The right way to suffer.

[Kidron]

In the life of a born again believer, there can be times, seasons, where we have difficulties.
However, as Jesus came and died to give us life and that more abundantly, (John 10:10) then he is completely against himself and his kingdom becomes divided against itself if he turns right around and takes your money and your health after he saves you.
Now get that.
So, "hard times" caused by God/Christ, and "life more abundantly" given by God/Christ, are never going to match up.

Listen....the "hard times" a Christian is supposed to endure have only to do with being persecuted for the sake of righteousness.
I'll say it again.
The "hard times" a Christian is supposed to endure have only to do with being persecuted for righteousness sake.
WE are supposed to suffer for our FAITH, IF there is going to be any real suffering we have to do.
Now, understand this principle...^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^VVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVV
>>>>>Persecution because of your faith is tribulation.<<<<<<
Destruction, (sickness and poverty) is Satanic and is not NOT tribulation.
Persecution, comes in the form of tribulation because the same world system that crucified your Lord, also hates you to death .
Destruction, is Satanic,.. is not tribulation......destruction is the wiles of the devil, its John 10:10 ...its the force of death and misery coming against your money, and your health, and your happiness.
Do not confuse Satanic destruction with tribulation that you will experience if you serve the Gospel to the world.
If you do, you will think that God and Satan are the same regarding what happens to you in life.
Learn to Discern the difference between being persecuted for your faith and being attacked in your person by the devil.

Child of God,...its your devoted and ever constant enemy the devil who brings into your personal life destruction in any area he can deliver it....stealing Money, ruining health, divorce, whatever.
Or, it is by the very mouths of God's redeemed, speaking negative faith, that brings the curses and intense life difficulties.
Do you speak negative faith?
Do you speak words against your own prosperity, health, or circumstance in life?
Dont do that.

Saint, it is Father God who restores and its the devil who destroys (in the life of a believer).
Do not confuse this.
There is no, "well sometimes the devil is a good guy you can trust and sometimes Jesus gives you cancer to test your faith".
Listen.....God will test your faithful HEART, but he is not going to make you sick to do it.
God will test your obedience, but he does not test this by giving you Muscular Dystrophy and then sit by for a decade watching how well you adjust to being in a wheelchair drooling and unable to even wash your body with soap.

Some Christians read were Paul suffered and decide that they are supposed to be stoned and beaten and shipwrecked as well.
They just substitute "poverty and sickness" for "shipwrecked and stoned".
So, they LOOK for some type of hardship and once they find it, they say..."well, God gave me this to make me better, deeper, stronger".
And the reality is, that God is sitting there wondering what is up with this believer, whom he gave his SON for, so that this believer can do something for God .
How incredibly blind and wrong and backwards and off the mark is the child of God, whom God died to forgive,..who is only interested in playing self made martyr games with themselves and wastes years in this mental cage instead of ever winning a soul, ever growing up in Christ, or ever even learning the basic fundamentals of the faith.

Saint, God didnt save you to then make you sick and broke,.. he saved you so that you can get out there beyond the church walls and do his WILL and bring some souls into the family.
He saved you so that this world, through Christ in you, can have a last chance at redemption.
He saved you because he loves you so much that he died for you to prove it.
Now its your turn to love him back, and you love him back best when you are doing his will using the very authority of Jesus Christ that he has given you to execute on his behalf every day of your life.

Dont you realize that you are a lost soul collector?
Your job, your calling, your ministry, is to collect the lost for the sake of the Cross.
Your main purpose to now exist redeemed before God is to bring the lost to the Blood of Jesus and get them washed in it.
Understand?
Thats job 1.
Nothing else in your personal life even rates against this, and you were restored and Spiritually recreated in Christ's image to do this very thing.
Thats Job 1.
Never forget this.




K

 

[Jethro Bodine]

..."hard times", and "life more abundantly", are never going to match up.

That doesn't seem to be Paul's testimony. He succeeded in spite of and alongside his hardships:

"7 But we have this treasure (God's glory) in jars of clay to show that this all-surpassing power is from God and not from us. 8 We are hard pressed on every side, but not crushed; perplexed, but not in despair; 9 persecuted, but not abandoned; struck down, but not destroyed. 10 We always carry around in our body the death of Jesus, so that the life of Jesus may also be revealed in our body. 11 For we who are alive are always being given over to death for Jesus’ sake, so that his life may be revealed in our mortal body." (2 Corinthians 4:7-11 NIV1984)

My experience seems to be the same. Abundance is not the absence of trouble and distress. It's thriving in spite of trouble and distress.

Your main purpose to now exist redeemed before God is to bring the lost to the Blood of Jesus and get them washed in it.
Understand?
Thats job 1.
Nothing else in your personal life even rates against this, and you were restored and Spiritually recreated in Christ's image to do this very thing.
Thats Job 1.
Never forget this.

I'm pretty sure job 1 is living the truth yourself. I don't know what good it does to share a gospel that you yourself are not being obedient to. There's no reward in that:

"27 No, I beat my body and make it my slave so that after I have preached to others, I myself will not be disqualified for the prize." (1 Corinthians 9:27 NIV1984)


Job 1 means living obedient lives built on the foundation of Christ's commands, but there are many who will think their ministerial works were Job 1 and will beg for entry into the kingdom based on those works:

19 Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. 20 Thus, by their fruit you will recognize them.

21 “Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. 22 Many will say to me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and in your name drive out demons and perform many miracles?’ 23 Then I will tell them plainly, ‘I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!’ (Matthew 7:19-23 NIV1984)


Living out the fruit of the Spirit is Job 1. From there you will be an "instrument for noble purposes, made holy, useful to the Master and prepared to do any good work" (2 Timothy 2:21 NIV) having been cleansed of ignoble and unclean things.

 

[for_his_glory]

Consider the sufferings of Job who lost everything by the hands of Satan, but praised the Lord through his sufferings. He had his disgruntle moments, but never left his faith in God.

Job 1:6-12

6 Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan came also among them.

7 And the LORD said unto Satan, Whence comest thou? Then Satan answered the LORD, and said, From going to and fro in the earth, and from walking up and down in it.

8 And the LORD said unto Satan, Hast thou considered my servant Job, that there is none like him in the earth, a perfect and an upright man, one that feareth God, and escheweth evil?

9 Then Satan answered the LORD, and said, Doth Job fear God for nought?

10 Hast not thou made an hedge about him, and about his house, and about all that he hath on every side? thou hast blessed the work of his hands, and his substance is increased in the land.

11 But put forth thine hand now, and touch all that he hath, and he will curse thee to thy face.

12And the LORD said unto Satan, Behold, all that he hath is in thy power; only upon himself put not forth thine hand. So Satan went forth from the presence of the LORD.

 

[Kidron]

That doesn't seem to be Paul's testimony. He succeeded in spite of and alongside his hardships:


And what does your comment have to do with my thread except to prove my point.
Did you read my thread or just read the title and sort of skim my post?
Listen...
Paul's "hardships' were 95% based on being persecuted for his faith..(Stoning, Prison, being beaten with whips).
Sometimes lazy Christians would not send him the money for his support as they were supposed to do it., so when that happened he got a bit hungry and learned 2 things.
1.)Christians hate to tithe, and 2.)he is going to be hungry at times because of Christians who didnt want to give.
So, he wrote about this, and described it as learning how to be happy with a lot and learning how to be happy eating bread and water in a cave.
Its a FACT that Paul suffered because of his outreach ministry and because of his incredible faith and outspokeness..
He was stoned, beaten, imprisoned, because OF his Ministry, and THAT IS persecution for his faith.
He called this his "sufferings for Christ".
Can you see it?
If you can, then you will realize that my thread is devoted to helping you separate and identify the idea of Satanic destruction of your life FROM ministry<>tribulation based situations that Paul or any Christian is going to experience if they do the will of God.
See, many Christians actually think that sickness and poverty are generated by God in the life of a child of God.
However, this is not the case, not in Paul's life or in any believers.
But rather its the enemies of the cross who will persecute you, as they did Paul and Jesus, and its the Father of Lies himself who will come to your life to destroy it.
These are 2 separate issues.
Persecution<>Tribulation<>Gospel Ministry<>Paul<> any believer who preaches, teaches, witnesses, etc.
Satan<>Destruction<>wiles of the Devil ...John 10:10
So, dont confuse them or you will falsely believe that God is the author of sickness and destruction, when in fact he is the author of blessings, health, wholeness, restoration, and prosperity, or as Jesus who is God said..."life more abundantly..


"7 But we have this treasure (God's glory) in jars of clay to show that this all-surpassing power is from God and not from us. 8 We are hard pressed on every side, but not crushed; perplexed, but not in despair; 9 persecuted, but not abandoned; struck down, but not destroyed.


But not by God......never by God....so, dont confuse being persecuted for the Faith as Paul is describing in that verse, with what the Devil does to your health or finances if he can..
Never confuse this with God.



10 We always carry around in our body the death of Jesus, so that the life of Jesus may also be revealed in our body. 11 For we who are alive are always being given over to death for Jesus’ sake, so that his life may be revealed in our mortal body." (2 Corinthians 4:7-11 NIV1984)[/COLOR]

Exactly.......he is explaining to you that because of his faith and because of his ministry he is always being PERSECUTED.....and often that was extreme....even to death.
But God, never does it to Paul.....so, be sure you are clear about this fact.
God does not persecute or destroy his children.
Thats the world and the devil, so be sure you understand this when you read or post those scriptures, or people here might begin to believe that you are using these scriptures to try to blame God for Paul's suffering and theirs...


My experience seems to be the same. Abundance is not the absence of trouble and distress. It's thriving in spite of trouble and distress.


Well whatever you are saying here, there is one thing for certain.
Persecution for the believer only comes in the form of tribulation, and that is always related to difficulties that are a type of friction where the world meets the ministry.
This has nothing to do with being sick or being broke which comes from the one who uses demons, who uses poverty and lack, and who brings sickness to destroy.
So be sure u are clear about the difference between suffering persecution for the sake of the Cross as often shown by the life of Paul , and suffering that is brought to you by negative faith, or by the devil which is detruction of your life, money, health.
Separate the two so that God is not being blamed for the devil's work.
Its never a good theological position to accuse God of the devil's work.
Jesus didnt like it when the pharisees did it and he is not happy to be blamed 2000 years later.
Lets give the devil his due and lets not attribute his due to God who IS Love.


I'm pretty sure job 1 is living the truth yourself. I don't know what good it does to share a gospel that you yourself are not being obedient to. There's no reward in that:


Well, im certain that God saved you to save others.
And even if you are "obedient" to the Gospel or not as you should be, the Word of God does not need your perfect walk to be effective... as it never returns void if its planted...It just needs to be shared and then its God's responsibility, and not ours, to draw the lost to the cross.
Remember that Jesus said, "if i be lifted up, I WILL DRAW".
So, our job is to lift him up, share him , and leave the consequences to God.

Have you never read where Paul said that in good faith or not, in contention or not, in sincerity or not, as long as the Gospel is being preached, it does its job....so let'er rip.., when you're feeling good or you're feeling sad, when you're walking the walk or when you are fallen and are trying to get up.
2nd Timothy 4:2..."Preach the word; be instant in season, out of season"
See, the Word of God does not need anyone's faith walk to save, as faith comes by HEARING.
Faith does not come to the hearer by your lifestyle, Mr Bodine...it comes when you tell someone the Gospel.
The Gospel is God's Word and the preaching of the Cross IS the Power of God, and that has NOTHING to do with your obedient living.
Now, its a fine thing that you are concerned that your lifestyle reflects your faith.
Good job, well done.
But never think your lifestyle is the necessary requirement for the Gospel and the Power of the message of the Cross to be effective.
A "silent witness" is no witness.
This is why he told the disciples to "Go into all the world", and it was after he told them this, that he began to teach them doctrine..., most of which came from Paul who they didnt even meet for many years.
So, the main thing is for us to deliver the souls to the Kingdom and this can be done even if you know little or nothing about the bible and even if your faith walk is strong of if it could be a whole lot better.

You obedience is working out your own salvation, but that is not your ministry, that is your discipleship.
Your ministry, is your Job, and that job is to bring the lost to the Cross.
Your discipleship is your life, not your spiritual vocation.
You are sent.
Thats your job.
See, its God who will continue the good work he started in you until the day of Jesus Christ by pruning the clay and chastening every Son he receives..., but its you who wins the lost using the Gospel by preaching/witnessing about the Cross.




K

..................

 

[Kidron]

Consider the sufferings of Job who lost everything by the hands of Satan,

He never lost his faith in God and he never blamed God for what Satan "brought".
Its a shame that so many Christians, unlike Job, try to blame God for poverty, sickness, unanswered prayers, etc.

Sometimes the difficult thing to accept is that God is always for us.
He is own our side.
He wants us to succeed, 1st because any Father wants there children to suceed, and also because when we succeed its a reflection on him and of him.
Its the goodness of God that leads us to repent.
Its the peace of God that we miss when we are not close to him and everything feels wrong and nothing goes right.
Or as someone said..."if you think obedience is hard, trying living in disobedience for a while and see how that works out for you".

And its a sad day for Christianity when lost people are led to believe by Christians that "God made them sick" or "God brings poverty as a test".

 

[reba]

Kidron,

if your not the wealthiest and most healthy man, in the world today your a hypocrite.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

He called this his "sufferings for Christ".
Can you see it?
If you can, then you will realize that my thread is devoted to helping you separate and identify the idea of Satanic destruction of your life FROM ministry<>tribulation based situations that Paul or any Christian is going to experience if they do the will of God.
See, many Christians actually think that sickness and poverty are generated by God in the life of a child of God.

This is another one of those subjects that gets swept too far to both extremes, the truth being somewhere in the middle. And this one particularly is grabbing the proverbial dog by the ears when you try to pull the two competing extremes toward the center. So, not gonna try to do that. I just want to point out that generally speaking what you say is correct. But it gets dragged to an unscriptural extreme.

It's interesting to note that I've never met or heard of a teacher who teaches this extreme view to have suffered for Christ the way Paul did because they had chosen to devote themselves to the will and work of God. Somehow their 'sufferings for Christ' don't include poverty, hunger, and shabby clothes because of negligent tithers. For all the guff Joel Osteen gets I will say he is one of the few 'prosperity teachers' who acknowledges the sufferings of patiently waiting on God, being faithful to do good, and being made a better person for it.

I don't deny that sickness and poverty are the work of the evil one in an evil world largely separated from God's goodness, but you can't forget that God is the one who gives and develops the faith to lay hold of his promises. He denied the children of Israel access to the abundance of the Promised Land for a predetermined amount of time until they were prepared through the ministry of their sufferings to walk in the faith he then gave them to boldly enter in.

So it is for us. Until the doubting, faithless fighting man within us perishes we, too, will wander the desert until that man dies. And God knows how long it takes for that to happen, not us. But some will tell you that you can strap on the armor of your own determination and advance on the promises of God before you actually have the God given faith to do so.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

...even if you are "obedient" to the Gospel or not as you should be, the Word of God does not need your perfect walk to be effective... as it never returns void if its planted...It just needs to be shared and then its God's responsibility, and not ours, to draw the lost to the cross.

Yes, God is able to save others despite our hypocrisy and our failures. No argument from me on that. But you brought this up as to what it means to us. It is God's will that you live what you preach. Paul said that is what makes an effective worker of the gospel who is himself eligible for the prize. Good fruit comes from good trees. Stay away from bad trees (as evidenced by their fruit).

Faith does not come to the hearer by your lifestyle, Mr Bodine...it comes when you tell someone the Gospel.
The Gospel is God's Word and the preaching of the Cross IS the Power of God, and that has NOTHING to do with your obedient living.

Nothing? That's too extreme. It's very true that you can actually defeat the work of the gospel by how you live. Just as you can enhance the work of the gospel by how you live. The greatest testimony is the testimony of the obedient life. The greatest hinderance? Hypocrisy. But "(n)evertheless, God’s solid foundation stands firm, sealed with this inscription: “The Lord knows those who are his” (1 Timothy 1:19 NIV1984).

But never think your lifestyle is the necessary requirement for the Gospel and the Power of the message of the Cross to be effective.

People who aren't living the gospel very well, for whatever reason, should really stay out of the spot light as far as proclaiming the gospel. Unpresentable parts of the body are treated with modesty, and should be cared for, but should also be covered up.

A "silent witness" is no witness.

Actually, sometimes it is. I wish more Christians had the 'silent witness' of their obedient lives instead of the overbearing talk of a disobedient walk.

So, the main thing is for us to deliver the souls to the Kingdom and this can be done even if you know little or nothing about the bible and even if your faith walk is strong of if it could be a whole lot better.

The main thing? No. The main thing as far as I go personally is that I continue in the faith myself. What good is it if I save someone else but lose my own soul in a life of deteriorating faithfulness to God that eventually leads me into apostasy? For me, none of course.

You obedience is working out your own salvation, but that is not your ministry, that is your discipleship.
Your ministry, is your Job, and that job is to bring the lost to the Cross.

I agree with the distinction between personal obedience and ministry. I say it's a BIG mistake to think your ministry is more important than your personal obedience. The externals of the faith will NEVER atone for the disobedience of ungodly character. NEVER. This is the mistake the Israelites made. It's a very prevelant deceit among the people of God to this very day--thinking that somehow your ministry works make up for a disobedient personal life.

You are sent.
Thats your job.
See, its God who will continue the good work he started in you until the day of Jesus Christ by pruning the clay and chastening every Son he receives..., but its you who wins the lost using the Gospel by preaching/witnessing about the Cross.

There are various jobs that the various members of the body perform through it's various gifts. One should know where their gift operates and be faithful to that and not let others tell them what they should be doing and to what extent they should be doing it. Some plant seeds. Some water where seed is already planted and growing. Both are needed for the harvest. 'Job 1' for me might be different than 'Job 1' for someone else. And both should acknowledge and respect that. Some of the worst division in the body is caused by the very thing that God gave to bind us together--our varying gifts.

 

[Kidron]

Kidron,

if your not the wealthiest and most healthy man, in the world today your a hypocrite.

Reba,


>Proverbs 26:4
>Luke 6:37




God loves you.



be blessed,

 

[Kidron]

This is another one of those subjects that gets swept too far to both extremes, the truth being somewhere in the middle.


What i gave you is not in the middle and its so easy to see that even a blind man can see it.
Here it is again.

The devil comes to destroy you.
Jesus came to save you and restore you.
The Devil comes to steal from you.
Jesus came to give you life and that that more abundantly.
Satan the liar, comes to deceive you.
Jesus the Truth, came to give you light and direction and wisdom.
Satan comes to make you sick.
Jesus came to heal you by his stripes.

So, what the Christian has to do, is come to the place of revelation where they no longer attribute the works of Satan to the will of God.
>very important<
They have to come to the place where they are able to understand and discern the difference between suffering for the Cross as persecution and tribulation, vs recognizing being destroyed by the devil, and or by their negative faith.


It's interesting to note that I've never met or heard of a teacher who teaches this extreme view to have suffered for Christ the way Paul did because they had chosen to devote themselves to the will and work of God.

You have the extreme view.
U are the one who is arguing with me, who is not agreeing that persecution for the sake of the cross is what we are to expect.
And my disagreement with you is that sickness and poverty is not being "persecuted" for the Cross., but rather this is being destroyed by the devil, usually based on lack of knowledge related to understanding your authority in Christ.

Also, im well acquainted with suffering for the Lord.
Im in Israel, and if i preach/witness on the street here, things get intense.
If i do it on Shabbat, on a street filled with black suited rabbinical jews, im asking to get hurt, maybe killed.
These type jews are serious enemies of the Cross.
So, you've nothing to say to me about "a preacher that does not understand suffering for the Lord."
Ok?



Somehow their 'sufferings for Christ' don't include poverty, hunger, and shabby clothes because of negligent tithers. For all the guff Joel Osteen gets I will say he is one of the few 'prosperity teachers' who acknowledges the sufferings of patiently waiting on God, being faithful to do good, and being made a better person for it.


As i said in this thread, and i'll say it again as apparently you never even read the 1st few sentences i wrote .
There are seasons in any Christian's life where we have trouble.
There are times we have to wait upon the Lord.
Trouble comes with the ministry as surely as the moon comes with the night.
However, there are some types of trouble that have nothing to do with a Son of God's life.
And the reason is because of what Jesus has provided.
He provided stripes for your sickness.
He provided wounds and death for your forgiveness.
He provided personal poverty so that you could have his Glory as well as his ability to get finances as you need them for your personal life and for doing the will of God.
These are all free, and come with your "joint heir" Salvation status.


I don't deny that sickness and poverty are the work of the evil one in an evil world largely separated from God's goodness, but you can't forget that God is the one who gives and develops the faith to lay hold of his promises.

No, he does not give or develop your faith, unless we pray for faith or unless he gives a special type of faith that is one of the gift's of the Spirit.
He does give every believer a measure of faith to start with..
But if did it all, then no Christian would ever live without it.....would they?
You work it out just like you work out your salvation and your discipleship.
And most Christians have about as much faith when they are born again as they have 30 years later.

Faith is just like riches in Glory.
Its available, but we, not God, WE, have to develop it by USE of Faith.
Faith is a spiritual muscle and it grows when we exercise it and atrophies when we dont use it.
And the way you go to the faith gym to start, is you get the revelation of who you are in Christ so that you come to deeply lean on the fact and truth that you have access to all God has, all God is, and all he can Do.
Because, as Christ is God, and You are "in Christ", then you have access to the very power of the almighty on tap.
However, empowering it, is only achieved by REVELATION of who you are so that you can then behave accordingly and exercise it..

Christ knew who he was.....he had no doubts.
He left heaven and became a servant on earth, but he always KNEW he was a KING.
Understand?
He bowed, but he didnt lose his spiritual authority or his rank.
He is God who became a man.. the Word made flesh.
He is a Son of God right out of the womb just like you became one the day you received Him by faith as your sin bearer and righteousness giver..
So, what we have to do, is recognize OUR authority= is HIS authority.
We are IN HIM, and he is IN US, and we are IN GOD, and this eternal connection allows us to function exactly as they do because they are functioning through us...

Its our right as a citizen of Heaven and a Son of the Most High to do the works of God and Christ..
Its who we are saved to be...
Have you ever considered that you are going to come back with Jesus and rule and reign?
So, do u not understand that this is because of who you have become "in Christ" already?
You are not going to level up later on.
You are already a joint heir with Christ.
You are already IN the family.
You are already a Son of God.
Your eternal position has RANK, it has AUTHORITY, > right now <.
That is why God sends us out.......Its because he already recognizes who we are in the family and has already given us all the equipment to do his will.
Our part is to come to the revelation of who we are IN HIM and act accordingly, and part of this is to recognize our right of access to the Power of God within the Kingdom of Jesus,... is the same as the Lords..
Its the same as his, JB.


He denied the children of Israel access to the abundance of the Promised Land for a predetermined amount of time until they were prepared through the ministry of their sufferings to walk in the faith he then gave them to boldly enter in.

Well, you are not a Jew , in the Old Testament, under the law.
So, stop reaching back 3500 years for something that does not belong to a gentile, who is a Son of God and a Joint Heir with Jesus The Christ right now.



K

..................

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Well, you are not a Jew , in the Old Testament, under the law.
So, stop reaching back 3500 years for something that does not belong to a gentile, who is a Son of God and a Joint Heir with Jesus The Christ right now.

No, I'm not going to stop reaching back and learning from a time in history that Paul says we should heed and learn from now:

6 Now these things occurred as examples to keep us from setting our hearts on evil things as they did. 7 Do not be idolaters, as some of them were; as it is written: “The people sat down to eat and drink and got up to indulge in pagan revelry.” 8 We should not commit sexual immorality, as some of them did—and in one day twenty-three thousand of them died. 9 We should not test the Lord, as some of them did—and were killed by snakes. 10 And do not grumble, as some of them did —and were killed by the destroying angel.

11 These things happened to them as examples and were written down as warnings for us..." (1 Corinthians 10:6-11 NIV1984)


It's important to know that God set a predetermined time that he knew was needed to kill off the fighting, unbelieving man within Israel that was keeping him from entering boldly into the abundance of God.

As far as the promises of God and the truth about who robs us of that abundance you're speaking to the choir here. What you and other people fail to acknowledge is it is God who knows what it takes to prepare a person to enter faithfully into those promises. The people of God did not accept the sure Word of faith when God brought them out of Egypt. He knew it required a forty year period of time outside of the promises for them to gladly and willingly and boldly believe God when God opened up another opportunity to enter into his promises.

Abundance meaning gross excess, and the 'I can have it now if I want' are two very big errors of an otherwise legitimate and accurate 'prosperity' teaching (generally speaking). But like I say, it's like grabbing a dog by the ears to bring people to the real truth about it. You'll get bit from one side or the other from people polarized in the two unreasonable and unscriptural extreme beliefs about the matter.

 

[Kidron]

Nothing? That's too extreme. It's very true that you can actually defeat the work of the gospel by how you live..

The work of the gospel?
Im simply saying that the Message of the Gospel, when preached, is the device that God uses to convict the hearer and from this, they ither receive the message with faith or not.
So, If you are talking about, for example, how you are perceived on your job day to day....or how you are viewed in church from week to week....or what your family knows about your sins and your shortcomings....
That is a totally different issue then what im talking about.
Im keeping it very simple and very focused here, JB, and so, im simply saying that the message and not messenger is what God uses to convict, draw, and save.
We dont preach ourselves, we preach a message, and that message is the gospel.
Consider that unless you are preaching to your family, friends, or on the job where everyone sees you everyday, you are going to be sharing the message to someone who has no knowledge of your personal history, so your "walk of faith" has no influence on them,.... but the message that Christ died for their sins, will have an impact, as its the message, and not your lifestyle that bears fruit in the heart of a hearer.
Remember that "faith cometh by hearing" in an unbeliever.........ok?
It does not say that faith cometh by watching your behavior.




People who aren't living the gospel very well, for whatever reason, should really stay out of the spot light as far as proclaiming the gospel. Unpresentable parts of the body are treated with modesty, and should be cared for, but should also be covered up.

Well, we are all saved works in progress, you know?
Even the mighty Reba or Mike the professional Mod here, would tell you that they are not perfect....
Nor am I.;)
So, fortunately, the gospel message is already perfect.
And all we need to do is share it and leave the responsibility of saving to the one who does that.




Actually, sometimes it is. I wish more Christians had the 'silent witness' of their obedient lives instead of the overbearing talk of a disobedient walk.


In general, its been my experience that people who are afraid to go up to a stranger and talk to them about their need for salvation, will always defend this by saying..."well, i believe in letting my life be my witness".
Now, im certain that this is not you, but, what ive noticed is that a Christian who has no interest in winning a soul to Christ, will always try to dodge the issue by talking about... "my life is my witness".
Now just imagine if Christ had never open his mouth and instead just walked around "quietly" sinless.
So, we need to open our mouths., we need to share our faith, and if this is noticeably uncomfortable at first , then thats about right.
No one likes to be rejected, and no one likes to be avoided, but, the importance of realizing that if we dont witness means that people are going to hell forever,...therefore, this has got to override our bashful shy feelings about sharing the truth, the gospel..
And what a believer will notice, is that once you step out and enter that realm of sharing your faith, God will empower you to do it.... and once he does this, you will find it to be a different experience then you thought it would be.
God will always give you a Holy Boldness when you step into the work and get off the bench.
God's work does not require you to speak well, have nice hair, and a perfect physique...
But it does require some bible study, some devotion, and some effort.
I'll tell you something about God you may not yet know.
He is not concerned with your success, as much as he is concerned with your effort.
See, your success in his work, is his problem, not yours.
Your problem is committing to giving him your total effort.
You give him your effort ..thats your part, and your success gained by your effort is his part.
No need to worry about his part., just be concerned with your part.
See.....God will always do his part, ......IF we will only do ours...

The main thing as far as I go personally is that I continue in the faith myself. What good is it if I save someone else but lose my own soul in a life of deteriorating faithfulness to God that eventually leads me into apostasy? For me, none of course.

Ok, so you are going to continue to try to save yourself.??????
Very bad idea, JB.
If i were you, i would trust Christ to do it instead.
Then you dont have to worry about it ever again.
Listen, you can't ever lose your soul, as God now owns it.
He bought it with the blood of Christ.
You dont own it, and you cant have it back.
So, stop being concerned to follow God because you think you can be lost.
You can never be lost.
You can never be taken out of the family of God after you are adopted into it.
See, you are bought with a price, and that price was the sacrifice of Jesus on the cross.
And after God paid for you with the Eternal Blood of his Son, you are no longer yours..
And you can never do anything to find yourself separated from God ever again.
It cant be done.
See, you cant undo by your lifestyle what Jesus did for you by giving you his.
You can unsave yourself, because you didnt save yourself.
He saved you, and he keeps you saved.........forever


I agree with the distinction between personal obedience and ministry. I say it's a BIG mistake to think your ministry is more important than your personal obedience.

Your ministry is the fruit of your obedience, JB.
If you are in the ministry, that is to say, if you are witnessing, if you are studying your bible daily, if you are giving to the poor, if you are teaching the converts, if you are involved in some type of outreach....all this IS proof of your obedience.
However, if a believer spends more time on Facebook then they spend in prayer and daily mental fellowship with God,..... if they spend more money on fast food per month then they give to the poor,.....if they never witness ,... if they spend more time playing with their Iphone and Ipod Apps then they spend thinking about God or studying doctrinally sound Christian books,..... if they spend more time each day watching cable movies or cable tv then they spend with their bible,... then this person is basically a fake.....and has no real walk of faith, and they are not growing in grace, and they can forget having a prayer answered when a crisis comes or any other time.
They are probably saved, but they are not developing as they should.
Look, what you give your time to, proves what you love.
"you shall know them by their fruit", = you shall know them by how they consistently spend their time (or waste it).
If God gets less of your time per day then Facebook, or your Cell phone, or your TV, then there is some backsliding in progress.


There are various jobs that the various members of the body perform through it's various gifts. One should know where their gift operates and be faithful to that and not let others tell them what they should be doing and to what extent they should be doing it. Some plant seeds.


Actually JB, we are not "gifted" to witness....We are commanded to do it.
We are not "gifted" to share our faith,...We are required to do it.
As a matter of fact, if the love of God is in us, then we will love what he loves, and he loves the salvation of the lost.
He loves it so much, he sent his only begotten from heaven to save them.

So, dont confuse all this with the 5 fold ministry within the body of Christ.
Each of us has a testimony, has a mouth, and has the Gospel truth.
We dont need to be called to be an "evangelist" to go to our neighbor and invite them to our church, and or, share our faith with them on a Saturday, when they are outside messing around with their yard or cooking steak on their grill..
Understand?
Each of us must proclaim the truth and stand for it, and the main part of this is to share the Good news of Jesus Christ's redemption plan to the lost.
Imagine, JB, if the person who led you to Christ, said what you are saying.
>>"oh, its not my gift to win souls".<<
Think about that before you continue to believe that its everyone else's responsibility to win souls.
The fact is.........we are saved for this purpose.
Its job 1



K

.........

 

[Mike]

Kidron, if it walks like a duck, quacks like a duck, and looks like a duck, it's probably a duck. Prosperity preaching with different words is still prosperity preaching.

Paul said he had been with and without but that the key is to be content in all circumstances. Part of that statement is that we should be content with what He has seen fit to provide for us when we're going "without".

How do you reconcile what Paul wrote with what you're saying?

 

[Kidron]

Kidron, if it walks like a duck, quacks like a duck, and looks like a duck, it's probably a duck. Prosperity preaching with different words is still prosperity preaching.

Paul said he had been with and without but that the key is to be content in all circumstances. Part of that statement is that we should be content with what He has seen fit to provide for us when we're going "without".

How do you reconcile what Paul wrote with what you're saying?

Well, to begin with, There is no "prosperity gospel", in my Thread.
My thread deals with 2 issues, mike, and you might try reading my thread before you comment to me next time.
That would be the right thing to do.
No,... my thread is very clear.
Its simply states that suffering for Christ has to do with ministry persecution for the sake of the Cross, and never to do with being sick .
So, the right type of suffering we do as believers has to do with the work of the ministry, be it related to witnessing or preaching or the usual resistance you will encounter on forums like this one just trying to teach Christians who are bogged down with bad theology the way back into the light.
.
So, Mike, how you managed to mangle, offend, and spin my thread into some lame comment about "prosperity gospel", is very interesting.
I suggest you make a comment actually related to the Thread you are on.
That would be more suitable for an authentic mod on a Christian forum....in my opinion.
Im certain you can do a lot better next time.


K

 

[reba]

Reba,


>Proverbs 26:4
>Luke 6:37

God loves you.

be blessed,

Surly you will not die.

Pro 26:4 Answer not a fool according to his folly, lest thou also be like unto him.
Luk 6:37 Judge not, and ye shall not be judged: condemn not, and ye shall not be condemned: forgive, and ye shall be forgiven:
OK i Will play..

Mat 5:22 But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment: and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council: but whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire.


Joh 7:24 Judge not according to the appearance, but judge righteous judgment.


Which is it Kidron? are you the wealthiest, healthiest person on earth or are you a hypocrite?


Do you not practice what you preach at others?

 

[jasoncran]

kidron im a jew.

 

[Kidron]

kidron im a jew.

So is my wife....(She's a Russian/part Jew.
Im a gentile, BUT, im also a Spiritual Jew as ive been grafted in...

 

[Kidron]

Surly you will not die.

Pro 26:4 Answer not a fool according to his folly, lest thou also be like unto him.
Luk 6:37 Judge not, and ye shall not be judged: condemn not, and ye shall not be condemned: forgive, and ye shall be forgiven:
OK i Will play..

Mat 5:22 But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment: and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council: but whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire.


Joh 7:24 Judge not according to the appearance, but judge righteous judgment.


Which is it Kidron? are you the wealthiest, healthiest person on earth or are you a hypocrite?


Do you not practice what you preach at others?

Do i practice what the bible teaches a New Testament Christian?
absolutely.
But, i think you and your twin Mike, have a misunderstanding.
Both of you, have not really studied what i have been sharing.
For if you did, you would never think that i "preach wealth".
Nor would you think that i share some type of "prosperity gospel".
Its unfortunate that both of you jumped the gun and ran into a conclusion instead of actually paying attention to what i have been sharing for a few weeks now.
But you know, in Christianity there are always those that see things a certain way, and dont let the facts bother their vision.
So, i'll continue to share the good news regarding a Christian's true position of authority within the Kingdom of Heaven to those that want to know it and can deal with it.




K

 

[reba]

a rose by any other name is still a rose.

 

[Kidron]

a rose by any other name is still a rose.

You are a curious type of Christian.
You've read where i have stated that we are "joint heirs" not only with Christ, (Romans 8:17) but we are "heirs of God"..(Galatians 4:7) as well as "heirs" with Abraham..(Galatians 3:29)

And in all this, we as believers have such amazing blessings at our disposal.
Wonderful blessings.
And these blessings, based on our position as "heirs" in the family of God, are ours by right of Sonship and they included spiritual gifts, health, and material gain.
We are to take these blessings, these "riches in Glory" and use them for the work of God.
Period.
That's God's will for every believer.
WE are to "GO" and use what he has equipped us to use, and all these blessings, are available to us by faith.

Now, for a few weeks i have written very long and detailed threads and responses that simply flesh out this doctrinal truth using the above verses and quite a few others.
Its unfortunate that you and Mike have an issue with the God ordained authority of a Christian who is given divine rights to access all God has, all God is, and all that God can do.
Im not quite sure now to define what type Christian avoids the blessings of God, denies they are there and calls it "wealth chasing" to accept what God is giving, and tries to argue again and again against the reality of what a believer has become "in Christ".
Maybe you have a name for it?

Maybe you can tell us why you have an issue with the power of Christ in us and the blessing of God for us, based on us being saved and becoming "Heirs" to all that God has , which is to be used by us in the ministry service of the Kingdom of Christ.
Exactly what is it about this New Testament doctrinal teaching that brings you to my threads to deny it over and over.... and to call this equipping of the child of God based on his rightful position in the family of God, "prosperity gospel".??





K