The reason you cant lose your salvation is?.....

[Jethro Bodine]

But a Christian can not walk away from Christ, or His blood, so as to stop believing.

You speak of the "blood that once covered", but the blood of Christ covers.

I know that the idea that you can't walk away from faith in Christ is so ingrained in the thinking of so many these days, but the author is telling the saved Hebrew believers who are serving God diligently not to do what so many insist is impossible to do:

35 Therefore, do not throw away your confidence, which has a great reward. 36 For you have need of endurance, so that when you have done the will of God, you may receive what was promised.
(Hebrews 10:35 NASB)

Why would he warn them not to do that, and warn of the grave consequences for doing so, if it's impossible to do?

 

[Jethro Bodine]

There was a fellow who used to post in this forum who used to talk about not being able to believe anymore, but had before. He didn't understand that God does not allow Christ to be crucified again. He was probably experiencing exactly what the author said someone can't do--return to trust in Christ once you've abandoned it (although I gave him the benefit of the doubt and told him what I thought, based on his own words, was hindering his faith).

I'm not quick to judge who God has barred from returning, and who he has not yet done that too. In fact, the thought is so dreadful I don't judge that in other people (I may be wrong). But we all have to assess our own relationships with God for ourselves. But the warnings are clear not to abandon our trust in the blood of Christ or else be turned over to that decision forever. I believe God is long suffering, but one day God will make it so you can not be allowed to come back to a salvation you had but later abandoned. Esau is our illustration of the pain and regret of doing that:

"...he found no place for repentance, though he sought for it with tears." (Hebrews 12:17 NASB)

The Day of Judgment is going to be a terrible day for many. But God has warned us ahead of time in plain words. Let's not let popular, but erroneous church doctrine rob us of what God has planned for us.

 

[Gregg]

I assume you are referring to John 10:28-29:

John 10:28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.
John 10:29 My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand.​

It is true that no man can pluck us out. These verses say nothing about us leaving their loving hands. [#1.] As for knowing, I don't see how that has any bearing on the issue. Anyone can choose to reject the Father and the Son even after they have known them intimately. We can willfully choose to renounce Yeshua/Jesus as our Savior which, in turn, causes us to be separated forever from the Father.

2 John 1:9 Whosoever transgresses, and abides not in the doctrine of Messiah, has not God. He that abides in the doctrine of Messiah, he has both the Father and the Son.
​

To "abide" means to remain in Messiah [#2.] through faith/belief in him. We can choose to no longer remain in him at which time we no longer have the Father.

I was not referring to Jn 10:28-28, but rather to the two verses that I posted Jn 17:3 and 1 John 5:11. Neither of the verses I quoted mention being able to escape or taken from God's hand. To say that no man remove a Christian from God's hand is not to infer that the Christian himself is able to leave God's hand.

[#1.] Could you clarify what is in bracket #1 above? If you are saying that knowing God intimately is proof of salvation, I would say that rejecting the Father and the Son would be proof of not ever having salvation. The argument against OSAS attempts to identify possible ways man can escape salvation [a doctrine hinging upon man], while the mindset advocating OSAS looks to Christ - His word, character, nature, power, promises, etc. [a doctrinal resting upon Christ and not man].

[#2.] You are changing the definition of "abide" when you add a qualification for abiding. A Christian abides in Christ because that is where and in Whom God intended us to be. There is no spiritual or Scriptural mechanism or means to un-die to yourself, to be un-resurrected with Christ, to un-seal yourself from the Holy Spirit.

 

[Gregg]

Gregg,

For those kinds of people, it would not be possible to 'fall away'. We are told in Hebrews 6:4-6 (ESV) that 'if they then fall away' (v. 6). We are talking about people who had the faith to fall away from.

I disagree. They had a resemblance of faith, one outward according to the physical senses Paul brought into question - natural sight, taste with the mouth, hearing with physical ears, feeling the spiritual atmosphere surrounding and among Christians. One does not know God in the flesh, only about God. Neither will flesh and blood inherit the kingdom of God, but those who have entered in and through Christ.

 

[Gregg]

Charles Templeton did and he was a preacher in Youth for Christ with Billy Graham in the 1940s. You can read about it in his book, Farewell to God. See also: http://www.reclaimingthemind.org/bl...n-at-some-point-we-have-to-decide-to-believe/

I don't know this Charles Templeton. Did God ever know him?

 

[Gregg]

I know that the idea that you can't walk away from faith in Christ is so ingrained in the thinking of so many these days, but the author is telling [the saved Hebrew believers] who are serving God diligently not to do what so many insist is impossible to do:

35 Therefore, do not throw away your confidence, which has a great reward. 36 For you have need of endurance, so that when you have done the will of God, you may receive what was promised.
(Hebrews 10:35 NASB)

Why would he warn them not to do that, and warn of the grave consequences for doing so, if it's impossible to do?

In Heb 6:4-6, is Paul addressing Israelites as the whole Hebrew nation, or is he addressing an individual whose nationality is of Israel? Yes, he is writing to Christians but talking about "those [Hebrews] who have once been enlightened" and not about "we [Hebrews] who have once been enlightened." Paul was and is saved, knowing the Father and the Son; but "those" know about God outwardly - through eyesight, taste, feeling the ambience, hearing with physical ears [all according to the flesh]. But we don't come to know God this way.

Why issue a warning: believers have not yet vacated our physically bodies wherein the flesh wars against the spirit. I might add that believers have been spiritually circumcised from their own body and placed into the Body of Christ.

re Heb 10:35-36
Confidence has reward - not salvation itself, but the benefits of salvation. Endurance [cheerful endurance] is being perfected in us, not to receive salvation itself, but to receive the promises associated with salvation.

Now Paul speaks of himself and of Christians: "But we are not of those withdrawing to destruction, but of faith into acquisition of the soul" (Heb 10:39). Christ has accomplished that acquisition through His blood. We are His possession.

 

[jocor]

I was not referring to Jn 10:28-28, but rather to the two verses that I posted Jn 17:3 and 1 John 5:11. Neither of the verses I quoted mention being able to escape or taken from God's hand. To say that no man remove a Christian from God's hand is not to infer that the Christian himself is able to leave God's hand.

Neither verse you quoted says anything about OSAS. Both are contingent upon abiding in Messiah. If one renounce him there is no more abiding.

[#1.] Could you clarify what is in bracket #1 above? If you are saying that knowing God intimately is proof of salvation, I would say that rejecting the Father and the Son would be proof of not ever having salvation. The argument against OSAS attempts to identify possible ways man can escape salvation [a doctrine hinging upon man], while the mindset advocating OSAS looks to Christ - His word, character, nature, power, promises, etc. [a doctrinal resting upon Christ and not man].

One cannot know Yahweh intimately without first being truly saved by grace through faith. To remain in such a relationship requires abiding in Messiah. If some anti-missionary comes along and convinces you that Yeshua/Jesus is not Messiah and proves it through OT prophecies and you renounce Yeshua, you are no longer abiding in him.

[#2.] You are changing the definition of "abide" when you add a qualification for abiding. A Christian abides in Christ because that is where and in Whom God intended us to be. There is no spiritual or Scriptural mechanism or means to un-die to yourself, to be un-resurrected with Christ, to un-seal yourself from the Holy Spirit.

Joh 15:1 I am the true vine, and my Father is the husbandman.
Joh 15:2 Every branch in me that bears not fruit he takes away: and every branch that bears fruit, he purges it, that it may bring forth more fruit.
Joh 15:3 Now you are clean through the word which I have spoken unto you.
Joh 15:4 Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can you, except you abide in me.
Joh 15:5 I am the vine, you are the branches: He that abides in me, and I in him, the same brings forth much fruit: for without me you can do nothing.
Joh 15:6 If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned.
Joh 15:7 If you abide in me, and my words abide in you, you shall ask what you will, and it shall be done unto you.​

Abide means to "stay" or "remain". That is our choice. We can choose to not abide in which case we become a dead, fruitless branch destined for the fire. Verse 6 does not refer to unbelievers because unbelievers cannot "remain" in Messiah because they were never in him in the first place.

 

[Genesis Owl]

God is not a man that he should lie.

John 6:37 All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.

Just one example that Jesus will never cast out those who accept him. Those who believe they have lost their salvation, never had it. It really is as simple as that.

The reason you cant lose your salvation, is because its not yours to lose.
Its Gods, and its his to give.
It belongs to him.
He did it, he created "salvation", by manifesting himself as a man, through a virgin, then slaying his body on a cross & then resurrecting himself for your sins so that by all this, YOU could become his .

All of this, ......you had NOTHING to do with it.....so, get over it.
Get over yourself.
Get past your self righteousness, and stop trying to believe that your deeds have anything to do with what GOD did for you as a GIFT.
Once you get to that place of understanding, then you will have finally arrived at the perfect understanding of what Salvation is NOT.
Its NOT about you.
Its not about your church.
It not about your behavior.
Its not about Water Baptism or the 10 commandments.
Its all about the free gift of reconciliation that was PROVIDED FOR YOU FOR FREE., so stop trying to pretend that your silly church maneuvers or your good deeds one day and your flesh controlled life the next, could possibly have anything to do with saving you or keeping you saved.
Give all the credit to God for what he did and stop trying to give credit to yourself for what you cant even do for 24 hrs.

 

[Gregg]

One cannot know Yahweh intimately without first being truly saved by grace through faith. To remain in such a relationship requires abiding in Messiah.

You are embellishing the Gospel by adding 'to remain in such a relationship requires abiding in Messiah.' I hope that your witness to unbelievers does not stipulate that their salvation rests partly upon themselves - because that is simply not the truth of the Gospel message.

Neither verse you quoted says anything about OSAS. Both are contingent upon abiding in Messiah. If one renounce him there is no more abiding.

I quoted John 17:3 and 1 John 5:11 which address eternal life [being always saved once you have eternal life]. The very definition of that life is 'eternal,' but you would have people to reason other wise. That life which a Christian has received is perpetual, everlasting, eternal - no qualifications on our part to sustain that eternal life.

Our salvation is secured, sustained, and sealed solely by God.

Perhaps you have reasoned that eternal really doesn't mean everlasting.

To abide in Christ is to have entered into Christ once after having not known Him, to have been delivered out of the authority of darkness and translated into the kingdom of the Son; "in whom we have redemption through His blood, the remission of sins;" (Col 1:14). After entering into Christ, the elect have redemption, remission, life in perpetuity. Christ Himself defines the life that we now have in Him - calling it eternal, everlasting, in perpetuity throughout all coming ages.

 

[Gregg]

God is not a man that he should lie.

John 6:37 All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.

Just one example that Jesus will never cast out those who accept him.

How wonderful and beautiful the truth is.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

You are embellishing the Gospel by adding 'to remain in such a relationship requires abiding in Messiah.' I hope that your witness to unbelievers does not stipulate that their salvation rests partly upon themselves - because that is simply not the truth of the Gospel message.

"...you stand by your faith. Do not be conceited , but fear; 21 for if God did not spare the natural branches, He will not spare you,either. 22 Behold then the kindness and severity of God; to those who fell, severity, but to you,God's kindness, if you continue in His kindness; otherwise you also will be cut off." (Romans 11:20-22 NASB)

What unbelievers hate is when you tell them the Bible doesn't really mean what it plainly says.


The problem with OSAS and Hebrews 10 is if it decides the letter was written to 'not really' saved people then the fire of judgment described there is the lake of fire. But when OSAS decides that it is written to saved people the fire, of course, now means the loss of kingdom rewards. But as we will see, only one scenario fits the plain words of the passage and the context of the whole Bible. You can't have it both ways.

Our salvation is secured, sustained, and sealed solely by God.

IOW, we are robots. Some robots made to be saved, the rest made to be destroyed. A very meaningless gospel.

Perhaps you have reasoned that eternal really doesn't mean everlasting.

The kingdom is everlasting. And until we get there the promise of that never ending kingdom and us never being removed from it is contingent on having faith in Christ--the same faith that got you the promise of the kingdom in the first place. And the Bible has many warnings to be careful to not stop believing.

 

[Gregg]

The kingdom is everlasting. And until we get there the promise of that never ending kingdom and us never being removed from it is contingent on having faith in Christ--the same faith that got you the promise of the kingdom in the first place. And the Bible has many warnings to be careful to not stop believing.

Again, you are having faith in your faith, not a stable foundation to build upon. It's not the faith itself that 'got you the promise', but rather God Himself through Christ, this by His grace accompanied by His gift of faith.

You say 'And until we get there' as if you have not entered into that kingdom, but I say we who are Christians are already citizens in the Kingdom of God; we are there. Christians are in Christ.

"So, then, you are no longer strangers and tenants, but you are fellow citizens of the saints and of the household of God," (Eph 2:19).

"For our citizenship is in Heaven, from where we also wait for a Savior, the Lord Jesus Christ," (Php 3:20).

- - -

Even now Christians are not merely citizens of the kingdom of God, but we who are Christians are members of the Body of Christ - and He will not die again, nor we that have been placed in Him. Jesus Christ is the Resurrection and the Life.

"in whom also you were circumcised with a circumcision not made by hands, in the putting off of the body of the sins of the flesh, by the circumcision of Christ, being buried with Him in baptism, in whom also you were raised through the faith of the working of God, raising Him from among the dead" (Col 2:11-12).

Your point of view focuses upon sin, death, and man's ability, but OSAS looks toward Jesus Christ, the Resurrection and the Life, and the grace of God. Your vantage point magnifies contingencies and warnings, but the Gospel looks at the One Who Is, and Who Was, and The Coming One.

 

[Gregg]

The reason you cant lose your salvation, is because its not yours to lose.
Its Gods, and its his to give. It belongs to him.

Yes; pure and simple.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

God is not a man that he should lie.

John 6:37 All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.

Just one example that Jesus will never cast out those who accept him.

So very true. And it is upon this unmovable truth about the power of God that our confidence is placed. A confidence that we must hold on to to the very end to have what that confidence secures for us.

The promise secured by faith and confidence in the sacrifice and ministry of Christ is not that we can't lose our confidence in it, or if we do it doesn't matter. The promise is that what our confidence secures for us is worthy of that confidence. Christ will not let those who have fled in confidence to the cross be let down by some failure on his part. Won't happen. Our responsibility is to keep our confidence in the sureness of what is promised. That's what the Bible tells us--don't lose your confidence, so you can gain what that confidence secures.

Those who believe they have lost their salvation, never had it. It really is as simple as that.

Non-OSAS isn't about thinking you've lost your salvation. Quite the opposite. It's about knowing for sure that you are 'doing' what is required to inherit the promises.

OSAS actually says you can never know for sure you are saved because in that doctrine failure means you were never saved to begin with (but strangely enough, I've never met an OSASer who thought they would fail and be exposed as a fake believer). So when failure does occur in a professing Christian's life (somebody else's, not the OSAS believer's life, of course) it means they were never saved truly saved all along. Didn't he think he was saved all along? Of course he did!

So how does the OSAS believer know that his present obedience is not actually fake and an impending failure is going to reveal it as fake? The answer, of course, is they can't. But non-OSAS tells you how you can know that you are truly saved--your continuing faith and trust in Christ being the evidence of your salvation, not your so-called faith being a deceitful charade that might come falling down at any time to expose you as never having really believed from the beginning. And, mind you, a failure that the Bible says you can not come back from.

OSAS just doesn't add up.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Yes; pure and simple.

Domo arigato, Mr. Roboto,
Mata ah-oo hima de
Domo arigato, Mr. Roboto,
Himitsu wo shiri tai

[...]

Machines to save our lives. Machines dehumanize.


From "Mr. Roboto"

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Again, you are having faith in your faith, not a stable foundation to build upon. It's not the faith itself that 'got you the promise'...

Faith is how we access the stable foundation of Christ and his sacrifice and ministry.

"...we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ, 2 through whom we have gained access by faith into this grace in which we now stand. " (Romans 5:1-2 NIV)

...but rather God Himself through Christ, this by His grace accompanied by His gift of faith.

Faith to then believe and trust in Christ and his sacrifice and ministry.

You say 'And until we get there' as if you have not entered into that kingdom, but I say we who are Christians are already citizens in the Kingdom of God; we are there. Christians are in Christ.

We are, but how does that have to mean the requirement for faith no longer presides over us? Especially when the Bible plainly says it does!

Even now Christians are not merely citizens of the kingdom of God, but we who are Christians are members of the Body of Christ - and He will not die again, nor we that have been placed in Him.

As I shared earlier this morning, Romans 11 says those who stand by faith now, but who then don't have faith will be dismembered, cut out of the root.

Your point of view focuses upon sin, death, and man's ability...

Please show me once and for all where Paul said even our believing in order to be justified is a damnable work of the flesh. I see where he says the works of the law to be justified are the damnable works of the flesh, even contrasting them with our believing and how that is the only way to be justified before God. But if you can prove to me that Paul says our believing is a sinful work of the flesh I'll change my doctrine immediately.

 

[Genesis Owl]

Jesus taught OSAS in his ministry. People have just compartmentalized that to be OSAS.


And scripture tells us that faith without works is dead.

So very true. And it is upon this unmovable truth about the power of God that our confidence is placed. A confidence that we must hold on to to the very end to have what that confidence secures for us.

The promise secured by faith and confidence in the sacrifice and ministry of Christ is not that we can't lose our confidence in it, or if we do it doesn't matter. The promise is that what our confidence secures for us is worthy of that confidence. Christ will not let those who have fled in confidence to the cross be let down by some failure on his part. Won't happen. Our responsibility is to keep our confidence in the sureness of what is promised. That's what the Bible tells us--don't lose your confidence, so you can gain what that confidence secures.



Non-OSAS isn't about thinking you've lost your salvation. Quite the opposite. It's about knowing for sure that you are 'doing' what is required to inherit the promises.

OSAS actually says you can never know for sure you are saved because in that doctrine failure means you were never saved to begin with (but strangely enough, I've never met an OSASer who thought they would fail and be exposed as a fake believer). So when failure does occur in a professing Christian's life (somebody else's, not the OSAS believer's life, of course) it means they were never saved truly saved all along. Didn't he think he was saved all along? Of course he did!

So how does the OSAS believer know that his present obedience is not actually fake and an impending failure is going to reveal it as fake? The answer, of course, is they can't. But non-OSAS tells you how you can know that you are truly saved--your continuing faith and trust in Christ being the evidence of your salvation, not your so-called faith being a deceitful charade that might come falling down at any time to expose you as never having really believed from the beginning. And, mind you, a failure that the Bible says you can not come back from.

OSAS just doesn't add up.

 

[Gregg]

Again, you are having faith in your faith, not a stable foundation to build upon. It's not the faith itself that 'got you the promise', but rather God Himself through Christ, this by His grace accompanied by His gift of faith.

Faith is how we access the stable foundation of Christ and his sacrifice and ministry.

Your having faith in your faith is again demonstrated by your saying this, 'Faith is how we access . . .'

We don't access [man's action] Christ . . . but we are purchased by God and placed in [God's action, His doing] Christ.

"It is not in the heavens that you should say, 'Who shall go up into the heavens for us, and bring it to us, and cause us to hear it, that we may do it?' And it is not beyond the sea that you should say, 'Who shall cross over for us to the region beyond the sea and take it for us, and cause us to hear it, that we may do it?' For the word is very near to you, in your mouth and in your heart, that you may do it" (Deu 30:12-14). Christ descended and ascended that we may believe in Him. He became flesh, taught us, was crucified for us, and is resurrected from the dead. He ascended to Heaven. All this is His doing. We don't access anything - it is offered to us openly, publicly. A man is to accept God's gift or reject it; and even in that we have His help.

Speaking of Deu 30:12-14, Paul says "that is, the word of faith which we proclaim" (Rom 10:6-10). The doctrine of having 'faith in your faith' and being able to 'access' this or that and knowing the 'keys to prosperity and healing' . . . that is another version of the 'word of faith'; as those beliefs do not rest upon God or His completed work in Christ - but upon man and his works.

- - -

If we have died to ourselves, if we have been buried and raised with Him - then we live with Him because He lives. He is the Resurrection and the Life for those who have entered into His possession - whatever events may occur afterwards. The Church is His body, saved now, already having eternal life because we are in Him. If you say that someone could become a part of His body, and then still die spiritually [to be separate from God] for whatever reason, then you are saying that a part of the Body of Christ is yet to die. That can't be, except for our physical bodies which have yet to expire - but even our physical bodies will be raised when the Lord returns.

 

[jocor]

You did not address this passage in Jethro's post:

Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and you stand by faith. Be not high minded, but fear: For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee. Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness,if you continue in His goodness: otherwise you also shall be cut off. And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be grafted in: for God is able to graft them in again. Romans 11:20-23​

Paul is saying believers that have eternal life will be cut off the tree. As Yeshua said, a branch destined for the fire.

And you shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved. Mark 13:13​

Salvation is received by faith, but will become a reality after enduring until the end. Renouncing Yeshua is to no longer endure/abide and costs the faithless salvation.

Stand fast therefore in the liberty wherewith Messiah has made us free, and be not entangled again with the yoke of bondage. Behold, I Paul say unto you, that if you be circumcised, Messiah shall profit you nothing. For I testify again to every man that is circumcised, that he is a debtor to do the whole law. Messiah is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; you are fallen from grace. Galatians 5:1-4​

Paul is addressing believers that have eternal life. If they choose to get circumcised in order to be justified by the law rather than by Messiah, Messiah's sacrificial blood atonement will be made void. It will not save them because they put their faith in their works rather than in Messiah.

For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Yeshua Messiah, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning. For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them. But it is happened unto them according to the true proverb, The dog is turned to his own vomit again; and the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire. 2 Peter 2:20-22
​

Again, this refers to true believers who knew Yeshua and were in him. They turned away from Yeshua and his ways and returned back into the world. It would have been better for them to have remained unbelievers meaning, they are worse than unbelievers.

 

[jocor]

Your having faith in your faith is again demonstrated by your saying this, 'Faith is how we access . . .'

Our faith is in Messiah. However, if we lose faith, we lose Messiah, our only hope of salvation. We cannot allow anything or anyone to cause us to lose faith in him.