The role of women in the church

[Imagican]

Quath,

I feel for ya friend. There are oft times that we have all had our doubts. This is the nature of humanity. Very few have ever been as sure of their Creator as Moses or Paul. Fortunately for us, our burden is easier to bare.

I challenge you though. When your life takes a turn for the worse, (everyone's does to one degree or another, it's all like a roller coaster ride, up and down), and you 'truly' want an answer from God, drop to you knees then and ask Him if He's there. If you Knock, He will answer. Sometimes you don't even have to knock, for He will do the knocking. Even then, you must hear and then let Him in. He really is there, I promise. Sometimes we just have to be READY for Him and perhaps your time is yet to come.

 

[BJGrolle]

Klee shay, I can only say one thing:

Amen!

:smt038

 

[AVBunyan]

AVbanyion, you insulted me big time. the way you talked to me is not much of Christian. you gave me a personal attack.

Is it possible that you may be to thin skinned for forums - :o

Mercy, there was no personal attack there - sorry you took it that way. Please show me where I "attacked" you personally.

If you believe it to be then take it up with the Moderators - I trust their judgment and will respect their decision if need be.

I asked you to review my posts on the subject and it appears you may not have. What I said to you was nothing different than what I've said many times before and nobody responded like you did.

I even had one poster tell me to my face I was lost - no big deal to me.

Later 8-)

By the way:

You talk about my attacks and attitude? See your “sweet, Christian†spirit at work:

All I know is that they are misleading people and made disaster with their theology. Shame on them!
Are you an OSAS supporter? Is this the lame excuse you come up with?
I know very well what kind of mess you made. If you are misleading others with your theology it cannot be biblical. It's so simple. God is not a God of confusion.
I have no intention of learning dysfunctional theology. The fruit of your theology is not so good. Actually it's rotten. Why would I want to learn something that misleads and confuses people?
We know by our fruit if it's Biblical or not. Your theology is not showing much of fruit rather misleading people into disobedience.
That's exactly what you are doing. How arrogant of you.
It seems that people who claim OSAS are playing Christians.

Written by Merry Menagerie
“Man, you really need to stop judging ok - it doesn't become you!â€Â

Merry wasn’t real impressed with your judging attitude either.

Give me a break! :-?

 

[Quath]

I challenge you though. When your life takes a turn for the worse, (everyone's does to one degree or another, it's all like a roller coaster ride, up and down), and you 'truly' want an answer from God, drop to you knees then and ask Him if He's there. If you Knock, He will answer. Sometimes you don't even have to knock, for He will do the knocking. Even then, you must hear and then let Him in. He really is there, I promise. Sometimes we just have to be READY for Him and perhaps your time is yet to come.

I am always up to be proven wrong. I have disbelief, but it doesn't meanI will ignore proof if it is finally given.

Thanks for caring.

Quath

 

[joyinhim]

AVbanyion, you insulted me big time. the way you talked to me is not much of Christian. you gave me a personal attack.

Is it possible that you may be to thin skinned for forums - :o

Mercy, there was no personal attack there - sorry you took it that way. Please show me where I "attacked" you personally.

If you believe it to be then take it up with the Moderators - I trust their judgment and will respect their decision if need be.

I asked you to review my posts on the subject and it appears you may not have. What I said to you was nothing different than what I've said many times before and nobody responded like you did.

I even had one poster tell me to my face I was lost - no big deal to me.

Later 8-)

By the way:

You talk about my attacks and attitude? See your “sweet, Christian†spirit at work:

All I know is that they are misleading people and made disaster with their theology. Shame on them!
Are you an OSAS supporter? Is this the lame excuse you come up with?
I know very well what kind of mess you made. If you are misleading others with your theology it cannot be biblical. It's so simple. God is not a God of confusion.
I have no intention of learning dysfunctional theology. The fruit of your theology is not so good. Actually it's rotten. Why would I want to learn something that misleads and confuses people?
We know by our fruit if it's Biblical or not. Your theology is not showing much of fruit rather misleading people into disobedience.
That's exactly what you are doing. How arrogant of you.
It seems that people who claim OSAS are playing Christians.

Written by Merry Menagerie
“Man, you really need to stop judging ok - it doesn't become you!â€Â

Merry wasn’t real impressed with your judging attitude either.

Give me a break! :-?

2. After reading your posts why do I get the feeling that I may understand why you and your husband are separated - I bet you blame him don't you. How do I know you are not just being a rebellious and disobedient wife?

Look familiar?

Why do you bring someone else?

How long have you been Christian?

 

[BJGrolle]

Quath, I care also. Thank you for having an open mind.

I was searching for something entirely different, and came across these verses that might be relevant to the topic:

Acts 2:16-18

Act 2:16 Rather, this is what the prophet Joel spoke about:
Act 2:17 'In the last days, God says, I will pour my Spirit on everyone. Your sons and daughters will speak what God has revealed. Your young men will see visions. Your old men will dream dreams.
Act 2:18 In those days I will pour my Spirit on my servants, on both men and women. They will speak what God has revealed.


Reference Joel 2:28-29.

Possibly the Holy Spirit hadn't been poured out on the women at the time of some of Paul's writings. So they truly couldn't be trusted to be speaking with the influence of the Holy Spirit.

 

[Klee shay]

Oh I think that's very relevant indeed BJ. It's so much easier when you don't have to fight agaisnt what Christ has revealed as truth. :D

 

[Solo]

What did Jesus take a more serious positive view upon, ruling over the authority of one, or submitting as God commands?

If God's vessel of honor chooses not to be submissive in the order of things, then how are we to learn and be blessed in this area? If we instead are rebellious in our attitudes, and take a unscriptural viewpoint in our given roles, gifts, and talents; then how are we to be seen as God's children. Why did God set up man ruling over woman in Genesis? Why did he not set up woman over man? Did Paul write unGodly letters with error for this day and age?

If one has the gift of the Spirit to give and serve, should they fight in a rebelliousness against the Word to obtain a higher gift from their fleshly perspective.

Will we see many falling from the true doctrines of the faith and gospel of Jesus Christ in the times just before His return? According to the scriptures we will.

 

[Klee shay]

What did Jesus take a more serious positive view upon, ruling over the authority of one, or submitting as God commands?

Neither. The first and greatest command is that we love God with all our hearts, minds and spirit, the second being akin to the first, that we should love each other as Christ loved us. In other words, putting GOD first and submitting to each other (whether Christian, non-Christian, male or female) we are all ONE in Christ.

He was more serious that people look to HIM always and not the lastest gospel understanding of the day.

If we instead are rebellious in our attitudes, and take a unscriptural viewpoint in our given roles, gifts, and talents; then how are we to be seen as God's children.

I for one (as a Christian and a woman) am tired of having a point of view represented as "rebellious". I am not rebellious to Christ - I am rebellious to those who would represent Christ in a manner not befitting to who he was or represented. I will explain here...

Why did God set up man ruling over woman in Genesis?

You are using the OT to redefine what Christ BECAME in the NT. God set up many things in the OT but it was Christ in the NT which would embody the gospel. Not as a thing to interpret according to our knowledge (as the Pharasiees failed at doing); but to experience through our relationship with Christ.

Christ is the gospel - through him we are not rebellious - male OR female.

If one has the gift of the Spirit to give and serve, should they fight in a rebelliousness against the Word to obtain a higher gift from their fleshly perspective.

Again, you define the use of "rebelious" against the word, when it is Christ who is now become the word. The gift of the Spirit will only obey the truth as BJ so aptly posted; "In those days I will pour my Spirit on my servants, on both men and women. They will speak what God has revealed." Acts 2:18

To what point do you limit Christ who WILL pour his Spirit on both men and women - to SPEAK what God has revealed? To speak ergo to teach.

Will we see many falling from the true doctrines of the faith and gospel of Jesus Christ in the times just before His return?

Is this where your focus is? Why do we always come back to the falling away and keeping people in check with a sense of fear? If your focus is on Christ you do not count the numbers which will fall away or WHO is obeynig the true gospel of Christ - or when your sentiments will be proven correct.

"If I then, your Lord and Master, have washed your feet; ye also ought to wash one another's feet. For I have given you an example, that ye should do as I have done to you." John 13:14-15

Even Christ washed the feet of Judas. Humility is not being right in the face of scripture and calling all others rebellious. Humility is doing as Christ did.

 

[Solo]

What did Jesus take a more serious positive view upon, ruling over the authority of one, or submitting as God commands?

Neither. The first and greatest command is that we love God with all our hearts, minds and spirit, the second being akin to the first, that we should love each other as Christ loved us. In other words, putting GOD first and submitting to each other (whether Christian, non-Christian, male or female) we are all ONE in Christ.

He was more serious that people look to HIM always and not the lastest gospel understanding of the day.

Jesus taught the importance of being a submissive servant as opposed to being a prideful ruler. He taught that the first would be last, and the last would be first, depending on how they built their spiritual house. All of those things that were built by the flesh will perish as wood, hay, and stubble, but those things that were built in the Spirit will be eternal as precious stones.

If we instead are rebellious in our attitudes, and take a unscriptural viewpoint in our given roles, gifts, and talents; then how are we to be seen as God's children.

I for one (as a Christian and a woman) am tired of having a point of view represented as "rebellious". I am not rebellious to Christ - I am rebellious to those who would represent Christ in a manner not befitting to who he was or represented. I will explain here...

Rebelliousness is everything that is done against God's Word. All mankind is drawn to rebelliousness in the flesh, but those who are born again believers have a choice to walk in the flesh or walk in the spirit. When you and I walk in the flesh, we are rebellious for we are exhorted to walk in the spirit so that we do not fulfill the lusts of the flesh.

Why did God set up man ruling over woman in Genesis?

You are using the OT to redefine what Christ BECAME in the NT. God set up many things in the OT but it was Christ in the NT which would embody the gospel. Not as a thing to interpret according to our knowledge (as the Pharasiees failed at doing); but to experience through our relationship with Christ.

Christ is the gospel - through him we are not rebellious - male OR female.

Do men still work by the sweat of their brow to provide for their families and themselves? Do women still have pain in child bearing? Are men and women able to pick and choose what portions of Paul's writings or Jesus' teachings that they prefer to live by, and cast away the rest? The flesh is very able to do that which is against the Word of God, while the spirit is unable to sin. When we walk in the flesh we sin, when we walk in the Spirit we obey God.

If one has the gift of the Spirit to give and serve, should they fight in a rebelliousness against the Word to obtain a higher gift from their fleshly perspective.

Again, you define the use of "rebellious" against the word, when it is Christ who is now become the word. The gift of the Spirit will only obey the truth as BJ so aptly posted; "In those days I will pour my Spirit on my servants, on both men and women. They will speak what God has revealed." Acts 2:18

To what point do you limit Christ who WILL pour his Spirit on both men and women - to SPEAK what God has revealed? To speak ergo to teach.

Once again, when one walks in the flesh one fulfills the lust of the flesh which is sin, however, when one walks in the spirit one is obedient to the Word of God. The Word of God is Jesus Christ, and each of us will be judged by the Word of God. I do not limit Jesus Christ, as I believe that we ought to live according to the full Word of God, and not just the portions that we like.

Will we see many falling from the true doctrines of the faith and gospel of Jesus Christ in the times just before His return?

Is this where your focus is? Why do we always come back to the falling away and keeping people in check with a sense of fear? If your focus is on Christ you do not count the numbers which will fall away or WHO is obeynig the true gospel of Christ - or when your sentiments will be proven correct.

My focus is the Word of God, and teaching the Word of God as intended, standing in the place where the gift of discernment, teaching, and prophesy take me. When the Word says that a falling away will occur, and the son of perdition revealed before the return of Jesus Christ (2 Thessalonians 2), then I look that many will fall away from sound doctrine. This is also foretold in 2 Timothy 4. I have no care to be proven correct. I only care that others do not slip into the lies and deceptions of the wicked enemy that seeks to destroy whom he can.

"If I then, your Lord and Master, have washed your feet; ye also ought to wash one another's feet. For I have given you an example, that ye should do as I have done to you." John 13:14-15

Even Christ washed the feet of Judas. Humility is not being right in the face of scripture and calling all others rebellious. Humility is doing as Christ did.

That is exactly the example of submissiveness that each of us should have in the role that we were born into. Both men and women believers have specific duties to perform as gifted by the Holy Spirit. We have been placed in the body of Jesus Christ with certain roles and responsiblities, and these roles and responsibilities will not contradict the Word of God. If they do, they are done in the flesh and are rebellious towards God.

Thanks for the post.
God bless,
Michael

 

[Klee shay]

Jesus taught the importance of being a submissive servant as opposed to being a prideful ruler. He taught that the first would be last, and the last would be first, depending on how they built their spiritual house. All of those things that were built by the flesh will perish as wood, hay, and stubble, but those things that were built in the Spirit will be eternal as precious stones.

Agreed. :D

Rebelliousness is everything that is done against God's Word. All mankind is drawn to rebelliousness in the flesh, but those who are born again believers have a choice to walk in the flesh or walk in the spirit. When you and I walk in the flesh, we are rebellious for we are exhorted to walk in the spirit so that we do not fulfill the lusts of the flesh.

Agreed again; however how are you or I to know when one is walking in the spirit? Paul walked in the Spirit and yet he was called rebellious by the Jews - some still call him rebellious to deny his teachings' today. Can you see that any person can claim that another is being rebellious when in fact they could be walking in the spirit - doing that which God has asked them to reveal?

Your use of "rebellious" in this discussion, seems to imply that if someone has an opinion on women having God's blessing to teach (revealed of the Spirit perhaps) then they are merely walking in the flesh and being rebellious.

I say again, what room do you give our Lord to move as he said in Acts 2:18, "In those days I will pour my Spirit on my servants, on both men and women. They will speak what God has revealed." Jesus has foretold that it will come to pass...yet you say he is wrong by implying those women who obey the Spirit are being rebellious?

Once again, when one walks in the flesh one fulfills the lust of the flesh which is sin, however, when one walks in the spirit one is obedient to the Word of God. The Word of God is Jesus Christ, and each of us will be judged by the Word of God. I do not limit Jesus Christ, as I believe that we ought to live according to the full Word of God, and not just the portions that we like.

If Jesus reveals something to a woman and the Spirit urges her to teach these things to others (either male and/or female) how is that not living according to the full Word of God? Yet there are scriptures which limit this act from taking place does it not? So who gives the woman permission to speak - man who interprets the scriptures and tells women of their place (yet again), or is it Christ who gives the permission sanctifying her in his blood and bringing forth the full Word of God?

My focus is the Word of God, and teaching the Word of God as intended, standing in the place where the gift of discernment, teaching, and prophesy take me.

Exactly! And because you're a man you have the automatic freedom to do this. A lot of bible scholars would vindicate you of actually walking in the flesh (and being rebellious) because you're male and it's a given you're allowed to teach the full Word of God and have authority in doing so.

A woman on the other hand is not allowed to have a "free" relationship with Christ and the spirit - to teach these things to others because apparently since Eve she has been deceiving men and can't be expected to do anything else. This gives no credence to the power of Jesus to wash the sins away of Eve and build a new creation in today's women.

When the Word says that a falling away will occur, and the son of perdition revealed before the return of Jesus Christ (2 Thessalonians 2), then I look that many will fall away from sound doctrine. This is also foretold in 2 Timothy 4. I have no care to be proven correct. I only care that others do not slip into the lies and deceptions of the wicked enemy that seeks to destroy whom he can.

Then why not point them to Christ friend? Is that not the greater thing to do? Will he lead them astray? The falling away should not be regurgitated in every discussion involving the proper way to follow God and the way not to. It restricts the Spirit of Christ in others - for instead of focussing on Christ as they should; they're too busy worrying if they're going to fall way?

[quote:2c8ac]Klee shay wrote:

"If I then, your Lord and Master, have washed your feet; ye also ought to wash one another's feet. For I have given you an example, that ye should do as I have done to you." John 13:14-15

Even Christ washed the feet of Judas. Humility is not being right in the face of scripture and calling all others rebellious. Humility is doing as Christ did.

That is exactly the example of submissiveness that each of us should have in the role that we were born into. Both men and women believers have specific duties to perform as gifted by the Holy Spirit. We have been placed in the body of Jesus Christ with certain roles and responsiblities, and these roles and responsibilities will not contradict the Word of God. If they do, they are done in the flesh and are rebellious towards God.[/quote:2c8ac]

Now we are getting to the crux of the dilemma.

"If I then, your Lord and Master, have washed your feet; ye also ought to wash one another's feet. For I have given you an example, that ye should do as I have done to you." John 13:14-15

Do you think Christ omits women from this example? How can we wash someone else's feet that we have no authority to? One (Judas) kicked up his heel against Christ, did he not say to his Apostles?

If we were to wash another's feet, would we not be chastised for disobeying God's order of men's authority over women? The ones who wish to wash are called Judas's - the devil - yet was it not the words of Christ Himself, to follow his example? You may say that Christ would not ask a woman to do such as thing, if it disobeyed God's order. Yet even Christ has made preparations for this in Acts 2:18. He expects those who are touched by the Spirit (both male and female) in those days, WILL reveal the things of God to others.

Were not the scriptures written for Christ and not for men/women to interpret for him?

Are you sure that it is not YOU being rebellious in the flesh?

And here lies the dilemma of the Pharisees. Once we engage in this tit-for-tat of who is being rebellious (on the outside) and who is obeying the full Word of God, we start to enter into judgement - which we were also warned against. Judge not lest ye be judged.

Perhaps I need to clarify my stance a little better at this stage. I am not about de-cloaking men of the order given to them by God from the very beginning. I want to obey that order - I want to be submissive according to the Will of God. However (and here lies the dilemma for me and many others) when we are called in the Spirit to reveal what has been poured out upon us; we have a heirachy to contend with that says we have no authority to teach, we have no credibility - and therefore, goodbye Spirit which has been poured out upon us.

Men do not have the right to deny Christ his pouring out of the Spirit...and maybe that is why women are getting more and more vocal about this. Not out of rebelliousness in the flesh (I want the natural order too remember) but out of a pouring out of the Spirit which says - "men if you accept the role of authority I have given you, then love your wives as you would love yourselves - and give them permission to use MY voice."

Notice how the OP and her husband are not in conflict over whether she is entitled to teach what the Spirit has revealed to her? Yet instead of noticing an example of unity; we imply that her partner is weak and letting her deceive him.

How much more effective would the Holy Spirit be in this world if we weren't so busy denying it to believers - male or female, Catholic or Protestant. It is the Lord's Spirit - He died for it to be poured upon mankind; so let him use it as HE decides.

I found this wonderful example of what Jesus means to everyone who believes and who wants to believe...

"O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not." Matthew 23:37

Maybe it's my maternal instinct which made me relate? :wink:

 

[Solo]

Jesus taught the importance of being a submissive servant as opposed to being a prideful ruler. He taught that the first would be last, and the last would be first, depending on how they built their spiritual house. All of those things that were built by the flesh will perish as wood, hay, and stubble, but those things that were built in the Spirit will be eternal as precious stones.

Agreed. :D

Great! We are on the same page so far. :D

Rebelliousness is everything that is done against God's Word. All mankind is drawn to rebelliousness in the flesh, but those who are born again believers have a choice to walk in the flesh or walk in the spirit. When you and I walk in the flesh, we are rebellious for we are exhorted to walk in the spirit so that we do not fulfill the lusts of the flesh.

Agreed again; however how are you or I to know when one is walking in the spirit? Paul walked in the Spirit and yet he was called rebellious by the Jews - some still call him rebellious to deny his teachings' today. Can you see that any person can claim that another is being rebellious when in fact they could be walking in the spirit - doing that which God has asked them to reveal?

Great! The second point that we are in agreement on. Unity will prevail. :D

We are walking in the Spirit and can be known to be walking in the Spirit when the fruits of the Spirit are evident as illustrated in Galatians 5.

22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, 23 Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law. 24 And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts. 25 If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit. 26 Let us not be desirous of vain glory, provoking one another, envying one another. Galatians 5:22-26

The fruits of the flesh are just as telling as mentioned in the same chapter of Galatians.

17 For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would. 18 But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law. 19 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness, 20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies, 21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God. Galatians 5:17-21

Your use of "rebellious" in this discussion, seems to imply that if someone has an opinion on women having God's blessing to teach (revealed of the Spirit perhaps) then they are merely walking in the flesh and being rebellious.

What I said was that "Rebelliousness is everything that is done against God's Word". If someone has an opinion of having God's blessing to teach, maybe right or wrong depending on the Word of God.

If God's Word says that women are not to usurp the authority of men, and areas in the scripture are ironclad that women teach men, and can pastor men without usurping their authority, then there is no rebellion; however, if one declares that they are going to teach men and pastor them because Paul was only teaching to a select group of people in a culture unlike what we have today, and that teaching and pastoring men is not usurping the authority of men, then I would question their intentions based on my reading of the Word, and the generations of Christianity behind me.

I say again, what room do you give our Lord to move as he said in Acts 2:18, "In those days I will pour my Spirit on my servants, on both men and women. They will speak what God has revealed." Jesus has foretold that it will come to pass...yet you say he is wrong by implying those women who obey the Spirit are being rebellious?

We agree again that God has and will pour out his Spirit upon men and women of this age, and that we will speak what God has revealed, but these same men and women will not go against the Word of God when they speak of those things that the Spirit of God reveals. When one speaks in tongues that contradicts the Word of God, what spirit is revealing this action? When one prophesies a prophecy that does not come true or is not the revealed Word of God being proclaimed, what spirit is revealing this action? When one gives to an organization that is aborting babies, what spirit is revealing this action?

Once again, when one walks in the flesh one fulfills the lust of the flesh which is sin, however, when one walks in the spirit one is obedient to the Word of God. The Word of God is Jesus Christ, and each of us will be judged by the Word of God. I do not limit Jesus Christ, as I believe that we ought to live according to the full Word of God, and not just the portions that we like.

If Jesus reveals something to a woman and the Spirit urges her to teach these things to others (either male and/or female) how is that not living according to the full Word of God? Yet there are scriptures which limit this act from taking place does it not? So who gives the woman permission to speak - man who interprets the scriptures and tells women of their place (yet again), or is it Christ who gives the permission sanctifying her in his blood and bringing forth the full Word of God?

Jesus will never contradict the Word of God. If you get an urge to do something and it disagrees with the Word of God, then you better pray about it to God, meditate upon the Word of God, and submit to the authority over you in seeking Godly counsel. If I get an urge to go preach the gospel to a group, I am not free to do so without the authority over me allowing me to do so. I was asked to teach a Sunday School class by the Pastor of a Church that does not believe in salvation without water baptism, and they do not believe in eternal security. I did not have the freedom to teach this adult class because it was laid on my heart that divisions would occur if I did. I did not have the guidance from the pastor to teach those beliefs, as he couldn't back them according to his statement of faith of the denomination. The fruits of the Spirit are evidence in all cases of what is being done, whether in the Spirit or in the flesh.

My focus is the Word of God, and teaching the Word of God as intended, standing in the place where the gift of discernment, teaching, and prophesy take me.

Exactly! And because you're a man you have the automatic freedom to do this. A lot of bible scholars would vindicate you of actually walking in the flesh (and being rebellious) because you're male and it's a given you're allowed to teach the full Word of God and have authority in doing so.

A woman on the other hand is not allowed to have a "free" relationship with Christ and the spirit - to teach these things to others because apparently since Eve she has been deceiving men and can't be expected to do anything else. This gives no credence to the power of Jesus to wash the sins away of Eve and build a new creation in today's women.

Men are under the headship of Jesus Christ, and do not have automatic freedom to operate within their gifts until the Holy Spirit acts. Women also have spiritual gifts given then by the Holy Spirit, and discernment, prophecy, and teaching can also be gifts given to women. Both men and women must operate these gifts in accordance with the Holy Spirit. Walking in the flesh and attempting to perform these gifts will be fruitless.

God has not removed the pain of childbearing from women, but he has given us medical facilities where birth of children is much better than the past. Men have not been relieved from having to work hard by the sweat of his brow to earn a living for his family. The roles of men and women haven't changed because we are now in another century than those that wrote the New Testament. What changes did God make for his Church, and where did he claim that these changes are made?

When the Word says that a falling away will occur, and the son of perdition revealed before the return of Jesus Christ (2 Thessalonians 2), then I look that many will fall away from sound doctrine. This is also foretold in 2 Timothy 4. I have no care to be proven correct. I only care that others do not slip into the lies and deceptions of the wicked enemy that seeks to destroy whom he can.

Then why not point them to Christ friend? Is that not the greater thing to do? Will he lead them astray? The falling away should not be regurgitated in every discussion involving the proper way to follow God and the way not to. It restricts the Spirit of Christ in others - for instead of focussing on Christ as they should; they're too busy worrying if they're going to fall way?

The Bible says that the apostacy will happen, and it is happening more and more as time goes on. It is not that believers are not pointing individuals to Christ, it is because the Bible has been diluted in authority by the world, and doubt of God and the Word are being practiced by many today. The Bible says that pleasure is more important to some than God is. When has there been so much pleasure than in todays world?

The only thing that restricts the Spirit of Christ is unbelief, and an unholy understanding of the Word of God.

[quote="Klee shay":002a6]

"If I then, your Lord and Master, have washed your feet; ye also ought to wash one another's feet. For I have given you an example, that ye should do as I have done to you." John 13:14-15

Even Christ washed the feet of Judas. Humility is not being right in the face of scripture and calling all others rebellious. Humility is doing as Christ did.

That is exactly the example of submissiveness that each of us should have in the role that we were born into. Both men and women believers have specific duties to perform as gifted by the Holy Spirit. We have been placed in the body of Jesus Christ with certain roles and responsiblities, and these roles and responsibilities will not contradict the Word of God. If they do, they are done in the flesh and are rebellious towards God.

Now we are getting to the crux of the dilemma.

"If I then, your Lord and Master, have washed your feet; ye also ought to wash one another's feet. For I have given you an example, that ye should do as I have done to you." John 13:14-15

Do you think Christ omits women from this example? How can we wash someone else's feet that we have no authority to? One (Judas) kicked up his heel against Christ, did he not say to his Apostles?

If we were to wash another's feet, would we not be chastised for disobeying God's order of men's authority over women? The ones who wish to wash are called Judas's - the devil - yet was it not the words of Christ Himself, to follow his example? You may say that Christ would not ask a woman to do such as thing, if it disobeyed God's order. Yet even Christ has made preparations for this in Acts 2:18. He expects those who are touched by the Spirit (both male and female) in those days, WILL reveal the things of God to others.
[/quote:002a6]

Submission is a special gift that men have more of a problem with than women, and women can be great teachers to men on what true submissiveness is. Unfortunately, submission has taken on a worldly definition to more resemble slavery than God submission. It is a gem that both men and women can build on their foundation of faith in Jesus that will remain through the fire of any and all tribulations. Where does washing feet usurp the authority of men? Should men usurp the authority of Jesus as head of the Church? Should children usurp the authority of their parents? What portion of the believer will go against the Word of God? The Flesh. What portion will obey the Word of God? The born of God spirit within each believer.

Were not the scriptures written for Christ and not for men/women to interpret for him?

The Word of God, the scriptures are interpreted by the Holy Spirit that resides within each believer. The interpretation will not contradict the Word of God in any way, case, or shape.

Are you sure that it is not YOU being rebellious in the flesh?

What have I said that contradicts the Word of God?

And here lies the dilemma of the Pharisees. Once we engage in this tit-for-tat of who is being rebellious (on the outside) and who is obeying the full Word of God, we start to enter into judgement - which we were also warned against. Judge not lest ye be judged.

First of all, judgement is such a misunderstood word used by some Christians and most all non-Christians. Judgement has consequences determined by one who judges. I do not cast down sentences on anyone, nor are there consequences enacted because I say so. God is the judge of all. Now I am responsible for discerning error, and teaching truth, and rebuking deceptions, and using the Word of God for reproof and edification. A study on the verse that you cite, "judge not lest ye be judged" is a very interesting study when the entire teaching of the Word of God is included. I judge no man/woman. I only proclaim the Word of God.

Perhaps I need to clarify my stance a little better at this stage. I am not about de-cloaking men of the order given to them by God from the very beginning. I want to obey that order - I want to be submissive according to the Will of God. However (and here lies the dilemma for me and many others) when we are called in the Spirit to reveal what has been poured out upon us; we have a heirachy to contend with that says we have no authority to teach, we have no credibility - and therefore, goodbye Spirit which has been poured out upon us.

Many spirits prey on the emotions of individuals, and many individuals fall prey to these spirits. I would suggest that all spirits be tested to validate whether they be from God or not as the scripture teaches, and I would validate all called actions against the Word of God. If the Spirit reveals to you that you are to take a church and accept pastorship over men and women of the area, then prayer, meditation on the Word of God, and verification that there is no contradiction of the Word. Keep in mind that satan tempted Jesus with the Word, but Jesus had full knowledge of the Word and manifested satan's contradictions immediately. The Spirit of God will lead all believers into the truth, and He will not cause fruits of the flesh to manifest by his doings, he will manifest the fruits of the Spirit.

Men do not have the right to deny Christ his pouring out of the Spirit...and maybe that is why women are getting more and more vocal about this. Not out of rebelliousness in the flesh (I want the natural order too remember) but out of a pouring out of the Spirit which says - "men if you accept the role of authority I have given you, then love your wives as you would love yourselves - and give them permission to use MY voice."

If that is God's will then the Spirit would have conveyed that fact in the Word of God for all generations to obey. Why would God not have allowed this to be fact and truth earlier than this age? Could this age be the age that is falling away from sound doctrine, and instead obeying that which tickles their ears? Perhaps we are following doctrines of devils instead of doctrines of God? How would we know? By transforming our minds with the Word of God, and not by conforming to this world.

Notice how the OP and her husband are not in conflict over whether she is entitled to teach what the Spirit has revealed to her? Yet instead of noticing an example of unity; we imply that her partner is weak and letting her deceive him.

I know neither person, and I have not implied any of your implications. What I have said is that anything that is against the Word of God, either straight up or by twisting it to say what your flesh desires, is wrong, and disobedient to God's Word.

How much more effective would the Holy Spirit be in this world if we weren't so busy denying it to believers - male or female, Catholic or Protestant. It is the Lord's Spirit - He died for it to be poured upon mankind; so let him use it as HE decides.

You and I will not have a problem with God pouring his Spirit out on the whole of believers, and we both would have a problem with the enemy counterfeiting any semblance of truth to destroy others, so I suspect that if the Spirit is being poured out, then He will not be poured out denying the Word of God.

I found this wonderful example of what Jesus means to everyone who believes and who wants to believe...

"O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not." Matthew 23:37

Maybe it's my maternal instinct which made me relate? :wink:

This verse of scripture is sad to me in that Jesus was not recognized by his own people, but the happy note is that the New Covenant was given to us Gentiles because of it. God's chosen and forgiven will be together in the Kingdom of God one day, and the greatest thing about it all is that we will be in a place where sin is no more, and there will be no more tears, pain, sorrow, suffering, or death. Praise God!

 

[Klee shay]

Great! We are on the same page so far.

I hope so. :-? No, of course we are. :D I submit! :wink: :wink:

I agreed with a lot of what you wrote so I won't requote it again...only the parts I wish to address now.

We agree again that God has and will pour out his Spirit upon men and women of this age, and that we will speak what God has revealed, but these same men and women will not go against the Word of God when they speak of those things that the Spirit of God reveals.

Agreed, but we do not know what the Spirit will reveal as our world changes. Just like the Gentiles were accepted into the same fold (according to God's will) as the Jews, is it not possible for God to share the authority, if men are failing in their role of leadership over women?

Maybe it will never come to that? Maybe the Lord will always see there is enough male authority around that is deserving of the responsibility? It would be nice to think however; that men who love their wives could trust them a little more when it comes to teaching.

Men are under the headship of Jesus Christ, and do not have automatic freedom to operate within their gifts until the Holy Spirit acts. Women also have spiritual gifts given then by the Holy Spirit, and discernment, prophecy, and teaching can also be gifts given to women. Both men and women must operate these gifts in accordance with the Holy Spirit. Walking in the flesh and attempting to perform these gifts will be fruitless.

Agreed - in a perfect world this might happen one day, LOL. :wink:

I think the reason why many women are stepping up to the plate is that they feel abandoned by the male focus of attention; in spiritual leadership. It seems to be on the woman's place and yet does not concentrate so intensely on the man's responsibility. Hence you get a lot of guys wondering why their wives aren't being submissive when all they want is to be heard - to have a voice - to be considered important enough to have a say.

This is something the enemy has exploited and it is now turning on the spiritual leadership all over the world. Wouldn't the women love to be submissive if only the men made them feel loved as Christ said? You have a double-edged sword here which only comes from division. The remedy may not simply come from telling women the bible has a place for them; or that guys ought to love their wives more. Maybe as our world changes; we have to get more into being a unified team.

Women can't go back to being uneducated or completely dependent on the men in their lives any more. The divorce and welfare statistics simply don't reflect that possibility. As our world changes we must still keep our focus on Christ - but instead of the men thinking they cannot be challenged any more by their uneducated and completely dependent wives; perhaps they can learn to use our more refined gifts to actually support them in their role of leadership.

Why would a woman want the responsibility of leadership, if her husband listened to her and translated that into his broader decisions?

Where does washing feet usurp the authority of men? Should men usurp the authority of Jesus as head of the Church? Should children usurp the authority of their parents? What portion of the believer will go against the Word of God? The Flesh. What portion will obey the Word of God? The born of God spirit within each believer.

Yes, but it is happening. You have men usurping the authority of Jesus; you have children usurping the authority of parents...and all because there is division in every structure of our society. One simply cannot put the Genie back into the bottle so to speak. One has to deal with it. How does one deal with it? As you said, obeying the Word of God. But can we simply tell fathers and husbands to stay in a marriage they want to leave? Can we simply keep children with their abusive and unloving parents?

What is the answer here - Christ is; and sometimes if you get a woman speaking out of place or a child standing up against their parents - maybe there is a reason? Maybe because the people put in charge are following the enemy's example instead of God's.

What then? Well you naturally let God lead you. You let God become the father of the fostered child; you allow Christ to be the husband of the destitute wife - and in these cases; he will give them voices they never knew they had before. Why? Because there has to be a voice of reason amongst the confusion and that voice, God will give to the faithful regardless of their disposition to gender, age or religous standing.

What have I said that contradicts the Word of God?

Sorry that I made you feel like it was a genuine statement. It was merely a rhetorical question...leading into judge not lest ye be judged - my following points.

If that is God's will then the Spirit would have conveyed that fact in the Word of God for all generations to obey. Why would God not have allowed this to be fact and truth earlier than this age?

You mean like the teachings of the Lord's Grace before he was sacrificed? How many years did that happen after the sacrifice?

Wasn't Paul contradicting the law of the Jews with his teachings of Grace; but in doing so God then manifested the Gentiles into the fold? It is now accepted as part of scripture because Paul witnessed and God testified by pouring out the Spirit upon the Gentiles.

There are many absolutes in the bible but it all rests on God's shoulders and his timing. I cannot say what is possible in this age but I trust that God knows and he will reveal it in his good time.

I know neither person, and I have not implied any of your implications. What I have said is that anything that is against the Word of God, either straight up or by twisting it to say what your flesh desires, is wrong, and disobedient to God's Word.

I'm sorry if I made you feel like this was directed at you. Please note how I used the word "we"; denoting a general statement and not "you".

If you read the entirity of this thread you will understand my comparision of following the scripture of authority, at the risk of division in a couple - and following the full word of God to create unity in a couple. The OP and her husband are not in conflict over her desire to teach and pursue the matter because she has his blessing.

I think it's beautiful he trusts her with the Spirit like that. :D

God's chosen and forgiven will be together in the Kingdom of God one day, and the greatest thing about it all is that we will be in a place where sin is no more, and there will be no more tears, pain, sorrow, suffering, or death. Praise God!

Yes, Amen. :D

 

[Solo]

One more point of clarification for your understanding of my post, and of my understanding of scripture. The scriptures of the New Testament are for the age of the Church, from Jesus until his return. The world may change but God will be the same yesterday, today, and tomorrow. The only thing that he has changed is the covenants that he has made with mankind. The age prior to the Law, the age of the Law, and the age of Grace, are the three main covenants that he has made with mankind. Paul was the apostle of the age of grace to the gentiles preaching the truth of God for the entire age of the church until the return of Jesus Christ.

Also, I do not see the position of the woman believer in such a negative light as some see themselves or others. I believe that the women believers are held in as high of an esteem as the church is held by Jesus Christ. I believe that the disobedience of men and women bring negative consequences, and those consequences can be lifelong, however, believers have the power of Jesus Christ to overcome, and we can do all things through Christ who strengthens us.

I do not believe that because the Word of God says that women should not usurp the authority of men, that they have less of a position than the man. I believe it is far more important to raise a Godly family than it is to preach to a group of individuals in a church building. I also believe that the position of a Godly mother praying unceasingly for her husband and children is far more important than having her preach to a group of individuals in a church building. I also see the position of a Godly wife supporting her husband in prayer and encouragement more important than having her preach to a group of individuals in a church building. A woman believer has much on her plate with the responsibilities that God has given her, to ignore those things in order to do something that takes time away from those responsibilities in order to do what God told men to do. If men are not doing the job in a specific Church, then God has removed their candlestick from view, and is teaching where unbelief is not prevalent.
Thanks for you post and may God bless you and yours,
Michael

Maybe that was a little more than one point, but when I get going, I get on a role. :D

 

[BJGrolle]

If God's Word says that women are not to usurp the authority of men, and areas in the scripture are ironclad that women teach men, and can pastor men without usurping their authority, then there is no rebellion; however, if one declares that they are going to teach men and pastor them because Paul was only teaching to a select group of people in a culture unlike what we have today, and that teaching and pastoring men is not usurping the authority of men, then I would question their intentions based on my reading of the Word, and the generations of Christianity behind me.

I'm sorry to hear that it's my intentions that you're questioning. You seem to somehow feel like I'm trying to "Lord" it over men. That is not my intention at all.

The fact is that the Holy Spirit poured out on me this immovable desire to teach the Word of God - and learn from others. You question whether or not this was genuine, but that is not your place. You are judging me falsely and without even knowing me. You first called me a "silly woman" who was being led astray. Does that embody what you understand to be true Christian behavior? You are assuming that I'm walking in the flesh, not the spirit. You have no right to assume anything like that about anybody.

Being in the LCMS, I've only heard male pastors preach and teach. I've enjoyed being under the instruction of many men, both pastoral care and Bible study classes. But there have been some male pastors who have made me wonder how they ever came to such a calling, saying vile, dispicalble, hateful things from the pulpit. I've read of many such pastors in Christian forums. Does the Holy Spirit pour out the desire to preach hateful things, to put people down, to make them feel like so much dog doo-doo under a pastor's foot? Our pastor left to take the place of a pastor who was doing such things to his congregation - this pastor had to be removed because of the damage he was doing.

Yet, to hear your interpretation of God's Word, man has authority over women, therefore...a man's authority in the church is not to be questioned, ever.

(I'm sure there are probably women pastors who preach dispicable things as well.)

Jesus will never contradict the Word of God. If you get an urge to do something and it disagrees with the Word of God, then you better pray about it to God, meditate upon the Word of God, and submit to the authority over you in seeking Godly counsel. If I get an urge to go preach the gospel to a group, I am not free to do so without the authority over me allowing me to do so. I was asked to teach a Sunday School class by the Pastor of a Church that does not believe in salvation without water baptism, and they do not believe in eternal security. I did not have the freedom to teach this adult class because it was laid on my heart that divisions would occur if I did. I did not have the guidance from the pastor to teach those beliefs, as he couldn't back them according to his statement of faith of the denomination. The fruits of the Spirit are evidence in all cases of what is being done, whether in the Spirit or in the flesh.

You did the right thing by not teaching the class, IMO. If your beliefs conflicted with the beliefs of the Pastor, there would have been division. In that case, the Holy Spirit gave you the guidance that you needed to refuse the offer.

So, I don't understand. I must ask this, though I know it's not going to sit well. Are you against me teaching a Bible study class because I am a woman and you interpret that as being against God's Word? Or are you against me teaching a Bible study class because you feel you were denied an opportunity to do the same? Can you not believe that the Holy Spirit might guide a man NOT to teach, while the Holy Spirit might guide a woman TO teach?

It's not a matter of absolutes! In your shoes, I also would not have accepted - though I probably wouldn't have been asked, being a woman. :

Men are under the headship of Jesus Christ, and do not have automatic freedom to operate within their gifts until the Holy Spirit acts. Women also have spiritual gifts given then by the Holy Spirit, and discernment, prophecy, and teaching can also be gifts given to women. Both men and women must operate these gifts in accordance with the Holy Spirit. Walking in the flesh and attempting to perform these gifts will be fruitless.

Again, you are assuming that I'm walking in the flesh instead of in the spirit. Is that because my mannerism is not what you would expect? I've always been blunt, telling it like it is. I don't tip-toe around the issues. I don't feel inferior to a man because I'm a woman and my sex was created second.

Perhaps I need to clarify my stance a little better at this stage. I am not about de-cloaking men of the order given to them by God from the very beginning. I want to obey that order - I want to be submissive according to the Will of God. However (and here lies the dilemma for me and many others) when we are called in the Spirit to reveal what has been poured out upon us; we have a heirachy to contend with that says we have no authority to teach, we have no credibility - and therefore, goodbye Spirit which has been poured out upon us.

Well-put! Why would the Holy Spirit ever be poured out upon women, if we are to continue to be restrained in the use of God's gifts?

Notice how the OP and her husband are not in conflict over whether she is entitled to teach what the Spirit has revealed to her? Yet instead of noticing an example of unity; we imply that her partner is weak and letting her deceive him.

True. And it is offensive to me that anyone would consider my husband weak. He most certainly is not.

How much more effective would the Holy Spirit be in this world if we weren't so busy denying it to believers - male or female, Catholic or Protestant. It is the Lord's Spirit - He died for it to be poured upon mankind; so let him use it as HE decides.

Yes! I am accused here of denying the Word of God. While others choose to look at one or two passages to support their position that would deny me the right to teach. They refuse to address the passages that affirm my right to teach. They're afraid of crawling outside of the comfort zone they've created for themselves.

An interesting side note: Yesterday, our church bulletin listed the names of all the people who volunteered to be on the call committee to get a new pastor. There are 15 people on the call committee. Only 4 of them are men. 11 are women.

What does that tell you? Overall, it tells me that the men in my church are giving more authority to the women to decide who our next pastor will be. Of the names of the 4 men, none are elders of the church! Isn't that a kick in the pants? NONE of the elders wanted to exercise any authority in choosing a new pastor? Solo, does that sound right to you? I don't know if you go to church, but I would guess that you wouldn't let this sort of thing take place in whatever church you attended, if you could help it.

Forget about teaching and preaching for just a minute.

My husband had attended the church we were married in for about 15 years, before we moved. The last 2 years we attended, my husband was the financial secretary. I still remember the day when someone came up to him and asked him if he would step forward for the position. Note: they asked HIM, and they didn't ask me. I doubt they even considered it - because I'm a woman. This church had an ultra-conservative pastor. I liked him, but women weren't permitted to serve in any capacity. (All the Sunday school teachers were men, no women at all even teaching the children.)

My husband served out his 2 years as financial secretary. He didn't like it very much. But he'd made the committment, and he saw it through. At the end of the 2 years, they asked him to serve for another 2 years. He refused - we knew that we were going to be moving later that year and we wouldn't be able to attend church there anymore.

The irony of this whole situation was this: My husband is a good financial manager, meaning he is thrifty by nature and has taught me to be the same. But, he is an embedded software engineer by profession, not a professional financial manager.

I, however, have an accounting background. I worked in the profession for 4 years and had some accounting classes in college. I take an active interest in financial matters. I manage our finances at home - I do our taxes - I account for every penny using financial software - we make investment decisions together - I keep the books for my eBay business - and I enjoy doing these things. And he trusts me to do them well.

I was certainly more qualified to be the financial secretary of that church - but I wasn't even asked because I'm a woman. So, someone who wasn't as interested or qualified did the job for 2 years because he was a man - that was his qualification for the job, according to the church. That was the first time he'd ever been asked to serve in any capacity, and he felt sort of obligated to try after attending all those years.

Please don't misunderstand me. I didn't want the job - but I sort of got it anyway, except for doing the monthly reports and attending the monthly meetings. My husband wanted me to help him with the weekly duties of the job, so I did, even after our daughter was born.

Does it make sense for any church to put men in positions of authority if they're not qualified and/or don't want the positions? Does it make sense for any church to deny women positions of authority if they are qualified and do want the postitions?

What does God want in these matters? He gives us our gifts, right? When a job needs to be done, if it is His will that a man do the job, then why isn't a gifted man always available?

 

[BJGrolle]

And this is a perfect example of why biblical literalism is dangerous to society. People would rather preserve 1st century, patriarchial, repressive and nearly misoginistic social policies than actually go againt the so called "word of God".

When believers start saying that a woman teaching and instructing, leading or being be an authority figures is against "God's will", I would say there's either something wrong with how that believer is interpreting scripture or there is something wrong with scripture itself.

I'm sorry, but equality and human dignity trump the "word of God" anyday.

I believe that the fault lies with human interpretation of Scripture. As I alluded to in my letter to the Rev. Bergen, one must look at the whole theme throughout the Bible to even have a hope of understanding God's intent in His Word to us.

P.S. I love the faster posting times! :multi:

 

[kwag_myers]

I believe that the fault lies with human interpretation of Scripture. As I alluded to in my letter to the Rev. Bergen, one must look at the whole theme throughout the Bible to even have a hope of understanding God's intent in His Word to us.

Yesterday's message included a unique translation of 1 Corinthians 14:34. Not sure what version exactly, but supposedly literal Greek (I'll get back to you on this. My source is out of contact for a few days). Anyway, I thought I'd post this for you Greek Scholars. Also, this is from memory, but the point is, where do you place the comma? Before "not" or after "not" (since the original Greek did not have punctuation).

"Let your women be silent, not for it hath been permitted to them to speak..."

or

"Let your women be silent not, for it hath been permitted to them to speak..."

I apologize for not including the source, and I haven't been able to find anything to support it via Google. But I trust the person who gave the sermon (he's been faced with this issue for many years because his wife is a highly gifted teacher of the Word).

 

[BJGrolle]

What then? Well you naturally let God lead you. You let God become the father of the fostered child; you allow Christ to be the husband of the destitute wife - and in these cases; he will give them voices they never knew they had before. Why? Because there has to be a voice of reason amongst the confusion and that voice, God will give to the faithful regardless of their disposition to gender, age or religous standing.

I was never a leader. I've always considered myself a follower. I believe this is because of the abuse I suffered and witnessed at the hands of my mother and maternal grandparents. On the rare occasions I was allowed visitation with my paternal grandparents, well, I felt more comfortable with them. Even though my grandfather was always stinking drunk, I knew I was loved unconditionally, just by virtue of my existence. Isn't that sweet and pathetic at the same time? Truly it is. But, I have little regret there, only the regret that I let my mother separate me from them for so long.

I suffered from low to non-existent self-esteem for many many years. I desired nothing more than to fade into the woodwork, exist if you will. You will find that hard to believe, from what you see of me here in this forum.

But, things happen. Good things and bad things. We are often thrust into roles that we couldn't imagine for ourselves because of necessity. This too, is God's will. Look at Moses. Look at Jeremiah. They objected, but they obeyed just the same.

When I was first moved to teach Bible study class, I couldn't understand - why me? It didn't seem to be in my nature to deal with people face to face like that. I'd already been doing the online Bible study through my blog for about 6 weeks. I'm comfortable online, because it's not face-to-face.

So, I put it off. But God wouldn't let me alone about it, you might say. The Holy Spirit kept pushing me to do it - the feeling grew stronger. So, without knowing what would come of it or how I would proceed, I gave in to His will.

Do you know that they didn't know who the ruler of this world was? They learned the truth during our first Bible study class together. These people by virtue of their lifelong attendance in church and the fact that they are 60 to 80 years of age, should know more than me - "only" 42 and only having attended church (with lukewarm enthusiasm) for about 14 years now. They've been in the same church for most of their churchgoing lives. They've been through multiple pastors - so they've been exposed to multiple preaching and teaching styles, maybe varying interpretations of doctrine, who knows? But they are lost on basic truths.

Wasn't Paul contradicting the law of the Jews with his teachings of Grace; but in doing so God then manifested the Gentiles into the fold? It is now accepted as part of scripture because Paul witnessed and God testified by pouring out the Spirit upon the Gentiles.

Do all Jews accept it? We might guess not.

If you read the entirity of this thread you will understand my comparision of following the scripture of authority, at the risk of division in a couple - and following the full word of God to create unity in a couple. The OP and her husband are not in conflict over her desire to teach and pursue the matter because she has his blessing.

I think it's beautiful he trusts her with the Spirit like that.

Thank you.

You truly speak with divine inspiration from the Holy Spirit. When I read your posts, I can feel God's influence very strongly.

The scriptures of the New Testament are for the age of the Church, from Jesus until his return. The world may change but God will be the same yesterday, today, and tomorrow. The only thing that he has changed is the covenants that he has made with mankind. The age prior to the Law, the age of the Law, and the age of Grace, are the three main covenants that he has made with mankind. Paul was the apostle of the age of grace to the gentiles preaching the truth of God for the entire age of the church until the return of Jesus Christ.

Might I say that I feel sorry for the people whom you did not have the opportunity to teach. You do have much wisdom in you that is of divine inspiration.

I believe it is far more important to raise a Godly family than it is to preach to a group of individuals in a church building.

So do I. I am raising a Godly family.

I also believe that the position of a Godly mother praying unceasingly for her husband and children is far more important than having her preach to a group of individuals in a church building.

So do I. I pray for my husband and childen. My husband and I are both teaching our children to pray to God, one of the most important life skills one can have.

I also see the position of a Godly wife supporting her husband in prayer and encouragement more important than having her preach to a group of individuals in a church building.

So do I. I support my husband in prayer and encouragement.

A woman believer has much on her plate with the responsibilities that God has given her, to ignore those things in order to do something that takes time away from those responsibilities in order to do what God told men to do.

Why do you assume that I'm ignoring my duties to my husband and children? Am I supposed to spend the day unceasingly on bended knee to the exclusion of all else to prove my devotion to God and my family?

I have been a stay-at-home wife ever since my husband and I were married. Let me tell you something: it doesn't take all day to clean a house. It doesn't take all day to cook a meal. When my children were small and still at home all day, my time and attention were not my own, but devoted to them. I don't know where you're getting some of your ideas, but if a woman says it does take all day to clean a house and cook a meal, she's either super-inefficent to a degree that I can't even imagine, or is spinning you a yarn. I cook meals from scratch, too.

Now, the exception would be AVBunyan's wife, who is homeschooling 10 kids.

But an average small family with 2 kids - no. And believe me, when my son was smaller, he took up more time than most, because of his autism.

So, when I'm not busy cooking and cleaning, if I spend the rest of the day on bended knee, praying unceasingly for my husband and children, I will have a problem. When my family comes home, they'll have to lift me up off the floor because I won't be able to feel my knees anymore or straighten out my legs. Then my husband will have to serve me by giving me a peppermint foot rub each day. (Oops, I forgot, he does that anyway, right after I've done his feet. :-D )

If men are not doing the job in a specific Church, then God has removed their candlestick from view, and is teaching where unbelief is not prevalent.

Do you mean that God has left our church? I have seen and heard much that digusts me, because it is certainly not the words and behaviors of people who have God first and foremost in their hearts: selfishness, greed, self-pity. Unfortunately, that encompasses the majority of our congregation, and could be said of many others.

The core Bible study class is made up of people who represent the minority, people who truly want to study God's Word, who do not have selfishness, greed, and self-pity as their prevalent attitudes. Nobody is perfect, but we try to rise above the temptations and feel guilt when we fall short, rather than blaming someone else in the congregation for our attitudes.

One hour a week on Sunday. Depending on the complexity of the topic, I spend an hour to a few hours during the week preparing for the lesson. This week I will have to spend zero time in preparation, because we're not finished with the last lesson yet.

If I'm pressed for time, I could order pre-printed materials using church funds that have been budgeted for education. Then there would be no prep work for me at all. But I prefer not to go that route.

Considering that I have 8 hours each day, 5 days a week, to spend as I wish, I have plenty of time to take care of the needs of my family and prepare a lesson for Sunday Bible study class. No aspect of my life is wanting or being neglected. My husband and family have no complaints against me. Why do you feel that you have the right to complain about a neglect that is entirely of your own imagination?

 

[BJGrolle]

Yesterday's message included a unique translation of 1 Corinthians 14:34. Not sure what version exactly, but supposedly literal Greek (I'll get back to you on this. My source is out of contact for a few days). Anyway, I thought I'd post this for you Greek Scholars. Also, this is from memory, but the point is, where do you place the comma? Before "not" or after "not" (since the original Greek did not have punctuation).

"Let your women be silent, not for it hath been permitted to them to speak..."

or

"Let your women be silent not, for it hath been permitted to them to speak..."

I apologize for not including the source, and I haven't been able to find anything to support it via Google. But I trust the person who gave the sermon (he's been faced with this issue for many years because his wife is a highly gifted teacher of the Word).

I just did a search and found this:

http://www.greekbible.com/

I can't copy the passage over, because it won't copy as it is shown on the page.

But if you input the book, chapter, and verse, you'll get the Greek text.

 

[guibox]

The ultimate question isn't 'Why are women in the pulpit?"

The question should be, "What the heck are they doing out of the KITCHEN??" :-D

* ducks and runs as all the females on the forum chuck rotten tomatoes...*