The reason you cant lose your salvation is?.....

[dadof10]

The reason you cant lose your salvation, is because its not yours to lose.
Its Gods, and its his to give.
It belongs to him.

How many times in Scripture do we read Jesus saying "Go on your way, your faith has saved you."?

It's obvious that the faith belongs to the believer. Certainly given by God, but accepted by the believer.

He did it, he created "salvation", by manifesting himself as a man, through a virgin, then slaying his body on a cross & then resurrecting himself for your sins so that by all this, YOU could become his .

All of this, ......you had NOTHING to do with it.....so, get over it.
Get over yourself.
Get past your self righteousness, and stop trying to believe that your deeds have anything to do with what GOD did for you as a GIFT.
Once you get to that place of understanding, then you will have finally arrived at the perfect understanding of what Salvation is NOT.
Its NOT about you.
Its not about your church.
It not about your behavior.
Its not about Water Baptism or the 10 commandments.
Its all about the free gift of reconciliation that was PROVIDED FOR YOU FOR FREE., so stop trying to pretend that your silly church maneuvers or your good deeds one day and your flesh controlled life the next, could possibly have anything to do with saving you or keeping you saved.
Give all the credit to God for what he did and stop trying to give credit to yourself for what you cant even do for 24 hrs.

The reason you cant lose your salvation, is because its not yours to lose.
Its Gods, and its his to give.
It belongs to him.
He did it, he created "salvation", by manifesting himself as a man, through a virgin, then slaying his body on a cross & then resurrecting himself for your sins so that by all this, YOU could become his .

All of this, ......you had NOTHING to do with it.....so, get over it.
Get over yourself.
Get past your self righteousness, and stop trying to believe that your deeds have anything to do with what GOD did for you as a GIFT.
Once you get to that place of understanding, then you will have finally arrived at the perfect understanding of what Salvation is NOT.
Its NOT about you.
Its not about your church.
It not about your behavior.
Its not about Water Baptism or the 10 commandments.
Its all about the free gift of reconciliation that was PROVIDED FOR YOU FOR FREE., so stop trying to pretend that your silly church maneuvers or your good deeds one day and your flesh controlled life the next, could possibly have anything to do with saving you or keeping you saved.
Give all the credit to God for what he did and stop trying to give credit to yourself for what you cant even do for 24 hrs.

I don't think anyone here believes in earned salvation, although many (myself included) are accused of it. The standard OSAS "proof texts" only take one side of the equation into consideration. The gift of salvation must be accepted, not rejected. If my wife goes out and buys me a gift, I can reject it. If I accept it, there is no possible way that anyone can logically say I have "earned" the gift. It was freely given, by her grace alone, all I need do is accept it, then it belongs to me. It's the same with salvation, God offers and we can reject or accept. There is not one verse in Scripture that contradicts this. The standard verses mentioned only deal with God's side because, to the Jewish mind, salvation due to belief instead of action, was a new and radical concept. That people must accept salvation, not so much, which is why the stress is placed on God's actions, not ours.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

If my wife goes out and buys me a gift, I can reject it. If I accept it, there is no possible way that anyone can logically say I have "earned" the gift. It was freely given, by her grace alone, all I need do is accept it, then it belongs to me.

It's interesting how OSAS insists it is no longer a free, unmerited gift of grace if owning it is in any way conditioned on you receiving it and then being careful to hang on to it.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

We don't access anything - it is offered to us openly, publicly. A man is to accept God's gift or reject it; and even in that we have His help.

How do I accept this gift?

 

[Gregg]

Domo arigato, Mr. Roboto,
Mata ah-oo hima de
Domo arigato, Mr. Roboto,
Himitsu wo shiri tai

[...]

Machines to save our lives. Machines dehumanize.


From "Mr. Roboto"

I prefer Go

You did not address this passage in Jethro's post:

Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and you stand by faith. Be not high minded, but fear: For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee. Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness,if you continue in His goodness: otherwise you also shall be cut off. And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be grafted in: for God is able to graft them in again. Romans 11:20-23​

Paul is saying believers that have eternal life will be cut off the tree. As Yeshua said, a branch destined for the fire.

And you shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved. Mark 13:13​

Salvation is received by faith, but will become a reality after enduring until the end. Renouncing Yeshua is to no longer endure/abide and costs the faithless salvation.

Stand fast therefore in the liberty wherewith Messiah has made us free, and be not entangled again with the yoke of bondage. Behold, I Paul say unto you, that if you be circumcised, Messiah shall profit you nothing. For I testify again to every man that is circumcised, that he is a debtor to do the whole law. Messiah is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; you are fallen from grace. Galatians 5:1-4​

Paul is addressing believers that have eternal life. If they choose to get circumcised in order to be justified by the law rather than by Messiah, Messiah's sacrificial blood atonement will be made void. It will not save them because they put their faith in their works rather than in Messiah.

For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Yeshua Messiah, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning. For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them. But it is happened unto them according to the true proverb, The dog is turned to his own vomit again; and the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire. 2 Peter 2:20-22
​

Again, this refers to true believers who knew Yeshua and were in him. They turned away from Yeshua and his ways and returned back into the world. It would have been better for them to have remained unbelievers meaning, they are worse than unbelievers.

Salvation and eternal life are a reality now, in the present.

I think it would be helpful to your exegesis and understanding of the Scriptures to distinguish between:

1.) death of the physical body vs. death of the soul and spirit.

2.) matters as viewed from the OT vs. the NT Covenant and dispensation.

3.) know about God vs. knowing God

 

[Gregg]

Domo arigato, Mr. Roboto,
Mata ah-oo hima de
Domo arigato, Mr. Roboto,
Himitsu wo shiri tai

[...]

Machines to save our lives. Machines dehumanize.


From "Mr. Roboto"

I prefer Go

Our faith is in Messiah. However, if we lose faith, we lose Messiah, our only hope of salvation. We cannot allow anything or anyone to cause us to lose faith in him.

I agree with that statement. The argument for OSAS leads to the conclusion that the Lord will not allow those that belong to Him to degrade to the point of 'not believing.' He is both willing and able to do so; and has stated as much many times in the NT.

I see a clear distinction between the two points of view:

non-OSAS:
- concerned about not doing the word of God
- not missing the mark, not sinning
- living under a law of moral and legal prohibitions
- salvation is [partially] dependent upon man
- not knowing if their faith will result in eternal life, until after a physical death

OSAS:
- concerned about doing the word of God
- having hit the mark, pleasing God
- being free under a law of liberty and life
- salvation dependent upon God
- knowing Christ has led us to the Father, having eternal Life in Him now and forever

 

[Gregg]

How do I accept this gift?

Believe in Him, not in yourself and Him.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Believe in Him, not in yourself and Him.

How do I believe in him without me believing in him? How can God possibly do my believing for me?

If that's how it works why doesn't he do the believing for all the countless souls that have lived, and not let any of them go to the lake of fire? For that is what he says he desires--that all men be saved, not just the few that will. I would think he would be quick to do their believing for them if that's how it works.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

I see a clear distinction between the two points of view:

non-OSAS:
[...]
- not knowing if their faith will result in eternal life, until after a physical death

All the points you think represent non-OSAS are worthy of discussion but let's look at this one.

I explained how it is actually non-OSAS that has the security of salvation because it says as long as you're having faith in the blood of Christ you are saved.

But in OSAS you can't really know if your believing is not fake until it fails. At which time you will then know that all the believing you have done to date, and thought was real and able to save, has now been revealed to have really been a fake faith all along, one that can not save you. Yet, it is claimed that living with the uncertainty of whether or not your faith will fail is somehow having the security of salvation you can rest in.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

26 For if we go on sinning willfully after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins..." (Hebrews 10:26 NASB)

Gregg, now that we both agree that the author is speaking to true believers, and that 'receiving the knowledge of the truth' really does mean being saved, how can a Christian still have the blood of Christ ministering on his behalf in heaven if that sacrifice for sin 'no longer remains' for the believer who walks away from his salvation and back to the ways of the world?

 

[Gregg]

How do I believe in him without me believing in him? How can God possibly do my believing for me?

If that's how it works why doesn't he do the believing for all the countless souls that have lived, and not let any of them go to the lake of fire? For that is what he says he desires--that all men be saved, not just the few that will. I would think he would be quick to do their believing for them if that's how it works.

I am not saying we are robots, or puppets. We are sentient beings with a will.

 

[Gregg]

All the points you think represent non-OSAS are worthy of discussion but let's look at this one.

I explained how it is actually non-OSAS that has the security of salvation because it says as long as you're having faith in the blood of Christ you are saved.

But in OSAS you can't really know if your believing is not fake until it fails. At which time you will then know that all the believing you have done to date, and thought was real and able to save, has now been revealed to have really been a fake faith all along, one that can not save you. Yet, it is claimed that living with the uncertainty of whether or not your faith will fail is somehow having the security of salvation you can rest in.

Personally, I do not live with uncertainly about these matters. I have passed from knowing about God - to knowing God, and that in and through Jesus Christ.

Because He is the Living One [and He knows me and I know Him] I am in Him and I live because of Him.

I know the Resurrection and the Life.

 

[Gregg]

26 For if we go on sinning willfully after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins..." (Hebrews 10:26 NASB)

Gregg, now that we both agree that the author is speaking to true believers, and that 'receiving the knowledge of the truth' really does mean being saved, how can a Christian still have the blood of Christ ministering on his behalf in heaven if that sacrifice for sin 'no longer remains' for the believer who walks away from his salvation and back to the ways of the world?

Paul said "if" . . . but continue reading, "But we are not of those withdrawing to destruction, but of faith, to the preservation of the soul" (Heb 10:39).

 

[jocor]

I prefer Go

Salvation and eternal life are a reality now, in the present.

I think it would be helpful to your exegesis and understanding of the Scriptures to distinguish between:

1.) death of the physical body vs. death of the soul and spirit.

2.) matters as viewed from the OT vs. the NT Covenant and dispensation.

3.) know about God vs. knowing God

Concerning the following two passages, there is no need to distinguish between any of the points you mentioned.

Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and you stand by faith. Be not high minded, but fear: For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee. Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness,if you continue in His goodness: otherwise you also shall be cut off. And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be grafted in: for God is able to graft them in again. Romans 11:20-23

Stand fast therefore in the liberty wherewith Messiah has made us free, and be not entangled again with the yoke of bondage. Behold, I Paul say unto you, that if you be circumcised, Messiah shall profit you nothing. For I testify again to every man that is circumcised, that he is a debtor to do the whole law. Messiah is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; you are fallen from grace. Galatians 5:1-4
​

Both passages refer to true believers who are in Messiah. They know him, are living under the NC and are physically alive. They become separated from Messiah in such a way that he is not effective on their behalf. His shed blood can no longer help them. They will die separated from him and they will not resurrect to be joined to him. The ONLY thing that can save them is to repent from their unbelief in order to be grafted in again or in order to be justified by faith. Please do not tell me that such people were really not believers. The Word clearly says they were. And please don't tell me that God will never allow someone to be cut off or be fallen from grace. Since He clearly cut off the natural branches, He will clearly cut off the wild branches who no longer believe. What is the sense of Paul giving us such warnings if it could never happen to NC believers?

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Paul said "if" . . . but continue reading, "But we are not of those withdrawing to destruction, but of faith, to the preservation of the soul" (Heb 10:39).

So which is it? The warning to fail is for those who 'really don't believe, and could fail', or the warning is for those who can't withdraw to destruction (true believers, not fake ones), but he gives them this unapplicable warning anyway?

Like I say, OSAS just doesn't add up.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Personally, I do not live with uncertainly about these matters.

You probably don't. I've never met an OSAS that ever did, because it's always the other guy who might stop his (fake) believing and who goes back to sinning, thus proving he never had the faith that saves. But the fact remains that you simply can not know that the faith you have now is real or not, because in OSAS the ability of your faith to save you is measured by if you ever fail, or not, not if you're believing now. Whether you do or not, it's impossible to take comfort in the faith you have now because any future failure will show it to have been fake all along. There's no way NOW to know if you have the faith that can save you.

Non-OSAS knows that every moment that you are trusting in the blood of Christ for the forgiveness of sins you are saved and have everything that salvation is now, and will be in the life to come. Faith is how we know we have salvation. In OSAS faith is always suspect because it can be potentially fake and deceiving the person who has it.

 

[DRS81]

There's no way NOW to know if you have the faith that can save you.

Yes there is.

But the fact remains that you simply can not know that the faith you have now is real or not

Yes you can.

Do you not know the love of the Holy Spirit?

 

[Gregg]

Concerning the following two passages, there is no need to distinguish between any of the points you mentioned.

Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and you stand by faith. Be not high minded, but fear: For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee. Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness,if you continue in His goodness: otherwise you also shall be cut off. And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be grafted in: for God is able to graft them in again. Romans 11:20-23​

Stand fast therefore in the liberty wherewith Messiah has made us free, and be not entangled again with the yoke of bondage. Behold, I Paul say unto you, that if you be circumcised, Messiah shall profit you nothing. For I testify again to every man that is circumcised, that he is a debtor to do the whole law. Messiah is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; you are fallen from grace. Galatians 5:1-4​

Both passages refer to true believers who are in Messiah. They know him, are living under the NC and are physically alive. They become separated from Messiah in such a way that he is not effective on their behalf. His shed blood can no longer help them. They will die separated from him and they will not resurrect to be joined to him. The ONLY thing that can save them is to repent from their unbelief in order to be grafted in again or in order to be justified by faith. Please do not tell me that such people were really not believers. The Word clearly says they were. And please don't tell me that God will never allow someone to be cut off or be fallen from grace. Since He clearly cut off the natural branches, He will clearly cut off the wild branches who no longer believe. What is the sense of Paul giving us such warnings if it could never happen to NC believers?

Rom 11:22 specifically says regarding those who were saved, "if you continue in the kindness . . ." That is not to say, 'if you continue in salvation . . .' You may want "kindness" to be equivalent to 'salvation', but they are not; nor is it even remotely suggested. However, Paul is setting God's kindness (Rom 11:22) against their high-mindedness (Rom 11:20).

Paul uses this word for the unbelieving OT Hebrew ["they"] in Rom 11:20 - ἐκκλάω: to break off
but, he uses this word for the believer ["you"] in Rom 11:22 - ἐκκόπτω: to hinder, to frustrate, or to cut down


He may frustrate the high-minded believer and withhold His kindness from him; but, God will never allow a Christian to be cut off from Himself or to fall from His saving grace.

Understand Rom 11:20-23 for what it says, not for what you would have it say.

 

[Gregg]

But the fact remains that you simply can not know that the faith you have now is real or not, because in OSAS the ability of your faith to save you is measured by if you ever fail, or not, not if you're believing now. Whether you do or not, it's impossible to take comfort in the faith you have now because any future failure will show it to have been fake all along. There's no way NOW to know if you have the faith that can save you.

Non-OSAS knows that every moment that you are trusting in the blood of Christ for the forgiveness of sins you are saved and have everything that salvation is now, and will be in the life to come. Faith is how we know we have salvation. In OSAS faith is always suspect because it can be potentially fake and deceiving the person who has it.

Again, you are professing faith in your own faith. You are resting upon your own ability.

But a believer can know for sure that He is saved; "The Spirit Himself witnesses with our spirit that we are children of God" (Rom 8:16). God knows those that belong to Him, and His sheep know Him, and they have eternal life; and that eternal life is procured, sustained, and will be brought to completion by God.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Yes there is.



Yes you can.

Do you not know the love of the Holy Spirit?

Bless you dear brother/sister/other (circle one).

Me, and apparently you, know that we can indeed know that we are truly saved. The point I was making is that OSAS can't know it. Not because they don't do right things that can potentially be showing the love of God in them, but because OSAS says that if you fail somewhere along the line--anywhere--it means you were never a true believer to begin with.

If our dear brother Gregg ever fails we will have no choice--if we are of the OSAS persuasion--but to point our finger at him and conclude that he was never saved to begin with, the love and the works he had up to then having been a deceitful disguise for the fact that he was never saved to begin with. All the while he was doing those things and 'having faith' he did not know that he really did NOT believe, because the later failure that exposed his his 'never having been saved to begin with' had not occurred yet.

But in non-OSAS, his failure means he may very well have been saved/forgiven, but he quit trusting in Christ and lost that which trust in Christ gains for a person. His previous work still being very much a work of the Spirit, but no longer of any value to him since he has walked away from the faith that produced those works. This is more in line with what the Bible says about the security, and the knowing, of salvation.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Again, you are professing faith in your own faith. You are resting upon your own ability.

Even you acknowledged the will of the person in salvation in post #90.

But a believer can know for sure that He is saved; "The Spirit Himself witnesses with our spirit that we are children of God" (Rom 8:16). God knows those that belong to Him, and His sheep know Him, and they have eternal life; and that eternal life is procured, sustained, and will be brought to completion by God.

...if we keep believing.

Which you apparently agree with, but just adding the insistence that it is impossible to stop believing once you do. If that's true you still need to explain the many pointed warnings to not stop believing.

If you want to stick with OSAS you have no choice but to argue that they are only theoretical, baseless threats.