The Root of It

[Solo]

My dear Solo. It is YOUR position that ignores important portions. If you take away Revelation 14, 20 and Luke 16, all highly symbolic and metaphorical passages, your position is left with nothing. And yet verse after verse, chapter after chapter from Genesis to Revelation CLEARLY verify and support the complete annihilation of God's enemies from this earth, the eradication of sin and the resurrection of the dead and not the immortality of the soul.

Who is ignoring the whole of the bible? It is not I my friend.

You ignore Jesus' teachings on hell, eternal fire, eternal punishment, eternal life in Matthew 25. You ignore Jesus' teaching in Luke 16. You ignore Jesus' teaching in Matthew 5 about hell fire. You ignore Jesus' teaching about the eye or hand perishing as opposed to the whole body being tossed into hell in Matthew 5. You ignore Jesus' teaching that we are body and soul and God can destroy both in hell as recorded in Matthew 10. You ignore Jesus' teaching concerning one being cast into hell fire as taught in Matthew 18. You ignore Jesus' teaching the damnation of hell in Matthew 23. You ignore Jesus' teaching about hell after death in Luke 16. You ignore Jesus' teaching concerning those workers of iniquity being cast into the furnace of fire where there will be wailing and gnashing of teeth recorded in Matthew 13. You ignore that hell and death are two separate existences as recorded in four separate verses in Revelation. You ignore the places in scripture that deliniate the separation between the physical body and the soul as in Acts 2:27.

 

[Imagican]

A little 'tid-bit' of information that has been 'hit upon' but NOT realized in these posts.

Is there ANY solid PROOF that ALL mankind was gifted with a 'soul'? There ARE indications offered throughout The Word, but is there ANY SOLID PROOF?

As has been offered by some; there is an OVERWHELMING indication that ETERNAL damnation may be the simple SEPARATION from God. Wouldn't that indeed be a VERY SEVERE punishment? And, something that HASN'T been 'hit upon' yet, what if HELL, (the fire and pain, etc..........), is the THOUSAND years that one will be 'in hell' previous to judgement. What if those that have chosen to worship their disobedience are simply 'stuck' in total darkness with NOTHING but their worst fears and anguish for the ENTIRE time until judgement? Wouldn't that 'seem' to be ETERNAL. Every second facing one's worst 'feelings', with NO HOPE for relief, and being 'traped' here for a thousand years. If that's NOT hell then it OUGHT to be.

And what if there ARE those that are WITHOUT an eternal soul? What if they simply die and their life force simply returns to God and they simply 'cease' to exists?

I know, many will be saying; 'this guy is NUTS'. What most that will feel this way are UNABLE to comprehend is that The Bible was written for those that WILL accept Christ. There WILL be MANY that will NEVER read The Word and STILL live their lives the EXACT SAME WAY that 'so called Christians do'. If there is NEVER a chance for them to read The Word or to even HEAR it, do you really think that God will PUNISH them? What a loving God THAT would be.

So, we will NEVER KNOW EXACTLY what Hell is until we are ABLE to. What we do know is that those that DO know God are held MORE accountable than those that don't. We also know that there is ETERNITY for those that are 'given the chance'. But the MOST IMPORTANT issue is 'faith'. Faith that, NO MATTER WHAT, we, who follow The Word and seek a relationship WITH GOD, through His Son, WILL one day live WITH THEM.

MEC

 

[Gabbylittleangel]

I don't have Book, Chapter or Verse for this... but I just always kinda sorta figured that the soul was the difference between a live person and a dead one. :-?

 

[SputnikBoy]

You're probably right, Imagican. Many of us come on here and say this or that as though we know it all. We claim that our belief is virtually set into concrete. NONE OF US know for sure what the final outcome will be and as to what that outcome might entail. I'm sure that God never intended for us to 'play God' simply from reading the Bible. We might have the basics from the Bible but we're guessing the rest at best.

The 'eternal torment' team in particular need to cut it out calling others who disagree with them a 'cult' when they themselves really have NO IDEA what the end will be like. None of us know if we're being totally honest!

 

[Oscar3]

Sput
Of course you would agree with Imajic. Your kind have to stick together.

 

[SputnikBoy]

Sput
Of course you would agree with Imajic. Your kind have to stick together.

You just can't help yourself, can you?

 

[guibox]

You ignore Jesus' teachings on hell, eternal fire, eternal punishment, eternal life in Matthew 25..

No I look at it in context with the salvation history of man and the wages of sin being death. 'everlasting life' is CONTRASTED with 'everlasting punishment' The wages of sin is death...that is the punishment and it is indeed everlasting. Everlasting punishment cannot be 'life' in any form for it is contrasted with everlasting life. The opposite of life is not life, it is death (read Romans 6:23 again and again and again)

You ignore Jesus' teaching in Luke 16...

Again, no I don't. I get the message very well. The message was to the Pharisees that being part of Abraham's lineage meant doodly squat when those amongst you are being ignored. Stewardship to your fellow man was what Jesus was saying here. For clear theology of life after death, I read in the bible where Jesus was actually trying to portray it.

You ignore Jesus' teaching in Matthew 5 about hell fire. You ignore Jesus' teaching about the eye or hand perishing as opposed to the whole body being tossed into hell in Matthew 5. You ignore Jesus' teaching that we are body and soul and God can destroy both in hell as recorded in Matthew 10. You ignore Jesus' teaching concerning one being cast into hell fire as taught in Matthew 18. You ignore Jesus' teaching the damnation of hell in Matthew 23..You ignore Jesus' teaching concerning those workers of iniquity being cast into the furnace of fire where there will be wailing and gnashing of teeth recorded in Matthew 13.....

I ignore none of them. I fully believe them for the nature or duration of hell is not spoken of in any of these verses (BTW, if the 'soul' can be destroyed in hell, it is not immortal and if God COULD destroy it in hell but chooses NOT to, He would be a tryant. I'm glad I don't follow a God like that!)

You ignore that hell and death are two separate existences as recorded in four separate verses in Revelation. You ignore the places in scripture that deliniate the separation between the physical body and the soul as in Acts 2:27.

Have you actually looked at Acts 2? It is talking about Jesus being left in Sheol. The word for soul here is the same as 'nephesh', 'psuche' which means LIFE. Jesus was not left to perish in the grave but was resurrected as was prophesied by David. Death and Hell are not two separate existences but parallellism shows they are related. Death is the ruler of 'Sheol/Hades'. 'Death and Hades gives up the DEAD that are in them.' The 'dead' that are in them are not really 'dead' if their 'souls' live on, are they? The bible makes a clear distinction between the 'dead' and the 'living', solo. All the other uses of Hades other than the parable of Luke 16 support this.

What don't you understand about that clear teaching, solo?

 

[Solo]

I don't have Book, Chapter or Verse for this... but I just always kinda sorta figured that the soul was the difference between a live person and a dead one. :-?

28And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell. Matthew 10:28

Jesus never lies, only those who have not his Spirit do.

 

[Solo]

Interesting website:

http://www.av1611.org/hell.html

 

[Solo]

Remember that before Jesus returns, there will be a great turning away from sound doctrine after which the son of perdition will be revealed. After that Jesus will come to gather his elect.

Believers cannot stop those that teach doctrines of devils, but we can warn others about the conflagration that is ever growing in this world in prelude to the coming of the son of perdition who will set himself up to govern the world as God.

1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him, 2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand. 3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; 4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God. 2 Thessalonians 2:1-4

Do I believe that Churches that used to teach truth will fall away and begin teaching false doctrines as the cults have? Yes.

1 Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils; 1 Timothy 4:1

3 For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears; 4 And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables. 2 Timothy 4:3-4

They will turn from the truth of the sound doctrines that have been taught in Churches for 2000 years and give heed to seducing spirits who will entice them of their own lusts by itching their ears.

Here are two interesting articles on the teachings of hell.

Evangelicals and the Annihilation of Hell - Part 1
Evangelicals and the Annihilation of Hell - Part 2

.

 

[CP_Mike]

Forgive me! :-D

Let me try this again...

1 Samuel 28:9 And the woman said unto him, Behold, thou knowest what Saul hath done, how he hath cut off those that have familiar spirits, and the wizards, out of the land: wherefore then layest thou a snare for my life, to cause me to die?
10 And Saul sware to her by the LORD, saying, As the LORD liveth, there shall no punishment happen to thee for this thing.
11 Then said the woman, Whom shall I bring up unto thee? And he said, Bring me up Samuel.
12 And when the woman saw Samuel, she cried with a loud voice: and the woman spake to Saul, saying, Why hast thou deceived me? for thou art Saul.
13 And the king said unto her, Be not afraid: for what sawest thou? And the woman said unto Saul, I saw gods ascending out of the earth.
14 And he said unto her, What form is he of? And she said, An old man cometh up; and he is covered with a mantle. And Saul perceived that it was Samuel, and he stooped with his face to the ground, and bowed himself.
Saul, hearing his ruin foretold, faints
15 And Samuel said to Saul, Why hast thou disquieted me, to bring me up? And Saul answered, I am sore distressed; for the Philistines make war against me, and God is departed from me, and answereth me no more, neither by prophets, nor by dreams: therefore I have called thee, that thou mayest make known unto me what I shall do.
16 Then said Samuel, Wherefore then dost thou ask of me, seeing the LORD is departed from thee, and is become thine enemy?

Sorry, Mike, and the Lord bless you. :-D

Hi Lovely,
Thanks for posting this. This has nothing to do with immortality of 'Nephesh', but the Hebrews believed that when they were dead, they were 'Rephaim' meaning shadows. One can see 'snare for my life (nephesh) and caused me to die gives one an idea that the 'nephesh' or soul dies at physical death.

 

[guibox]

Remember that before Jesus returns, there will be a great turning away from sound doctrine after which the son of perdition will be revealed. After that Jesus will come to gather his elect.

Believers cannot stop those that teach doctrines of devils, but we can warn others about the conflagration that is ever growing in this world in prelude to the coming of the son of perdition who will set himself up to govern the world as God.

Who is Satan and what does he do, Solo?

Satan's job is to scare people away from God. It is to spread lies and falsehoods about the loving character of Christ. It is to tell people that God is tyrant, unloving, vindictive and unmerciful, that following Him is a waste of time.

Tell me how many atheists have been created because of the false God of eternal torment? Tell me what is a 'doctrine of devils' in the highest degree? Tell me what doctrine caused more fear, superstition and deaths in the middle ages? Tell me which doctrine that Satan has used more than any other to smear the name of God? Tell me which doctrine paints God in a blood thirsty manner and in which contradicts the very nature of God that He came to save us while we were yet sinners and that He loves us even unto the ends of the earth?

It ain't annihilation, my friend.

They will turn from the truth of the sound doctrines that have been taught in Churches for 2000 years and give heed to seducing spirits who will entice them of their own lusts by itching their ears

Are you Catholic, Solo? If not you are a contradiction to your own words. Does the Reformation mean anything to you as a Protestant? I guess you get to pick and choose which are 'sound doctrines' that 'have been taught in Churches for 2000 years'? So did Martin Luther, Hus, Wycliff and Tyndale as well. They were going against what was 'sound doctrine' of its time.

Or are they teaching 'truth' and not 'doctrines of devils' simply because they agree with you?...Oh wait, neither Martin Luther OR Tyndale agree with you on the immortality of the soul!... :-? Hmmm...I guess they are teaching 'doctrines of devils' too?

Follow the whole word of God, Solo, you will find the truth will set you free from the Auschwitz God Satan has spread lies about for so many years.

 

[Imagican]

There is MUCH wisdom in the offering above by guibox. God is NOT able to be 'placed in a box' of OUR design. What IS impossible for US is NOT for HIM.

MEC

 

[Oscar3]

19–21. There was a certain rich man … and there was a certain beggar. This is the true account of a real history of two men, even though it is used much like a parable, i.e., to teach a particular lesson or to emphasize some principle. Some, however, contend that this is a parable saying that (1) the name Lazarus means “God helps†and is figurative or perhaps was intentionally chosen later because another Lazarus did come back from the dead; (2) it begins exactly as the preceding “parable†in Luke 16:1 (which incidentally is also not called a parable in the text); (3) it is used in parabolic fashion to prove a main point; (4) facts are presented in symbolic form; (5) it is in the context of other parables in Luke 15–18; (6) Christ would not have divulged such truths to unbelieving Pharisees; (7) the ability to see, hear, and communicate between heaven and hell after death is not possible; (8) the rich man would not have known Abraham and Lazarus by sight; and (9) in real life the names of rich men are given, while beggars’ names are unknown. Some of these points are well-taken, but none prove that this account was only a parable.
There are numerous arguments for this account being a real history. (1) Parables are hypothetical illustrations and never name specific individuals. Here not only Lazarus is named, but also Abraham (vss. 22–25, 29–30) and Moses (vs. 31). (2) Jesus said “there was a certain rich man.†Harry Ironside noted, “Was there, or was there not? He definitely declared that there was.†(3) Moses, Abraham, and the prophets are real people, whereas parables never refer to specific Old Testament saints. (4) Luke does not call this a parable as he does in thirteen other clear cases of parable so designated. (5) It is narrated like a real history. (6) Parables deal with the commonplace of what is known to be true to illustrate moral lessons, and come from natural life. This does not. (7) Hades is a reality, not a figure of speech. (8) There is no reason why Jesus could not have had in mind a particular case. He is describing what took place after death in the cases of two men for the moral profit of His hearers. (9) The conversation between the rich man and Abraham does not seem to lend itself to parabolic format. (10) Even a case history, as this is, could be used in parabolic fashion to teach a precise moral truth.
22. Abraham’s bosom. This is a designation for where Abraham was, taken variously as being heaven itself or some other intermediate place.
23–25. And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments. Between death and resurrection the immaterial part of man goes either to be with the Lord, if he is saved (II Cor 5:8; Phil 1:23), or into conscious torment as here. Resurrection reunites the body to the soul, and the state of existence continues to be either with Christ, or in the punishment of eternal duration (Mt 25:41, 46).
26. A great gulf fixed. Once a person passes from this life his probation is ended, and his eternal destiny is fixed. It has been appointed by God that once a man dies, then comes the judgment (Heb 9:27).
27–30. I have five brethren. The rich man’s name and town are probably omitted in Christ’s recounting of this history because of the embarrassment it might bring to his family that was still living.
31. If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead. Another Lazarus did return from the dead and the religious leaders sought only to kill him, though some believed through his testimony (Jn 12:9–11). Several additional teachings about hell are contained in this brief history. Memory and personality continue there even in the midst of untold anguish, misery, and suffering. There is no returning or sending back of messages from hell; thus, no reincarnation, nor spiritism as it is thought of by those who are thereby deceived.

KJV Bible commentary

 

[Gabbylittleangel]

28And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell. Matthew 10:28.

Thanks, Solo.

 

[Solo]

Are you Catholic, Solo? If not you are a contradiction to your own words. Does the Reformation mean anything to you as a Protestant? I guess you get to pick and choose which are 'sound doctrines' that 'have been taught in Churches for 2000 years'? So did Martin Luther, Hus, Wycliff and Tyndale as well. They were going against what was 'sound doctrine' of its time.

Or are they teaching 'truth' and not 'doctrines of devils' simply because they agree with you?...Oh wait, neither Martin Luther OR Tyndale agree with you on the immortality of the soul!... :-? Hmmm...I guess they are teaching 'doctrines of devils' too?

Follow the whole word of God, Solo, you will find the truth will set you free from the Auschwitz God Satan has spread lies about for so many years.

I am not a Roman Catholic, I am a believer in Jesus Christ.
I am not a protestant, I am a believer in Jesus Christ as were many before the labels placed on them by the Roman Catholic Church.

Here are a few excerpts from Martin Luther's writings:

• "When man, conscious of his failure to keep God’s command, is constantly urged by the Law to make payment of his debt and confronted with nothing but the terrible wrath of God and eternal condemnation, he cannot but sink into despair over his sins." Martin Luther Terrors of the Law
  
  "When the consolation of the Gospel has once been received and it has wrested the heart from death and the terrors of hell, the Spirit’s influence is felt. " Martin Luther Efficacy of the Gospel
  
  "Ninthly, whoever perceives himself to be so hard and sterile that he is not terror-stricken by Christ’s sufferings and led to a knowledge of him, he should fear and tremble. For it cannot be otherwise; you must become like the picture and sufferings of Christ, be it realized in life or in hell; you must at the time of death, if not sooner, fall into terror, tremble, quake and experience all Christ suffered on the cross." Martin Luther The True View of Christ's Sufferings
  
  "But if you ostentatiously boast of such righteousness to him, he pronounces his sentence of judgment making you an abomination, an enemy of the cross of Christ, and shaming your boasted honor and finally casting you into hell. Martin Luther God's Patience with Human Righteousness

You may continue to look to man for your doctrines my friend, but Jesus Christ plainly teaches the difference between the body and soul, and he teaches of the everlasting fire and punishment of those that are unsaved. Believe what you want; that is your choice.
.

 

[guibox]

You may continue to look to man for your doctrines my friend, but Jesus Christ plainly teaches the difference between the body and soul, and he teaches of the everlasting fire and punishment of those that are unsaved. Believe what you want; that is your choice.

Ah, Solo. But you ARE looking to man for your doctrines for it was the Church that interpreted them that way. Please show me the 'plain teaching' that the body and soul are separate and that the usage of the original words for 'soul' mean my immortal essence that leaves my body at death.

This you have not, nor cannot prove, but MUST resort to 'man's doctrines' for support. You can't get around this, Solo.

The plain teaching of the word of God tells me that it is through resurrection and not immortality that eternal life is granted and that man will die for his sins and will not receive this immortality should he reject the gift giver.

That is what the Bible teaches and we have made it plain as day (just read all of 1 Corinthians 15 for Pete's sake!)

 

[Solo]

Ah, Solo. But you ARE looking to man for your doctrines for it was the Church that interpreted them that way. Please show me the 'plain teaching' that the body and soul are separate and that the usage of the original words for 'soul' mean my immortal essence that leaves my body at death.

This you have not, nor cannot prove, but MUST resort to 'man's doctrines' for support. You can't get around this, Solo.

The plain teaching of the word of God tells me that it is through resurrection and not immortality that eternal life is granted and that man will die for his sins and will not receive this immortality should he reject the gift giver.

That is what the Bible teaches and we have made it plain as day (just read all of 1 Corinthians 15 for Pete's sake!)

Ah guibox, my poor mistaken friend. You are caught up in the false teachings of the Seventh Day Adventists, and refuse to accept Jesus' teachings. Perhaps one day you will realize that the Holy Spirit's teachings are those that you should be listening to.

28And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell. Matthew 10:28

 

[guibox]

28And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell. Matthew 10:28

I'm not sure how many times or ways this can be said or shown from the original language to you before you can come to grips with it over your stubborn desire to place tradition and apologism over the bible...

'soul' here is 'psuche' translated the same as 'nephesh'...it means LIFE, Solo, 'LIFE'.

Man cannot destroy your eternity, your eternal life. They can only destroy the body in this life. God can (and will) destroy your eternal life.

If....a far reaching IF...If the soul WAS some separate existence outside the body, then it CAN be destroyed. It is NOT immortal.

SO....

If the soul CAN be destroyed but WILL not be destroyed by God, but allowed to be tortured for trillions of years, then He is a cruel, heartless tyrant...especially considering that 'death' was the punishment for sin to begin with.

Explain this to me Solo...

1. How can a disembodied 'soul' be tormented by fire?


2. Why are you trying so hard to prove that man's soul goes to a fiery hell when BOTH the parable of the Rich man and Lazarus and Revelation 20 (if you are to take them literally) tell us that it is the BODIES of the wicked which are in hell and/or cast into the lake of fire and tormented for all eternity?

3. How exactly can the wicked's 'bodies' be tormented eternally when they are physical and the Bible tells us NOWHERE that the wicked receive immortal bodies at their resurrection??

I sure would love it if you could start explaining these inconsistencies and gross, glaring errors that have no biblical support instead of playing the 'cult' card as you have been.

Then I would like you to go back and explain my previous thread on who has immortality and when...

Try and address these errors instead of skipping over them to constantly repeat your mantra and play the cult card, please.

 

[SputnikBoy]

Ah guibox, my poor mistaken friend. You are caught up in the false teachings of the Seventh Day Adventists, and refuse to accept Jesus' teachings. Perhaps one day you will realize that the Holy Spirit's teachings are those that you should be listening to.

To my knowledge, guibox has NEVER mentioned an 'Adventist doctrine' YET to support 'annihilation'. He has used NOTHING OTHER THAN SCRIPTURE to make his case. BE man enough and humble enough to acknowledge that fact, Solo! And, please stop with this 'I'm filled with the teaching of the Holy Spirit and you're not' rhetoric as if that somehow exalts you above everyone else merely by virtue of saying it ad infinitum.

Incidentally, the 'Adventist doctrine' on this issue is derived by the same scriptural reference method as those used by guibox. So PLEASE STOP with your poison toward SDAs, Solo. It doesn't help 'your cause' (whatever that cause is ...?) one iota. To the 'thinking person' that kind of slander aimed primarily at INDIVIDUALS doesn't wash any more!

28And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell. Matthew 10:28

Please don't use that text as though an authoritarian as to its meaning, Solo. You have no idea what it means. If you did you would know that it only SUPPORTS the 'annihilation' doctrine. Why is the Holy Spirit not prompting you more thoroughly on this issue?