The Root of It

[Solo]

I'm not sure how many times or ways this can be said or shown from the original language to you before you can come to grips with it over your stubborn desire to place tradition and apologism over the bible...

'soul' here is 'psuche' translated the same as 'nephesh'...it means LIFE, Solo, 'LIFE'.

Man cannot destroy your eternity, your eternal life. They can only destroy the body in this life. God can (and will) destroy your eternal life.

If....a far reaching IF...If the soul WAS some separate existence outside the body, then it CAN be destroyed. It is NOT immortal.

SO....

If the soul CAN be destroyed but WILL not be destroyed by God, but allowed to be tortured for trillions of years, then He is a cruel, heartless tyrant...especially considering that 'death' was the punishment for sin to begin with.

Explain this to me Solo...

1. How can a disembodied 'soul' be tormented by fire?


2. Why are you trying so hard to prove that man's soul goes to a fiery hell when BOTH the parable of the Rich man and Lazarus and Revelation 20 (if you are to take them literally) tell us that it is the BODIES of the wicked which are in hell and/or cast into the lake of fire and tormented for all eternity?

3. How exactly can the wicked's 'bodies' be tormented eternally when they are physical and the Bible tells us NOWHERE that the wicked receive immortal bodies at their resurrection??

I sure would love it if you could start explaining these inconsistencies and gross, glaring errors that have no biblical support instead of playing the 'cult' card as you have been.

Then I would like you to go back and explain my previous thread on who has immortality and when...

Try and address these errors instead of skipping over them to constantly repeat your mantra and play the cult card, please.

Your misunderstanding of eternity has brought you to the point of redefining scripture. God transcends time by which the physical is bound, therefore, when the physical body dies the soul is translated into a timeless dimension. Jesus speaks correctly about the body and soul being two different portions of a person. Notice that the soul is different than the body, and your definition of life is contradictory to all of your other claims. The body and soul exist, and the body is within the bounds of time, while the soul is not. Eternity is that dimension where time does not exist.

Man can kill the life from the body, but is not able to kill the life of the soul. The soul that is not one that serves God Almighty will spend eternity in punishment, while the soul that serves God will spend eternity with Him. Your confusion comes from listening to the teachings of the Seventh Day Adventists. Try listening to the Holy Spirit, you will be much better off.

28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell. - Jesus as recorded in Matthew 10:28

quibox asks 1. How can a disembodied 'soul' be tormented by fire?

Ask Jesus, he does not lie:

• Jesus said the following in Luke 16 - "...the rich man also died, and was buried; And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom. And he cried and said, 'Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame'".
  
  quibox asks 2. Why are you trying so hard to prove that man's soul goes to a fiery hell when BOTH the parable of the Rich man and Lazarus and Revelation 20 (if you are to take them literally) tell us that it is the BODIES of the wicked which are in hell and/or cast into the lake of fire and tormented for all eternity?
  
  Jesus says that the bodies of the rich man and Lazarus died and were buried. Based on Jesus' teaching in Matthew 10:28 that the body and soul can be destroyed in hell, I read that the soul of Lazarus ended up in paradise, and the soul of the rich man ended up in hell. Revelation 20 tells us that the dead will be raised and judged. At this time the unrighteous dead will be judged and cast into the lake of fire. Both their souls and bodies will be cast into the lake of fire. I haven't read where the soul of the rich man ceased to exist, but I have read where the soul of the rich man was tormented in flame.
  
  guibox asks 3. How exactly can the wicked's 'bodies' be tormented eternally when they are physical and the Bible tells us NOWHERE that the wicked receive immortal bodies at their resurrection??
  
  You must read the whole Bible sometime without the taint of the false teachings of Ellen G. White. All of the dead bodies are resurrected one day. The righteous children of God will be resurrected in the First resurrection where the second death will not harm them. The unrighteous will be resurrected in the second resurrection where they will be judged and sent to the lake of fire for everlasting punishment, in a place where there is not time. Jesus teaches everlasting punishment, which means eternal punishment, which means torment in flame in a dimension without time. Don't continue to be stuck in a finite human understanding mode of created time, space, and physical matter; God's dimension is spiritual, and the things of God must be understood in the spiritual, not the emotional physical.
  .

 

[SputnikBoy]

I don't know about you, guibox, and others, but I give up. I refuse to lend myself to this continued nonsense and unholy teaching. You can have your eternal torment, Solo, and your God who would inflict this attrocity on a mere mortal ...someone who can't even fight back against such an all-powerful bully. This isn't my God, Solo, but yours. We're not even necessarily talking about hardened criminals here (not that it would make any difference if we were) ...but your friends and loved ones and my friends and loved ones. Their only 'crime'? Not to have accepted Jesus into their lives. PUNISHABLE BY ETERNAL TORMENT IN HELL! I've had it with this moronic thinking . . .

 

[Atonement]

I just wanted to comment on one thing here. I used my Messianic Greek Bible and two different Greek software programs, and I used a Latin software program and the word used is ψυχή which in it's original meaning means eternal soul. It's Abbreviation is a noun. Every program I used came to the same conclusion, therefore:

'soul' here is 'psuche' translated the same as 'nephesh'...it means LIFE, Solo, 'LIFE'.

Is not true. You might have some out-dated software or software that does not give original meanings? I'm curious what program, or software you have so I can study it?? I am a computer tech this is what I do by nature...

Sorry to interrupt

 

[Solo]

I don't know about you, guibox, and others, but I give up. I refuse to lend myself to this continued nonsense and unholy teaching. You can have your eternal torment, Solo, and your God who would inflict this attrocity on a mere mortal ...someone who can't even fight back against such an all-powerful bully. This isn't my God, Solo, but yours. We're not even necessarily talking about hardened criminals here (not that it would make any difference if we were) ...but your friends and loved ones and my friends and loved ones. Their only 'crime'? Not to have accepted Jesus into their lives. PUNISHABLE BY ETERNAL TORMENT IN HELL! I've had it with this moronic thinking . . .

Since you have had it with "moronic thinking", perhaps you will begin to listen to the teaching of the Holy Spirit. That is my suggestion. Good luck.

 

[Solo]

The loving father looks with joy at his little son playing in the fenced back yard with his toys. A little ball is the little boy's favorite toy. He sits and plays catch over and over and over again throughout the day. The little boy's loving father says to the little boy, "Do not go out of the yard because you will be unprotected, and never, never, never go into the street because you could get killed. The little boy nods his understanding and obediently continues to play with the ball in the fenced yard. The father goes into the house to answer the telephone, and the little boy accidently throws the ball over the fence. He looks around, and moves quickly to the gate. He opens the gate, and looks for his little ball. There it is laying in the street. Knowing that his father will be mad if he finds that he is outside the fence, he makes a mad dash into the street to retrieve his little ball, not thinking about believing his father about the danger of being killed in the street.
The tears ran down the loving father and mothers face as they placed the little ball in the coffin beside their little boy. The tragedy came true just as the father had warned his little son.

Who is the tyrant? Who did not obey? Who paid the price for disobedience?

 

[SputnikBoy]

The loving father looks with joy at his little son playing in the fenced back yard with his toys. A little ball is the little boy's favorite toy. He sits and plays catch over and over and over again throughout the day. The little boy's loving father says to the little boy, "Do not go out of the yard because you will be unprotected, and never, never, never go into the street because you could get killed. The little boy nods his understanding and obediently continues to play with the ball in the fenced yard. The father goes into the house to answer the telephone, and the little boy accidently throws the ball over the fence. He looks around, and moves quickly to the gate. He opens the gate, and looks for his little ball. There it is laying in the street. Knowing that his father will be mad if he finds that he is outside the fence, he makes a mad dash into the street to retrieve his little ball, not thinking about believing his father about the danger of being killed in the street.
The tears ran down the loving father and mothers face as they placed the little ball in the coffin beside their little boy. The tragedy came true just as the father had warned his little son.

Who is the tyrant? Who did not obey? Who paid the price for disobedience?

Solo, despite the 'sweetness' of your story. At no time did the father threaten the little boy with eternal torment. Big difference!

 

[TanNinety]

Not to forget, neither did the father in Solo's story build this street, plan/devise the speeding cars himself ..and because the boy disobeyed run these speeding cars over his body for the rest of eternity without death.

 

[Solo]

God created the lake of fire for the devil and his angels prior to the creation of the physical creation. Prior to the physical creation and the creation of man, God was going to provide Jesus Christ as a payment for sin after the fall of man. Just as the angels have freewill, God created man with freewill to choose; and man has a choice to make. Eternally condemned to a place of torment without time, or a place of peace with the creator as a joint heir with Jesus Christ in a place without time.

Why did God make this plan according to the way that he has revealed to us in his word. Because he wanted to. Did he provide a way whereby all could escape the lake of fire? Yes. Why do we have to make such a choice? Ask God. Perhaps God doesn't want unbelievers in his eternity. Perhaps God wants a place of torment created for rebellious angels to mark the place one will end up when rebellious against the creator, and this whole scheme of things will not have to be played out over and over and over again.

 

[lovely]

Hi Mike,

Mike wrote:

Hi Lovely,
Thanks for posting this. This has nothing to do with immortality of 'Nephesh', but the Hebrews believed that when they were dead, they were 'Rephaim' meaning shadows. One can see 'snare for my life (nephesh) and caused me to die gives one an idea that the 'nephesh' or soul dies at physical death.

I do not claim to have an understanding of Hebrew, or Greek, very little if you can consider it any at this point. I do know this, though, Scripture MUST be it's own interpretation first and foremost, even if the words are Hebrew. The context of the words are important. The traditional beliefs of a specific sect of Jews does not determine the state of a soul after physical death, nor do any modern denominations, God does alone. The Sadducees actually only took the Torah into consideration, and ignored the rest of Scripture. I think as believers we have the WHOLE revelation of God, and the Holy Spirit to teach us, and we can not ignore that...we won't. I have no quarrel with your answer at all, though. In fact, I think it does show that there was some sort of sleep state to the soul that the Hebrew language described as shades, or shadows. It's obvious Samuel was called up, and was able to be recognized, and communicate.

Genesis 2:7 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

Man is body, and soul. Man's body will die...it is appointed unto man once to die. But, I believe that Scripture teaches that his soul/spirit/life(?) only sleeps.

Isaiah 24:17-22 refers to the death of the wicked prior to the millennial reign of Christ. So, they are very dead in body...and in soul, though I believe their soul is conscious, as in asleep, until they are resurrected unto judgement for the eternal death that awaits them. I think the deadness of man being a final state of non-existence is error, and there is no pattern for it at all in Scripture. Verses that say the dead know nothing to no force me to conclude this at all. The dead know nothing in their sleep, unless they are called up as Samuel was, and all is recollected unto their Spirits. Samuel was even aware that Saul had called him up.

Consider Mark 9:45-49 (KJV)45 And if thy foot offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter halt into life, than having two feet to be cast into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched: 46 Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched. 47 And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out: it is better for thee to enter into the kingdom of God with one eye, than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire: 48 Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched. 49 For every one shall be salted with fire, and every sacrifice shall be salted with salt."

I will explain more in my next post, and may the Lord bless you.

 

[guibox]

SB,

I agree with you. Solo automatically assumes the soul is immortal (of which cannot be proven linguistically (sorry Atonement, despite your software, no theologian I know of worth their salt will translate 'nephesh'/'psuche' as the Bible and not the Greeks use it as 'eternal'), and then reads that back into every text with no basis for it.

And then when he can't explain it, he plays the 'cult' card even throwing 'Ellen White' into the mix. It is an easy out when you can't support your doctrines based on assumptions.

So, until Solo starts doing that and quits bringing SDAism into the mix, he is on my ignore list. Do the rest of you really want to debate him with his allegations of not listening to the Spirit or listening to a 'cult'

I for one am not...

 

[lovely]

Hi everyone,

This post is connected to my last response to Mike...so it may make better sense if both are read. It's long simply because I printed the verses for everyone's ease.

I want to ask another question to everyone.

Will ALL men (body and soul) be resurrected again?

Some things to think about, and some verses...

Is the soul dead at man's mortal death...of which is appointed to all men once...or is it sleeping? (John 11:11-14 and Matthew 9:24) Are the shadows, or shades, the spirits (souls) of these sleeping people (souls)? And will the wicked rise with the righteous? The righteous unto everlasting life of the body, soul, spirit etc...the wicked unto everlasting death and torment.

Genesis 3:22 And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:
23 Therefore the LORD God sent him forth from the garden of Eden, to till the ground from whence he was taken.
24 So he drove out the man; and he placed at the east of the garden of Eden Cherubims, and a flaming sword which turned every way, to keep the way of the tree of life.

When Adam and Eve ate, their eyes were opened (spiritual death?), and they began to die (physically?). God removed the tree of life so that they would not live forever in a corrupt state, but be resurrected again one day unto life eternal, and no longer spiritually dead because of Christ.

1 Corinthians 15:51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.

Now these dead are believers. Are they sleeping souls/spirits? 1 Corinthians 15, above, seems to indicate this. There are other verses that indicate this as well.

1 Corinthians 11:30 30 For this cause many are weak and sickly among you, and many sleep.

1 Thessalonians 5:9 For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,
10 Who died for us, that, whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with him.

Jesus also indicated this of these two people...we will assume that they are believers.

Matthew 9:24-25
24 He said unto them, Give place: for the maid is not dead, but sleepeth. And they laughed him to scorn.
25 But when the people were put forth, he went in, and took her by the hand, and the maid arose.

John 11:11-14
11 These things said he: and after that he saith unto them, Our friend Lazarus sleepeth; but I go, that I may awake him out of sleep.
12 Then said his disciples, Lord, if he sleep, he shall do well.
13 Howbeit Jesus spake of his death: but they thought that he had spoken of taking of rest in sleep.
14 Then said Jesus unto them plainly, Lazarus is dead.

Believers will be resurrected...

Luke 20:33-38
33 Therefore in the resurrection whose wife of them is she? for seven had her to wife.
34 And Jesus answering said unto them, The children of this world marry, and are given in marriage:
35 But they which shall be accounted worthy to obtain that world, and the resurrection from the dead, neither marry, nor are given in marriage:
36 Neither can they die any more: for they are equal unto the angels; and are the children of God, being the children of the resurrection.
37 Now that the dead are raised, even Moses shewed at the bush, when he calleth the Lord the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob.
38 For he is not a God of the dead, but of the living: for all live unto him.

Philippians 3:10-11 10 That I may know him, and the power of his resurrection, and the fellowship of his sufferings, being made conformable unto his death;
11 If by any means I might attain unto the resurrection of the dead.

Why did God forbid the use of mediums, and the practice of talking with the dead if it were not possible...if they were not in some state of sleep in their souls?

Isaiah 8:19 And when they shall say unto you, Seek unto them that have familiar spirits, and unto wizards that peep, and that mutter: should not a people seek unto their God? for the living to the dead?

Leviticus 19:31 Regard not them that have familiar spirits, neither seek after wizards, to be defiled by them: I am the LORD your God.

We see it is actually possible...

1 Samuel 28:15-16
15 And Samuel said to Saul, Why hast thou disquieted me, to bring me up? And Saul answered, I am sore distressed; for the Philistines make war against me, and God is departed from me, and answereth me no more, neither by prophets, nor by dreams: therefore I have called thee, that thou mayest make known unto me what I shall do.
16 Then said Samuel, Wherefore then dost thou ask of me, seeing the LORD is departed from thee, and is become thine enemy?

But, what of the wicked? Will they also one day be resurrected?

Daniel 12:1-2
1 And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book. 2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.

John 5:28-29
28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, 29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

Acts 24:14-16
14 But this I confess unto thee, that after the way which they call heresy, so worship I the God of my fathers, believing all things which are written in the law and in the prophets: 15 And have hope toward God, which they themselves also allow, that there shall be a resurrection of the dead, both of the just and unjust. 16 And herein do I exercise myself, to have always a conscience void of offence toward God, and toward men.

Revelation 20:11-15
11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.
12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

There are two categories mentioned the sheep, and the goats, of all the nations...

Matthew 25:31-46
31 When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:
32 And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats: 33 And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left. 34 Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:
35 For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in:
36 Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me.
37 Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, and fed thee? or thirsty, and gave thee drink?
38 When saw we thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and clothed thee?
39 Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee?
40 And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me.
41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:
42 For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink:
43 I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not.
44 Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee?
45 Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me.
46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

The Lord bless all of you.

 

[TanNinety]

Scripture MUST be it's own interpretation first and foremost, even if the words are Hebrew.

But you tend to reverse engineer this scripture interpretation. You interpret old testament scripture based on new testament. New testament scripture should be interpreted in light of the old testament, not the other way around.

It's obvious Samuel was called up, and was able to be recognized, and communicate.

1 Samuel 28:9 The woman said to him, Behold, you know what Saul has done, how he has cut off those who have familiar spirits, and the wizards, out of the land: why then lay you a snare for my life, to cause me to die? …28:13 The king said to her, Don't be afraid: for what do you see? The woman said to Saul, I see a god coming up out of the earth.

28:14 He said to her, What form is he of? She said, An old man comes up; and he is covered with a robe. Saul perceived that it was Samuel, and he bowed with his face to the ground, and did obeisance.

What do you understand my FAMILIAR SPIRITS lovely, coz it is really important in understanding the story of Saul, Samuel and the medium. A familiar spirit is a spirit that is familiar of a real person who is dead so it can impersonate as that person when summoned. No where does scripture state that Samuel’s spirit rose, but the medium saw and Saul perceived meaning assumed it was Samuel based on the description that the medium gave him. And the spirit that the woman saw was a spirit that was familiar of the life of Samuel, so it was well capable of impersonating him. Why do you think God commanded us to stay away from mediums? And why would Samuel appear if he knew God was against it? To base an eternal soul doctrine on a concept that God abhors is questionable.

Man is body, and soul. Man's body will die...it is appointed unto man once to die. But, I believe that Scripture teaches that his soul/spirit/life(?) only sleeps.
So, they are very dead in body...and in soul, though I believe their soul is conscious, as in asleep, until they are resurrected unto judgement for the eternal death that awaits them. I think the deadness of man being a final state of non-existence is error, and there is no pattern for it at all in Scripture. Verses that say the dead know nothing to no force me to conclude this at all. The dead know nothing in their sleep

Let me quickly recap the illogicality of conclusions this will lead to. If I get it wrong, point me to my error.

You define:
Life: Attaching soul into the body.
Death: separation of soul from body.
Resurrection: Life after Death i.e., Attaching soul into the body from where it has been previously separated from.
Eternal Life: Believers are resurrected. Similar to the resurrection of Jesus, which most won’t deny was physical bodily resurrection.
What happens to the wicked?
Eternal Death: Wicked are resurrected, and their resurrected bodies are thrown in lake of fire where the fire is unquenchable and the worm dieth not for an eternity.

Eternal life = Eternal death = resurrection = attachment of soul back into body(only a change in place of where the final product is).

BUT, death is defined as separation of soul from body. But eternal death is attachment of soul back into the body. Is eternal death different from death? WHY?

If only souls of the wicked are thrown in the lake of fire, show me scripture that supports this, because my guess was the wicked are resurrected and then thrown into the fire according to scripture.

Consider Mark 9:45-49 (KJV)45 And if thy foot offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter halt into life, than having two feet to be cast into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched: 46 Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched. 47 And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out: it is better for thee to enter into the kingdom of God with one eye, than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire: 48 Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched. 49 For every one shall be salted with fire, and every sacrifice shall be salted with salt."

You can clearly see even Jesus says your BODY is cast into the hell. Now if this body is never destroyed ..for this body to have conscious torment it needs its soul ..so in hell we have body+soul ..and you have defined life as body+soul. So the wicked are eternally living in hell/lake of fire. But God says eternal life is a gift to the righteous. How do you reconcile it?

 

[Solo]

SB,

I agree with you. Solo automatically assumes the soul is immortal (of which cannot be proven linguistically (sorry Atonement, despite your software, no theologian I know of worth their salt will translate 'nephesh'/'psuche' as the Bible and not the Greeks use it as 'eternal'), and then reads that back into every text with no basis for it.

And then when he can't explain it, he plays the 'cult' card even throwing 'Ellen White' into the mix. It is an easy out when you can't support your doctrines based on assumptions.

So, until Solo starts doing that and quits bringing SDAism into the mix, he is on my ignore list. Do the rest of you really want to debate him with his allegations of not listening to the Spirit or listening to a 'cult'

I for one am not...

I assume nothing. I believe Jesus' teachings, not mans teachings.

I feel very excited being placed on the same level as guibox puts Jesus. Jesus and I are on guibox's ignore list! :D

 

[CP_Mike]

Ah guibox, my poor mistaken friend. You are caught up in the false teachings of the Seventh Day Adventists, and refuse to accept Jesus' teachings. Perhaps one day you will realize that the Holy Spirit's teachings are those that you should be listening to.

28And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell. Matthew 10:28

Time to answer this verse.

Literally means

Don't fear those who can kill the body, but not extinguish your life, rather fear him who can destroy your entire existence permanently in the grave.

'Soul' primarily means life (Check Lev 17:11, DT 12:23 for a definition)

Substitute soul for 'life' and then you are close to a solution that does not make the bible contradict itself. Bottom line is you can't interpret scripture against itself and the broader meanings that 'Nephesh' and 'psuche' have come to mean from a Hebrew perspective.

 

[CP_Mike]

Your misunderstanding of eternity has brought you to the point of redefining scripture. God transcends time by which the physical is bound, therefore, when the physical body dies the soul is translated into a timeless dimension. Jesus speaks correctly about the body and soul being two different portions of a person. Notice that the soul is different than the body, and your definition of life is contradictory to all of your other claims. The body and soul exist, and the body is within the bounds of time, while the soul is not. Eternity is that dimension where time does not exist.

There is absolutely no reference to that in the bible. Did you not check the scriptures I posted what the Hebrews believed and wrote about?

Man can kill the life from the body, but is not able to kill the life of the soul. The soul that is not one that serves God Almighty will spend eternity in punishment, while the soul that serves God will spend eternity with Him. Your confusion comes from listening to the teachings of the Seventh Day Adventists. Try listening to the Holy Spirit, you will be much better off.

Soul in the bible has a very different meaning to the neoplatonic soul you are implying the bible uses.

Otherwise Matt 10:28 contradicts Numbers 23:10, Ezekiel 18:4 and Genesis 2:7

28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell. - Jesus as recorded in Matthew 10:28

[
quibox asks 1. How can a disembodied 'soul' be tormented by fire?

Ask Jesus, he does not lie:

• Jesus said the following in Luke 16 - "...the rich man also died, and was buried; And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom. And he cried and said, 'Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame'".
  

• 
  
  Luke 16 is a parable. 'Abrahams bosom' and the language used as I have stated already has come from the apochryphal language of the time (If you had a Catholic bible, read Macabees and you can see where the ideas had come from; largely from philisophical specualtion from Babylonian exile years)
  
  

  quibox asks 2. Why are you trying so hard to prove that man's soul goes to a fiery hell when BOTH the parable of the Rich man and Lazarus and Revelation 20 (if you are to take them literally) tell us that it is the BODIES of the wicked which are in hell and/or cast into the lake of fire and tormented for all eternity?
  
  Jesus says that the bodies of the rich man and Lazarus died and were buried. Based on Jesus' teaching in Matthew 10:28 that the body and soul can be destroyed in hell, I read that the soul of Lazarus ended up in paradise, and the soul of the rich man ended up in hell. Revelation 20 tells us that the dead will be raised and judged. At this time the unrighteous dead will be judged and cast into the lake of fire. Both their souls and bodies will be cast into the lake of fire. I haven't read where the soul of the rich man ceased to exist, but I have read where the soul of the rich man was tormented in flame.

  
  Please, please. It is not literal. You will not find anything else in the entire bible about Abraham's bosom period. Nor will you see that punishment takes place until after Jesus ' return and then comes the judgement after the first resurrection
  
  

  guibox asks 3. How exactly can the wicked's 'bodies' be tormented eternally when they are physical and the Bible tells us NOWHERE that the wicked receive immortal bodies at their resurrection??
  
  You must read the whole Bible sometime without the taint of the false teachings of Ellen G. White. All of the dead bodies are resurrected one day. The righteous children of God will be resurrected in the First resurrection where the second death will not harm them. The unrighteous will be resurrected in the second resurrection where they will be judged and sent to the lake of fire for everlasting punishment, in a place where there is not time. Jesus teaches everlasting punishment, which means eternal punishment, which means torment in flame in a dimension without time. Don't continue to be stuck in a finite human understanding mode of created time, space, and physical matter; God's dimension is spiritual, and the things of God must be understood in the spiritual, not the emotional physical.
  .

  
  Solo,
  You have consistantly ignored my posts. I am not a Seventh Day Adventist nor a Jehovah's Witness. I became a Christian in a Baptist church, attend an evangelical church along the lines of New Wine, but happened to have studied theology and have an interest in Greek influences on the church.
  
  In other words, please do not read Greek philisophical speculation into God's word. It clearly makes a contradiction of itself.

 

[guibox]

Time to answer this verse.

Literally means

Don't fear those who can kill the body, but not extinguish your life, rather fear him who can destroy your entire existence permanently in the grave.

Mike,

Actually, 'hell' here is 'gehenna', not 'Hades'. However, your explanation remains the same. This PROVES that 'hell-fire' CAN 'destroy' and not 'burn eternally'. Our 'life' will be destroyed by gehenna fire and NOT just our body.

This further reiterates what the entire Bible says: fire is used to extinguish, burn up, make waste, bring to ashes, destroy, make as it if didn't exist, consume, devour.

It is NEVER used ANYWHERE in teh scriptures to denote 'burn something eternally' or 'torment for eternity'.

All of these words the traditionalist ignores and plays the 'cult card' on.

 

[TanNinety]

In support to CP_Mike’s interpretation of the verse:

Mark 8:35 For whosoever will save his life [psuche] shall lose it; but whosoever shall lose his life [psuche] for my sake and the gospel's, the same shall save it.
36 For what shall it profit a man, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul [psuche]?
37 Or what shall a man give in exchange for his soul [psuche]?

That was the scripture I took from one of lovely’s quotes on the first page of this thread. You can clearly see that psuche being translated as life and soul in the very same passage has clearly created an ambiguous situation where it leads one to believe that soul is separate entity from life. This is then interpreted back into old testament scripture, even into the Genesis account where Adam became a living soul, instead it is misunderstood as a living soul was implanted into the body of Adam.

 

[CP_Mike]

I just wanted to comment on one thing here. I used my Messianic Greek Bible and two different Greek software programs, and I used a Latin software program and the word used is ψυχή which in it's original meaning means eternal soul. It's Abbreviation is a noun. Every program I used came to the same conclusion, therefore:



Is not true. You might have some out-dated software or software that does not give original meanings? I'm curious what program, or software you have so I can study it?? I am a computer tech this is what I do by nature...

Sorry to interrupt

Hi Atonement.

Sorry to contradict you. 'Nephesh' and 'spuche' are translated 'life' as well as soul'

Check out these important verses

Leviticus 17:11 The life(nephesh) is in the blood
DT 12:23 ..The life is in the blood

Genesis 2:7 And man became a living soul (nephesh)

 

[Atonement]

Well I went to college for two years studding in Greek and two years in Bible college. I have many programs I can cross reference your program with, I asked that you please tell which one you are using, so I can cross reference it??? Thanks in advance -Atone

 

[Atonement]

I understand that nephesh means life. I'm not denying that. But the Scripture quoted is using the word ψυχή, and there is a difference.. That's my point. I don't need to read those Scriptures you quoted, infact nephesh is used severial times throughout the Word, but not in the Scripture at hand. So I'm asking what program you or the others are getting this from???