The Return of Christ

[RandyK]

God does not punish people. With God all things work together for good for those who love God and are called according to His plan and purpose.

Isaiah 13.11 I will punish the world for its evil,
the wicked for their sins.
I will put an end to the arrogance of the haughty
and will humble the pride of the ruthless.
Luk 21.20 “When you see Jerusalem being surrounded by armies, you will know that its desolation is near. 21 Then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains, let those in the city get out, and let those in the country not enter the city. 22 For this is the time of punishment in fulfillment of all that has been written. 23 How dreadful it will be in those days for pregnant women and nursing mothers! There will be great distress in the land and wrath against this people. 24 They will fall by the sword and will be taken as prisoners to all the nations. Jerusalem will be trampled on by the Gentiles until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled.

 

[Elijah7777]

1 Cor 5.12

Great question! At first glance, Matthew 7:1 ("Judge not, that you be not judged") and 1 Corinthians 5:12 ("What business is it of mine to judge those outside the church? Are you not to judge those inside?") might seem contradictory, but they actually address different contexts.

Jesus, in Matthew 7:1, warns against hypocritical judgment—condemning others while ignoring one's own faults. His teaching emphasizes humility and self-reflection before pointing out others' shortcomings.

Paul, in 1 Corinthians 5:12, speaks about accountability within the Christian community. He encourages believers to uphold moral standards among themselves while leaving judgment of outsiders to God.

So, rather than contradicting Jesus, Paul applies the principle of righteous judgment within the church while respecting Jesus' warning against self-righteous condemnation

 

[Elijah7777]

Luk 21.20

Do you think this is a past event, future or both?

 

[for_his_glory]

Solomon says there is nothing new under the sun. Some take this to mean that there is nothing that is going to happen that has not already happened.

Many that call themselves a Christian have not a clue of what is yet to come before the return of the Lord that has never been nor will ever be again.

 

[RandyK]

Do you think this is a past event, future or both?

Luke 21.20 refers to the Romans who invaded twice from 66-70 AD, ultimately destroying the city and the sanctuary, as Dan 9.26-27 predicted. After all, the entire focus of the Olivet Discourse was on the destruction of the temple, and only secondarily on Jesus' return. Jesus only addressed his return because the Disciples were confused about Jesus' statement that Jerusalem would fall. They had thought that Messiah was there to deliver Jerusalem, and not predict its demise.

So in saying that vultures would gather around the "corpse" Jesus imagined Romans troops, carrying eagle standards, surrounding and laying siege to Jerusalem. It was a time when Jesus encouraged believers to leave, earlier if possible, in order to escape certain judgment.

Concerning his 2nd Coming he indicated that it would be a deliverance only after a long period of Jewish exile, which would begin in his own generation with the predicted destruction of Jerusalem by the Romans. This is how the early Church Fathers interpreted this Discourse, and it's how I see it as well. It actually seems quite obvious to me. And the portion in Luke 21 I'm referencing is quite explicit about it.

Nevertheless, current prophetic views tend to want to make the Olivet Discourse more about the time when Jesus will come again, rather than about the time of Jesus' earthly ministry. They want to focus on predictions that seem of value today, rather than learn from ancient history. But God's word has value in whatever time it applies. It remains valuable for us today, as well.

 

[Elijah7777]

They had thought that Messiah was there to deliver Jerusalem, and not predict its demise.

They are still looking for the Messiah to deliver Jerusalem.

 

[RandyK]

They are still looking for the Messiah to deliver Jerusalem.

Yes, they are. And he will, I believe. Don't you?

 

[Carry_Your_Name]

So, rather than contradicting Jesus, Paul applies the principle of righteous judgment within the church while respecting Jesus' warning against self-righteous condemnation

More specifically, it's about judging strangers you don't know verses chastising amigos who are fellow members in Christ - whom you know and care. The former reeks of pride and moral superiority, a hallmark of the pharisees and sadducees.

 

[for_his_glory]

Luke 21.20 refers to the Romans who invaded twice from 66-70 AD, ultimately destroying the city and the sanctuary, as Dan 9.26-27 predicted. After all, the entire focus of the Olivet Discourse was on the destruction of the temple, and only secondarily on Jesus' return. Jesus only addressed his return because the Disciples were confused about Jesus' statement that Jerusalem would fall. They had thought that Messiah was there to deliver Jerusalem, and not predict its demise.

So in saying that vultures would gather around the "corpse" Jesus imagined Romans troops, carrying eagle standards, surrounding and laying siege to Jerusalem. It was a time when Jesus encouraged believers to leave, earlier if possible, in order to escape certain judgment.

Concerning his 2nd Coming he indicated that it would be a deliverance only after a long period of Jewish exile, which would begin in his own generation with the predicted destruction of Jerusalem by the Romans. This is how the early Church Fathers interpreted this Discourse, and it's how I see it as well. It actually seems quite obvious to me. And the portion in Luke 21 I'm referencing is quite explicit about it.

Nevertheless, current prophetic views tend to want to make the Olivet Discourse more about the time when Jesus will come again, rather than about the time of Jesus' earthly ministry. They want to focus on predictions that seem of value today, rather than learn from ancient history. But God's word has value in whatever time it applies. It remains valuable for us today, as well.

We have to remember in Matthew 24 that the Disciples asked Jesus three questions: when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?

The first thing Jesus told them was about the destruction of the Temple that came in 70AD. From there He told them to take heed that no man deceive you. (A lot of deception since that time has come) The rest of the chapter Jesus proceeds to outline all that must come first before He returns for His Bride meaning all who are His own that have endured all the trials, tribulations and temptations until the end.

During its long history, Jerusalem has been destroyed at least twice, besieged 23 times, attacked 52 times, and captured and recaptured 44 times. Now we look for what is yet future within the greatest tribulation that has never been since the beginning of creation, nor will ever be again before the return of Christ, Matthew 24:21; 29-31; 36-39.

 

[RandyK]

We have to remember in Matthew 24 that the Disciples asked Jesus three questions: when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?

Yes, and Jesus specifically answered each question. As I said, the question about his 2nd Coming and Kingdom was connected to the question about when the temple would fall. The time frame seemed messed up to the Disciples because Jesus had already come, and it would be expected he will bring God's Kingdom. So how can the temple fall in their time?

The answer is quite simple. Jesus said that despite the fact they were right that he would bring God's Kingdom, he was not to bring it right away. 1st, the temple would fall, and the people of Israel would be dispersed. And this would continue until the times of the Gentiles are finished, which we know today includes both the salvation and the judgment of the Gentiles. This would be concluded at his 2nd Coming.

The first thing Jesus told them was about the destruction of the Temple that came in 70AD. From there He told them to take heed that no man deceive you. (A lot of deception since that time has come) The rest of the chapter Jesus proceeds to outline all that must come first before He returns for His Bride meaning all who are His own that have endured all the trials, tribulations and temptations until the end.

The deception Jesus was initially focused upon was the misconception of his Kingdom that his Disciples also indulged in. They expected an immediate coming of the Kingdom--something Jesus denied, in view of the need to deal with Israel's sin and unworthiness in the then-present time.

So there would be zealous Jewish leaders who misled the Jewish People into fighting the Romans instead of repenting. Jesus said no earthly resolve was possible until he comes again from heaven. We should not expect any final solution to the problems of this life until Christ returns. Those who claim to offer a Kingdom in this world are deceivers, hiding their sins.

During its long history, Jerusalem has been destroyed at least twice, besieged 23 times, attacked 52 times, and captured and recaptured 44 times. Now we look for what is yet future within the greatest tribulation that has never been since the beginning of creation, nor will ever be again before the return of Christ, Matthew 24:21; 29-31; 36-39.

The "great tribulation," or "great distress," is defined in Luke 21 as beginning with the fall of Jerusalem in 70 AD, which has led to a great exile of the Jewish People into all nations. It is described as a "punishment" for the Jewish People until God is ready to reconsolidate and refine them.

The idea that the "Great Tribulation" is strictly the Reign of Antichrist is the product of modern prophetic speculation, and not rooted in Jesus' definition of it. Look again at Luke 21, and you will recognize that it is a prophecy specifically given to the nation Israel, given while the Law was still in effect when Israel was still God's exclusive People. They would enter into the NT era not intact as a nation of faith, and would break apart until the time of national restoration under Christ.

There is no question that Jesus said this time of "great tribulation" for the Jewish People would include tribulation and suffering for those in Israel who had faith and obeyed Christ. Similarly, in our day among the nations we have those who live for Christ in former Christian nations who suffer tribulation, even as their nations suffer God's chastisement and punishment.

This is something I'm convinced is true no matter how unpopular it is in the current prophetic phase. We simply must get our definition of the "Great Tribulation" from Jesus himself. And it is explicitly found in Luke 21.

Luke 21.20 “When you see Jerusalem being surrounded by armies, you will know that its desolation is near. 21 Then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains, let those in the city get out, and let those in the country not enter the city. 22 For this is the time of punishment in fulfillment of all that has been written. 23 How dreadful it will be in those days for pregnant women and nursing mothers! There will be great distress in the land and wrath against this people. 24 They will fall by the sword and will be taken as prisoners to all the nations. Jerusalem will be trampled on by the Gentiles until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled.

 

[Elijah7777]

Yes, they are. And he will, I believe. Don't you?

I am leaning toward a postmillennial return. However, I still believe in a "pre-trib " rapture. What no one seems to understand is the 144,000 in Revelation. They sing a new song before God.

 

[RandyK]

I am leaning toward a postmillennial return. However, I still believe in a "pre-trib " rapture. What no one seems to understand is the 144,000 in Revelation. They sing a new song before God.

Right. The 144,000 is a difficult one. Can't say I've ever been sure of it. I really don't think it's 12 literal Jewish tribes. The tribes passed away about the time the ancient Hebrew monarchy started. Well, they continued to exist, but for all practical purposes, they merged into a nation, and were no longer separated into tribes, particularly after the captivities.

It seems to be a reference to Israel's original promise, made when the 12 tribes were still in existence, that they would become a nation of God. When Christ comes back I believe Israel, as a nation, will be restored.

The Millennium is the subject of endless debates. ;)

 

[for_his_glory]

Yes, and Jesus specifically answered each question. As I said, the question about his 2nd Coming and Kingdom was connected to the question about when the temple would fall. The time frame seemed messed up to the Disciples because Jesus had already come, and it would be expected he will bring God's Kingdom. So how can the temple fall in their time?

The answer is quite simple. Jesus said that despite the fact they were right that he would bring God's Kingdom, he was not to bring it right away. 1st, the temple would fall, and the people of Israel would be dispersed. And this would continue until the times of the Gentiles are finished, which we know today includes both the salvation and the judgment of the Gentiles. This would be concluded at his 2nd Coming.

The deception Jesus was initially focused upon was the misconception of his Kingdom that his Disciples also indulged in. They expected an immediate coming of the Kingdom--something Jesus denied, in view of the need to deal with Israel's sin and unworthiness in the then-present time.

So there would be zealous Jewish leaders who misled the Jewish People into fighting the Romans instead of repenting. Jesus said no earthly resolve was possible until he comes again from heaven. We should not expect any final solution to the problems of this life until Christ returns. Those who claim to offer a Kingdom in this world are deceivers, hiding their sins.

The "great tribulation," or "great distress," is defined in Luke 21 as beginning with the fall of Jerusalem in 70 AD, which has led to a great exile of the Jewish People into all nations. It is described as a "punishment" for the Jewish People until God is ready to reconsolidate and refine them.

The idea that the "Great Tribulation" is strictly the Reign of Antichrist is the product of modern prophetic speculation, and not rooted in Jesus' definition of it. Look again at Luke 21, and you will recognize that it is a prophecy specifically given to the nation Israel, given while the Law was still in effect when Israel was still God's exclusive People. They would enter into the NT era not intact as a nation of faith, and would break apart until the time of national restoration under Christ.

There is no question that Jesus said this time of "great tribulation" for the Jewish People would include tribulation and suffering for those in Israel who had faith and obeyed Christ. Similarly, in our day among the nations we have those who live for Christ in former Christian nations who suffer tribulation, even as their nations suffer God's chastisement and punishment.

This is something I'm convinced is true no matter how unpopular it is in the current prophetic phase. We simply must get our definition of the "Great Tribulation" from Jesus himself. And it is explicitly found in Luke 21.

Luke 21.20 “When you see Jerusalem being surrounded by armies, you will know that its desolation is near. 21 Then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains, let those in the city get out, and let those in the country not enter the city. 22 For this is the time of punishment in fulfillment of all that has been written. 23 How dreadful it will be in those days for pregnant women and nursing mothers! There will be great distress in the land and wrath against this people. 24 They will fall by the sword and will be taken as prisoners to all the nations. Jerusalem will be trampled on by the Gentiles until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled.

Why do you localize what many call a "Great Tribulation" that is not found in scripture to only be upon Israel?

Yes, and Jesus specifically answered each question. As I said, the question about his 2nd Coming and Kingdom was connected to the question about when the temple would fall. The time frame seemed messed up to the Disciples because Jesus had already come, and it would be expected he will bring God's Kingdom. So how can the temple fall in their time?

The answer is quite simple. Jesus said that despite the fact they were right that he would bring God's Kingdom, he was not to bring it right away. 1st, the temple would fall, and the people of Israel would be dispersed. And this would continue until the times of the Gentiles are finished, which we know today includes both the salvation and the judgment of the Gentiles. This would be concluded at his 2nd Coming.

The deception Jesus was initially focused upon was the misconception of his Kingdom that his Disciples also indulged in. They expected an immediate coming of the Kingdom--something Jesus denied, in view of the need to deal with Israel's sin and unworthiness in the then-present time.

So there would be zealous Jewish leaders who misled the Jewish People into fighting the Romans instead of repenting. Jesus said no earthly resolve was possible until he comes again from heaven. We should not expect any final solution to the problems of this life until Christ returns. Those who claim to offer a Kingdom in this world are deceivers, hiding their sins.

The "great tribulation," or "great distress," is defined in Luke 21 as beginning with the fall of Jerusalem in 70 AD, which has led to a great exile of the Jewish People into all nations. It is described as a "punishment" for the Jewish People until God is ready to reconsolidate and refine them.

The idea that the "Great Tribulation" is strictly the Reign of Antichrist is the product of modern prophetic speculation, and not rooted in Jesus' definition of it. Look again at Luke 21, and you will recognize that it is a prophecy specifically given to the nation Israel, given while the Law was still in effect when Israel was still God's exclusive People. They would enter into the NT era not intact as a nation of faith, and would break apart until the time of national restoration under Christ.

There is no question that Jesus said this time of "great tribulation" for the Jewish People would include tribulation and suffering for those in Israel who had faith and obeyed Christ. Similarly, in our day among the nations we have those who live for Christ in former Christian nations who suffer tribulation, even as their nations suffer God's chastisement and punishment.

This is something I'm convinced is true no matter how unpopular it is in the current prophetic phase. We simply must get our definition of the "Great Tribulation" from Jesus himself. And it is explicitly found in Luke 21.

Luke 21.20 “When you see Jerusalem being surrounded by armies, you will know that its desolation is near. 21 Then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains, let those in the city get out, and let those in the country not enter the city. 22 For this is the time of punishment in fulfillment of all that has been written. 23 How dreadful it will be in those days for pregnant women and nursing mothers! There will be great distress in the land and wrath against this people. 24 They will fall by the sword and will be taken as prisoners to all the nations. Jerusalem will be trampled on by the Gentiles until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled.

Why do you only localize Israel in the end of days as if Jesus is only returning just for Israel?

Rev 12:3 the other sign John saw was a great red dragon meaning Satan. Remember, this is a vision and a sign as Satan has not yet been cast out of heaven until the beginning of the 3 1/2 year tribulation. The description of the dragon being great and red depicts its nature and character as being fierce and murderous, John 8:44. This red dragon is depicted as having seven heads, ten horns, and seven crowns upon his heads. This is also confirmed in Rev 17 as mystery Babylon is described. The seven heads and ten horns refer to the original ten kingdoms of which three were subdued by the little horn of Daniel 7:8. The last kingdom which stands greater than all the others is that of a revived Roman Empire that takes control over all the ten nations who then implements a deceiving peace treaty with the Muslims in which the Dome of the Rock will be given over to the son of perdition as he reigns from the very Temple mount of God. This is the abomination Jesus spoke of in Matthew 24:15, 16 that we are to flee from when we see the son of perdition take his seat in Jerusalem for 3 1/2 years.

Rev 13 the beast rises up out of the sea as the sea here is symbolic of people and nations as in a sea of humanity, Daniel Chapter 7:1-8; Revelation 17:15. This beast is a Luciferian system comprised of economic, political, militant, environmental and a false religious system. This beast system that Satan works through gives its power to the beast out of the earth as the beast out of the earth appears as the Lamb of God, but is a false Christ being the son of perdition, 2 Thessalonians 2:3-12 with two horns. The two horns represent the Old Roman Empire that received its deadly wound back in 1798 by General Berthier who made his entrance into Rome and abolished the Roman government and established a secular one. That caused them to scatter into the other ten nations (ten horns). The wound was healed in 1929 by Mussolini.

God speaks to us in scripture of a 3 1/2 year tribulation during the time of the seventh trumpet, not a seven year tribulation, as being time, times and half time which equals 1260 days = 3 1/2 years or 3 Times as the Hebrew calendar only had 30 days for each month and this is where you get 1260 days or 3 1/2 years.
[Scripture reference]
Revelation 12:14; Daniel 7:25; Daniel 12:7
1260 days Revelation 11:3; Revelation 12:6
42 months Revelation 11:2; Revelation 13:5

 

[for_his_glory]

Right. The 144,000 is a difficult one. Can't say I've ever been sure of it. I really don't think it's 12 literal Jewish tribes. The tribes passed away about the time the ancient Hebrew monarchy started. Well, they continued to exist, but for all practical purposes, they merged into a nation, and were no longer separated into tribes, particularly after the captivities.

It seems to be a reference to Israel's original promise, made when the 12 tribes were still in existence, that they would become a nation of God. When Christ comes back I believe Israel, as a nation, will be restored.

The Millennium is the subject of endless debates. ;)

Revelation 7:1-8
John is given another vision after these things, meaning after the first six seals that are revealed to him. He now sees four angels standing on the four corners of the earth holding the four winds of the earth in order that the wind should not blow on the earth, nor on the sea, nor on any tree until Gods servants were sealed.

These servants are the generational 144,000 from the twelve tribes of Israel, except for the tribe of Dan and Ephraim as they fell to idol worship and allowed God to be removed from them, Judges 18:30; 1 Kings12:25-33; Hosea 5:9, 11;Psalms 78:9-17, 65-67. To keep it twelve tribes since Dan and Ephraim are not mentioned in vs. 4-8 the tribe of Joseph appears twice, once under his own name and once under the name of his son Issachar/Manasseh. Judah is mentioned first as Messiah was to come from the lineage of David.

This is the importance of the 144,000 of the house of Israel and their generations unto the end of days. There were those of the old covenant that were faithful to God in keeping all his commandments and repented of their idol worshipping. Their generations who have also come back to Gods grace that are still alive during the seven trumpet sounds will continue to preach to the Jews as it was with the twelve disciples in Matthew 10:6. The generations of the 144,000 that are still alive have the seal of God on them which are the seven Spirits of God as they will have to endure much persecution until the end of days before the return of Jesus.
(Seven Spirits of God are found in Isaiah 11:2 and mentioned in Rev 1:4. Spirit of the Lord, wisdom, understanding, counsel, power, knowledge and fear/respect of the Lord.)

After Solomon's death his son Rehoboam became King and those ten Northern tribes (Israel/Dan/Ephraim) rebelled against King Rehoboam and followed after Jeroboam up North causing a division of the north and south Kingdom. Only the tribe of Judah (Judah) and the tribe of Benjamin (Judah) stayed Loyal to King Rehoboam in the southern Kingdom for they kept Gods commandments as they knew David was the lineage of the promised Messiah as it was prophesied of the prophets of God.

For almost two centuries the two Kingdoms where divided, but a remnant of the ten tribes soon came back to Judah after following Jeroboam as he turned the northern Kingdom into idol worshipers. This is why God divorced them of the northern kingdom, but has left room for them to repent and turn back to Him, Jeremiah 3:6-25; Deuteronomy 29

These servants are the generational 144,000 from the twelve tribes of Israel, except for the tribe of Dan and Ephraim as they fell to idol worship and allowed God to be removed from them, Judges 18:30; 1 Kings12:25-33; Hosea 5:9, 11;Psalms 78:9-17, 65-67. To keep it twelve tribes since Dan and Ephraim are not mentioned in vs. 4-8 the tribe of Joseph appears twice, once under his own name and once under the name of his son Issachar/Manasseh. Judah is mentioned first as Messiah was to come from the lineage of David.

 

[RandyK]

Why do you localize what many call a "Great Tribulation" that is not found in scripture to only be upon Israel?

Did God "localize" His promise to Abraham that he would become a "nation" in Gen 12? Did God "localize" OT Prophecy when he gave prophecies specifically for Israel, and not for other nations? Was God "narrow" in identifying Israel as a unique "chosen" nation under the OT Covenant?

You already know the answers to these questions. I just apply the same rule to Luke 21, where the prophecy is still under the OT Covenant and applies primarily to Israel who at that time were the only People listed in God's Covenant of Law. The Address references the future of Israel in the NT era, but it concerns the nation's overall attitude towards their Messiah, which obviously was very negative and invited tragic consequences.

As I said, Jesus *defined the Great Tribulation* as a Jewish Punishment, as a Prophecy specifically directed to Israel, just as in the OT Scriptures God addressed a specific nation, such as Israel, Babylon, or Assyria. God gives different prophecies for different nations.

In fact, I think you would have to ignore what Jesus said in order to expand his definition of the Great Tribulation to include other peoples. The principle of judgment towards fallen people of God may certainly apply, as well, in the NT period to other nations that have become Christian and then fall away.

Please address my argument, then, about Jesus' definition of the Great Tribulation, also called the Great Distress? Did Jesus apply this to Israel as a "Jewish Punishment" or not? If so, then it was in fact a "local application" to a specific nation, namely Israel, and not a general reference to all instances of "great tribulation," nor certainly applying only to the last few years of the age.

Why do you only localize Israel in the end of days as if Jesus is only returning just for Israel?

My point about the Great Tribulation being addressed exclusively to Israel does not mean it lacks application in principle to Christian experience in general. At the time, Israel was under the Law, and reference to the coming of the Son of Man in Dan 7 did seem to apply only to Israel.

But as you suggest, the coming of the Son of Man is for all of God's saints. We know that from the Abrahamic promise that he would father not just Israel but "many nations." So Christ is coming not just for Israel but for all. Nevertheless, this particular Discourse took place before the full revelation of Gentile inclusion was given. And so, in this Address Israel is the exclusive focus.

Rev 12:3 the other sign John saw was a great red dragon meaning Satan. Remember, this is a vision and a sign as Satan has not yet been cast out of heaven until the beginning of the 3 1/2 year tribulation.

Since visions sometimes appear to be "timeless," I can't actually say when Satan was "cast out of heaven." Jesus seems to have suggested that Satan had fallen from heaven even before his earthly ministry, perhaps in the very beginning of creation?

Luke 10.18 He replied, “I saw Satan fall like lightning from heaven.

The description of the dragon being great and red depicts its nature and character as being fierce and murderous, John 8:44. This red dragon is depicted as having seven heads, ten horns, and seven crowns upon his heads. This is also confirmed in Rev 17 as mystery Babylon is described. The seven heads and ten horns refer to the original ten kingdoms of which three were subdued by the little horn of Daniel 7:8.

I'm not sure what you mean by "the original ten kingdoms?" They seem to appear in the last days, at the time when Antichrist himself rises to try to usurp them for himself.

I believe the "ten" emerge from the old Roman imperial tradition and reflect a throwback to ancient Roman paganism. Since Rome was European, I think Europe today is heir to this old Roman tradition, has been sustaining it, and is eventually to reveal the "ten" nations that will comprise this last days "empire."

God will then allow Satan and the Antichrist to invade and take over the former Christian territory in Europe, trying to undo what Christianity has done in establishing an earthly counterpart to God's Kingdom in heaven. This "angry dragon" persecutes God's saints who remain in Europe and elsewhere. But this is not the kind of "tribulation" that Jesus spoke of as "God's Punishment" to Israel for forsaking their covenant with God.

The last kingdom which stands greater than all the others is that of a revived Roman Empire that takes control over all the ten nations who then implements a deceiving peace treaty with the Muslims in which the Dome of the Rock will be given over to the son of perdition as he reigns from the very Temple mount of God. This is the abomination Jesus spoke of in Matthew 24:15, 16 that we are to flee from when we see the son of perdition take his seat in Jerusalem for 3 1/2 years.

I don't see a "peace treaty" anywhere? It is often taken from a misinterpretation (as I see it) of Dan 9, where I think the Roman leadership unconsciously confirms God's covenant with His People by putting Jesus to death. As such, this would not be a "peace treaty!"

Rev 13 the beast rises up out of the sea as the sea here is symbolic of people and nations as in a sea of humanity, Daniel Chapter 7:1-8; Revelation 17:15. This beast is a Luciferian system comprised of economic, political, militant, environmental and a false religious system. This beast system that Satan works through gives its power to the beast out of the earth as the beast out of the earth appears as the Lamb of God, but is a false Christ being the son of perdition, 2 Thessalonians 2:3-12 with two horns. The two horns represent the Old Roman Empire that received its deadly wound back in 1798 by General Berthier who made his entrance into Rome and abolished the Roman government and established a secular one. That caused them to scatter into the other ten nations (ten horns). The wound was healed in 1929 by Mussolini.

It may be. I also think the restoration of the two-faceted Roman Empire is part of the healing of the "mortal wound." But I'm not sure about a lot of this. Thanks for your thoughts.

God speaks to us in scripture of a 3 1/2 year tribulation during the time of the seventh trumpet, not a seven year tribulation, as being time, times and half time which equals 1260 days = 3 1/2 years or 3 Times as the Hebrew calendar only had 30 days for each month and this is where you get 1260 days or 3 1/2 years.
[Scripture reference]
Revelation 12:14; Daniel 7:25; Daniel 12:7
1260 days Revelation 11:3; Revelation 12:6
42 months Revelation 11:2; Revelation 13:5

 

[for_his_glory]

Did God "localize" His promise to Abraham that he would become a "nation" in Gen 12? Did God "localize" OT Prophecy when he gave prophecies specifically for Israel, and not for other nations? Was God "narrow" in identifying Israel as a unique "chosen" nation under the OT Covenant?

You already know the answers to these questions. I just apply the same rule to Luke 21, where the prophecy is still under the OT Covenant and applies primarily to Israel who at that time were the only People listed in God's Covenant of Law. The Address references the future of Israel in the NT era, but it concerns the nation's overall attitude towards their Messiah, which obviously was very negative and invited tragic consequences.

As I said, Jesus *defined the Great Tribulation* as a Jewish Punishment, as a Prophecy specifically directed to Israel, just as in the OT Scriptures God addressed a specific nation, such as Israel, Babylon, or Assyria. God gives different prophecies for different nations.

In fact, I think you would have to ignore what Jesus said in order to expand his definition of the Great Tribulation to include other peoples. The principle of judgment towards fallen people of God may certainly apply, as well, in the NT period to other nations that have become Christian and then fall away.

Please address my argument, then, about Jesus' definition of the Great Tribulation, also called the Great Distress? Did Jesus apply this to Israel as a "Jewish Punishment" or not? If so, then it was in fact a "local application" to a specific nation, namely Israel, and not a general reference to all instances of "great tribulation," nor certainly applying only to the last few years of the age.

My point about the Great Tribulation being addressed exclusively to Israel does not mean it lacks application in principle to Christian experience in general. At the time, Israel was under the Law, and reference to the coming of the Son of Man in Dan 7 did seem to apply only to Israel.

But as you suggest, the coming of the Son of Man is for all of God's saints. We know that from the Abrahamic promise that he would father not just Israel but "many nations." So Christ is coming not just for Israel but for all. Nevertheless, this particular Discourse took place before the full revelation of Gentile inclusion was given. And so, in this Address Israel is the exclusive focus.

Since visions sometimes appear to be "timeless," I can't actually say when Satan was "cast out of heaven." Jesus seems to have suggested that Satan had fallen from heaven even before his earthly ministry, perhaps in the very beginning of creation?

Luke 10.18 He replied, “I saw Satan fall like lightning from heaven.

I'm not sure what you mean by "the original ten kingdoms?" They seem to appear in the last days, at the time when Antichrist himself rises to try to usurp them for himself.

I believe the "ten" emerge from the old Roman imperial tradition and reflect a throwback to ancient Roman paganism. Since Rome was European, I think Europe today is heir to this old Roman tradition, has been sustaining it, and is eventually to reveal the "ten" nations that will comprise this last days "empire."

God will then allow Satan and the Antichrist to invade and take over the former Christian territory in Europe, trying to undo what Christianity has done in establishing an earthly counterpart to God's Kingdom in heaven. This "angry dragon" persecutes God's saints who remain in Europe and elsewhere. But this is not the kind of "tribulation" that Jesus spoke of as "God's Punishment" to Israel for forsaking their covenant with God.

I don't see a "peace treaty" anywhere? It is often taken from a misinterpretation (as I see it) of Dan 9, where I think the Roman leadership unconsciously confirms God's covenant with His People by putting Jesus to death. As such, this would not be a "peace treaty!"

It may be. I also think the restoration of the two-faceted Roman Empire is part of the healing of the "mortal wound." But I'm not sure about a lot of this. Thanks for your thoughts.

We are no longer under the old covenant, but a better and new covenant through Christ Jesus.

Revelation was given to John in visions as prophecies that had their beginnings in the Old Testament, being fulfilled in the New Testament and yet much to be fulfilled in future events before the great and terrible day of the Lords return.

Revelation is given to all nations and tongues that live throughout the whole world as in Jew and Gentile. Israel is mainly mentioned, but not all of Israel is Gods chosen people. Those who are washed in the blood of the Lamb are joined as a branch with Israel as God is the root of that branch and those who are sealed by His Holy Spirit are His own who find favor in Him, Romans 11:11-31. This is why our attention needs to be on those things that are happening in Israel, especially Jerusalem as being Gods Holy City.

Within Gods final chastisement on man He continues to call them to repentance and one has to take into consideration during the time of the seven trumpets sounding what God pours out that destroys man will be a third part of every nation simultaneously being destroyed unless they repent and turn back to God. This also includes those who call themselves a Christian, but by name only as they have not Gods Holy Spirit dwelling in them and will also be destroyed, Matthew 7:21.

 

[Elijah7777]

Right. The 144,000 is a difficult one. Can't say I've ever been sure of it. I really don't think it's 12 literal Jewish tribes.

"I believe the Bible is referring to the Hasidic community, as they are the only group that fits the qualifications. Not only do they remain virgins until marriage, but it is also possible that God has preserved their purity throughout the years. The only place where we have evidence of this preservation is with the Cohens. If one tribe has been preserved, then it is possible that the other eleven have also been sustained by God."

The movie: "A Stranger Among us" talks a lot about their purity and how they save themselves for marriage. As she tries to seduce the Rabbi's son and he tries to explain their ways to her. She did not get anywhere with the line: We do not have to tell anyone, no one needs to know. They just do not follow the ways of the world.

 

[Elijah7777]

We are no longer under the old covenant, but a better and new covenant through Christ Jesus.

Moses prophesied about the coming of Jesus in Deuteronomy 18:15-22, where he spoke of a future prophet who would be like him and whom the people must listen to. Many Christians interpret this as a reference to Jesus, who fulfilled the law and brought a new covenant.

 

[RandyK]

We are no longer under the old covenant, but a better and new covenant through Christ Jesus.

Are you on the basis we are under a "new covenant" scrapping all OT Prophecy? Are you discarding OT promises made to Abraham even before the Law was given? The NT relies heavily on OT Prophecy, and in fact the early Church relied much on the OT Bible without living under the OT system. The promises, prophecies, and moral code of God remain forever. The word of God endures forever.

Revelation was given to John in visions as prophecies that had their beginnings in the Old Testament, being fulfilled in the New Testament and yet much to be fulfilled in future events before the great and terrible day of the Lords return.

Revelation is given to all nations and tongues that live throughout the whole world as in Jew and Gentile. Israel is mainly mentioned, but not all of Israel is Gods chosen people. Those who are washed in the blood of the Lamb are joined as a branch with Israel as God is the root of that branch and those who are sealed by His Holy Spirit are His own who find favor in Him, Romans 11:11-31. This is why our attention needs to be on those things that are happening in Israel, especially Jerusalem as being Gods Holy City.

I agree. The New Covenant has begun with the nations. But it was initially offered to Israel, and is prophesied to apply to Israel in OT Prophecy. That day will come, I believe. We are agreed on that apparently?

Within Gods final chastisement on man He continues to call them to repentance and one has to take into consideration during the time of the seven trumpets sounding what God pours out that destroys man will be a third part of every nation simultaneously being destroyed unless they repent and turn back to God. This also includes those who call themselves a Christian, but by name only as they have not Gods Holy Spirit dwelling in them and will also be destroyed, Matthew 7:21.

I agree. Thank you.

 

[RandyK]

"I believe the Bible is referring to the Hasidic community, as they are the only group that fits the qualifications. Not only do they remain virgins until marriage, but it is also possible that God has preserved their purity throughout the years. The only place where we have evidence of this preservation is with the Cohens. If one tribe has been preserved, then it is possible that the other eleven have also been sustained by God."

The movie: "A Stranger Among us" talks a lot about their purity and how they save themselves for marriage. As she tries to seduce the Rabbi's son and he tries to explain their ways to her. She did not get anywhere with the line: We do not have to tell anyone, no one needs to know. They just do not follow the ways of the world.

I believe this is just "spiritual language." I don't think it's talking about celibacy, but about ritual purity under the Law as it is fulfilled in Christian holiness, whether in marriage or without it.

It isn't practical, in my view, to see tribes of Israel in existence anymore. Sure, Jewish names may sound like they came from a priestly tribe, or some other tribe, but the tribal lands themselves no longer have any validity, nor do any genealogies. Or, if there are genealogies, they have no practical value in terms of dispensing certain tribal rights.

So this all goes back to reflect on God's original promise to the 12 tribes to make them into a great and godly nation. It begins, apparently, with only a representative, but equal minority, indicating that God has been impartial to the Jewish People, but can only bring this about via a remnant of the entire nation. But God is, in fact, bringing about Israel's national salvation, which even if it starts with political matters will ultimately end with spiritual matters.