaders of every nation on the earth that have followed after the beast that rules their government. The remnant will be slain by the very words Jesus speaks of their damnation as the fowls will be filled with their flesh and at that time Satan will be chained and bound so he can not interfere with the ungodly people that are still alive on earth that become the footstool of Christ. Then the kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord and of his Christ and He shall reign for ever and the saints will begin to rule over the nations here on earth, Rev 11:15; 5:10; 20:1-3; Matthew 5:5.

Rev 20:7-10 Those that have rejected Christ that still remain on earth after the beast, false prophet and all the ruling leaders from every nation that followed after the beast are destroyed are those who are the numbering as the sand of the sea. These are the enemy of God that Satan uses to battle against the saints during the battle of Armageddon that are camped upon the breadth of the earth after Satan is released for a season, Rev 20:7-10. The saints are camped not only in Jerusalem the beloved city of God, but also throughout the breadth of the earth. It's only the 144,000 generational Jews that believe in Christ that have returned to Jerusalem. After the 1000 years are fulfilled Satan is set loosed for a season and goes out to deceive the nations as he gathers the enemies of Christ to battle against the saints as the numbering of unbelievers is like the sand of the sea. As the enemy surrounds the camp of the saints God sends fire down from heaven and destroys the enemy and Satan is cast into the lake of fire. Zechariah 14; Luke 21:20-22 and Rev 16:16 mentions the battle of Armageddon when Christ and His army of angels return as Christ plants His feet on the mount of Olives for the final battle as Gog and Magog found in Ezekiel Chapter 38 is the battle of Rev 20:7-9.

 

[for_his_glory]

A lot of you might scoff and think this is foolishness, especially those of you that are not in the Lord or allow man to teach you instead of the Holy Spirit, but God said in Daniel 12:4 and Proverbs 10:14 that knowledge would increase more towards the end of days and what God has been revealing to me through the Holy Spirit has been a warning to not be afraid of what must come, but to prepare ourselves to learn how to endure what we are going to have to go through before the return of Christ. Hosea 4:6 says my people perish for lack of knowledge.

Most pastors teach a pretrib rapture, but this is false teaching and not according to what God has already taught us. Matthew 24 shows us exactly what must come first and God said to those who endure until the end of days will be his elect. Daniel 7:23-27; Revelation 13:1-10; Revelation 17; Luke 21:36 are just a few scriptures of God showing us we will go through much tribulation. The Bible mentions nothing about a so called seven year tribulation period, but states we have always had tribulation from the beginning of time when Adam and Eve sinned against God.

Below I have explained with scripture that the True Church of Christ (body of Christ) alive at His coming or a sleep in the grave will be caught up to Christ on the last day when Christ returns.

John 3:13 And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.

John 5:28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, 29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

John 6:40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

The Church, which represents the bride of Christ, will face seeing much tribulation as it will be hard to bare seeing Gods wrath poured out on the unjust as those who are anointed by God's Holy Spirit are sent out to preach to them before we enter into the kingdom of God (New Jerusalem). There are many false teachings that teach we are taken out of here before some seven year Great Tribulation, but there is no scripture that speaks of a seven year Great Tribulation, but only 3 1/2 years. Some also teach that after Rev Chapter 4 the Church is no longer here on earth. If this were the case then why did Jesus say that those who endure until the end will be saved. The end of what, the end of days or as scripture calls it that great and terrible day of the Lord when final judgment will be passed as the Sheep are separated from the goats and the goats are cast into the lake of fire with Satan, the beast and false prophets.

By studying all the scriptures below in Revelations I come to the conclusion we will see much tribulation, but not to fear what must come, but stand strong in the faith of Christ Jesus as the Holy Spirit strengthens us to stand and endure until the coming of the Lord as God has a place prepared for us in the wilderness as His wrath passes over the earth, Rev 12:6. We need to be His witnesses as a faithful servant until He returns. God's wrath is not for the elect of God as they are kept from it falling on them and when we see the abomination that causes desolation, Daniel Chapter 7; Matthew 24:15-22; Rev Chapter 13, we are to flee from taking its mark as we stand in a greater faith in Christ that we need not fear that which has to come first before Christ returns, Matthew 10:28, but that we need to be prepared as His Bride when He does return on the last day and destroys the beast and false prophet at His coming, Rev 19.

Act 14:22 Confirming the souls of the disciples, and exhorting them to continue in the faith, and that we must through much tribulation enter into the kingdom of God as we are also His disciples.

Mat 24:13,29-31 But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.

Matthew 24:29-31; Rev 3:5; 19:8 Jesus is telling us to watch for the signs of His coming and to overcome so that our names are not blotted out of the Lamb's book of life.

Rev 5:13; 6:17; 7:1-5 On earth and under the earth are those who are still here until the end of days as God's wrath begins with the opening of the seventh seal.

Rev 6:9-11 Note where John says fellow servants and brethren that should be killed as they were, which means those of the elect of God who refuse to take the mark of the beast and will die a martyr's death for their faith in Christ.

Rev 7:13-17 Which came out of great tribulation is the fullness of the Gentiles who also died a martyr's death for the sake of Christ.

Rev 8:13 Three woes are that of warning the people on earth that the last three trumpets are about to sound.

Rev 13:11-18 Here John is showing us about mystery Babylon ruling the world as a one world government. 666 represents the number of the beast and the mark is the action of the hands and thoughts of the mind as many will be deceived and accept this mark.

Rev 14:14-20 The harvest of Gods Children who are still alive at this time as they are being protected against the vial judgments that will fall on those who have rejected Christ.

Rev 16:11,15 And they repented not. The elect of God are told to watch for the return of Christ as He comes like a theif and we are to keep our garments clean and not found in shame

Rev 18:23, 24 We have now come out of great tribulation through the persecution of the revived Roman Empire and Christ is about to return for His Bride

Rev 19:7,8 We being the Bride of Christ have now made ourselves ready for His coming as those who are still alive at this time and asleep in the grave have endured until the last day when Christ returns and destroys the beast and false prophet and sends His angels out to gather the Bride up to meet Jesus in the air.

Rev 20:4-6 These verses show that we went through much annihilation and endured until the end being the last day when Christ returns.

Rev 20:12-15 The Great White Throne judgment and Jesus judgment for the works we did or did not do for him here on earth

 

[for_his_glory]

Do we all agree that when the antichrist signs a 7 year peace treaty with Isreal, that that event starts the tribulation?

there's 7 years of tribulation and Daniel tells us that halfway through it the antichrist does the abpmination of desolation to happen and he declares himself to be god. Then it gets so terrible on the earth for the last half of the tribulation.

Where can we find this in scripture?

 

[Edward]

We do not enter the Millennial Kingdom here on earth in our natural bodies, but in new glorified bodies, 1 Corinthians 15:51-54. When Christ returns in the air on the last day we are then caught up to meet Him in the air and so shall we ever be with the Lord as He has made us unto our God kings and priests and we shall reign on the earth as we rule with Him over the nations as His enemies have become His footstool in the end of days, John 5:28, 29; 6:40; 1 Thessalonians 4:16-18; Rev 5:10; Psalms 110:1-4; Hebrews 10:12, 13.

It's very easy to confuse rapture scriptures with 2nd coming scriptures. But if you pay very close attention to the scriptures you can tell that it's referring to two events. If a single event where rapture and bind satan is the same trip...then that creates a lot of contrdictions in scripture which should not be. And that's because it speaks about two events.

At the 2nd coming when He binds satan He is come to fight and conquer and set up His millenial reign on earth. Regardless, so what about the contradictions if you say it is a single event?
Some scriptures say,
AT the rapture we get translated and changed.
No translations take place at the 2nd coming.

The saints go to heaven at the rapture.
The saints return to the earth with Jesus after the tribulation.

The rapture we are told is Imminent, be ready at any moment.
The 2nd coming is not imminent.

Rapture is before the day of wrath.
2nd coming concludes the day of wrath.

Rapture He comes in the air.
2nd coming He comes to the ground..

Rapture affects Believers only so is as a thief in the night.
2nd coming affects all men and every eye will see Him.

These are only a portion of the contraddictions made when we assume that both the rapture and the 2nd coming happen in the same event. I have more scriptures for any pf them so just take your pick and perchance explain the discrepencies for me? And one more thing for this post...

Most pastors teach a pretrib rapture, but this is false teaching and not according to what God has already taught us. Matthew 24 shows us...

Do you have to be so dogmatic in conversation when we're all trying to figure out the truth? I tell you what, consider this scripture and give me your interpretation of it and the who what where how of which it speaks, ok? Please.

Isaiah 26:19-21
19 Your dead shall live;
Together with [k]my dead body they shall arise.
Awake and sing, you who dwell in dust;
For your dew is like the dew of herbs,
And the earth shall cast out the dead.

Take Refuge from the Coming Judgment​

20 Come, my people, enter your chambers,
And shut your doors behind you;
Hide yourself, as it were, for a little moment,
Until the indignation is past.
21 For behold, the Lord comes out of His place
To punish the inhabitants of the earth for their iniquity;
The earth will also disclose her [l]blood,
And will no more cover her slain.../NKJV

 

[Edward]

Where can we find this in scripture?

For real? You havent studied this very much have you?

Truth is, I do have scriptures for everything you ask, but my so called filing system leaves some things to be desired, lol. I know I have it but gimme a few to get to finding those ones and I will post back with these scriptures!

Meanwhile maybe someone else also knows these things and can post about it. I am a hungry and it's gettin along to suppertime. But, I'll be back.

 

[JLB]

(Found it!) In the OT! The book of Isaiah gives a pretty good picture of the rapture and the tribulation.

Isaiah 16:19-21
19 Your dead shall live;
Together with [k]my dead body they shall arise.
Awake and sing, you who dwell in dust;
For your dew is like the dew of herbs,
And the earth shall cast out the dead.

Take Refuge from the Coming Judgment​

20 Come, my people, enter your chambers,
And shut your doors behind you;
Hide yourself, as it were, for a little moment,
Until the indignation is past.
21 For behold, the Lord comes out of His place
To punish the inhabitants of the earth for their iniquity;.../NKJV

Your dead shall live, they shall arise? This is a rapture scripture.

20 Come, my people (up in the air to meet me!), enter your chambers,
And shut your doors behind you;

Shut your doors behnd you? Whose doors? Oh we've just been raptured by the Lord so...so shall we ever be with the Lord! So tis would have to be in a place that He has prepared for us! Right?! And certainly this place is in heaven.

Hide yourself, as it were, for a little moment,
Until the indignation is past. (The indignation of the Great Tribulation)

21 For behold, the Lord comes out of His place
To punish the inhabitants of the earth for their iniquity.../ That is talking about the great tribulation. :wink

Here is the coming of the Lord (Day of the Lord) as spoken by the Lord through the mouth of Zechariah. This is what the Lord was teaching from in Matthew 24.


Behold, the day of the LORD is coming,
And your spoil will be divided in your midst.
For I will gather all the nations to battle against Jerusalem;
The city shall be taken,
The houses rifled,
And the women ravished.
Half of the city shall go into captivity,
But the remnant of the people shall not be cut off from the city.
Then the LORD will go forth
And fight against those nations,
As He fights in the day of battle.
And in that day His feet will stand on the Mount of Olives,
Which faces Jerusalem on the east.
And the Mount of Olives shall be split in two,
From east to west,
Making a very large valley;
Half of the mountain shall move toward the north
And half of it toward the south.
Then you shall flee through My mountain valley,
For the mountain valley shall reach to Azal.
Yes, you shall flee
As you fled from the earthquake
In the days of Uzziah king of Judah.
Thus the LORD my God will come,
And all the saints with You.
Zechariah 14:1-5


Thus the LORD my God will come, and all the saints with You.
Zechariah 14:5


For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who sleep in Jesus. 1 Thessalonians 4:14





JLB

 

[Edward]

Here is the coming of the Lord (Day of the Lord) as spoken by the Lord through the mouth of Zechariah. This is what the Lord was teaching from in Matthew 24.


Behold, the day of the LORD is coming,
And your spoil will be divided in your midst.
For I will gather all the nations to battle against Jerusalem;
The city shall be taken,
The houses rifled,
And the women ravished.
Half of the city shall go into captivity,
But the remnant of the people shall not be cut off from the city.
Then the LORD will go forth
And fight against those nations,
As He fights in the day of battle.
And in that day His feet will stand on the Mount of Olives,
Which faces Jerusalem on the east.
And the Mount of Olives shall be split in two,
From east to west,
Making a very large valley;
Half of the mountain shall move toward the north
And half of it toward the south.
Then you shall flee through My mountain valley,
For the mountain valley shall reach to Azal.
Yes, you shall flee
As you fled from the earthquake
In the days of Uzziah king of Judah.
Thus the LORD my God will come,
And all the saints with You.
Zechariah 14:1-5


Thus the LORD my God will come, and all the saints with You.
Zechariah 14:5


For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who sleep in Jesus. 1 Thessalonians 4:14





JLB

Ok. I agree inasmuch as you can reconcile the verses from Isaiah that I posted to you! You gave no comment on them...

 

[Edward]

Where does it say that we don’t continue with Him to the mount of Olives?

Here is 1 Thessalonians 4:13-5:4.

Lets let the scriptures themselves teach us.


But I do not want you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning those who have fallen asleep, lest you sorrow as others who have no hope. For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who sleep in Jesus.
For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep. For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord. Therefore comfort one another with these words. But concerning the times and the seasons, brethren, you have no need that I should write to you. For you yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so comes as a thief in the night. For when they say, “Peace and safety!” then sudden destruction comes upon them, as labor pains upon a pregnant woman. And they shall not escape. But you, brethren, are not in darkness, so that this Day should overtake you as a thief. 1 Thessalonians 4:13-5:4

• even so God will bring with Him those who sleep in Jesus.v.14

At the resurrection and rapture God will bring with Jesus those who are in heaven that have died. This is Jesus coming with the Church as well as, for the Church. He comes with the dead in Christ in heaven, in which they will receive their resurrected bodies, and He is coming for those who are alive and remain; the rapture.

• For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep. v.15

Plainly the resurrection and rapture takes place at the coming of the Lord. This is a no brainer when you study the passages about the coming (Parousia) of the Lord. We see the resurrection is associated with the coming of the Lord. By studying when the resurrection takes place we see that it takes place at the end of the age, on the last day.

Strong's G3952 - parousia​

1. presence
2. the coming, arrival, advent
   1. the future visible return from heaven of Jesus, to raise the dead, hold the last judgment, and set up formally and gloriously the kingdom of God

• For this we say to you by the word of the Lord

Verse 15 also teaches us this is a direct teaching from the Lord Himself and is exactly what He taught His disciples in Matthew 24.

• For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. v.16

Notice again how the resurrection comes before the rapture. This fact alone is enough to teach us that the resurrection and rapture occur on the last day.

No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up at the last day. John 6:44

Then they will see the Son of Man coming in the clouds with great power and glory. And then He will send His angels, and gather together His elect from the four winds, from the farthest part of earth to the farthest part of heaven. Mark 13:26-27

• from the farthest part of earth to the farthest part of heaven.

This is the coming of the Lord where He gathers together His Church; those in heaven and those on earth.

• Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. v.17

Notice the resurrection and rapture are one event that takes place at His coming. Those who are resurrected and those who are raptured are gathered together high above the earth in the clouds with the Lord.


Guess what happens next?

The wicked are destroyed from the earth, because this is the day of the Lord.

• But concerning the times and the seasons, brethren, you have no need that I should write to you. For you yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so comes as a thief in the night. For when they say,“Peace and safety!” then sudden destruction comes upon them, 1 Thessalonians 5:1-3

Last point (sorry for long post) —

• But you, brethren, are not in darkness, so that this Day should overtake you as a thief. v.4

The Day of the Lord will not come as a thief in the night for the Church, but it will come as a thief in the night for the wicked.




JLB

That's what you last day rapture folks always do when these threads come up. You post all the same scriptures, and you leave it at that. Not realizing that you are mistakenly running together the scriptures about the rapture and the 2nd coming as if they are one event. But if you pay very very close attention to the text you will see that if it is to be presumed to all happen in one event, then there are immediate contradictions in scripture that say different things. Maybe you can help clear up some of those contradictions for me so that I may understand?

Like for instance, Daniel 9:27 & 12:11-12 & Revelation 13:5 show us that Jesus returns 1260 days after the abomination of desolation...

So when we know exactly when the 2nd coming will be, why did the Lord teach us the doctrine of imminency?

Revelation 16:15
15 “Look, I will come as unexpectedly as a thief! Blessed are all who are watching for me, who keep their clothing ready so they will not have to walk around naked and ashamed.”.../NLT

Matthew 24:42-44
42 “So you, too, must keep watch! For you don’t know what day your Lord is coming. 43 Understand this: If a homeowner knew exactly when a burglar was coming, he would keep watch and not permit his house to be broken into. 44 You also must be ready all the time, for the Son of Man will come when least expected.../NLT

These scriptures tell that we don't know when He is coming so keep watch. So why would they teach us this if we know that Jesus returns 1260 days after the abomination of desolation?

If Jesus doesn't rapture us until after He binds satan for 1000 years, then why are we supposed to keep watch?

 

[Edward]

Rev Chapter 4 the Church is no longer here on earth. If this were the case then why did Jesus say that those who endure until the end will be saved.

Uh, because people will be saved during the tribulation! And those people must endure to the end...

There will prolly be more people saved during the tribulation than in the entire history of the world before that.

 

[Edward]

Where can we find this in scripture?

Daniel 9:27
Daniel 12: 11-12
Revelation 11:2, 3
Revelation 12:4
Revelation 13:5

What about Isaiah 26:19-21?

 

[JLB]

Not realizing that you are mistakenly running together the scriptures about the rapture and the 2nd coming as if they are one event.

For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep. 1 Thessalonians 4:15


The resurrection and rapture occur at His coming.



JLB